Turning Acetate Into Fuel (Kolbe Electrolysis)

[@ScrapScience]

To try everything Brilliant has to offer-free-for a full 30 days, visit brilliant.org/ScrapScience/ . The first 200 of you will get 20% off Brilliant’s annual premium subscription.

[@DanielSilva-jj2lz]

Can you extract copper from the mineral copper using reduction through hydrogen, using methane as a source of hydrogen?

[@AsymptoteInverse]

I just discovered this channel a week or two ago, and I've already binged most of it. The electrolysis experiments are probably my favorite: you've introduced me to a lot of electrolytic chemistry I wasn't even aware of, like this reaction and the production of ammonia.

[@HyperspacePirate]

Thanks for posting this. I've been trying to make Ethane gas for a cascade refrigeration system

[@suprememasteroftheuniverse]

It's not vinegar anymore. Therefore this video is cheap clickbait but it seems that his subscribers have no self respect. Just clicking "don't recommend".

[@MIH0319]

I saw on Wikipedia that carboxylic acids with longer chains (10-15?) work best for the reaction. Maybe try the reaction with sodium stearate or something similar to see if it would yield paraffin wax?

[@ScrapScience]

Very interesting. I'd always heard that the longer chains were more difficult, but I don't think that was actually based on any evidence. Do you have the specific page where you saw this info? I'll have to do some reading. Edit: Actually yes, from a quick look at some literature on the topic, the long chains can often work quite well. Seems like there's lots of room for some experimentation here, haha.

[@AsymptoteInverse]

@@ScrapScience I'd also be curious to see if salicylic acid could be converted to biphenol, or benzoic acid to biphenyl. Biphenyl might be easier to detect, since it's reported to have a "pleasant" odor.

[@dragoscoco2173]

Basic soap would be enough. One issue I can see is the end-product coating the anode.

[@Samsungedge-rf1hw]

@@ScrapScience 8

[@AlphasysNl]

When you squirted the gas into the soapy water, I noticed the bubbles shrinking, which at first I could not explain. Now knowing it's like 2/3 CO2, which readily dissolves in water, it makes complete sense.

[@ScrapScience]

I noticed the bubbles shrink but didn't think much of it at the time. That makes a lot of sense!

[@Drkhan427]

You should also analyze the product on cathode side, acetate maybe reduced to aldehyde

[@benfairlamb1760]

Surely do a follow up making longer chain alkanes with this method. I think it would be a super cool idea making pure octane from pentatonic and running your car off of it, though it would be far from economically viable I’m sure.

[@ScrapScience]

Given the somewhat unexpected interest in this reaction, I'm definitely thinking about doing some more investigations into different variants. Running something off homemade octane is a very cool idea...

[@grebulocities8225]

If you can stand the smell of valeric acid, that is! Or butyric, or propionic for that matter - short-chain fatty acids have a tendency to smell like a mix of BO, vomit, and barnyard animals.

[@oitthegroit1297]

​​​@@grebulocities8225 Butanoic acid smells like the essence of parmesan cheese to me.

[@Tunkkis]

​@@oitthegroit1297 I've had to wash my hands with baking soda to get rid of the horrendous butanoic acid smell. Didn't even spill any, just touched the outside of the glass bottle.

[@oitthegroit1297]

@@Tunkkis I've got a new nickname for you: Parmesan Man! Haha!

[@WaffleStaffel]

"Without further ado, that's the end!" lol. Very nicely done, thank you!

[@WheezardX]

One of your best videos so far. Congrats on the sponsorship!

[@suwedo8677]

You're my favorite youtuber by far. You got me into chem mate.

[@ScrapScience]

Wow, very kind words! I'm super happy to know my videos have that effect, and I'm glad you enjoy them!

[@suwedo8677]

@@ScrapScience I'm so glad you answered! Of course your videos have that effect, you showed on multiple occasions how we can use everything around us to make some cool chemicals!! Keep up your work it's really amazing, I've longed for a long time for such content!

[@experimental_chemistry]

I have this experiment on my channel, too. It also worked with carbon electrodes, but of course not that efficient as with platinum. If the CO2, which inhibits combustion, could be washed out from the anode gas with caustic soda, you will get nearly pure ethane. With formate you will only get CO2 and hydrogen, but no alkane.

[@raloed.363]

This man generating fuel from the anode of electrolysis Hydrogen: Am I a joke to you ? -_-

[@ScrapScience]

Haha this is my favourite comment.

[@ageofengineering159]

Some days ago I was looking for Kolbe reaction. And now my favorite youtuber made video about it!

[@andrewhaychemistry]

Really excellent video, love the proof of the ratio of gases at the end. Top work.

[@Giorgio_Caniglia]

So I can produce fuel from every carbossilic acid or carbossilic ion right? And what did remain in the U Tube?

[@ScrapScience]

The reaction products depend on what the rest of the carboxylic acid molecule contains. It's not necessarily always going to give you a fuel. I don't really know what you mean by 'remain in the U-tube'. The net reaction here is that carboxylic acid is split and converted into hydrogen (on the cathode) and carbon dioxide/ethane (on the anode).

[@Giorgio_Caniglia]

@@ScrapScience Sorry for the bad syntax and english, I wrote It quite quickly and at late night, you answered completely, by fuel I meant alkanes or hydrocarbons, and by "what remains in the U tube" I meant if After all the electrolysis remained something as a product but the answer Is "No" if I have undestood. Thank you for the content and for the answers!

[@Sim-q9t]

@@Giorgio_Caniglia its water bro

[@ekkekrosing8454]

love your videos, this is the exact channel i had been looking for. Interesting chemistry using things that are found at home. Thank you for making videos! sry for my bad english

[@ekkekrosing8454]

Congrats on the sponsor!

[@ScrapScience]

Thanks mate!

[@boringpolitician]

5:38 - That looks like a fun thing to do with plastic gloves on! (You need one of them long lighters)

[@sledzik1235]

0:49 He said the thing!

[@loominous_flux]

It would be cool to see you run these experiments with a reference electrode set up beside the working electrode.

[@ScrapScience]

Hmm, that's definitely an excellent thought. They're not even that expensive either...

[@loominous_flux]

@@ScrapScience yeah you could probably get an Ag/AgCl electrode for not too much, it would be very interesting to see how much of those 11 volts are actually going to the reaction vs to ohmic losses

[@gerarddugas6224]

Ruthenium iridium coated titanium electrode for anode and titanium electrode for cathode used to make chlorine from salt water in swimming pools. Might this be a choice for Turning Acetate Into Fuel (Kolbe Electrolysis) ? If yes, I have helped.

[@Felixkeeg]

Hey mate, got a source for the platinum electrode?

[@ScrapScience]

Yep! I got it from here: aliexpi.com/lxa7

[@SodiumInteresting]

Congrats on sponsor. Also a good video, I didn't know about this

[@ihtsarl9115]

Thank you very much for this video it is really very helpful for my experiment, and I anxiously subscribed .

[@alert2]

Isn't vineger already flammable?

[@ScrapScience]

I suppose glacial acetic acid is flammable, but my thought was that standard vinegar is mostly water and non-flammable...? Don't read into it too much, haha.

[@garycard1456]

Glacial acetic is. Dilute acetic or vinegar....nope. Water content too high.

[@derbemobile]

Can you mix the hydrogen and ethane gas, bubble it into soap and then light it? Thanks for the video

[@freemanrader75]

So when yeast act on the starches in a mash they can either produce vinegar or alcohol depending on if you cut off their source of air or not. Did you just essentially convert vinegar into alcohol gas?

[@ScrapScience]

It depends on what you mean by 'alcohol gas'. While related structurally, the properties of ethane and ethanol are extremely different. So no, we're not making something I'd call alcohol gas, but it's got the same number of carbon atoms in the molecule.

[@joescience4410]

Interesting lab.Thanks for the video and explanation

[@ArthurSilva-fj9oh]

Try with butanoic acid

[@kreynolds1123]

U-tube electrolisys on KZbin. 😊 I love it.

[@adelinyoungmark1929]

hmmm now theres 2 ways to "make" hexane at home for lab use, petrol and elecctrolysis. (although the petrol method is higher yielding and gives you more solvent(s).)

[@benjaminntwali9246]

Wonderful experiment. I would like to request an experiment on CO2 electrolysis to methane and CO

[@jamiecurran3544]

This video is a double entendre, watching a KZbin video about a U-tube with a reaction n not in the way most KZbin reaction video's go!😂👍

[@R2NOTU]

How do you make carbolic acid I heard it was a good bug killer but I've had no success in finding diy info.

[@kemster9495]

What other gasses are possible with different organic acids

[@ScrapScience]

Basically any straight chain alkane with an even number of carbons can be made via this method (ethane, butane, hexane, etc.). Even the odd numbered ones can be made by using mixtures of different acids. Some brached and substituted molecules might work too, though it seems a lot of them run into issues of low yields.

[@ugarit5]

Does using a bdd electrode help with this electrolysis (especially for longer cgain molecules)?

[@ScrapScience]

BDD electrodes actually lead to a different mechanism when electrolysing carboxylic acids. Due to the presence of the hydroxyl radical, you actually mostly get CO2, methanol, and methyl acetate as oxidation products instead of CO2 and ethane. I'm not sure if this trend continues with the longer chains.

[@htomerif]

I'm confused. Would this polymerize dicarboxylic acids then?

[@ScrapScience]

I'd imagine you'd run into issues of extremely slow polymerisation (since you're trying to get the reaction to randomly occur on the same molecule again and again), but yes this is probably possible? I'm not completely sure You might still run into further issues when you start making a solid product, which will likely coat the anode and block current flow.

[@htomerif]

@@ScrapScience Sorry, I wan't clear at all. I was more looking at this from the point of view of wanting to avoid polymerization, i.e. being able to make something like succinic acid from oxalic acid at a high enough yield to be worth trying. So di or trimerization rather than trying to make LDPE through electrolysis. I wonder what the fractions of different polymers would be vs time and voltage.

[@romanchomenko2912]

Your next step is the reduction of energy used to produce hydrogen gas. At the moment it takes 50kw of energy to produce 1kg of hydrogen so the reduction of energy is to lower it to 45kw and hitting the jackpot of 40kw now there's a challenge. Please note it takes 9kg of water to produce 1kg of hydrogen with the compound add 3 percent KOH do not use tap water because it has chlorine in it . I've read about a Australian company who managed to drop the energy to 42kw but no proof of doing it . The largest electrolysis units are rated at 100Mw . The major losses is increasing acidity and heat .

[@danieljohnson3024]

Can you do this with the fatty acids of soap to make longer alkanes?

[@ScrapScience]

At this stage, I'm pretty sure that would work (at least to some degree). Given the number of people interested in this reaction, I may have to do some further investigations.

[@sv_n]

is it possible to form ester here when CH3COO radical reacts with CH3 radical?

[@ScrapScience]

It's possible, but the formation of esters is an extremely minor reaction pathway according to some old literature on the topic. The formation of ethane occurs at a much higher yield.

[@garycard1456]

Interesting to see what product(s) ascorbate/ascorbic acid would yield. Or phthalate/phthalic acid. Or citrate/citric acid. Or cinnamate/cinnamic acid

[@Sky-pg6xy]

Quit making up chemicals nerd

[@alexanderdickie6090]

I assume this would work with acetic acid alone without any sodium ions present? Perhaps just a bit slower?

[@ScrapScience]

While it would work to some degree, the yield here is dependent on the concentration of the acetate ion. Acetic acid doesn't dissociate very well at all, so there will be hardly any acetate ions in solution if you use the acid alone. Aditionally, the conductivity of an acetic acid solution is very low. Overall, you'll get a terrible yield and a terrible reaction rate, so I would definitely recommend having an acetate salt as the major component of your electrolyte.

[@Hyo9000]

Hello hi. What book would you recommend I use to learn electrochemistry well? I have a good grasp on chem and on redox

[@ScrapScience]

'Bard and Faulkner' is definitely the place to start if you've already got a good background in general chemistry.

[@teambridgebsc691]

Interesting, educational, recommended.

[@JehuMcSpooran]

Nice work. what other electrode material could be used for the anode other than the expensive platinum foil?

[@MeMe-rx9ik]

I would like to know that as well.

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

Probably lead dioxide

[@ScrapScience]

Sadly, this is one of the cases where it's pretty much just platinum group metals that do it. Gold, nickel, lead dioxide, and basically any other standard electrode materials are known to give zero yield here. Graphite works to some degree, but the yield is abysmally low at less than 3% (comparing to platinum which is above 90% in a lot of cases).

[@glohstr1]

Maybe a platinum plated anode?

[@ScrapScience]

@@glohstr1 Yeah, that'll definitely do it too. I'm not sure about the wear-rate of the platinum for this reaction though. It's unlikely, but possible that thin platings of platinum might not last long? Maybe some testing is required...

[@oitthegroit1297]

What a weird, cool reaction!

[@thomasfranks8598]

What if you used formic acid?

[@ScrapScience]

The same kind of reaction still occurs. You'll get a formate radical and then it will split into CO2 and a H' radical. The H' radical is very easy to oxidise though, so it just becomes H+ on the anode. Overall, you basically just get CO2 as a reaction product in that case.

[@jonathanfalvo2414]

Could lead be used for the anode?

[@ScrapScience]

It’s possible that a properly prepared lead dioxide anode (with an appropriate substrate) could be used - though I’m not sure if it allows the desired reaction pathway. If you’re talking about lead metal, or a lead dioxide electrode prepared by anodising lead, then no, it can’t be used here.

[@TheHuntermj]

Could you make haloalkanes by adding the corresponding acid to the solution?

[@TheHuntermj]

Or even a salt, but an acid would help to maintain the pH. You would also have to identify if the haloalkane was formed directly or from a secondary free radical halination of the product gasses.

[@ScrapScience]

Haloalkanes are very tricky to make like this. I don't think I've seen any reports of people doing it successfully. It's been tried many times to start with halogenated carboxylate structures, but this reaction just won't proceed in that case (likely because the carbon-halogen bond is easier to react on the anode than the carboxylate group, but I'm not sure). Starting with a solution of carboxylic acid/carboxylate along with halide ions probably wouldn't work either. I would predict that the halides would be oxidised on the anode instead of the generation of the alkyl radicals, and even if you could generate the alkyl radicals, they'd be unlikely to react with halide ions in solution. I'm not 100% sure on this one since I can't find any literature on the topic though (and also because organic chemistry is not my strong-suit). Might be something to try at some point though?

[@TheHuntermj]

@@ScrapScience yeah, now that I think about it the halogen ions would probably be preferentially electrolized over the carboxylic acid. And even if a haloalkane was produced there would be no way to tell if it was formed pre, post or during electrolysis. It might be a good experiment though, interesting side products can sometimes be the source of breakthroughs!

[@chemistryreacts]

Amazing video, what's the concentration of sodium acetate used?

[@ScrapScience]

I made the sodium acetate solution by neutralising 5% acetic acid with NaOH, so it was around 0.8 mol/L. The exact concentration isn't too important though.

[@experimental_chemistry]

​@@ScrapScience It should be concentrated if carbon electrodes are used, otherwise mostly oxygen from water is produced.

[@garrysekelli6776]

Finally I found a utube video on KZbin.

[@petevenuti7355]

If a non-aqueous electrolyte was used, would you still need platinum? If not, what would you recommend?

[@ScrapScience]

According to a little bit of reading I've now done on the topic, others have reported that gold electrodes and graphite electrodes give high yields of ethane when performing the electrolysis of sodium/potassium acetate in anhydrous acetic acid. Obviously graphite is the cheapest choice here, so that's what I'd go with. However, the conductivity of non-aqueous solutions of acetate are significantly lower than water solutions, so you also run into issues of slow reaction rates.

[@petevenuti7355]

@@ScrapScience I was thinking about an ionic liquid , but I was afraid most anions might be electrochemicaly reactive.

[@ScrapScience]

Ah I see, that makes sense too. There are quite a few ionic liquids with a wide enough electrochemical window to allow this reaction to happen, though I think they might be very expensive and probably near-impossible to obtain as an individual (I haven't looked much into ionic liquids honestly). I've got no idea how other anode materials would act under these circumstances either, but it's not unlikely that other materials would become viable I suppose.

[@蒋朝东]

Nice！I think nitromethane can be synthesized by this Kolbe Eletrolysis.

[@ScrapScience]

Interesting. Have you got any literature on the topic? Seems like a rather exciting thing to try.

[@蒋朝东]

@@ScrapScience Not much info on kolbe electrolysis and nitromethane. But I did find something interesting, that is methyl radicals can react with nitrogen dioxide to produce nitromethane and methyl nitrate, methyl nitrite etc. If the kolbe electrolysis process produces intermediate products such as methyl radicals, it may be possible to synthesize nitromethane via electrolysis a mixed solution of acetate and nitrate.(The yield may be low) (The pH of the solution may need to be low)

[@jerry3790]

Mix in the hydrogen from the other end and you’ve just doubled the efficiency of your fuel production

[@shere_kan8329]

hi there ! I remember you said that you'll be synthesing perchlorates in your chlorate video, have you got time to work on this idea or it's not on your to do list anymore ?

[@ScrapScience]

It's definitely still a plan for the future (it's actually the main reason I got this platinum electrode actually), so it will be happening at some point. I keep putting it off because I feel like I need to learn more about perchlorate cells before I actually build one. Additionally, given the size of my channel now, I think it's possible that any video I make on perchlorate cells might become one of the most widespread of its kind on KZbin (that's not saying much - there are just so few videos about perchlorate cells here...), so I think it really needs to be a very well-researched production.

[@shere_kan8329]

@Scrap Science I highly recommend these videos/yt channel : kzbin.info/www/bejne/manQpnulnZyCmK8 Lots of great resources

[@markshort9098]

That's definitely an interesting one and congrats on getting sponsored

[@kocoten3974]

Where did you get the platinum electrode?

[@ScrapScience]

Aliexpress is the only place I could find one easily, so that's where it's from.

[@LiborTinka]

Very interesting, thanks for quality video and detailed explanation. I am studying organic chemistry but never had time to look into electrochemistry (now it made me interested as you brought up organics). My current interest is what are the best parameters (molar concentration, voltage, electrode materials) to obtain tin metal from tin(II) chloride solution or even tin(IV) solution. If you plan to make such video it would be bliss. I've seen people doing this but the reaction conditions are kind of arbitrary. Same for running a silver cell or obtaining other metals from solution.

[@Goldenbear6]

It’s the first time I saw a U-tube on KZbin.

[@ububox2087]

so if you had a mixture of biologically sourced butyric and valeric acids in the right ratios and their associated ions you could basically make bio petrol?

[@ScrapScience]

Pretty much, yeah. Though it would be a very energy inefficient way of getting it I suppose.

[@pranaymalu9894]

Tried doing it in a school lab, but did not work :(

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

Platinum electrode, perchlorates when?

[@ScrapScience]

That is actually the main reason I got a pure platinum electrode, so one day it will happen. I keep planning it and putting it off because I feel like I need to learn more about perchlorate cells before I actually build one. Additionally, given the size of my channel now, I think it's possible that any video I make on perchlorate cells might become one of the most widespread of its kind on KZbin (that's not saying much - there are just so few videos about perchlorate cells here...), so I think it really needs to be a very well-researched production.

[@RylanRay-z2v]

I'm watching the u-tube inception

[@6150RE]

Very interesting.

[@zodd0001]

you can identify gaseous compound from density and get the molecular weight from relative density with hydrogen. Repeat the experiment with a soap. Get diesel fuel.

[@ScrapScience]

How would you measure the density of such a small volume of gas?

[@zodd0001]

@@ScrapScience with the proper modified bigger syringe.

[@SodiumInteresting]

Very good

[@Jkauppa]

why not just think that you are making H2 that reacts (taking the oxygen from whatever)

[@Jkauppa]

if you think it as a metal making reduction process, you dont have to get so f---- complicated in the explanation

[@Jkauppa]

sponsor does not help you to make things simple, only complex and obnoxious, and you are not living through "making living", have life in yourself, and true actual life is God

[@Jkauppa]

sellers sell, and livers live, through God

[@Jkauppa]

there are mortals and there is God, dont make mortals who are ded

[@Jkauppa]

so, think what happens, CH3COONa + H2 CH3COOH + Na, if you pump H2 to the CH3H-CO2, it would make water and CH3-CH3, ethane

[@ecocodex4431]

0:48 "Called a KZbin"? lol

[@Aaron-zu3xn]

0:57 KZbin²

[@teresashinkansen9402]

Of course, at least an unobtanium electrode is needed.

[@alejandroalessandro7820]

Cool Subbed 👍

[@ugurunver2403]

That's great. Now show us the reaction to produce CH3COONa with H20 + CO2 + Na + electric current. You know where it is going.

[@scotthultin7769]

605👍's up Scrap Science thank you for sharing

[@tristan795]

I meaaan, glacial acetic acid is already flammable

[@ScrapScience]

That's true, I'm kind of just hyping it up for the thumbnail haha.

[@undernetjack]

00:48 a U-tube on KZbin...hmmm

[@kingdarkem]

Huh wonder if it could be used as fuel for automotives....

[@theshuman100]

actually youre using a utube because thats the site we're on

[@gsestream]

yeah showing the reaction in youtube. great. lol

[@setoman1]

Acetic acid is flammable.

[@ScrapScience]

Well yes, but most people don't have glacial acetic acid, and the heavily diluted form (non-flammable due to the water content) is what I'm referring to.

[@crystalsheep1434]

Yes interesting

[@diakritika]

A U-tube on KZbin :)

[@hassantqatqa6165]

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@dondobbs9302]

I just watched some one using a U Tube on KZbin.......

[@TT-lf5hi]

👍

[@akkudakkupl]

Wonder if this is also generating methyl acetate and other species?

[@ScrapScience]

While it seems possible, studies into this reaction have only ever detected trace abounts of ester products (from what I've gathered, at least). It seems like the formation of ethane is much more favoured.

[@jasonmorgan661]

LMAO I just watched how to make acetone from soaking eggshells in vinegar at a warm temp for 24 hours and then you just filter the stuff and crank up the heat while using a condensed cooled set up to precipitate acetone in your catch flask... Potentially dangerous and don't use a Bunsen burner or it's boom...

[@andygaras]

Subbed scribed

[@whoever6458]

lol A U tube!

[@fabiana1880]

Please put him in an asylum! He needs help

[@DruggiePlays]

What? 😂

[@enzofitzhume7320]

Please Remove This Video.

[@ScrapScience]

Lol why?

[@whatthefunction9140]

More like crap science. Jk

[@ScrapScience]

Haha, I knew it was only a matter of time until someone made that joke (I mean, we're only one letter away). I've been waiting pretty much since I came up with the channel name, and I think you might actually be the first one to type it into the comments. Congratulations??

[@drmarine1771]

Pretty cool.

[@icebluscorpion]

Next up how to make hydrogen peroxide :D

[@infectedrainbow]

I love how your videos are always practically useless

[@ScrapScience]

Haha yeah pretty much