Scott Reacts to "A Game Developer's Rant on SBMM" - Dead by Daylight

[@mattp994]

"Am I the only person who gets variability?" "Am I the only person who isn't tunneled every game?" "Am I the only person who doesnt just get Seal Team SWF wvery game?" This is exactly how I feel when engaging with the DBD community online. Do DBD players have memory problems?

[@Doncroft1]

They gas light themselves constantly.

[@Unanalyzedfish]

It's a bias, where the worst games are the only one some people remember

[@reallyrellish]

​​@@UnanalyzedfishIt's a mixture between that and bad faith arguments. No one can fact check your personal experience so people exaggerate or make up whatever details they want.

[@Doncroft1]

@@Unanalyzedfish Negativity bias.

[@lainnislame]

this varies greatly on several factors. I can go 5-6 matches in a row getting tunneled, and then have others where the killer is trying to 12 hook. they dont have memory problems, it does happen. maybe not literally every game, but yea, it can happen for most of your matches. the game changes greatly depending on what time of day your playing, as well. its not secret 4am dbd is an experience in of itself. not to mention where your mmr is at can also affect the types of players you go against... personally, i get tunneled more when playing early morning than any other time bracket. weekends are brutal in general too.

[@invalidusername6158]

I didn't know Short Buff Muscular Men was a controversial topic.

[@Quarthelomew]

Yeah me neither! It’s pretty easy to make up your mind, either your gay or your a LOSER! 🫃

[@czms922]

No but Super Big Mad Men are

[@big_nick87]

I agree about liking meme videos more. I would rather watch Toeknee, farmer John and spooky loops than any of the comp players. Watching comp players dunk on killers with the same perks is boring

[@IsiliathPires]

watching comp players is boring

[@j0hnicide]

the "meme" vids are often over edited with obnoxious font and shit

[@j0hnicide]

​@@IsiliathPiresdbd players when people are good at the game

[@kakugowaii5854]

Farmer John started the Vile Scott meme, so that automatically makes him the best DbD content creator

[@legobatmanthevideogame3194]

@@j0hnicide no, it´s really boring, killers and survivors don´t interact in comp

[@danowen79]

The problem with DBD content creators is they see everything through the narrow prism of being a content creator and/or a player with 5K+ hours approaching burnout. The game is mostly played by console players in solo queue, who don’t stream it. And I’m sure BHVR are happy with how it’s going, by and large, or else it would be noticeable to them that players are dropping overall and they need to change something.

[@Reakt00r]

I agree, this is also why I feel SBMM is overall a good thing for the game but because content creators are mostly affected negatively by this (because they're mostly better than average, they would definitely win more on average if there would be no SBMM) you get this hivemind where select content creators complain how they're not winning enough. They having the biggest voices creates this negative stigma around it even though it will help average players not getting stomped as hard and as much, which, turns out, are most people playing the game and is a good thing for the game overall.

[@danowen79]

@@Reakt00r Yeah. I can see both sides of this argument. I think the balance is having a low MMR pool for beginners and then you get to play in the big pool without any matchmaking at a certain point. (Which is kind of how it’s working now anyway haha). It’s more about player mentality anyway, which you can’t change easily. A high MMR killer can still play for fun and chill out, but most don’t. A high MMR survivor is likely to be in solo queue and if they always play for fun with meme builds you get stomped because you have no control over who your teammates are and what the killer is playing like. I think the game mainly needs incentives for killer players to play in a style that’s more fun for everyone - and the anti-camping thing definitely helped there IMO.

[@SonicTheHedgehogDXZ]

​​@@ribdiddle Thats were i first heard it too and it made me not listen to anything CoD players say. The way SBMM is tackled there is so black and white, really burned my brain cells.

[@billcipher147]

4:18 It's sad, but simple. The reward is an ego-boost. A lot of the people playing this game (on either side by the way) get a kick out of dominating and humiliating the other side, and will do anything to get to that point. No matter how uneven they have to make the playing field, or how boring their play style and load-out is for themselves. All that matters is the self-validation at the end. It's also why these sorts of players tend to get super upset when things don't go their way for once. There's also the fact that the way this game is unfortunately designed lends itself to living out power fantasies - be it bullying a baby killer as a 4-man swf, or camping/tunneling out a bunch of uncoordinated solo-queue players as a high-tier killer. It is to put the opponent in a position where they are basically powerless, and some people revel in that. This is further supported by people who go out of their way to play as scummy as possible every single match, even if it means potentially not winning - because their goal is not to win, but quite simply to ruin the fun for others. You'd think I'd be exaggerating, but I've seen countless people on Steam who played exactly like that with over 100 pages of nothing but "-reps" (one guy had over 500 pages) on their profile who seem to be collecting them like badges of honor, with some even pointing that out on their description. Which very much implies they don't just occasionally sweat like that because they have to, but do it every single match since they enjoy it. Of course, this is by no means the average player, but I feel like DbD just attracts (and rewards) these sorts of people way more than most other games.

[@aquila519]

Spot on. That's not the average gamer on DBD but the way the game is right now, it absolutely attracts players like that and like you said even "rewards" them for playing a certain way.

[@c4llmeco4ch]

tl;dr 1. If you don't want to try, play worse and accept the Ls. 2. Nobody plays exactly at their MMR in every situation, leading to inherent variability across games. 3. There should definitely be a ranked+unranked mode to help people understand the type of game they are entering It is very difficult for me to take "SBMM bad" arguments in good faith. The idea that "No, I *definitely* don't care about stomping but I also want unbalanced games for some 'cadence' in my gameplay session" seems like people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to pick and choose when they "are forced" to try with no consequences whatsoever. If you genuinely don't care about trying to play optimally, then just...don't...? Your MMR will drop, and you'll find players who also don't care (or you can have a competitive game against while not trying). Then, when you decide you want to play well, you will climb back up and start playing against players around your normal level. The idea that someone is holding a proverbial gun to your head "making" you sweat is dumb, and I have no reason to believe good players don't argue for this just to dunk on new players. Further, the take that "if two or more players' MMR are exactly equal, the game will absolutely be competitive" is laughable for anyone who has played any competitive game for more than a day. Beyond the absolute highest echelons of optimized play, matchups (both character and playstyle) play as big-if not greater-a role as skill in determining competitiveness of a single game. To toss out a hypothetical: let's say that against 90% of the killers in this game, I have a 2200 MMR from ample game experience and extra time studying the killers. However, against Twins and Sadako-two killers I rarely ever see-I haven't quite learned how to deal with them, so I have closer to a 1500 MMR and maybe my total MMR is closer to 2k. If everyone in my lobby is exactly 2k MRR, but it turns out the killer is playing Sadako, are we going to have a highly competitive game? Probably not. I will probably struggle, playing more like a 1500, and we will lose. Everybody is like this. Nobody plays exactly at their MMR in every conceivable situation against every conceivable playstyle. Coconut's first game against Hens and Co that Otz commentated is a perfect example of this. Hens is obviously very good at DBD, but Coconut's insane camera movement and general playstyle threw off the whole team and they made massive blunders throughout the first match. Clearly, they played below their "normal" level. The second game, the survivors adapted, Coconut also made some blunders, and the survivors came out victorious. Were the skills between both sides massively uneven? Not really. Both sides had their ups and downs, both sides won a game, and they were all clearly high-skilled players. The Chess Match featured a similar situation: Team Eternal started off the game clearly less knowledgable about the Chess playstyle and struggled to break the 3-gen at first. They are exceptionally talented, though, adapted quickly, and played closer to their "optimal" levels by the end of the match. That being said, there should absolutely be two queues if for no other reason than clarity of intent. If I'm playing League, DotA, CounterStrike, Tekken, or any other game with some sort of ranked ladder and I queue into that ladder, there is an expectation that at the very least something is on the line and everyone involved is *probably* playing to win at least in part. Meanwhile, if people want to dick around in unranked, they can absolutely do so since there is nothing on the line except ego. You can try a new character, strategy, build, deck, control layout, etc., and nobody cares unless you force yourself to care. Regardless of how lenient the current MMR system is (which I completely agree on Scott's take that this might be one of the most lenient SBMM systems I am personally familiar with), having a sort of gentleman's agreement that "this is ranked, and you should be trying to win" versus "this is unranked, people are just trying things out" going into the match can help temper expectations accordingly.

[@johangodojolo8652]

Holy W take

[@frb5237]

Good points. Although "I don't know how hard the other side is going to try until five minutes into the match" is definitely part of the concern in DBD, I have doubts whether two separate queues will do anything to that. If the only real difference between "casual" and "ranked" is in name alone, I think most people will still try to win in casual, or that people just won't play ranked. Already in the game there isn't much incentive to win besides ego or unless winning is a means to an end to complete one of the more straight forward challenges. Also, casual couldn't have zero matchmaking, there'd have to be something. The game as it is right now is the casual gamemode. Sometimes you stomp, sometimes you get stomped, sometimes you have close games. There is no downside to losing, and only minor upside to winning. It just kicks the can down the road and the complaints become "why is everyone trying so hard in casual?"

[@ComradeMercy]

Absolutely love and agree with this take.

[@lesbeean3517]

I have been saying "take the L's and play how you want" for years. I don't get why people can't comprehend this

[@c4llmeco4ch]

@@frb5237 Completely fair. Even in games where tryharding is more widely accepted (LoL, DotA, etc.), you'll still have people first-time a character/strategy in ranked or have high-level players drop into casuals, pick their main, and curb stomp beginners. There is unfortunately not much that can be done to solve every situation, because to your point everyone uses ranked or unranked queued for different things. And I also agree that people will still try to win in casual play or troll in ranked. But at the end of the day, the current experience involves going in with whatever expectations you have for the game ("I think DBD is a party game", "I think DBD is competitive", or something in between) and somehow expecting that 4 other random people magically agree with you just because. Even if it doesn't solve every case, ensuring that at least the *average* person in the queue agrees on what's happening would be a massive step in the right direction from my perspective. Re "there should still be matchmaking in casual play": agreed, and I think the way to typically solve that is to have a ranked MMR and an unranked MMR. If you go as hard in unranked as you do in ranked, there won't be much of a difference in your experience between the queues. But if you use unranked as a tool to either decompress, learn, or otherwise expand your horizons, your unranked MMR will reflect this drop in aptitude while your ranked MMR remains unaffected.

[@IG33Z]

Dbd sorely lacks a distinct divide between the casual and the "ranked". You can make ranked more strict and casual less strict in mmr.

[@IG33Z]

Like not knowing in the slightest way if its going to be a sweatfest or a memefest. I genuinly think the game would be more fun if you could sorta gauge what was gonna happen when you clicked "casual"

[@Doncroft1]

People would still sweat in casual mode and throw in competitive.

[@williamcourtney3029]

​@@Doncroft1and? People still break laws despite laws being made. A separate and casual mode being made does the same thing as a law being made it sets the expectation for all participants.

[@slavajuri]

I don't want a DC queue and a tryhard queue. I'm happy with the current system where I only sometimes see these occurrences.

[@keys5595]

@@williamcourtney3029laws don’t necessarily set expectations in the same way as video games do. For breaking a law you can be punished which makes people less likely to break those laws. For playing sweaty in a non-sweaty game mode you face no repercussions at all. Making it wayyyy more likely for people to do

[@Reakt00r]

I really enjoy CoconutRTS's gameplay videos but he probably has the worst takes as a creator of any community that I know of. That, together with the way he talks as if what he says is the way the entire community sees it and making it sound as facts (even if he doesn't mean to) just makes me skip all his ''rant'' videos now, there's no way for me to take them serious.

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

Doesnt scott do the same thing? 😂

[@Fozes]

@@MrVIrginiaLUV Not at all. In almost every video, Scott says something like "I'm not the authority on this, it's just my opinion." Compare this to coconut making the insane claim that ONLY SWEAT VIDEOS GET VIEWS! THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY FEELS THIS WAY BECAUSE I SAID! It's fucking ridiculous, you're insane if you think they're at all comparable.

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

@@Fozes Did coconut say that, or was he reading from a comment by the dev? You know he's reading from the perspective of one of the devs, right?

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

@@Fozes Scott just spoke for DBD community though, no one wants comp in DBD? Bro, I swear he said that, but I could be wrong.

[@infamous5673]

Scott, otz, hens, and spooknjukes all have bad takes

[@jaida3377]

Playing in a goofy way is great in theory but usually not fun in practice. At least in solo queue, I feel pressure to play at my best for my teammates because I don’t know if they want to play to win or not. Or I’ll get a killer with a super strong build/killer or a super unfun killer/playstyle. On top of all that there’s the toxicity. Sometimes it feels like you have to walk on eggshells because if you piss off your opponent you’ll get bled out and humped for four minutes.

[@ass640]

The people who bleed you out for 4 minutes are the ones who are playing super sweaty and competitive and don't want you to have any fun. That's the point we're making, it all happens because people are stressed out and they lash out at casual players who are just having fun. They take it as an insult to them that you're not taking them as seriously as they take themselves in the game.

[@Rad_Roxxi_Music]

@@ass640 what I notice is that the players who bleed people out often are usually playing killers that are very bad (myers and freddy being the most common). I don't think it's that they're ultra-sweatlords who want to you to never have fun, they're just super stressed out and taking it out on anyone they can. imo they just need to step away from the game for a bit if they get that angry

[@Bridgetrollhaspizza]

Sometimes, and this is something that I have had happen on both sides, it's because the survivor is using an unhookable build, and keeps putting themselves where the killer can't get to a hook fast enough and they always wiggle out

[@CoOlKyUbI96]

@@Rad_Roxxi_Musicsounds like you’re speaking from your personal experience. In my own personal experience I have encountered killers who are clearly very skilled at the game and slug everyone within minutes of the match starting. Which isn’t inherently bad on its own. But then they just hover directly over survivors and wait for them to bleed out. Granted it doesn’t happen every game, but it does every now and then

[@254koloko]

Humped on survivors and proceeded to let a 4-man escape. Am I a memer or just toxic?

[@nickphaux]

Scott didn't use the soy pog face for the thumbnail.... 😢💔. Unsub. Reported 🤧💔

[@mogullll]

Crazy how people seem to always be in “sweaty lobbies” yet nobody ever admits to being the sweaty player Could it be that you’re actually evenly matched and it turns out you just don’t like the game when you’re not literally bullying people far worse than you? :0 :0 :0

[@sooz6092]

Many such cases

[@sooz6092]

@XiaoLing-pu9st Okay who the hell even plays singularity, to such an extent that they are P100 ? There's like 3 of them, you should try playing lottery with such luck because that's some incredible odds. Also it's a straight up lie because new players are in a protected bracket especially when you have 5H into the game.

[@felsics9441]

@XiaoLing-pu9stWas your next game against a p100 nurse or did you play against someone more your speed. DBD mmr doesn’t put you at the lowest mmr when you start playing (idk why), but it should lower over time if you keep losing.

[@starbreeze7249]

Tons of people act like this and people honestly believe them. I read a reddit post of someone who said they get tunneled "literally every game" They just leave the full story out and tell one part of it that fits their "argument" It's like expecting honest opinions from the Steam forums, people just have a bad game then rush to an outlet to whine in anger at that one bad game out of 10

[@smockytubers1188]

Gamers whining about having to sweat in every match are always little bitches. No exceptions.

[@Denichae]

I think part of why games in general, including DbD have gotten sweatier is cause of content creators/streamers or the prospect of streaming. I remember I saw a post on the subreddit where someone did statistics on perk/build usage and it positively correlated with big content creators making videos about said perks/builds. Streaming has only popularized the competitive mindset more and more over the years as it’s gotten bigger. I truly think that’s a large reason as to why games have gotten so much sweatier the last decade. Your point about people getting better and figuring more out about the game definitely is also a huge part of it, if not the biggest reason

[@Doncroft1]

Scott is bang on here. He highlights everything I disagreed with in Coconut's video. I see a ton of variation in my matches every day I play, and I don't see a decline in either players or content creators.

[@Definitelydusky]

SBMM will make any game more competitive. Remember the OG call of duty games? Up till about BO4 it was more or less no SBMM, and yeah some games were sweatier than others, but the majority of games you could just play casually. Same goes for DBD right now, you get your MMR up, almost every game will be sweaty.

[@WeskintimeASVAL679-89]

Every cod game had SBMM, it wasn’t until MW2019 did people suddenly start hate punching at their weight level or higher

[@vpawnvfianeh2663]

​​@@WeskintimeASVAL679-89SBMM was first realized until Advance Warface. SBMM wasn't as tight as it was today. It was very loose back in the day, and that's why we were able to use any gun we wanted and still have a good time, but that's dead now. Unless you use a competitive gun, you're not having gun.

[@Gothstartvyt]

It was glorious but it felt like there was a little sbmm at least I didn’t rot starr seeing people w gold & diamond guns until I got a few so I think that says something but at the same time it never felt like my lobbies were an upward slope of better players more like a big zig zag lol

[@Don11037]

​@@vpawnvfianeh2663^this

[@alwaysneutral2100]

@@vpawnvfianeh2663 this person is correct. SBMM didn't become as heavy handed until COD: AW. And then it got more refined after, this was also one of the times that "reverse boosting" (something more popular now than it was back in AW) became prominent during the new SBMM changes made for Advanced Warfare.

[@dawnmann7328]

I think sbmm is a necessary feature for games that fit the criteria of 1. Small team sizes 2. Games where characters can have different abilities or perks 3. Stakes to bad performance Something like COD or TF2 that often has a large amount of players in a server have less or no need for sbmm because it’s less often a single player can wipe the entire server, and there’s less pressure on every individual player subconsciously to preform on a larger team, especially when there’s less of a penalty to dying or screwing up, such as in dbd a lot of people roll their eyes at that one teammate that makes a bad decision or dies early, and in turn it also puts a lot of pressure on a killer to preform as the sole member of their side, but without sbmm it would have pretty low match quality and fun for either side due to skill gap between a small amount of players Games like Overwatch, DbD, Valorant, with higher stakes or resources shared between a team need sbmm at its core in my opinion for those reasons, there’s very little room for mistakes because each individual can have a massive impact on the outcome for either side. Another angle to look at it is how advanced one’s game knowledge/gamesense needs to be to keep up with other players, games with lower need for sbmm I think can thrive when the objectives and characters are simple and fun, TF2 has very simple objectives and low stakes, so you can have someone who’s new and someone who’s played for thousands of hours can have fun together because they are both trying to complete the same objective, without it being a large knowledge check difference with thinking about (and knowing, figuring out) what perks anybody on a team might be using, what order to complete objectives in, and being on the same page as everybody on their own team because at the end of the day they’re all trying to cap a point or push a cart

[@demifolk8940]

Yea Overwatch and DBD have a lot of skill you need, so they do need sbmm to a degree. Theres a big barrier to entry, this is the same for basically any moba as well. They all need a crazy amount of experience to understand well. And games like smite, which is a bit more niche, require the knowledge of mobas and the necessary mechanical skills to perform well. But mobas and overwatch are also way more competitive and they’re “symmetrical” games. As in, both sides have the same type and amount of resources. And the game is balanced generally, rather than having 2 completely different sides like DBD. So for me, i think dbd needs that leniency. Especially when it has so many RNG elements, which theyve tried to tone down, but its still there. Games that are truly competitive avoid RNG like the plague. Maps are entirely symmetrical, both teams have the same tools. So theoretically, whoever is better will win. You look at DBD, if you bring a hex totem it could be destroyed damn near immediately. Putting you at an immediate disadvantage, this is something that sbmm cant even account for its just pure RNG. Conversely, you can also get lucky and its the most hidden spot on an indoor map. DBD needs some level of openness to allow for more variance, as there are numerous elements that can cause you to have a bad time. It also has perks that completely counter or remove the effectiveness of other perks. And this is also pretty much RNG. In overwatch, if you being “countered” you can switch. In mobas, if you are getting killed by physical damage, you build physical defense. If the enemy team has too much cc, you build anti-cc items. Anti slow, anit crit. The enemy, likewise, can build items to play around what you do. DBD… cant do this. Or do anything close. Only a shift in playstyle which literally every game gives you the option to

[@Orthane]

I am actually an example of this not being true. I'm a P100 SM main, you would not believe how many of those goofy +rep messages I have because people actually enjoyed playing against me because I go out of my way to not tunnel, camp, slug, or most importantly, 3 gen. I literally did the impossible, I made some people have fun with a SM match. Every game, even if the Survivors are sweaty, I still just have fun, I chase whoever I see, I hard commit to chase instead of dropping because "uhm according to my calculations if I take a chase over 45 seconds long my generator progress will exceed my ability to effectively regress them" and I still get an average of 2 kills and around 8-10 hooks a game. People play sweaty because they want to win. It's as simple as that, you can take the most casual game, or even a single player game like Skyrim, guess what some people do in Skyrim? They use an exploit to give their gloves +105386% One Handed Damage because they want to steamroll things. If you aren't obsessed with winning, you won't get sweaty matches. Simple as that.

[@just3096]

im pretty similar as an experienced player i never try to tunnel camp slug etc. unless absolutely nesessary, i still get at least 2 or more sacrifices every game

[@MercLazarus]

SM main, opinion discarded, comment not read

[@SqrunkTrep]

The whole "MMR is ruining DbD" thing always felt like an enormous case of negativity bias at work to me, at least from what I've played over the years, it always felt like absolutely nothing changed between SBMM and rank-based matchmaking. I either get decent teams or players I should have absolutely never been matched with. Honestly I think that if BHVR were to never reveal that SBMM is even a thing, I don't think community would react as negatively as it has been since it's introduction.

[@Аку-ю7ф]

yea i have the exact opposite problem to what Coconut is talking about, instead of every game being super close and super balanced where both sides need to sweat to gain the tiniest edge over the other, i get NO balance and my games are either "4k at 5 gens" or "0 hooks 4 escapes" and nobody has fun because one side doesnt have to try and the other side doesnt stand a chance, i swear i get 10000 hours competetive players warming up for the next tournie in one game and then people trying the game for the first time in the next, frankly i'd love it if i could get some of those "stale" neutral games where both sides have a chance

[@strisselstudios3932]

Coconut is a professional yapper. Normally dont watch react content, but i wasn't going to watch his video anyway, so ill give you the view to hear your insights.

[@gamma626]

I'd never seen any of his videos until very recently, and the dude straight word vomits a lot of nonsense with a very distinct air of superiority and confidence. It's pretty crazy to watch him pretend that the only content that gets views is hardcore sweaty streaking when Ayrun and JRM exist.

[@chattychatotchannel]

@@gamma626 he did a twins video which was just straight up stealing all of lynxi's video when she's a smaller content creator all the while mispronouncing her name and it felt very scummy and disrespectful and left a bad taste in my mouth. She needs all the views and support she can get atm like she just got diagnosed with cancer and coconut didn't add anything to the discussion just literally showed her whole video like if you're gonna steal from a content creator at least bother to learn to pronounce her name first

[@iheartblock3792]

@@chattychatotchannelthe only good videos of his are the hatchet snipes, and there’s only so many times you can throw a hatchet before it gets repetitive. He’s a hack in everything else who says a lot of words with little substance behind them

[@liptonpipton4135]

Games become more sweatier cause people prefer winning over losing, before mmr playing was chiller because you were winning easily, and get stomp sometimes. Now when mmr in game, winning is harder and players adapt to it by bringing best items and perks

[@vladspellbinder]

14:25 I wasn't "bored of the game" I was "fed-up with the player base". While it was true that I wasn't getting face camping or tunneling Killer every, single, Survivor game I was getting them far too often, somewhere in the range of every third game but sometimes multiple in a row then going without having one for a handful of games then getting more and so on. And while I wasn't getting toxic Survivors every single match as Killer I was getting far too many people who would t-bag at dropped pallets or wait at the exit gate instead of leaving after they'd won or any other sorts of "bad manners" that I, personally, had problems with but I know other people, including Scott, don't have problems with. It just so happened that my problems with the game got worse when the new match-matching went live, but that is correlation not causation. That said I'm just going to have to disagree with you Scott, in that people can legit leave the game not because they "are bored" with it but because they feel it has become not-fun due to the changes made, be it new Perks or over present Killers or just their most common sort of opponent. Yes "getting bored" is a valid reason to stop playing but I think it is not fair to exclude other reasons out of hand. ...And then you say it's about content creators in particular. Welp, not going to erase all this that I typed up. 16:25 And yeah, this is another thing. Everyone has their own personal experiences with the game. You get a lot of variability while other people do not. I can only speak for my own experiences when I played and while it wasn't comp team after comp team after comp team when I played as Killer I'd more often than not have pretty good games with some good back and forth with the occasional easy ride or "unwinnable" match. As Survivor I more often than not had really bad games, either because of a camping slash tunneling killer or simply because I wasn't that skilled in the role and would be out matched while at the same time not be given the chance to improve because of the afore mentioned players that _didn't play the game_ and just sat watching the first person they cased get a spider hug. 24:04 He wasn't that it was. He was saying that people do it in _other_ game modes but _shouldn't_ be doing it in 'for fun' game mode. 26:40 Ranked, all the way, because there isn't a mode without M.M.R., or at least it's not one of the main game mods. Even if you can't see the rank does not mean it is not there. Once you know about M.M.R. you know you are being ranked, just not shown your rank. I DO agree with Scott that that unseen rank doesn't matter because it is not seen but just because we can't see it doesn't mean it is not there nor that some people will care about it. For some reason. Thanks for the video Scott.

[@dabest2evadoit718]

I feel like people who complain about SBMM just want to pub stomp noobs.

[@WeskintimeASVAL679-89]

Thats literally it.

[@deacon6221]

or hear me out. Some people are good at the game but don’t want a comp match every time they get off work and boot up a match!

[@iheartblock3792]

@@deacon6221I wish I got comp matches, most matches I get are stomps. I wish the matchmaking was better, not worse!

[@Ghostly_Cactus]

when he said DBD content creators focus on sweaty killstreaks and hardcore stuff i couldn't belive that he said that, I always see Otz and Spooky doing Meme builds

[@leesasuki]

and Ayrun always be like "I do unique pathing and oh no, killer got me, good chase, good chase"

[@clarkeemalarkee]

I just wish that sweaty killer gameplay required people to be good at the game. Tunneling/Camping allows people to play sweaty without learning macro gameplay, without learning loops, etc. If I got stomped by a player that was skilled, I’d love it. But stomped by a player that’s showing that you need 0 skill to win? That’s depressing. That’s why I like games like Valorant. I’m not going to get stomped by my opponent unless they are simply more skilled than I am at the game.

[@MikeOTR]

It's funny you put this out. Yesterday I was streaming and mind you, I don't play sweaty like at all. I'll go into my killer games not going for kills or hooks but for BP. That's my only goal. The team I went against beat me. I only got a 1k and I got destroyed by them, but then they started to make fun of me post game because I was streaming and I lost. Like bro, I don't care about winning. My title was literally 0 MMR, 0 hours, worse plays.

[@MikeOTR]

@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN you would be surprised. I played the game extremely badly and they talked crap. I got 1 kill. Some people can't be helped

[@sliceofspice6028]

​@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN No it happens a decent amount of time, streamers catch it worse too, especially if it's advertised.

[@absolithink1117]

@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYNidk, i had a survivor trash talk me once bcos i lost (it was like my fifth game of killer ever) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ some people are just rude

[@forkfuneral]

​@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN You probably don't play killer. People often talk shit simply because they beat you and then they want to bait your salt out

[@mouthwide0pen]

​@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN i once had a survivor go manic in endgame chat because i said "mate". some people are just fucking weird, man.

[@windego999]

I think part of the reason people play sweatier is because others talk about how sweaty people play to begin with. If I play killer and all I hear is how you HAVE to run pain res and the like to even last 1 minute in game, it's likely it might impact my view and make me think I HAVE to do the sweaty strats if I begin to lose too much.

[@Hotcheese1309]

9:27 I respectfully disagree with you. I get 1 normal match out of 30 sweaty tryhard matches. Especially if you are in EU

[@darksungwynevere8726]

"Everyone else plays sweaty so I have to play sweaty!" seems like a self fulfilling prophecy.

[@Gian_sas]

at least they don't actively sabotage the better players to even out the winrates like some other games...

[@xIronwafflexx]

I like how that dev is against sbmm and says separating high and low skill players is discrimination, and that they could add handicap settings to enable lower skilled players to compete with higher skilled players, effectively leveling the playing filed, is the whole point of sbmm. Your games are going to feel the same. It doesn't matter if it's a shooter and it's sweat vs sweat one clipping each other, or a sweat/skilled player vs a casual/lower skilled player that has an aim or damage multiplier that allows them to kill the skilled/sweat just as quickly as someone of their skill level.

[@digdoug5125]

He makes a few good points about individual player experience but the doom and gloom about players leaving over stressful matches reads as being an alarmist for clicks. I wish we could talk about improving the matchmaking system without turning it into a boogeyman. We cant just delete SBMM and go back to emblems now.

[@triggeredcripple8668]

Rainbow Six Siege recently attempted to solve the issue of high ranked players being in a separate "bubble" of play, for R6 it was allegedly because the top players only played against the same people all the time, and had no variability. This led to ranked 2.0, which was one of the worst decisions I've ever experienced in a competitive game. They basically did the same thing that DBD did with SBMM, hidden MMR, and meaningless ranks, except in a much more competitive game. Because of this, and the fact that the matchmaking sucks in general, it is very common to be an average level player (gold-emerald or so) and be put up against diamonds and champs. While rank is no longer used for matchmaking, there is certainly a correlation between somebody that gets to champion in a season, and being MUCH better than somebody that gets to gold or plat. The issue is that you can't artificially increase playerbase skill; if you create a situation in which the top 100 players no longer only play against people that aren't anywhere near the top 100, they're going to be playing against people that are not ready or wanting to play a match of that caliber. I'm glad the #2500 ranked player in the world isn't playing against his usual rivals, but I'm not THAT good at the game. It was a miserable experience for me and my friends, and while that's an extreme example, less absurd (but still unbelievable) matchups happen at least once almost every night we play. Attempting to perfectly control something like matchmaking in a game is impossible, and it usually ends up causing more harm than good. There's too many factors that change every single match, and in order to try to control them, whether it be to have perfectly balanced matchmaking, or to achieve some other goal like variability, you HAVE to harm some portion of the playerbase in some way. Obviously there needs to be matchmaking that should attempt to be balanced in theory. By this, I mean that, under plain circumstances, it is balanced. The most clear example I can think of is just having ranks that are used for matchmaking and can be seen by everybody. You and your opponent are both in diamond, and why you're in diamond is completely unknown and different from person to person (whether it be personal skill, or a player getting carried, etc.) , but if one of the ranks is wildly innaccurate, it will correct itself over time and players will settle into where they're "supposed" to be.

[@leesasuki]

In Malaysia or SEA in general, we constantly play against people that can hs you in an instant no matter how shit my performance is. SBMM or not, problem like this always present and with SBMM, at least my game slowly became more balance and I can actually have fun So, no, I do not like to go back to day of pub stomp (me stomping or not) and would love to fight people that is close to my rank

[@lordbumus6087]

9:32 Its not every game for sure but the last 10 times ive played about 4-5 of them have been 5 games in a row of me or someone in my friend group being tunneled/camped out very early on so we just stop playing dbd and do something else. Its not every game but does happen way too frequently.

[@Xbob42]

A 40 minute Scott react?! Is it my birthday?!

[@Idontknowwhat2type]

Thank you!!!!! No one ever talks about the opposite side of these “fun matches”. It’s drives me nuts. If you play to sweat that’s you. I don’t do it. I goof a lot. You don’t have a rank to justify the need to sweat. You may lose some (cool it’s a game. Get over it) but you don’t make the community feel like they are comp playing every match. If everyone comes in with general etiquette everyone will enjoy more of their games. Internal mercy rules, discouraging strats that 90% of people hate etc is how you solve the issue. Not letting 6k hour players jump into 500 hour players lobbies. I will also say that I notice survivors doing meme goofy builds while the more prominent killer mains usually do streaks. I think realizing that changes how you look at these criticisms and some KZbinrs opinions.

[@drunkdonkeydude]

When I'm killer, I tend to play stupid. Even if I'm losing, I'll nod, I'll spin, I'll try sub-optimal builds. I dont play killer often, and I tend to let people have an escape so I'm probably lower MMR. When I'm survivor, I try not to be a detriment to the team as a solo-queuer, but you can bet your bloodpoints I'm probably running a silly build, or a gimmick. I nod at everyone, crane my character's neck in stupid positions, even at the killer (apparently teabags became toxic taboo, so I avoid that) If I'm going against a team, or a killer, that is very sweaty, I just tend to dissociate mentally from the match and try to move on as quickly as possible. On the rare occasions I play with someone else, I might take the game a little more seriously, but even that has its limits.

[@Akixkisu]

Put a ladder in the game and people will believe there is nothing more important than climbing it. DBD implemented SBMM in a great way, wide skill range, and breathing room at the top and hidden to prevent ladder anxiety, a ranked mode would ruin the game. We don't want thst because the game is currently the best DBD we had so far.

[@Ritsu362]

Yeah, it’s better to have close matches and a few extreme matches than having mostly extreme where you get 9 hooks at 5 gens or get 0 hooks against swf pros

[@G1raya]

I just want a "entity sweet release" button when getting slugged at 5 gens for 4k, and maybe a few perk reworks. Too many of them are just terrible, not necessarily meta buffs but at the very least QoL, for example: crouch + wait for prompt -> pebble, I know this is probably so because Deadhard + pebble interactions but yeah.

[@PistolSlinginMothMan]

Yeah agreed, the game needs a dedicated perk focused patch every now and then. They keep adding more and more mediocre perks that just get tossed on the pile. A lot of perks can be saved with small number tweaks, or stipulations.

[@UnkemptSoldier]

Coconut just says words lmao. Man's never making any sense.

[@Westbrook__]

4:15 I don't get, what you don't get. DBD is inherently competitive. People enjoy winning... so evidently people will do what is best to win the match. Doesn't matter if you win something out of it or not. Especially since DBD doesn't have a ranked mode people will just try in the only mode that exists. This is literally a thing in every game. Hell even in COD where SBMM is arguably most talked about... people try their asses off lmfao and they get literally nothing out of it.

[@slavajuri]

The question is why DBD has become more competitive over time. There is a very wide perception it used to be a more casual experience prior to MMR (or some other event around the same time).

[@Logan-bo7nt]

@@slavajuripeople just got better at the game imo

[@theworldofmelvin4032]

There are definitely VAST differences between dbd during the day and dbd during the night

[@Doncroft1]

Didn't Scott's recent experiment show there were no significant differences?

[@theworldofmelvin4032]

@Doncroft1 doesn't say when the matches took place also one person's individual experience doesn't invalidate every single other person's

[@Doncroft1]

@@theworldofmelvin4032 It wasn't one person. Thousands participated in the polls. And I'm 90% certain time of day was one of the factors people were quizzed on. If I'm somehow misremembering, I apologize. It was in one of his recent videos.

[@ScottJund]

@@Doncroft1 no you are right, there was almost no difference in 3000 polled people.

[@Aquilenne]

@@Doncroft1 IIRC there was a pretty notable increase in the 2am-6am slot, the rest was mostly consistent

[@hirotohoashi]

Maybe for the "How fun was your game" score we give, each week they can tally up what your team and opponent put on average and give you extra bloodpoints or smt maybe a badge thing like they do in LoL?

[@0marcus]

i am depressed that the killer meta is so stale now. you could legit delete 90% of all killer perks and most killer players would not even notice any difference

[@jaymatsu2367]

Killer and survivors perks need more variety perks to make this so fun but not problematic

[@Antarctide]

The same goes for surv perks my dude.

[@0marcus]

it really does not. just test it out! you will find greater variety (which is not due to the good-heartedness of the survivors ofc, they just have more good stuff to choose from and more opportunity for goofy builds)@@Antarctide

[@numnaut1314]

What do you mean "now". We've always had a stale meta for both sides. Before this we had gen kick meta, Ruin with Undying, Old Ruin with Pop for killers. For survivors it was mostly old Dead Hard , DS, Borrowed Time and whichever perk that was good at the time, like Spine Chill, Circle of Healing, adrenaline, ect. It's always been stale it's just been the perks that has changed. That said I still need we need another perk overhaul, one that makes bad perks good and tone down the really good ones.

[@ausi6758]

PAIN RES, POP, PAIN RES, POP, PAIN RES, POP

[@DunoPriv]

Thank you Scott for this video. I had the same reaction watching Coconut's rant. You are either one of very few sober thinking people in the community or others are just farming "complain-content" becasue it gets views. Complaining can be justified but people are making stuff up for real.

[@slavajuri]

Hens: "I'm tired of playing against babies, MMR needs to be more strict!" Choy: "SBMM has ruined the game, every match feels the same now." OnePumpWillie (streaking with Disco-Nurse's-M&A-Thana): "Matchmaking is very very loose, that's why so many people DC." CoconutsRTS: "MMR is making games sweatier and sweatier." I'm amazed that all four of these players can take the game seriously in their own way and have such drastically different opinions on the matchmaking. It really does seem to be that some are stuck in a fabled past that's more a reflection of their own mental state than the game itself.

[@EvolvedDinosaur]

Another negative sensationalist video by coconut? Color me surprised!

[@ItchaBoi]

The guy annoys me, and I don't even know exactly why

[@bigdawgking8766]

Bro he stay spreading misinformation like this bro😭😭 he is just lying through his teeth for zero reason

[@Antarctide]

@@ItchaBoi His job is basically to be a professional negative Nancy pandering to a certain loud vocal minority of the game's community.

[@OtakuDevil]

I'm at 5:20 at the moment My Take is: The reason why people getting feeling like the overlying problem is SBMM in equated and they keep doing complete overhaul changes to the game; AKA: Killer, Perks, Core gameplay mechanics (Generator times/Regression/etc) along with Survivor healing Speeds, Survivor perks because they changes so much away from what It originally was both sides just feels more and more entitled/powerless each time so they get sweatier thinking the only way to win is just bringing strongest shit and baking in their sweat

[@Mazerwolf]

As a meh console player, the only thing thats killing the game is bad decisions like wasting an entire patch like with the twins “rework”

[@brewingtea1]

"Where's the catharsis?" over footage of 4 survivors escaping

[@wakeuplouie]

players banning maps or queueing only for specific maps would be SO GOOD

[@ritualunions]

This is what I don't understand about the MMR. Supposedly it creates situations where every game is sweaty and ever has to put in max effort but simultaneously people say it's easy to top out on MMR and there's no real categorization by skill. How can it be both?

[@THENIGHTMAREINC]

Like 70% of the perks are "If it's Tuesday and the 6th of the month with slightly cloudy weather, you get a 2% chance to unhook 1% of the time." 20% feel like what a perk should be. 10% are in every game on multiple survivors or basically mandatory for the killer. I don't feel like I see variance in that way. I have NEVER seen a chemical trap in the wild.

[@smokerthewhite]

i'm only a few minutes in, but i want to point out how tired the "everyone /has/ to play sweatier in the mmr system!" argument is. if we all agree that the higher your mmr goes, the less fun matches you get because it's all the harder you have to play to keep up with your opponents, then isn't your reward for doing so... an uptick in your invisible, impossible to track in-game "rank points" and harder matches? dead by daylight offers no reward for your mmr bracket, ever. so why not just play what you want, and sometimes lose? i've just had such a hard time hearing that whole "i /have/ to keep playing meta so i can climb the bracket to play meta more!" thing repeated so often

[@sliceofspice6028]

Because the game promotes the feeling of fun by winning the match. I don't mind losing matches but getting my ass blown out 3 games in a row just isn't fun, even with the mindset I'm just goofing around. A lot of times if you're running a fun meme build, in order for the build to work you still have to keep a winning momentum for some portion of the game, if you get your shit pushed in all game you don't even get to experience the fun of running your own build. It's almost like there's a restriction of enjoyment around your setup that requires you to be winning at some point in the game, which most times you have to really dial in and start trying to get going, which then takes away the "I'm just going to have fun" mentality. It's just a vicious cycle. Anyone who's focused on climbing the MMR ladder is likely going to sweat anyway, it's their own doing that made them not have fun

[@KtSuper]

​@sliceofspice6028 Yeah, if you have lowered your MMR 3 times and are still getting punked on your 4th game, that's a skill issue. Genuinely, it makes the games easier, the more you lose. I can't remember a time I outright lost 3 times in a row.

[@smokerthewhite]

@@sliceofspice6028 i think your point is a good one, but honestly i think it would do a lot of players well to look less at the result of the match and more about the leadup to that point. i have had many 7-8 hook games in my time playing dbd which result in a 4 man out -- going by the current system, landslide defeats. however, a lot of the time i still have fun in the individual interactions within the match, and that can oftentimes be a result of playing specifically around some silly thing that i'm trying to make happen with a weird perk setup. i completely agree that when it feels like you're not even a player in the match, dbd can be uniquely frustrating in a way almost no other game can be, for a million reasons that can vary from match to match.

[@Angel_Flash]

because if i'm playing for fun and the survivors aren't playing for fun, then i'm not having fun nor winning. and the cherry on top is when they act toxic too. you get all the stress with none of the relief. it's a net negative dopamine reaction for your brain.

[@Angel_Flash]

having to purposefully derank so i can have fun games again is just a failure of the matchmaking system

[@georgetownsend1479]

Wow, not sure if this was just me but there were so many bad and objectively wrong points made in Coconut's video that I just couldn't finish this. It was so frustrating to watch!! I think maybe there was an overall valid observation that the game can be really frustrating to a lot of players, but so many of his reasons were just incorrect...

[@browut644]

What was objectively wrong about it, because I agreed with almost all of his points.

[@ricksanchez6766]

@@browut644although it was more of the developers point, I personally don’t want to be put in a matchmaking system where I’m guaranteed to go against a weak team and a super strong team, I wouldn’t enjoy either one. I’d enjoy the one in the middle, where it’s actually evenly matched.

[@mjodreaper8481]

@@ricksanchez6766 You are in denial then, man. There is psychological evidence for why It's more fun to have both.

[@Rad_Roxxi_Music]

@@ricksanchez6766 that's what players THINK they want... until they actually experience it. Having every match be 1 to 1 evenly matched is guaranteed to be super stressful, since you are required to play at absolute peak performance just to break even. Mostly in the middle matches are good. Like say your arbitrary skill level number is 50. Matching only in a range of 45 and 55, every match is going to feel exactly the same while being too tight and too stressful , and matching in a range of 25 and 75 is far too loose and makes the arbitrary skill level number mostly pointless. However, matching in a range of 35 to 65 means you'll have a good mix of matches where you're not stomping but you're having an easier time, while still getting the tight ultra-sweaty tooth and nails matches, and getting matches where you're the underdog and fighting an uphill battle (and getting actual opportunities to learn and improve by playing against some better than you)

[@sethington719]

Yeah, it reminds me of what HealthyGamer has said in one of this more recent videos. Logic can be used to make any argument, including bad ones. He’s making logical statements, but that doesn’t mean they are true. They make sense, but they are not what’s really going on. As someone who used to play Destiny 2 pvp when there was no SBMM, it is ALWAYS better for a game with any sort of skill curve to match people of skill rather than not. Getting destroyed is never fun, and destroying others may be fun for people with insecurities about their own skills, but is very very boring for everyone adjusted to what they can do.

[@T.BG822]

I, personally, think the map offerings should just be switched to realm/map bans. I think that fits better lore-wise, I think it'd make matchmaking a nicer experience for both sides (even with 4 offerings on one side and one on the other), and I think it'd be useful to the devs if they decided to pay attention to which maps got banned the most. I also think it's not a bad idea to look into offerings to ban certain killers and perks from your cue for survivors and killers respectively - not as an actual change, but as limited-time alternate queues so the devs could more accurately suss out community feelings on outliers in their data, given that un-stratified data is most of their decision-making foundation.

[@Cole7845]

The current version of SBMM we have right now is god damn awful, yeah it has variability sure but it's so boring and unfair most of the times it's like endless cutscene, one match = you stomp baby killer , very next match you got sweaty killer with full meta with baby survs on your team and ofc you gonna lose, next match or match after you got killer with like 800hrs to stomp again and so on. Most matches you are getting baby survs in team against the sweaty killer with full meta which is awful OR you get good teammates against baby killer who will get 1 hook stage and probably delete the game afterwards and who is it good for? It is unhealthy for the game and unfair, MM should have variability I agree but when it's that loose and random it's just trash.

[@unoriginalcontent1514]

27:10 what do you mean its unranked, just because you cant see your rank doesnt mean its unranked. There is a whole mmr system in place that are basicaly ranks in other games. The way the devs implemented it is horrible but it doesnt mean its unranked

[@WeskintimeASVAL679-89]

PVP gamers when they have to punch at their weight level or higher. (Dbd’s SBMM doesn’t work though).

[@Antarctide]

It doesn't work because it can't work. The nature of the game and playerbase prevents it from working.

[@WeskintimeASVAL679-89]

@@Antarctide It needs to account for other stuff like gens done, perks used, offering used, etc

[@MistarZtv]

The content creation point he brought up is in bad faith, cause the content you see is very heavily skewed by the algorithm and what you interact with. i still get mostly shit and build videos on mines or commentary videos like this.

[@professorwatt7344]

9:50 I feel like you are confusing a sweaty game for a game where someone tunnels. You can have a seriously hard game without the killer tunneling, or without survivors going absolutely sicko mode against a trapper. I’d say that playing both sides I probably have a hard fought match that ends in draw more than I have a game where I just lose or win. A draw being when 2 survivors escape and 2 are killed and there wasn’t any tunneling or camping just both sides brought the absolute best things and if one side brought anything slightly worse it’d be a stomp. Thats the point of pointing out how hard those games are. I find these games more fun than the ones where it’s a stomp one way or another.

[@CeltaHeaven]

I know its none of my business but you mentioned the bacteria overgrowth issue you have. I have a friend that has it as well and at a time he was on the verge of commiting harakiri, he tried ketogenic diet and it improved so much for him he doesnt feel generally bad anymore. It's understandable to be an expensive kind of diet but it did wonders to him, despite being really hard to get used to. IDK if its a issue to you but just wanna help. Also, good takes.

[@MathisGries]

16:25 I also experience an absolute rollercoaster in terms of matchmaking quality, baby survivors and sweaty players are thrown at me interchangeably. I just wish I knew whether a lobby was closely matched or a clown show

[@rileyp1506]

people would focus on actual issues if the "hidden mmr" wasn't hidden. it's not that it's there it's that they can't control it

[@sockinvaders]

My issue with SBMM is the lack of a competitive spirit among solos. Back when there was a clear win condition and visible ranks, we all had something to play for. There was a sense or pride getting to red ranks. And once you hit R1, it was so easy to drop rank. You had to perform well to stay there. Today, when youre a solo, you know your 'team' couldnt give 2 craps about playing well. They have no issue quitting or dying on hook. They won't make saves, they wont sweat. The issue they had was figuring out how to set win and loss conditions. But for 5+ years ive had the answer: the numher or survivors who escape your match dictates everyones mmr win or loss. 2 die and 2 survive is a tiny mmr bump for suvivors, 3 out is a big bump for survivors, 1 is loss for survivors. With this system, the individual is less important than the group. Solos will bodyblock and risk their lives. And players can take the hook to help others escape. Truly the perfect system. Killers already had the perfect rank system - based on kills.

[@spamandsazon]

Gotta disagree with you on one point. SBMM is a form of ranking. You can't see your SBMM values, but they still exist and they are still used for matching players (even if the argument is it's not accurate or it's easy to bias it through your own actions). True unranked matchmaking means people are blindly queued with no quantifiable inputs to tune the resulting matchup.

[@noah.2B]

3:55 How is it possible for you to not know why that is? It's not about the reward. It's about mitigating frustration. That's all. If the other side does something really frustrating to you that you know you could've completely mitigated if you ran one of these sweatier perks, but you didn't run it because you were trying to do something fun instead, your first thought will always be "god fucking damn it, i knew i should've run that perk" If that happens several times, or you lose because of it, you get to the lobby and feel shitty, you don't want that to happen again, you run the perk. The prospect negative emotion in the future can cause that exact same negative emotion in the present. The opposite is not true for positive emotion. That and negative experiences are roughly 7x more impactful than positive ones, etc etc like come on, you know this stuff.

[@gainfulfaun2570]

I think you just need to stop being so sensitive about loosing a game, it’s dbd get over it and play how you want

[@noah.2B]

​@@gainfulfaun2570 you presume much. reread what i wrote in an passive/conversational tone of voice, and note that my descriptors are survivor/killer agnostic. i'm not getting mad, i don't have a side, i don't even play the game anymore. i'm a game dev myself, i just like talking about game design and understanding what motivates player behavior.

[@bakerboy8821]

I sure hope Scott uploads more content on his main channel but I still enjoy what NotScottJund is putting out

[@bakerboy8821]

@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN i was teasing because scott said not too long ago he doesn’t have much to discuss

[@lingling4891]

stomping the other team is not a relief at all if we go with the heartbeat analogy: it's just boring as hell and shitty for the people on the recieving end. "Oh wow how relieving, I just took a lollipop from a toddler" said no one ever.

[@itsmetimohthy]

only way i will ever watch a CoconutRTS video is when someone else is responding to them LMAO

[@mkmalloy9988]

Yeah. He's a tough watch.

[@Deny399]

First version of SBMM was actually what they are talking about. Super strict and most people hated it, queue times hell too. Current version is kinda similar to rank system, not so much, but there is definetly a random aspect.

[@mjodreaper8481]

I don't feel a random aspect, I feel high MMR that I don't have.

[@HazurdosDBD]

Thing is, they fixed what wasn’t broken. The game went hella more comp when we introduced mmr solely because of how matchmaking was changed to this system. If we want a more “rank based” matchmaking system, why fine-tune it “like” old matchmaking when we could just fucking use the old matchmaking system? The games never seen as high a play count than BEFORE MMR was introduced…

[@Doncroft1]

My matches have a ton of variation. Baby survivors all the way to Seal Team 6.

[@Antarctide]

SBMM has never been strict. Except during those short periods of time where they kept testing different ones each day.

[@Deny399]

@@Antarctide Dowsey waited like an hour just to get a tournament team, because he did a huge win streak with Twins. Match making that lets you wait so long seems really strict.

[@JakeobE]

4:15 I think grades and pipping does result in a lot more sweaty games, but even then, too many killers and SWF teams take it too seriously and result in boring games for both sides due to perks and playstyles. For the most part, my games are chill in the "highest" MMR bracket.

[@heliox3460]

I personally would like the emblem ranking system to determine matchmaking.

[@vibewithme2318]

When I logged on to call of duty back in the day. I was totally prepared to get absolutely slammed or to drop a nuke and it was fun. Now , EVERY SINGLE GAME I feel like I'm in a fuckin professional match

[@ChaseJonas75]

Eh, I don’t really like either slamming or getting slammed in games. I don’t like going against players who feel like they have no chance against me, and I definitely don’t like when it feels like I have no chance.

[@RedNayl]

Ok, then play casually. If you lose then your SBMM score lowers, and eventually it'll lower to a point where you can win even when playing casually. Where's the issue?

[@brunosouza3326]

​@@RedNayl"just lose 4head" smurfinf is not a solution, his mmr will lower for a while but it will go back up again.

[@vibewithme2318]

@@RedNayl tons of issues but I have a feeling that we look at this topic completely different so GG's.

[@kekehuehue]

This is because you're a tryhard. But it's not socially "cool" to play to win in your social circles, and thus need to concoct a narrative where you're the victim. Scott's community, in general, mocks people who say they enjoy playing to win, so there's social pressure to pretend you don't care about it. In other communities, like tru3's, it's the opposite.

[@adi_prime-6]

Scott i really love you for sharing your opinion somehow you are always so on point whenever i disagreed with you, after a video i knew better thanks to you

[@dianan2152]

Finally someone who says what I think. I feel like everyone is complaining about sbmm, tunelling, caming and slugging all the time, and my experience is not like that at all. It's rare for me to see those, and my games vary between easy and relaxed to challenging a lot. Getting tired of the game is just normal, and if people play sweaty it's for their ego.

[@distortedriolu4618]

This whole video made my brain turn off? Am just gonna go smack things in Darktide, have a good day everyone x3

[@gegethedog]

real af

[@AvengingN00b]

I don't think the Halo dev guy was complaining about MMR in other games, but complaining about the dumb shit on that article, so the whole thing is dumb. Coco is just regurgitating what he hears and not actually thinking about it, if it's true or not, if it makes sense or not. People that play this game play it for thousands of focking hours, of course they're gonna burn out, and also people just want to stomp, not for the game to be fair, remember that if you are one of those people that has fun when you stomp, the other side didn't have any fun probably

[@ActuallyRenard]

That's why I only play random builds, sometimes they are so bad that it's actually funny.

[@ThePhantomSquee]

I'd be interested to see map/killer bans implemented. IDV has a system in place where once you've reached a certain rank, in the lobby it will ask the survivors to vote on a killer ban for the match. Wouldn't work in DBD as-is for obvious reasons, but you could probably set up something based on that.

[@MeepFromSpongebob]

Long ass comment here but...I think the reason DBD has gotten sweatier over the years is that the game is too simple for its own good. There are not enough complex mechanics that allow skill expression for players. The difference of min-maxing between the highest level of play and an above average player is no where NEAR the level of gap that other games like overwatch or apex legends have. The reason this is important is you want player skill to determine the outcome of a match, less RNG, less perks or add ons doing the work for you. The game has outdated mechanics and an overreliance of perks to put in ways to play differently rather then game mechanics that allow these plays. Perks play the game for you and get insane value. I don't think it is just the community has gotten better, we have learned what IS better and how to abuse broken builds that essentially play the game for you in many ways. DBD needs a mechanical rework from the ground up. It needs about 70% less perks and they need to be less impactful overall. You do this and make the gameplay especially for survivor, more engaging and skillful, and you introduce more complex chase mechanics outside of pallets, and windows. This will never happen but I dont think DBD is ever going to get to a point again where people are not min-maxxing the shit out of OP builds until the base core mechanics are drastically changed.

[@aflyingstarly5535]

Most of my games are a sweat fest being taking a break from it because of that. I can play a game here and there.

[@MrCole62195]

The problem with skill based matchmaking, is that it ISNT. Its interaction based matchmaking. The studies show mediocre to bad matches drive people to play more. So they lock you in with perpetually terrible games. They all denied using EAs fornula, but i know deep down online mstchmaking has only gotten worse since its development. I refuse to believe that these corporations didnt unanimously agree to implement that garbo

[@sliceofspice6028]

Im not a developer and my only "experience" of balancing and matchmaking is through games ive played myself, but I had a thought I wanted to throw out and see what others peoples opinions or critiques are, good and bad. If the SBMM being removed causes a scenario where new players are going to get stomped frequently and discourage them from playing, but higher skilled players get burnt out from a restricted MMR matchmaking causing those stressful matches, is there a middle ground that could be used? Something like, making beginners up to a certain MMR cap be matched with a more restrictive range, but after a certain MMR cap that range begins expanding to a wider range to allow for a better variety for more skilled players? Example could be: "If your MMR is 100 or less, you get paired with players within 5 points of your listed level, so if your MMR is 50, your range is 45-55. But if your MMR is between 101-200 you have a 10 point MMR range, example : Your MMR is 150, your matchmaking range is 140-160." Just spitballing here, but was curious to get thoughts about a more "fluid" or developing MMR skill system.❤

[@leesasuki]

You solved some of the problem for those sweathy high mmr players that can't take any L, but now you ruining people that just want to have fun. I would love to play a close game and lose, saying ggwp at the end, than seeing a 160 MMR join my 140 MMR, clearly stomping my whole team cause i'm solo queueing, then get to next game and experience the same thing someone above you complain the exact same thing in r6 ranked 2.0

[@shaunbarber2325]

14:00 is dbd difficulty a zero-sum game? I don't think so.

[@themr_wilson]

There isn't even a chart for the variability in matches I get in DBD. Like you said, one game will be SWF Team 6, next are babies, and everything in between in any given match

[@aMissingPerson_]

The "variability" is based off how many players in your MMR are available at that exact time, which in and of itself varies.

[@xLWxPhantom]

The community got new players as time went on, more specifically more players who care more to win than the game's release which when being a streamer and such, the audience tends to follow suit because of watching their favorite players, and learning how to play the game at higher levels.

[@giantsweet1472]

CoconutRTS cherry picked a few examples of win streak content and said "this is the most popular" without any real stats.

[@kotaisded]

I agree with your thoughts here, so much so that I don’t even think it’s an opinion, I just think you’re right as my experience has been the same. Idk what my mmr is but i do know i get a good mix of players that are better, worse and just as good as me. Now here is my take on why so many people don’t see things this way: As you said people prefer winning over losing, so the losses tend to stick in your mind more than the wins. Couple that with the fact that most people that play dbd, most people being kids and young adults that aren’t very far removed from being a kid, are used to getting what they want these days so when that happens it’s no big deal but when they don’t get what they want it is a big deal and what ensues is what we’ve been seeing for the past however many years, the inability or unwillingness to perceive the variability that is present in the games matchmaking due to ego.

[@calebshepard6923]

1000 killstreak would honestly be so much more impressive than a 1000 winstreak. There’s so many stealth perks, anti slug/tunnel perks, and the hatch.

[@erragonsen5447]

I think the reason why you have an incredible amount of variability in your games is because you are good enough to deal with all levels of skill within the softcap decently. Let's say that most plaerss will stay around the softcap or just raise their mmr slightly above it, and they will mostlikely experience way more equall or harder games than games that are a bit easier. If you decide the mmr past the soft cap into 10 parts for example with 1 being very close to the soft cap and 10 being the furthest away from it. So if you are a player at around 2 or 3 you are more just as likely to match into players from 4 to 10 as you are to match with players from 1 to 2. That means that 80% of your games are likely to be harder to play or balanced. Since you are probably at around 5 or likely higher, your chances of running into a game that is harder to win are much slimmer

[@WeaponXwastaken]

I mean the difference is max was talking about a ranked system. im pretty sure he talked about it at the beginning right? sbmm is an objective bad, in every game. if you want to match people evenly it needs to be ranked. it has no place in casual games/casual game modes. The only possible variation of "sbmm" that makes sense to me in dbd is if they somehow give your loadout a "power rating" and you are matched via your intentions (i.e meta builds vs meta builds, meme builds vs meme builds, starter perks vs starter perks). But even that could be abused. Honestly the problem with sbmm is it creates inorganic situations that force the player behavior to shift a certain direction. If i just queue up and chill, and my natural level of play puts me in games that i either get smashed or have easy games, with the occasional hard fought game. Then I wont change, that is the experience people want from casual games/game modes. If you try to put me with people who ARE my skill level, eventually if the system is good enough, the variability of the games becomes less and less. I dont agree with coconut that its every game or the experience is fully homogenous but the variability does lessen and that makes things both more stale and more DIFFICULT. Since the number of stomps goes down, and the number of hard fought games goes up, i must adapt to this environment. And the only way to do that is to stop chilling, and try harder. Which ruins the essence of the game for many. I do believe alot of people have quit dbd over time because they accidentally got corralled into a place where they started trying way harder than they ever wanted to, and what they enjoyed about the game was lost.

[@Danaile1]

I'm surprised Coconut's video did not release on first of april

[@felsics9441]

This whole argument is so dumb. If you don’t wanna play sweaty, then just DON’T SWEAT. Let your mmr lower and chill out.

[@misteral9045]

3:30 The psychology of skill level is that the closer matched, the more competitive. You will play hardest against an equal because there is the greatest uncertainty of the outcome (50/50). You also play hardest against someone who is familiar to you, not on a personal level, but in style of play (you're not a pro or a noob, you're an average player like me). When there's no hope for victory or loss depending on the side, people experiment to try to "make a game out of it." Pro killers goof off and try backpack slugging against noob survivors, pro survivors pet the pig on their way out, and everyone has a good time with chainsaw only Billy. With any matchmaking system, if the matching is "too good" the games can get stale because the stakes are the same every time. This is a fundamental flaw when any set of ideals is carried to theoretical completion, and the only way to "fairly" facilitate unbalaced games is to have no matchmaking system at all. People eventually detect intentional chaos or randomness. People do in fact play sweatier over time, because they're bored. 5:00 No, the more developed the player body is, does not correlate with more competitive play. When the optimization creates a satisfying play experience, people will mod and microanalyze the game for further optimization. Speedruns are a great example of this. The DBD equivalent is Billies, Huntresses, Singularities, perfecting their craft of playing that killer. All killers have some depth to them and can be loved, but a few stand out for having infinite fun potential. 10:00 Scott you missed the point, there are killers who make the decision to tunnel every round, or survivors who make the decision to escape every round at any cost (screw the team), and that is indeed placing yourself in a highly competitive but narrow box of playing that will have attitude effects over time. 11:00 Otz is by far the largest DBD content creator and all of the information and guides he provides is competitively minded, even showcasing underpowered or off meta perks/builds/strats to "make them work", as in win with them. All of the other creators you mentioned are competitive tournament players, who make memes in a competitive context. Scott what are you smoking. 12:00 Wannabe ricegum is also smoking, having community cups allows for the non-tournament playerbase to get an opportunity for competition without creating competition in the casual ladder. 13:55 Ok good Scott, I'm glad you're laughing because that indeed doesn't make any sense, it's just not what matchmaking systems do. It's what we want from them, but they just don't work like that. 16:00-20:00 A dim person reacting to a dim person. 21:00 Let's play a game. You and I stand on a scale. Whoever is on the bottom when the scales are tipped loses. The scales are tipped when there is enough weight on both or one plates to tip the whole thing, and the difference between plates is large enough. You may create any object of any weight you want on your scale, but you have to be able to pick it up and move it to put it on my scale. I cannot create anything, but I can magically move any object of any weight. It possible for both of us to lose but only one of us to win (if there was some mechanic in DBD where the killer could fight the entity or something, rhen we could both win by being on the same scale), and we can both draw by doing nothing, though you have the advantage in that case. A perfectly balanced game isn't boring, look at Go. I can't watch the rest of this.

[@Lascivar]

The Community Cup wasn't just broken up "after 3 weeks", there's been 8 Community Cup matches officially endorsed by BHVR, they're on Battlefy which is also where the first matching was put together in Nov 2022. You're more of a casual player so it's not really something you'd be looking for in the first place, but I am glad you see variability in your matches.

[@axelvidal752]

He’s a casual player? As a content creator he uses DBD to pay his bills. Hes the most removed from “casual” that you’ll see. Better than average at both roles with deep knowledge on the game. What is your point?

[@Lascivar]

@@axelvidal752 He's not a comp player, the alternative is casual player, that doesn't detract from his skill level. The point is that since he isn't a comp player, he of course isn't going to know there was more official BHVR endorsed tournaments because why would he be looking for them? .. What was your point exactly?

[@jonson116]

34:30 I would love if they changed map offerings to map ban offerings

[@onatgomceli6950]

Call me crazy but I think this coconut bro just wants to stomp baby megs every game.

[@DulfyBee]

Adding "aggressively anti-true" to my vocabulary from now on

[@DragonKingSkye]

"That's just not true" - Source from both Scott and the video he's watching: Trust me bro