"Why More People Tunnel" - Scott Live Reacts - Dead by Daylight

[@UEENavy]

On the BBQ and chili stacks subject, I honestly felt much MUCH better getting 4 stacks and losing than current no stacks and losing. It was a sort of side quest that felt really good achieving imo. Same goes for we're gonna live forever stacks as survivor. I really hope they bring back something similar on both sides.

[@brunosouza3326]

this is the reason i like using "grim embrace" and "no way out". I recommend those perks if you want that feeling of completion.

[@UEENavy]

@@brunosouza3326 I do enjoy that perk exactly for that reason but They need something that you can work towards and feel good when you get it like BBQ or WGLF stacks that adds something outside of the current game like bloodpoints and maybe even some kind of buff ingame on top.

[@TrueCarthaginian]

It should be brought back but as basekit for both sides and not tied to a perk.

[@brunosouza3326]

@@Black_chinese_monster its pretty rare to not find all survivors when youre actively searching for them tho. Its still a weak perk 45s is usually just one chase but it still feels nice to get the stacks, wich is why i recommended it.

[@Random_Commentor_On_That_Video]

idk i felt shackled to BBQ. like if i wasn't running it im wasting time. im not getting bew perks i want for fun builds on whatever killer ect. the difference in BP gained was very very high

[@monsters2312]

100% especially as a new player who doesn’t have every perk unlocked BBQ was basically base kit for me and the points were more important than getting kills.

[@monsters2312]

Hell I’m not even good at Survivor but I would use BBQ to get points for survivors and get better perks LOL

[@Deadgye]

Yep I would avoid playing killers I hadn't unlocked bbq on yet.

[@LilHaze117]

Aaahhhhhh they don't understand its about the points. You have the voice of the many right now, please inform them

[@Doncroft1]

BBQ was basekit for me my first 500 hours. Course bloodpoints are a lot easier to get and buy a lot more now than they used to.

[@takeyourheart1]

Yup I ran BBQ on every single killer in every single match because I wanted the BP.

[@king_slimy8859]

Giga chads throwing the entire match to get bbq was pretty common

[@stevenpearce7727]

would def throw not to tunnel/get 4 stacks. surprised no one ever gives noobie hatch anymore always give the baby dwight hatch.

[@Doncroft1]

I was guilty of that many times. 4 man escape? Ah well, at least I got my BBQ stacks.

[@NameIsDoc]

BBQ was basically winning. If you got BBQ you got enough points that even when stomped you're not set back

[@MrxD-cg5xs]

I did that regularly. If I had 3 BBQ stacks I almost devloped a tunnelvision on the guy I didn't hook yet. It had another side benefit though: losing but having all 4 stacks cushioned your fall, meaning it made losing more bearable because you had this small victory to be happy about. With the removal of the stacks, this cushion is no longer there, meaning a loss always hits you at full force. But BHVR had to keep their precious Bloodpoint """Economy""" in mind, we can't have it that they reduce the grind in meaningful ways after all :)

[@steelemerald300]

@@MrxD-cg5xs u do realize that they juristically reduced the grind right

[@MrAudisek]

BBQ: YES! Playing Killer for me was just a way how to quickly get lots of BP. And the best way to do that was to rapidly queue in the evening, get 4 stacks and have the game end no matter if it's a win or loss. Extending the game to a crazy long duration by protecting a 3-gen etc. was just a waste of time when you wanted the most bloodpoints per hour.

[@itsmetimohthy]

that part

[@Nope_Nope-]

When I started playing I was so bad, (normal for new players). I thought it was because I didn’t have good perks but truth was that I was just bad. The fact that I wasn’t winning games much made me divert my focus to the perk that was getting me the blood points I thought I needed to win games. I focused on just getting 4 stacks as my win and that was enough for me to not feel bad about losing. It changed my focus and I became a better killer player quicker than I thought because I wasn’t focused on perks to win me the game or camping and tunneling. I took chases and got good at them abecause I didn’t just ignore that one cracked survivor that would run me for 4 gens while his teammates couldn’t last one gen themselves. My chase mechanics got really good and my macro gameplay got better over time learning from mistakes. I think this was why bbq was so good because it rewarded this play style in more ways than one, and it’s a huge loss for new players even if bloodpoints are more accessible now then when we had good bbq

[@ofsushi8666]

I really dislike that they removed the BP incentives for BBQ and WGLF. I play almost exclusively survivor, so when I play killer and get destroyed, I still felt okay because I managed to complete my own mini objective, which was the 4 BBQ stacks for extra BP. Same thing for survivor, even if a game is completely lost (or soon to be lost), I still felt good because I could still achieve my own mini objective for WGLF.

[@matteoschmasanovski4656]

nice for you but not everyone want only "points" and its fine that bbq havent stacks anymore, ik what bhvr want to do they dosent want perks shold be giving extra bp,. and if everyone says: "bbq no longer stacks so tunnel the killers" either you haven't played dbd before or you have no idea, the only reason the killers didn't do hardcore tunnel is because DS was feared

[@Metroid1310]

@@matteoschmasanovski4656 Please read out comments before you hit enter to make sure they don't come off like the ramblings of a madman; Additionally, please try to stay on-topic. It's hard to tell, but I'm pretty sure you got way off-base from ofsushi's comment. He said he didn't like what they did, not that it was bad, and never mentioned tunneling or DS.

[@Doncroft1]

Nowadays I have tons of cakes and get the BP bonus for playing a needed role. When I got started, BBQ carried my penniless butt.

[@takeyourheart1]

@@matteoschmasanovski4656 What even is English? But really what exactly was the problem with incentivizing killers to hook every survivor at least once? It was a much more effective anti-tunnel perk than most anything else because it GAVE the killer something for NOT tunneling instead of trying to punish them for tunneling. MYC has a similar effect but BBQ was much more ubiquitous and the extra BP was a much better incentive because it’s something you can use outside the match. Taking away the BP part was just stupid.

[@dakota9821]

"nice for you but not everyone want only "points"" Why do you think you're special? "I don't need the extra points so who cares that it was removed!!" You're not the only person that plays the game dumba**. Most players DO want more points. Stop pretending to be smart.@@matteoschmasanovski4656

[@Splonton]

Here's how tunneling typically goes in most scenarios: 1. Guy goes to unhook 2. Killer uses stbfl to down the unhooker 3. Killer doesn't hook unhooker yet 4. Killer goes after unhooked person (there's very little down time between downing the unhooker and going for the unhooked guy) 5. Killer downs the unhooked guy 6. Killer hooks the unhooked guy 7. Now the killer can hook the unhooker (if he isn't already picked up, but the point was to hooked the unhooked guy, not him)

[@mjlavellan4768]

yeah pretty much. stbfl makes using off the record a bit worse and not everyone brings it. ds wont give u much distance and its hardly run on survivor so its just free downs. not to mention stbfl got an indirect buff when they made that big killer buff patch

[@bagelbomber4834]

But his point is where are you getting your stacks. You need 8 hits to make it useful so how are you doing that if you're tunneling one guy.

[@galactichasyoutube775]

@@bagelbomber4834 save the beat for last does not need 8 stacks to be useful

[@Splonton]

@@bagelbomber4834 at the end of that interaction you'll have 6 stacks at least unless the obsession was the one unhooking (and because of the basic attack buff, 6 stacks of stbfl is as fast as 8 stacks used to be)

[@keganroark1526]

Regardless. The time it takes him to hit the unhooker leaves the other guy more than enough time to get far enough away from the pain res hook. If they are a potato and he manages to still hit him really soon then with the bt endurance they won’t get far but still as long as they run in a straight line the killer will have to hook elsewhere. Also to be right there for the tunnel they basically have to camp as well which leaves the reassurance issue and then tunneling isn’t any better because they can’t tunnel someone still on hook for an extended duration while teammates bang out gens. So it’s no longer time efficient at that point. Too many contradictions imo

[@ChannelYumYum]

I'd like to add that Dead Hard was different too and it was very easy to combine a free hit from BT, with DH + DS for a massive amount of time stalled for being tunneled, which scared a lot of killers into not tunneling. Unbreakable was also commonly run with DS, so no matter what, the killer would lose a ton of pressure by tunneling. Now that synergy isn't really there anymore (killers don't respect DS), DH can't be used while in deep wound, unless you run DS, which we know is really questionable over other perks, and you have our current situation where anti-tunneling is pretty weak, making it appealing to killers as it's an easier way to win the match.

[@Bubbashammer]

I don’t think tunnelling will ever stop until ds gets buffed cause that was the biggest deter from tunnelling we have ever had in the game and it worked

[@BecketTheHymnist]

Yes! Also the Iron Will nerf makes it harder to hide from the killer when you're still injured from getting off the hook now. The meta shake up DID make tunneling way easier, and Scott is right that it's more about how survivor changed than it is about how killer changed. The killer changes did make it a bit better, but man those survivor nerfs really hurt.

[@ChannelYumYum]

@@BecketTheHymnist Yeah, Iron Will was really big in situations like Scott mentioned where you give the unhooked person time to run away while you hook the unhooker. Often times they would just vanish for me and I couldn't find them for a while.

[@LilHaze117]

Well put. Tunnelling was always heavy, but it was a basically worldwide known thing that you down a survivor and leave them for a minute on the floor. Now, I don't know if that's actually a healthy way to play but thats extreme respect given unanimously to a perk that doesn't even see plays anymore.

[@taragnor]

@@Bubbashammer Honestly I think the easiest way to stop tunneling is just to say no death until 5th hook (total hooks not individual) in the game. So if you want to focus one guy while hooking nobody else, you have to hook him 5 times, then you're left with 3 other survivors each with 0 hooks.

[@NotElusivePanda]

It would be nice to see chat in these live discussion videos

[@ScottJund]

noted for the future!

[@TehSlice360]

I posted Mike Ehrmantrout ascii a lot, I agree it is essential

[@familyski2108]

@@ScottJund the problem with chat is that you never know what they write, maybe some troll might put an among us cock or something which you might not want, so maybe chat with a delay to make sure that the mods remove the unwanted messages. Idk just might be something you need to look for

[@lunnefisk4344]

the mike ascii is crucial to my scott experience

[@dimonckov]

Like react andy?) (Scott will reach his final form)

[@Maledictator]

I would love to see Scott and Otzdarva talk about this in person because I think they have slightly different ideas about the term "tunneling". It seems like for Scott, tunneling is ignoring everything else in the game in order to hunt down a specific survivor while for Otz it seems like tunneling is targeting a specific survivor as a priority but also exerting as much pressure as possible if another opportunity arises.

[@Red_XIII_]

I would say Scott’s definition is more along the lines of tunneling otz is like you said just working in order of importance I do the same I keep track of who’s on what hook number because it’s necessary if you want to win you can’t just randomly run around and hunt whoever unless you want to get your time wasted and lose gems but the exception to that is if you find two survivors injure both but only chase one because they’re the weaker link

[@DDX1944]

I would literally throw matches to get 4 stacks, sure tunneling still existed and was prevalent, but a lot of ppl really wanted bloodpoints over sweating for the 4k

[@xeticus5435]

I have never cared about bloodpoints. I only played for the 4k. If I 4k enough I would get plenty of bloodpoints.

[@themadmanescaped1]

​@@xeticus5435when you care more about unlocking stuff faster and getting good add-ons in the web then you are more incentivized to stack BBQ then tunnel IMO

[@xeticus5435]

@@themadmanescaped1 I didn't care about getting stuff faster or getting addons. If I play enough I would get them. I only played to 4k.

[@themadmanescaped1]

@@xeticus5435 eh... I mean if you got time like a streamer to waste an entire day on DbD then BBQ might not matter but for me BBQ was a huge help. I actually got discouraged from playing because extra BP was gone.

[@xeticus5435]

@@themadmanescaped1 People really loved the extra BP and would go overboard for it. I never cared for it and tried not using it as I wanted to avoid aura perks. I stuck with perks like bloodhound and strider, less obvious means of tracking. People were always prepared for BBQ and people never understood how they could never lose me when I was using Bloodhound.

[@Coulroperation]

I didn't play killer a lot back then, but when I did it was typically because I needed bloodpoints and BBQ was the easiest method in the game to get them quickly. Quite literally playing killer was just BBQ BP farming.

[@mitchsz]

True. Right now the only incentive for me to play killer are archive missions and dailies.

[@Kezsora]

@@mitchsz or playing Wesker and partaking in the single most fun thing you can do in DbD

[@beforegrim]

4:35 no i 100% prioritized 4 stacks over winning every time

[@iPyroNigma]

100% I only tunneled by mistake, I always sought my 4 stacks before trying to win a game.

[@nerdrocker89]

Agreed

[@ScottJund]

why does everyone always assume those are related? who says you cant tunnel the shit out of someone and still get 4 stacks?

[@beforegrim]

@@ScottJund im not saying its impossible, im just saying i didnt really care about winning and if i didnt have my stacks i would try my absolute hardest to get them even if it missed me out on one or two kills

[@Leaf__22]

People are making it sound like getting 4 individual hooks is something that's hard to achieve

[@Fasumbra]

BBQ & Chili made a Killer's base goal in the game 4 Hooks instead of 4 Kills. It was so much easier to not be frustrated by losing when you could potentially still get 40k+ bloodpoints even if they all escape.

[@SmokkinBudz284]

I think he was more talking about soft tunneling not literally find 1 person and drill them and ignore everyone else I think with that build he was more talking about people that start the game spreading pressure but realize gen’s might be going to fast and there gonna loose if they don’t start tunneling someone out that’s how I’m interpreting this

[@Dizzifying1]

Precisely this.

[@arcarc2663]

I mean, he made a whole video called something like "How to win as killer" and he almost literally says "If you want at least two kills, tunnel someone, even if it takes 5 gens, and then down someone else and camp the hook." And if you want 3 kills, then camp and tunnel someone immediately in hopes that the rest of the team will throw trying to save them. The only reason not to tunnel, supposedly, is because that survivor might be good, so try chasing someone else too to check which of the two is weaker before you focus them out.

[@hicks1748]

Scott can only think in binaries he’s not going to understand a comment like this

[@benebersole3038]

@@arcarc2663 for 3 kills he specifically reccomends NOT tunnelling one person. he reccomends switching between hooking the 2 same people to stay effecient.

[@arcarc2663]

I do believe one thing that has dramatically changed is that items are more common now because of the bloodweb, BP changes, and especially prestige changes, especially for newer players who used to have their entire inventory erased each prestige. At the same time, though, the most broken and obnoxious add-ons for killer are also much more common. Which of survivor or killer benefits more depends on the specific killer. I still say that the grade/rank change is the biggest driver, with DS a close second. Staying at Iri 1 was bragging rights, but you would struggle to do that if you straight tunneled people out immediately. Skill, then, was dragging out games while staying in a winning position, not 4King off 6 hooks, or people DCing because they were being facecamped. Yes, people still played that way, but the game chastised you for it, and do it enough, and you get kicked out of the top MMR, so no more bragging rights to your audience or other people. Your status badge was taken away. Now though? It's all just kills, and so many streamers are preaching that you NEED to play for 4K every single time, regardless of anything else.

[@MrAudisek]

That's weird, I'm getting way fewer items now. In the past I could stay at level 50 and get a couple medkits or medkit charges addons per bloodweb. And now I can enjoy only one level 50 bloodweb and then I'm forced to go back to level 1 where I practically get near-zero yellow and green medkits + medkit addons, until maybe level 35+.

[@sapphicseas0451]

I'm glad to see someone else who sees this. Map offerings and items are much more common now in my experience as both roles

[@espalorp3286]

The longer the game has been out, the more items people have. It's just math. They've also completely changed the prestige system to never get rid of items. So new players never lose their items unless they are killed, which is less likely if you bring an item to begin with. Especially, a stronger item. For players that have already gotten every killer and survivor prestiged or have everything they want, you can run addons or items almost every single game and be able to afford more. Or you just swap the one you're running out of for another equally strong item. Why ever go into a match unable to heal yourself?

[@MoistChickenLegs]

Hard agree here on the grade/rank change. There is no longer anything that drives players to learn the nuances. Now you can just tunnel and never hit an actual wall where your wins start gradually getting you into games you can't handle. The only way for me to enjoy killer now is to play builds that are totally counter to the killer metas.

[@zizirose6312]

About the BBQ thing, I was the type of person who prioritized getting 4 stacks over getting kills. Bloodpoints felt better than victory.

[@SecondDraft]

4:30 Actually... yes! This was me. I found that a lot of the time (this might've just been a skill issue), if I played for kills... I would come up... short... I might get frustrated or upset and I felt I needed to set my own goal, my own objective. I was literally playing a different game. I would be sweaty as FRICK getting those BBQ stacks. THOSE were what mattered. If I got zero kills but 4 stacks? I was happy. Double bloodpoints, baby! Seeing that number go up was what it was about! But toss in a survivor pudding? I was lovin' it! My entire gameplay, mentality and builds centered on BBQ and those gorgeous stacks! I could play and get zero kills but still feel like I won in my own game and soon after, I got better and better and I was 4king most my games even after I stopped being sweaty once I got my 4 stacks. My favorite part about seeing someone DC was "Welp, I hooked em so I got my stack." and would be salty if they DCed before I got the stack. I just... feel lost without it. Heart's not really in it now. Got a picture on my desk of BBQ with 4 stacks and sadly reminisce about the good times now and then. I would gleefully revert DS to the 5 second stun if it meant BBQ and WGLF could have their stacks back.

[@theshpee1214]

I don't think scott was saying that people like you don't exist, he's saying that MOST killers don't want BBQ stacks more than a win.

[@SecondDraft]

@@theshpee1214 I would have to say that he's accurate. I imagine that people like me are a minority when it comes to bbq stacks vs. a win. However, that's not what Otz said either. Otz didn't say most killers want bbq stacks over a win, Otz said there are "a lot". Which is harder to define than "most". Most means majority, a lot can be just about anything depending on what you compare "a lot" to. A lot can be an absolute truckload if you're comparing against the player base or it can be a handful if you only compare it to the player pool that actually uses BBQ and since anything I could say in this would be anecdotal, the only thing I can really do to support anybody's viewpoint here is by lining up and giving roll call. "Say here if you prefer BBQ stacks over a win." Here!

[@HalcyonRemnant]

I think STBFL re: tunneling is more in regard to playing against teams where you have survivors taking hits for each other, even if it slows you down slightly at the time it makes it much harder for them to stall a tunnel as the game progresses, pretty rare to see survivors throw the obsession at you intelligently too

[@ProWrestlingPsychology101]

A 50 minute video of Scott tunneling 👀👀😅

[@fearofchicke]

Yeah, Scott says he wants killers to tunnel at 6:07

[@vault6242]

Vile Scott

[@mosshivenetwork117]

A bit too vile.

[@AlbyWesk]

Definitely taking your advice and tunneling more. Thanks scott 😇

[@TheKitsuneBlue]

Absolutely, the entire video he's just like "Oh if you kill one person you AUTO-WIN, 100% of the time" and I'm like "Damn son, I'm sold hook me up!" He tries to copium with some "You'll never get better at the game" but when every game I get outed by people who teabag and force me to push them out the exit gates when I play nice, I just do not fucking care what some KZbinr thinks will make me a "better" player. They've gotta die.

[@Fasumbra]

@@TheKitsuneBlue Of all Survivor behaviors, the refusal to just leave the fucking game when the gate is already open and they are standing in it is by far the most annoying. Like holy shit, I didn't tunnel any of you and I'm not running CoB+Eruption, give me the respect as a human being to let me lose with dignity.

[@burgaoburger]

yall take the game way too seriously

[@iAmPimmiCue]

@@Fasumbra I mean when I played I stayed behind just in case I can try and get 1 last save. Most aren't doing it just annoy you fragile killers

[@kelp4951]

@@TheKitsuneBluethis is so embarrassing lmao

[@GrandBlueCosmic]

Honestly Lucky Break is good but it is super dependent on map and position of when it activates. And it usually gets you that one escape then the killer usually is aware. It gets more value when paired with other things like Bite the Bullet which I will say I love that combo.

[@blazeknight4120]

I like this format of Scott Jund discussion videos.

[@MadieNevermind]

I will say with NOED, I think it is still good enough to get the initial pressure in the end game. Sometimes all you need is the one down to hook someone further into the map away from the gates and you can snowball, even if the totem is cleansed.

[@LilHaze117]

Facts. Killers act like they can't get kills when you can literally stick at it and 4k in the endgame even if everyone was alive. I don't even use gen perks. Is Discordance a gen perk? I use that all the time but still, most of the time survivors kill survivors, if you solo q enough then you know lol

[@jsj0520]

I would love more of these longer live discussions

[@hxpeful_demxn]

This is a nice live discussion format. Keep doing these, Scott 👍🏼

[@banbaji]

I think you're forgetting something super important: The massive amount of healing in the game. Medkits are super cheap, boons, dead hard, off the record etc. If you play as a nice guy, then you have to deal with 30+ health states (4 survivors, 3 hook states, 2 health states plus all the bonus healing and dead hards). BUT If you tunnel, it could potentially be as few as 4 health states to tunnel 1 guy out. After that, it's a snowball effect where they have less and less time to heal. That's why many killers naturally tunnel, they see it as more efficient.

[@MTG_Viking]

Really smart approach - looking for the reason for tunneling: Because it's good and efficient. So to end tunneling you need to make it not that way.

[@agreatoldone8902]

If I had an endgame build I always just felt better knowing "ok I gotta try really hard cause I only got 1 or 2 perks but if I do well in the match the last ones won't matter and if I do bad they'll be there to help me". Idk if anyone else thought like that but I did

[@squadcar25]

Late comment but around 4:27 you express doubt that BBQ & Chili was used more for Bloodpoints than it was for victory. And I get that, the more invested players definitely used it when appropriate but as someone who back then still needed a lot of Bloodpoints (and returning to the game almost 6 years later needs a lot more) I was always running it for the bonus Bloodpoints. Back in 2017-2018 before I stopped playing, I was adamant that We're Gonna Live Forever was the best survivor perk and that BBQ & Chili was the best killer perk simply to help you unlock more perks for all your characters on either side. It was a bit of a meme I ran with but I also was serious that getting 50-100% more BP every game was increasingly more valuable the less time you had in the game. I did also fairly mention that gameplay wise it wasn't optimal (well BBQ definitely could be) but it'd help you progress faster. I know it's anecdotal but I was a genuine advocate for using it early. I even joked about how they nerfed David's best perk when I finally reinstalled this game and someone was like yeah Dead Hard is a bit different and I joked, "Who cares about Dead Hard? Where's my bloodpoints? I got new perks to unlock." I have a feeling some other players who wanted to "finish" the grind of teachables and having every perk at 3 also felt this way, no way for me to really know how common that actually was though. Most people cared about having a satisfying game, which I do too, but dangit "number go up." Anyway, love your videos and streams throughout the years though I rarely say anything lol. You're one of the best!

[@jackpot-ksa6872]

Scott can you please next time if you may increase the volume for the video that you react to. Your volume is perfect

[@Ozymandias21]

Am I wrong in thinking the first ds nerf also saw an increase in camping and tunneling? I seem to recall when there was no obsession in a match killers knew there was no ds so it was changed to always have an obsession.

[@kaib6998]

OG DS didn't even have anything to do with tunneling. If you were the obsession you could use it on your very first down, and if were not the obsession you had to wiggle to (I think) 25% and then immediately use it.

[@mouthwide0pen]

@@kaib6998 A lot of people don't know that DS has been nerfed like 50 times. "First DS Nerf" is pretty clearly referring to the one that made DS turn off if you did something that wasnt conducive to getting the killer off youe ass.

[@TheDeenoh]

@@kaib6998 we both know they're not talking about the first ever need that required you to be hooked first. They provided enough context clues. There's no need to be pedantic

[@kaib6998]

@@TheDeenoh I think I didn't articulate my point very well, I was never trying to be pedantic or anything. My comment was rather meant as some kind of fun fact for people who didn't play back then, to emphasize how well balanced dbd is in it's current state compared to old dbd (It was a mess, but somehow a lovable mess). I'm sorry if I came off rude, I did understand what the original commenter said and actually I wasn't even right. According to the wiki the very first version of DS didn't require you to be the obsession, anyone could use it instantly, but I don't remember that phase at all tbh. The change to make it an obsession perk only came a few months later in patch 1.4.0.

[@iancraig5415]

Before I even watch in regards to why otz says he feels tunneling is more necessary: literally every group of survivors i come across at whatever mmr grouping im in thats p10 or higher brings an item of some kind, usually medkits. Combine that with things like circle of healing or new botany and it feels impossible at times to balance running the fun off-meta build I want to without tweaking it to accomodate like bringing franklins or in the case of toolboxes, eruption. A lot of my matches with 3+ items from the start end up being having to find that weak link you mentioned in a previous video, but in times where I've tried to be nice and not heavily prioritize chasing that person, more often than not it just ends with teams full healing on larger maps and the game essentially being over from that point onward. Along with map nerfs, I think heal speed and item balnce seriously need tweaking becuase the combination of endurance prevalence and the ease of resetting after a killer dropping one chase is a little absurd, which only got compounded with the solo queue UI changes. I hate playing killer and feeling like I have to commit to every chase because if I dont they reset in 20 seconds and then a 2 gens pop because the people who spawned on them just stuck it out.

[@doctorfatballin]

From personal experience I agree with his thoughts on the BBQ perk and I know one of my friends did as well. As a killer I felt rewarded getting all that BP for 4 hooks. It was lots of fun being encouraged to do something like that and getting such a nice reward. Now that it's gone however I have 0 incentive to hook everyone unless I feel that the match is easy and I'm allowed to do so.

[@rabbyd542]

Let me explain effective tunneling with stbfl: When sweaty teams see you tunneling they get hurt and everyone starts body blocking. You can get three stacks in less than 5 seconds. Just tunnel the obsession the body blocks come for free. If it doesn't work out that way, it's now a 3V1 and it doesn't matter whether you have stacks or not.

[@R1z1n_ttv]

I recently did a day where I didn't camp and tunnel then another day where I basically only camped and tunneled and honestly I had waaaaaaay more fun camping than chasing, instead of going through tons of op loops and perks they had to come to be and strategize around what I'm doing instead of me having to do it

[@itsmetimohthy]

on the bbq thing, before it was reworked, killers went out of there way to get hooks on everyone. since the meta shake up or whatever you wanna call it, killers tunnel way more than they used to and I honestly contribute it to the fact that's 1. easier to do now and more rewarding and 2. because BBQ & Chili no longer rewards you for hooking four different survivors

[@kyubey57]

Proud to say I watched the whole thing, but the sound effect at 44:03 really caught me off guard XD Love the vid style though it felt a lot more casual and back and forth for discussion that I like :)

[@feral.o7]

I think it was him LOL

[@kyubey57]

@@feral.o7 it absolutely was, didn’t mean to make fun of it I just got so confused when I heard it at first XD

[@CosmicKnightly]

I think the better sentence is that more people are realizing the value of tunneling and getting into a 1v3 with the addition of scourge hook, ds nerf, and stuff like that.

[@literallyalois2966]

so what you're telling me is that I need to tunnel harder. thanks Scott!

[@Xbob42]

This is exactly what I want, I assume. I mean, I haven't watched it yet, but conceptually absolutely!

[@KitsCloud]

I genuinely like this style of content so much and I won't lie, I have now reinstalled the game to play again. The community can be so exhausting when you just wanna chat or discuss topics. It's like so many people are split up into either "killer" or "survivor" and won't just have a good / fun / reasonable chat like this.

[@yoshimitsu4G0]

Listened through most of it bc I was in a match and vaguely interested but man was this way harder to get through than it needed to be. I get that it's a livestream clip or w.e and a lot of it is responding to chat but spending like 90% of the vid reiterating the same point only to end on "its anecdotal" gets tired pretty quick, esp. over a 50 min runtime.

[@Zacharygoldberg123]

SCOOTER IS NOW A REACT ANDY!!! HES MADE IT!!!

[@JetSabel]

When you said that survivors used to be way stronger, it reminded me of the time when exhaustion perkes would tick off cool down when in a chase. I started playing right when that got changed, but It was stupidly strong to have 2-3 sprint bursts or dead hards back then.

[@Phantom_Kraken]

“It takes me 3hrs to get up” That’s so relatable wtf💀

[@mingalo2620]

I don't think tunneling in this context can be taken as hardcore tunneling, i.e. not even going for free downs on other survivors. I think we need to see this from the perspective of a tunneler who still wants to win. If the killer goes for survivor X whenever they can, but still chases other people when X is hooked ir doendo this pretty much allows for most of Otz's points and perk usage to still work just fine and get their actual value from tunneling. You wouldn't be tunneling just to tunnel someone, you still wants to win so you would do other things when survivor X isn't "available"

[@realrelapse2476]

The thing with stbfl tunneling is it isn’t going to be the immediate tunnel, with otz build for example discordance allows you to find a non obsession and surge pop allows you to dmg gens while spreading pressure. Once you have stacks you can tunnel and you may have someone already on second hook and if you tunnel them out at the point you’ve basically won the game.

[@onlystamina5932]

When Otz said perks I believe he was referring to killer perk changes, not specifically survivor perks; as he went on to explain. Glad you mentioned you cut him off though

[@linguinibros.productions]

I only play Killer and I'd choose to try and get my 4 stacks instead of tunneling someone out (usually at hook exchanges)

[@novvhereofficial]

I actually really liked this type of video Scott. I love long form content and if you started doing it I'd watch them so much. Good video.

[@baang8229]

I don’t agree with the whole point of killers not caring so much about 4Ks in the past, did we all forget about the hatch standoffs for the 4k that were a common occurrence lol

[@strongwolf8534]

The only reason why Make Your Choice has lost relevance is because of built in BT. It's a shadow nerf to MYC, limiting the immediate benefit of going back to hook such as with Hag traps. it allows the unhooked survivor to body block for their rescuer instead of the normal other way around.

[@wholehorse331]

I think even if it's an anecdotal single game, it's a good indicator that just running around and not tunneling a survivor out of the game won't win you the game even if you can win chases quickly, but without the survivors making major mistakes. But honestly maybe that says more about how good Pain Res or gen-kicking builds are.

[@hannahashton8376]

Tunneling is in part worse because in so many videos Otz makes, he talks about how good tunneling is, and how important it is to get one person out of the game in his streak videos. I think he has normalized it by saying it's something you need to do to win.

[@adrianmalinowski1073]

Back in my days every killer knew that they are going to be stabbed 3/4 times per trial without even tunneling or getting a single hook stage. How people were loosing as survivors with all the ridiculous map designs, shit tons of pallets, killer slugishness... it's beyond me xD

[@MeAndMyFlintNSteel]

I like this video format, I like seeing how you get your conclusions.

[@shadnickxdx9211]

My takeaway: Just to add insult to injury in the many negative things about the community, a good chunk of the DBD community also has problems with verbal comprehension. Outstanding.

[@thatfishguy4991]

I think the NOED nerf was overall good for the game.

[@lovelysix6296]

Absolutely but especially for solo queue players. And to address strong killers like Nurse and Blight

[@Kurse_of_Kall]

@@lovelysix6296 strong killers don't need NOED though lol, they should be winning before endgame in MOST cases anyways. Low tier killers leaned on NOED as a crutch to get "free wins" with a sudden 4 man slug or something.

[@lordofentity2786]

10:00 NOED also has been nerfed indirecly by the new DH. Now you can “test” if the killer has it by getting hiw while using Dead Hard. Not the safest, but starts the 30 sec. timer and tells everyone.

[@keganroark1526]

Any decent killer will already know you have it by then and can play around your dh and if not then your not really testing for noed anymore your putting yourself at risk and just going on a normal chase intentionally So however long that takes plus the 30 seconds and then you have to pray he actually messes up and eats your dh or your dead. 9/10 times throwing yourself at the killer is just stupid.

[@MythicTF2]

I think the whole tunneling problem is a bit more complicated than "DS is worse now". A lot of killers tend to get VERY upset over any survivor change (Just look at how many killer players are upset over the HUD changes). In turn, they tunnel more as if to "ruin their fun". DS being worse only helped that to begin with. A lot of killers just tunnel to be dicks, that's how it is in my experience. Killers tunnel and camp just to punish the survivor for being good and "out-smarting" them once. I played a game earlier and my friend hole'd a doctor and they got RELENTLESSLY tunneled and camped. I remember a few games where I had a really good chase and just got tunneled and proxy'd because the killer just wanted to (even though they WERE playing nicer before said chase). DS being worse, as I said, only made this EVEN EASIER. I don't think its as simple as "DS worse now. me tunnel more". I think its genuinely some killer players tend to just be dicks to survivors in the average "skill level" of DBD. There's also content creators that constantly say how "Yeah if you get the game into a 3v1 you've basically won" that re-iterates how tunneling is a simple and easy way to win. Even if they're not trying to be mean and they're playing for the win, the average player that cares about winning will think "Okay, the easiest way to win is to tunnel someone out because Otzdarva said so".

[@107frenchy]

It's not "because otzdarva said so," tunneling is legitimately the easiest way to win. If someone gets killed at 4 or 5 gens and you're not absolute dogwater, you're getting at least a 3k.

[@MythicTF2]

@@107frenchy My point isn't if it is or isn't the most effective way to win. My point is that people will mindlessly do what a content creator says without even putting the thought or idea into WHY people like Otz will do said things.

[@bobwinslow1920]

we should force people who argue in comments to include a quote from the video to support their argument and prove they watched it

[@FingFantasticFox]

I like this reaction style video. I would definitely be interested in seeing some more man

[@DillonMeyer]

The main build I run on *any* killer to keep things fun for both sides is: No Way Out. Remember Me. Nemesis. Rancor. To play this build right, it forces you to eat pallet stuns on purpose-- without Enduring. You want to tunnel the person who is currently the obsession until you hook them, then go get a new obsession by being stunned, and do the same to them. If you can't manage to get them to stun you, just go for unique hooks like BBQ. There is no generator slow down in this build, and instead is traded off for gate slow down. This lets you have 76 extra seconds to hunt people down after they would have won, even if they're coordinated enough to have someone on the exit gate as soon as the last generator is finished. Over a whole minute is huge. Your main goal the entire game? Get your end-game mori. Your bonus objective? Get more. Rancor with Nemesis lets you change your obsession, even if the first died, allowing you to continue doing more murder. In some cases, I also switch out Remember Me for Lightborn, in the expectation that they'll go for a lot of flashlighting/flashbanging/mines. It also makes you that much more intimidating when they do get that pallet stun and try to blind you after, only to realize they extended the duration you can see their aura for after you destroy the pallet. It doesn't slow down generators or healing, so it doesn't feel horrible to fight as survivor. It has a built in "Goal" for the killer. It can turn losing games into four kills. You'll have more moris in your games guaranteed. It promotes chasing all survivors, and not just one; the sooner you can fully stack Remember Me and No Way Out, the sooner you can play the game without as much restriction.

[@pineapplepizzasandwich1974]

How does he not understand that the point of STBFL is to enable you to quickly down the guy you tunnel so you can chuck them back on the scourge hook?

[@ScottJund]

my point is if you start by tunneling one guy they're almost dead before you even get max stacks and other chase perks like SF Enduring, Bamboozle, Dissolution etc can help you down the person faster with no startup time

[@Magic-ml3zv]

"Everyone expects to escape every game and everyone expects to get a 4k every game" That is SO true. I changed my mindset about that because in one of your videos you mentioned "If a game is balanced you should win around 60% of your games" or something around those lines I thought, well it's true. I'm not supposed to be winning 100% of my games, I shouldn't tilt because everyone escaped, I should be having fun however I can

[@SupremeDalek225]

12:43 Just to clarify for Scott here, Otz worded it weird but what he meant was: beforehand the perks that he's showing on his killer were stronger but nowadays have fallen off since gens are just strangely going faster anyway even though the time on them is longer.

[@giantsweet1472]

I'm over here not camping or tunneling just because it makes me feel bad.

[@olivier0092]

Scott slowly morphing into Reaction Andy. Can't wait for the shorts 🤣

[@Indigo_Ninja]

I was there for this! It was a fun discussion and I was glad to be there to contribute!

[@admiralthunderbunny4520]

Scott, I completely disagree. Tomatoes are classified as s fruit, so therefore salsa is a fruit cup, NOT a salad like you so wrongly inferred at 34:12 . But on a serious note, I agree that people need to watch the vid before commenting, like you said in the intro. Hope the opening got a laugh . . .

[@middox239]

i have had groups that do 2 1/2 gens THROUGH corrupt intervention, the only reason its a good perk is the killers choice what to do during that time, for example injuring multiple people and checking the unexposed gens possibly applying eruption etc

[@Andreslashfully]

The BBQ stacks argument is COPIUM. Current DS being a joke and unpopular is way more impactful than this BBQ nonsense, you could tunnel and get 4 stacks anyway.

[@Cairsoir]

MyC is lowkey "they'll allow me to tunnel" -perk; played wraith the other day with some casual genkicking perks (eruption, NTH, CoB) and MyC; whenever I got hook and left the hooked person to go look for others, hear the unhook and scream and obviously run back since I want the value and the unhooked people want to take hit for their unhooker, which obviously tells me they are fine with being targeted. Easy ethical tunneling, straight from killers rulebook.

[@ashmaniacal]

Scott, were you watching something with cannon fire? It sounded like somebody yelling about it at 22:35 and 22:48.

[@xIronwafflexx]

Anecdotal, but even as survivor, I almost never see people run hyper, and when they do, it's a Kate and she hides in the corner.

[@TheDeenoh]

Obviously it varies by where you play, when you play, mmr, etc. Etc. But I've been tracking builds and ran into 2 hyperfocuses in the last 56 games.

[@theslavicrat3784]

Bro I swear when I sense a Hyper I fck cry as killer main. Nothing more frustrating than seeing a Mf with a purple medkit solo a gen faster than two poeple

[@josephb4224]

Doing it live was deff a cool change. I wouldn't mind seeing more of your vids done this way. Of course I enjoy the content either way, but this was cool..

[@MobTalon]

About Decisive Strike, I really like the suggestion that was once made on Reddit, in which the perk could work around a token system. Your number of tokens are the same as the number of available generators, for each repaired generator you'd lose a token. Each token would represent 1 second of stun after a successful proc. This would absolutely delete tunneling as an option at 5 or 4 gens, and even deter it at 3 gens. Since there are 7 gens in the game, the smallest stun would be 2 seconds, which wouldn't even happen because when 5 gens are completed, Decisive Strike would be disabled, making the actual shortest stun last about 3 seconds. If a killer tunneled at 5 gens, they'd risk a 7 second stun.

[@SamMaki]

4:20 this was me. I've played this game since pre-nurse, back in 2016. I used to play this game in stints, I'd play for 4 weeks, quit for 5 months, resume and repeat. Every time I came back I'd have cap BP, spend them, use BBQ & Chile to farm up points. Actually don't understand why they removed the BP bonus from this perk. The game isn't competitive, it's a log in play for an hour type of fun game. Weird change.

[@Paws4MaeTTV]

I agree with your points and as to some of your questions I’ll offer my own explanation from experience: BBQ incentives: •In matches as survivor- I had far less tunneling in my matches when the killer was using bbq not just because of the BP bonus but also because of the information showing people who are a decent way away from the hook. •In matches as killer- I don’t tunnel much in my games but back then being a “newer” (300~ hours) killer when tunneling was most effective for me I focused a lot more on the BBQ stacks of getting more bp to help with the grind. Later on as I became a more experienced killer I still used BBQ a lot and almost never tunneled anymore. Now this is not to say that I didn’t tunnel end game etc but I feel like objectively I was more focused on getting my stacks before I killed someone. I often spread the pressure just so I could get my stacks for more bp and if I didn’t then it wasn’t guaranteed I’d get a hook on a survivor and I’d possibly miss out on that bp bonus. (Nowadays) I barely ever see killers running BBQ at all instead it’s switched out for no where to hide or other stronger aura reading perks. Whereas before there was little tunneling with bbq it’s much more frequent that they take that information and tunnel a survivor out harder. EX: Spirit had 2 gens pop where she was spreading pressure so she switched to tunneling people out and killing them and then rinse and repeat. STBFL tunneling- survivors coming in to body block for their teammate so you gain more stacks. You often see them trying to trade hooks and you gain stacks and then also take hits. You can hit through DH for more stacks and through BT for more. It’s easier to get stacks then you may assume.

[@MarkTheViewer]

I think there are 2 big reasons that tunneling is the current route to go. DS being shit, and the lack of incentives to hook other survivors. Scott I don't think you credit BBQ and Chili enough as a perk that incentivises going for other survivors. Other than the ultra giga sweat killers out there who usually didn't even run bbq, most killers would either go for the unhooker for stonks, or use the aura reveal to go stop people doing gens. The incentives of pop and BBQ made a big difference in persuading killers to go for other survivors. Without the incentives and the lack of ds usage anymore its so tempting to go for the person unhooked if you don't know what else to do.

[@adabong]

this is exactly my thoughts this was a very good video scott

[@C00kyCorey]

Not gonna lie. When a P100 sends me to a bad map i camp. I don't care. There is a level of stress as a Killer main that is not worth it.

[@DeathwingDuck]

Maybe it's because killer isn't harder, but it's WAY more stressful now. Maybe tunneling if successful helps alleviate some of that stress? Everyone talks about killer being easier... so why do I enjoy solo survivor more? Even before the survivor info update I found it less stressful and more fun. For a small amount of time after the meta change I found killer more fun, before the current meta was established. It's harder on killer to not focus on "winning" (Killing Survivors) than it is for survivor (escaping). And I also say matches are more often too won sided. As killer I find more often I stomp or get stomped on, with a rare in between. At least as survivor if I feel we aren't winning, I feel more comfortable either focusing on my challenges or just trying to do enough to get a high amount of bloodpoints. I hope I made sense. I'm just spitballing an idea from my own experience.

[@MetalBalu01]

The thing is that killer was never not stressful, but that's the thing. You can't expect to have chill games while you are against 4 people it's just not the way things work.

[@paulanthony5801]

Looking back on this and answering what would happen after the eruption nerf - Healing Nerf lol

[@derunfassbarebielecki]

The main reason why tunneling is more viable nowadays, because gens take longer to repair. Decicive strike is a minor influence. It just makes a whole difference when back then 3 gens took around 4 minutes for a single survivor to do and now its like 7 minutes. And then obviously the combo eruption and call of brine make it impossible to manage to repair 3 gens in over 10 minutes, because unless the killer totally sucks in chases they will get value out of tunneling and kicking gens.

[@Mazerwolf]

React Andy but imagine i said it positively

[@TypicalSamandre]

On the subject of the strength behind being able to just win a chase. Have you seen Rts’ video about the Bill he lost like 7 times in 1 game?

[@Marverick1998]

So ironic for BHVR to claim that they wish to stop tunneling and camping, while also destroying one of the best and healthiest anti-tunnel perks in the game. So gross. I attempted to use DS for a recent Rift challenge to keep myself alive so that I could escape with Vittorio, and not in five seconds was I immediately knocked down again and removed from the game for the first few minutes of it. Literal complete waste of a perk slot. Off the Record is no competition to what DS used to be. If a killer really wanted to tunnel, they'd knock your OtR out of your hands immediately upon being unhooked, yet everyone shaped it up to be an op perk when it first came out. It does absolutely nothing but make you even more appealing to the killer to tunnel out.

[@hnaht321]

hmmm, this style of video brings a whole new meaning to Scott "only react" Jund

[@Doncroft1]

Lots of people still use DS. It can still be effective. At worst it buys time. At best, it can facilitate an escape, combined with loops and/or bodyblocks. OTR into DS into DH is super strong. Tunneler's nightmare.

[@silomonptolomeo3759]

About the STBFL thing, It just helps not giving much distance when others take hits and protect the tunneled person, while punishing making stronger the killer. It is usually for M1 killers.

[@fuza16]

The thing with lucky break, is that u can still hear the grunts. So killer that lose them would be dumb imo.

[@45a11]

as a killer (even only at gold 2) i see a brand new part (on the low end) about every three games, but im certain it’s acc closer to every other game or even every game, it’s insanely common now unless you wanna get left in the dust by gen speeds u have to tunnel to some degree some games, and that’s how it has to be, especially if you’ve not brought the strongest slowdowns

[@chaotictense5541]

Scott trying to be right 24/7 is so funny to me 😂💀

[@ScottJund]

Do you try to be wrong? Wtf

[@chaotictense5541]

@@ScottJund and he responded LMFAOOO 💀

[@ScottJund]

@@chaotictense5541 🤩😆😅🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@techstorezombie9316]

I feel like the point of STBFL for tunneling is to more quickly catch up to your tunnel target after hitting their Off the Record or Dead Hard

[@mosshivenetwork117]

They should just add tunnels at this point.

[@tawney1023]

As a survivor I am much less afraid or upset about noed now. Its still a very strong hex perk. But its more of a psychological nerf. It feels more overcomeable. Still a time sink to deal with. But not impossible on a map like swamp anymore. What happens after its cleansed is still up to the survivors and killers. I guess its better for everyone really. because its not a "gtfo" alarm anymore.

[@hexxy1122]

i find it so weird how they take the BP bonus off BBQ and i believe was on WGLF and then add in a prestige system that goes up to 100 which is like a bit over 1 mil per level

[@mythmage8231]

4:18 Honestly, it's more true than people think. Even if you hated survivor players and never wanted them to have fun, you had a common enemy: the Bloodweb. Even in toxic builds, BBQ was ran because the bonus BP was just so nice to have.

[@thegrimeyhole]

This format of a live discussion is way more interesting for me. I like hearing the bounce around of ideas from chat, and I think having these discussions like your videos per usual, but add another good player (survivor or killer) or content creator to have the discussion with. New Scott Jund podcast idea? 👀👀