Kayak vs Surfski: Epic V12 and Necky Chatham 17 comparison

[@rickdownunder8904]

Thanks for a great video and useful comparison which I totally agree with.I own an Epic V8 Pro club and a Riot edge 14.5 foot sit in.I bought both because they offer very different features.I paddle the ski through the week mainly on flat water and I am looking for speed and building my technique and fitness.Sundays I take out the sit in just to relax and it is so comfortable and stable.If I could only choose one as a beginner I would go for a stable surf ski such as the Epic V 7 or possibly the V8 which I had a chance to practice in before purchasing.It is best to go for stability initially as it is very hard to develop good technique if you are constantly trying to keep your balance.

[@_Brohan]

thanks for being one of the only accounts to upload kayak vids longer than 3 minutes lmao

[@speakingupforpointmolate4670]

It depends on the model of surf ski. You can start on a surf ski, Epic V5, which is very stable. It's not as long or narrow, but definitely stable. Also, the Epic V-8 is longer and narrower, but still quite stable.

[@Scootchels]

Agreed!

[@henrikkliebhan4874]

Thanks for that really nice look on these different boats !!

[@cynk956]

Thanks for the perfect comparison! I was just watching a show on Australian shark attacks. I have gone sea kayaking but never heard of surf skiing so this explained the difference perfectly!

[@futuresonex]

I'm pretty sure that I just finished watching that exact same show! I ended up at this video just trying to find out what a surf ski is. I've been kayaking a few times, but I'd never heard of a surf ski before.

[@tommyrq180]

Thus, fresh water!

[@BandiGetOffTheRoof]

Smart video. Good advice. I row a single, so most kayaks seem slow, but it's just a different animal. Boats are a series of compromises.

[@Scootchels]

BandB1111111 thanks and YES!!

[@jonlong3402]

Good video. You mentioned that surfskis don't have much rocker which isn't entirely true. Have you ever tried to paddle a ski with the rudder removed (or up in the case of an over the stern rudder)? They are very difficult to paddle straight with no rudder (over or under) in the water preventing the stern from coming around. Surfskis actually have quite a bit of rocker which is what makes them maneuverable on a wave face etc. You had a shot of various Epic boats toward the end and every one of the pictures shows rocker at both ends. There are quite a few other fast boats that really don't have much rocker but surfskis require it; the combination of the rocker and the deep under stern rudder plus the length, width etc. make these boats both fast and maneuverable. Surfskis are so much fun and you were right on the money about an adjustment period. Dawid Mocke; a phenomenal South African paddler says the MOST important thing you can do when you start paddling a ski is to get a boat you can paddle hard without much bracing. Getting a ski that is too tippy is quite common amongst newb paddlers (I bought one that was WAY too tippy) There are quite a few stable skis out there: Epic V5, V8, V10 or Stellar S14S, S16S, S18S and many more. They don't have to be elite level skis to be fast and fun. Thanks.

[@Scootchels]

Awesome comment. You are correct - over time, ski manufacturers have added more rocker to gain maneuverability on waves. Still, I always assumed the reason skis can’t be paddled w out a rudder is that the hull is rounded everywhere except the bow, which is shaped like a rudder. The bow “rudder” wants to be in the stern when it’s not overruled by the stern rudder. Love the idea of getting a more stable ski to start. Thanks!

[@kayakman3786]

An informational kayak/surfski comparison with a little highland pipes music thrown in to boot, good enough for me Scootchels. Love it!

[@Scootchels]

Richard S Costello - Ha! Thanks, Richard.

[@Bhamlunker]

I bought a V7 (plastic ski by epic, 17 feet)...paddled before this the traditional poly sea kayaks....stability is a tad less for sure...a V12 would be far less stable for a newB. The V7 has 40 or so liters of dry storage and a bunge stern deck so a little bit of capacity for a sort of "rec day paddle"...the ones like stellar S18S are closer in storage to sea kayaks, but they are not only composite. I have only paddled my V7 now a few times...I am really gonna enjoy it for fitness paddling AND at the beach. The new "entry level skis" such as the V5 and V7...I think for many people that are stable enough to "jump right in" no problem.....some people that are far more "top heavy" and never used 'skinnier boats" in the past may struggle.

[@emiliokasen4553]

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[@emiliokasen4553]

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[@emiliokasen4553]

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[@angelemmanuel287]

@Emilio Kasen happy to help :)

[@davehaggerty3405]

I tried an Epic V8 at Paddlefest Sanibel. Only fell off twice. I bought the Epic 18X Sport to replace my Necky Chatham 17. Finally settling on a Seda Glider 19. Because my interest was camping on distant islands. And touring the marked kayak trails around Ft Myers.

[@marcelodiflorio1493]

It's a hard choice. But there are good hybrid skis under 4.5 meters in length and wide enough to have stability for enjoyment and with a little added storage.

[@Scootchels]

Marcelo Di Florio - yes, and especially now that there is again a selection of quality plastic designs. Epic V7, Pyranha Octane, Nelo 510, etc. thanks for mentioning.

[@EricSonett]

Overstates the need for a roll. Yes it is faster to get back on a ski and one does not have to empty it but there are numerous techniques for emptying a sea kayak before one gets back in. There are also numerous techniques for re-entering a sea kayak. Additionally, a sit-inside offers better protection from the cold, wind, rain and snow. Yes for day trips in warmer weather, a ski has its advantages.

[@jonlong3402]

I hate to break it to you but there is no comparison between remounting a ski and re-entering a sea kayak. Remounting a ski is WAY faster every time. Even if you re-enter and roll a sea kayak you then have a cockpit 1/2 full of water and a skirt to put on while the ski is 1/2 a mile gone. Any boat that is narrower than about 19 " wide is almost impossible to roll as there is no deck to get your knees under. A practiced remount on a ski takes about 30 seconds.

[@ThePtree]

Excellent video, very informative. Thank you very much!!

[@Scootchels]

ThePtree - so glad you found it helpful

[@thetruthalwaysscary]

Excellent video.

[@chrishitchings8712]

I've got a Stealth Toura, 21" wide , it's great fun but it took me a long time to get used to it because I'm no athlete and my balance is rubbish 😂😂. My plan is to use it as a fast tourer.

[@Scootchels]

I feel your pain, Chris.

[@paulcollins4932]

Should of compared it with the plastic Epic V7

[@Scootchels]

Paul Collins -totally agree. Or the Pyranha, but I didn’t have either.

[@roamingrino]

Have you looked at the V5, V6, V7? They are much wider around 23 inches and the V6 has dry storage in the front and back. The V6 might be a closer comparison to the Necky Chatham 17. I can't find many reviews on these!

[@Scootchels]

Hey, Ryan. You are quite right: the v6 or even v8 would have been a more interesting comparison. I can't help you with any first-hand input on any except the 10 and 12.

[@Scootchels]

Hi, Ryan. Don’t know if you’ve picked up a boat yet but I just got a V7 Epic plastic boat in and I’ll review and compare as soon as it warms up.

[@TheAryedemented]

Unless you coming from K1, V12 is really not the ski you should start with. A good entry level skis are V8, bluefin or eze. Besides that, comparing surfski to a kayak is like comparing sport car to SUV.

[@Scootchels]

Arye Lerner - well said. I’ve run into a lot of people who feel confident in a performance kayak so jump onto a hot ski - me included. I simply want people to understand what’s involved. Yes - a v7 or v8 is a better step-up.

[@guittadabe5214]

Pretty much why I bought the Epic 18X. I'm not even thinking of "upgrading" to a Surfski from that, as I get as good an exercise on it, using the exact paddling motion as if I were on a Surfski (high angle, wing paddle). But even the 18X is very tippy in very rough water, requiring more "ballast" for stability. So I had to purchase another (cheaper, but more stable) kayak for such conditions.

[@Scootchels]

guitta Dabe - I love that idea of an 18x and a second beater boat. The 18x really does it all - tour volume, ski speed. Fast, but not as wicked fast as a full-blown race ski, stable, but not as stable as a classic tourer.

[@brankog7]

Good video, thanks man

[@mikecoglione1308]

Long and short of it is that the ski trades the stability of a sea kayak for more speed for both good and bad.

[@Scootchels]

Well said...and loses storage.

[@mikecoglione1308]

@@Scootchels I found the ski simply too tippy for me. I tried one that was supposed to be very novice friendly but it's a totally different animal than sea kayaking. There are more than a few sea kayaks left that are relatively fast and stable but this is going by the wayside. Kayaking in general is greatly declining because people want paddling for two extremes, either nonchalantly fishing, drinking beer and relaxing on the water but not exerting yourself much, or going balls to the wall fast. The third market of course are the SUP's which I find to be both tippy and slow. While there are many things you can do with a SUP, going places efficiently especially having a reserve against wind and waves and weather is not one of them. The "in between" market for people who want to go kind of fast, but don't want to give up the ability to relax seems to be vanishing. I am glad I found (sea kayaks) like the Stellar or Nelo brands which offer a range that is suited to varying skills levels but don't push it like crazy. To me the Ski is like a Ferrari, amazing car sure, but to really enjoy it you have to be going 10/10 all the time and if you're not into going top speed or driving very fast in an extreme way all the time they are frankly pretty lousy. Unless the reason you're going very slow is to have the windows rolled down to make sure lots of babes see you but that's another story....

[@Scootchels]

Mike Coglione - completely understand! It took almost a full season on a ski to feel confident enough to even try anything but the calmest conditions. I’m blown away by the guys who surf 8’ waves across ocean passes. I still like the ski for workout paddles but nothing beats a fast kayak. The “babe” factor stopped being a factor quite some time ago, but that’s another story....

[@mikecoglione1308]

@@Scootchels I know what you mean about the other story. Happily married with two now getting older kids we are super busy. Ski is an amazing community that I would love to be a part of but I don't have the time or resources right now. I am surprised to see that sea kayaks are falling in popularity as it's not that much harder than the sit on tops, and about as hard as SUP but much faster and gives more reserve against conditions than either. The difference is the ski is another huge jump in performance but unlike sea kayaking which gives a big performance bump for only a little more difficulty, the difficulty, effort and even expense of having to keep trading up to faster but less stable boats with ski is commensurately as huge. That said the paddlers on all the surfski/kayak/SUP company facebook pages are pretty attractive. Happy to say, minus the tights we almost look like that in our 40's except a few more wrinkles, a bit less hair but more than a few of them white and somewhat less muscle. But not much or any gut!

[@davidcampbell2661]

Take that epic on a 7 day non supported trip on Puget Sound maybe through some tidal races.

[@Scootchels]

No thanks! I’ll use my Eddyline for that trip. More storage, more sure-footed. On the flip side, take your tourer to paddle race or downwind group paddle out of Manasquan. Different tools for different jobs.

[@joshuaforester]

Check out my comparison of the Epic 18x Kayak versus the Epic V10 specifically for endurance paddling: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIvRioSchNJ7aq8

[@Scootchels]

Nice vid. Thanks!

[@joshuaforester]

@@Scootchels you are very welcome!

[@WACONimages]

Nice to see the difference, although a V5, V6 or V7 would make a better match I think. A V12 is pro-level and fully built for speed. Last Autumn we did an amazing surfski camp in Sardinia. You can check here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqjCeYaMqMqJaJY All video by myself, edit by the organisation Tom Beck

[@Scootchels]

WACONimages - trip looked fantastic!! Thanks for sharing. You comment came at an interesting time. I happen to have a V7 to throw up against an elite ski and a sea kayak

[@larsthorwald3338]

The distinction isn't always this clear. Like your ski, my sea kayak also has a round hull and 17" beam--Valley Rapier 20.

[@Scootchels]

Completely agree. There’s 100 different options between traditional kayak and hyper-ski where the lines blur. Epic and others make closed-deck boats using surfski bottom hulls and also skis for long-touring. Always loved the rapier: rare and cool.

[@WillN2Go1]

Based on a ridiculous premise after some years of kayaking I want to to go faster, but refused to consider surf skis (or Hawaiian outriggers) which is clearly wrong. So I first made a racing kayak, the Mystery, then I made an iqyax (aka baidarka) 16-17" beam. Both were for me, unstable. In the Mystery paddling out of Redondo Beach I was blindsided twice by a wave that reflects out of a notch where Torrance meets Palos Verde. It's a good design for an advance paddler, which I mostly am, but one always paying attention. I don't think anyone could balance the iqyax I made, which I expected as I built it. I still hoped and knew how to make outriggers. For both I made outriggers and I learned a lot, which might extend the use of surfskis. (My experience with surfskis is seeing edgy and nervous guys coming off the water in Marina Del Rey, near Mothers Beach.) First , in normal conditions, swell up to 5-6 feet outriggers don't really have to do much. (I never surfed with my outriggers, so they may not be fully operational), a good aggressive brace is far more than what most outriggers do most of the time. My first outriggers had double aluminum tubes, were about a meter long and sleek. But for my iqyax I made them height adjustable, single tube and they have roughly the shape of one of those 2.5 gallon water jugs. Short, stubby, tall, v-bottom. If I lean over hard to one side the pontoon will go into the water, but the kayak won't even turn in that direction. This surprised me. I can turn better dragging my paddle. The design does this:1. mostly just barely touches the water to support my instability.Everything in balance they are about an inch above the water. In normal paddling inside the breakwater, they touch a lot. 2. 99.99 percent of the time when they do touch the water its like the lightest paddle brace you can imagine. This is because they are about a meter out and they touch long before stability is an issue. 3. The height and volume are specifically designed to act as a paddle float for a reentry. What most people do not know is that once you fully sink any float it will still want to pop up, but once it's submerged no more force is required to move it anywhere in the water. If I made mini-outriggers just for balance, once they went under it would be like they weren't there and my kayak would roll over. I've never been able to sink one of these outriggers. 4. They look really dorky, but they work great. A kayak coach chatting with me insisted that I understand 'how stupid they look.' I thanked him; he was puzzled. He clearly didn't understand. 5. The single pole. There is really only one issue with a single outrigger pole, the float turning around the pole. All other issues are the same for any outrigger: is the arm is strong enough? are deck attachment, and float attachments strong enough? The big test would be of course how it performs in the surf and in very rough conditions. I'm now paddling a very stable touring kayak, but I miss the outriggers. I have on the drawing board a deplorable single outrigger that would swing around a pivot. Parked the float would be just in front of the rudder. I'm an old guy and I always go out solo, so this would be a reasonable safety measure. (Normally at this point I would just delete this. Instead I'll submit it. Anyone with the slightest interest or curiosity about this, let me know. All the kayak outriggers I've ever seen seem to completely misunderstand the concept. My outriggers might not work for people who paddle surfskis, but they'd be perfect for fishing kayaks. )

[@Scootchels]

WillN2Go1 thanks for the comments. I have no outrigger experience but I always thought it would be a great training device for surfskis to retrofit outriggers that could “fly” when balanced but catch the paddler when tipping. Sort of like raising the training wheels.

[@jimwortham8634]

Wow

[@caycug1]

I currently have a Pungo 120. I am looking for something faster, lighter, yet not with the small cockpit of a sea kayak. I am 6’1 and 170lbs. I kayak mostly on flat water reservoirs with occaisional wind and chop. What would you recommend? Does such a boat exist?

[@Scootchels]

Most sea kayaks have a pretty standard cockpit so if that doesn’t work your stuck with more of a sit on top. There are some performance sit on tops that aren’t so tippy as the ski we reviewed here. Check out Epic’s V5, V6, V7, V8. Stellar, Fenn, Pyranha and others have recreational sit on top surfski offerings as well. My favorite SOT touring kayak is the Cobra Expedition if you can find one used. There are other performance SOT sea kayaks but I can’t remember models at the moment.

[@caycug1]

@@Scootchels Thanks. Have you ever tried any solo canoes? Any that you would recommend?

[@Scootchels]

caycug1 - can’t help you there....

[@jonlong3402]

@@caycug1 I know this is two years ago but if you are sitll interested in solo canoes there are LOTS of great boats. Fast solo canoes include the Wenonah Prism or Voyager or the Northstar Magic or the Swift Cruiser 16.8 or Cruiser 14.8. There are more general purpose canoes as well like the Wenonah Wilderness or the Northstar Northwind Solo or the NS Trillium, Phoenix, or Firebird. Contact Rutabaga Paddlesports in Madison WI. They will steer you in the right direction.

[@wildsidemtb]

thats like comparing a Porsche and a VW Beetle two completely different craft

[@Scootchels]

Exactly. The video is about those differences. Thanks!

[@hunati31]

Interestingly enough VW Beetle was designed by Porsche.

[@ikkeennietjij]

It sure is, especially since many european sea kayaks are less wide. The thing that irritates me is when this guy says that a very tippy sit on surfski, without proper deck lines or hatches to store emergency stuff, is safer then a solid sit in sea kayak! Now I know that surfski's are much faster (if you master the technique of staying upright) and look far sexier then almost any sea kayak, but clearly much of the safety of a sea kayak is offered when going on bigger waters. And that is where the surfski is entering the zone where sport catamarans and kite surfers are doing there thing. Most of them are not even the slightest bit prepared for uncoming emergency's. I see it all around me; those fools playing around without proper buoyncy aids, flares, vhf's and so on... So would I like to own a sufski? Yes, and I think there great for small open water (would surely put hatches in and take stuff, though). Would I like to go fast? Sure, love it! But at the end of the day I want to come home to my wife and children and be able to say I had fun in a responsible manner...

[@Scootchels]

@@ikkeennietjij thanks, Kenny. I say the ski is safer b/c it’s easier to mount if you get disconnected from your craft. If you have a skirt and bombproof roll, the kayak offers some advantages. If you can’t roll - and most can’t - the kayak fills w water and the re-entry is hard. The ski won’t roll, but re-entry is simple and no pumping of water. Just open the bailer and paddle.

[@MerlinMan1579]

Surf lifesaving skis are pretty stable, the V12 looks too narrow to be enjoyable.

[@Gogalen789]

I'm with you on that one ,Merlin Man. I'm primarily a lake kayaker and when the wind kicks up pretty good I encounter lateral waves on some of the paths I travel in the water that hit me from the side so having some level of stability for the watercraft is nice. I suppose if you knew there was to be little or no wind on a certain day then the 17" width would be fine.

[@DeadHeadmusic69]

Ocean skis are much more stable than spec skis,specys you are sitting up on top,ocean skis you are basicly sitting on the bottom of the ski.much lower seating position.

[@DeadHeadmusic69]

I've had the v10L and currently a Fenn elite,they do take sum practice but once you get used to them,you would never go back to old spec skis.

[@gertfredrikson4584]

Anyone doing rough water paddling like tidalraces and rockhopping on surfskies

[@Scootchels]

Generically speaking, skis are too fragile and straight-line oriented for rock hopping, but i’d bet a v5 plastic ski would be the perfect craft for tide-race and gardens.

[@iviewthetube]

Rats, there is no such thing as an all purpose kayak.

[@Scootchels]

Haha! True - every craft is a compromise.

[@kenwebster5053]

Ridiculous comparing an ultralight race ski with an extremely heavy recreational or expodition kayak. It would be more reasonable to compare this race ski with an ultralight race kayak. Just remember that the race kayak rules have a minimum beam limit that is rather wider than a ski rules. A race kayak has the beam measurement point well above water line giving the race kayak a diamond looking shape. However the race kayak cross section will be parabolic to minimise the waterline beam possible within the measurement constraint. I think that if you do a valid comparison between racing ski and racing kayak of the same length, you will find they have a much more similar performance, though the kayaks competition rules are more restrictive than those of a race ski. so the kayak will still be somewhat disadvantaged. Alternatively you could compare a recreational ski with a recreational kayak & I don't mean a fishing kayak either, but one of similar waterline length.

[@Scootchels]

Comparing two boats designed for racing wasn’t the point of this video, but I would certainly enjoy seeing that comparison if you want to create that content for us.

[@kenwebster5053]

@@Scootchels Your comparison is still pointless & invalid, like comparing a formula 1 race car with a half track.

[@Scootchels]

@@kenwebster5053 Uh…..wrong. It would be like comparing a GT car with a street passenger car, which is a valid comparison. If ya don’t like it, don’t watch it. If you want a different comparison, go create it. Watching this and whining about it in a 3 paragraphs comment is the true definition of “pointless”. NEXT!

[@kenwebster5053]

@@Scootchels Sea kayaks are the most sea worthy small boat ever invented, capable of multi day Ocean crossings in adverse conditions. They were traditionally used in that way for trading voyages right around the Arctic Ocean. In the vehicle analogy, that definitely equates to an off road survival vehicle. Which is why I used that particular example. Your comparison is still pointless and meaningless. Because you chose to compare a specialist racing boat with a recreational one. Maybe compare a rec recreational ski or SUP with that kayak next time. There is something wrong if you don't get that point & repeating yourself does not strengthen your case. It just shows that you have no grounds to support your case. Say something different. But, whatever Dude.

[@DeadHeadmusic69]

Not a great comparison, a very would be the better option. Cool video none the less,🤙

[@Scootchels]

A very what?

[@DeadHeadmusic69]

@@Scootchels stupid auto correct.. Sorry, i meant a v8 would be a better comparison.

[@Scootchels]

@@DeadHeadmusic69 totally agree...or a faster ‘glass kayak

[@pbr2424]

A performance sea kayak would be a west side boat X par missle. I have two. 23 foot long 18 inches wide 32 pounds Kevlar. The west side boat will beat a lot of surf skis. Try comparing apples to apples. They make slow fat surf skis so your video doesn't make sense. Also at the Olympics they race kayaks. Try hanging with them on a surf ski. I've owned both you should be clearer if you are making a video. Google West Side Boat Shop Thunderbolt and watch a video and see what I mean. Thanks

[@Scootchels]

Please go back and listen to the first 30 seconds where I say “this is not a head to head shootout, but a look at surfskis and a comparison of the differences to a typical kayak. For people thinking of going to a surfski from a kayak, here are the differences”. I appreciate the West Side plug, but comparing an ultra-performance kayak to a ski doesn’t make my point, does it? Please watch the vid before commenting. Thanks.

[@d1427]

pbr- i thought this video was about sea boats- i haven't seen any race kayak competitions on the ocean yet... that would be interesting to watch: k1 vs surfski in downwind conditions...

[@spetsnatzlegion3366]

From someone who has actually seen surfskis wash-hang olympic (or at least international level) k1 paddlers, I’d definitely say it’s possible though the paddler in question was not going as fast as they did in their k1

[@DinoAlberini]

You can’t paddle a K1 as fast as a ski in anything rougher than half foot chop. And even then you’d have problems

[@PaddleDogC5]

Be prepared to be wet.

[@joro5748]

Sorry, but I definitely wouldn't call that a performance kayak.

[@Scootchels]

I agree. It’s perspective. If you’re paddling a 10ft barge it’s a rocket, but no, it’s not a high performance boat.

[@joro5748]

@@Scootchels Still, the points you make about the crucial differences are valid and important, thank you for them. I'd just rather call the kayak a prototypical one.

[@josealqueres]

You should have compared the sea kayak with an entry level ski to make the comparison more interesting. The way you did it makes no sense.

[@Scootchels]

José Marcelo Alquéres - thanks for the input! That happens to be the boats I owned, so it’s the comparison you got. I definitely think you should make that comparison video that you suggested. I’d watch it.

[@sanderschwerdt4649]

Comparar um surfski com um Kayak e pra neguinho sem noção. Nada a ver.