Sea-Bird (Derby & Arc 1965)

[@anthonydecruz178]

I was 18 in 1965,and took the day off work to go to the Derby. I'd always loved horseracing and appreciated the skills of trainers and jockeys. So having read Peter O'Sullevan's opinion of Sea Bird, decided to go and see the race. I had no money in those days and didn't back Sea Bird at 7/4, instead put 10 shillings e/w on Meadow Court. I'd been lucky and had backed Niksar to win the 2000 Gns, so was relaxed and looked forward to the race. However, once I saw Sea Bird canter to the start, I knew he was something different ! People talk about great horses like Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Frankel etc, great and wonderful animals. But Sea Bird was different, Pat Glennon sat quietly on him cruising, but when he let him run, his action was unbelievable, the elasticity of a greyhound in full flight, he flew into the lead effortlessly and Glennon was pulling him 50 yards before the post. I've always felt Sea Bird was a freak, but I'll never forget him or his annihilation of a fantastic field in the Arc.

[@kurman4749]

I totally agree with your sentiments regarding Sea Bird, he was the best I've ever seen in 63 years of following horse racing. There is a Japanese video of the 1965 Arc and it is so much sharper than this one. It shows that Sea Bird was in the first six for the entirety of the race. To find this video, type in 1965 Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe and scroll down the page until you come to a colour picture of Sea Bird with a lot of Japanese writing and the number [ NO 404 ] and click on it.

[@kurman4749]

I have seen all the great horses of the past 60 years, but none can compare with the scintillating brilliance of Sea Bird. Even the great Lester Piggott, when asked by Nick Luck what was the finest racehorse he ever saw, he unhesitatingly nominated Sea Bird. I doubt that I will ever see another racehorse to compare with him.

[@anthonydecruz178]

I used to know the one and only 'Lester' back in the 70's, and talked about Sea Bird's Arc. Well, he said that the great Willie Shoemaker, riding Tom Rolfe, couldn't believe the way Sea Bird cruised past him, and good horse that he was Meadow Court was not in the same league. Sadly, retired too early and despite some good horses at stud, there was a feeling of anticlimax about him. I however will never forget that day at Epsom when despite losing my 10 shillings e/w on Gulf Pearl, saw the fabulous Sea Bird 11.

[@mrk24107]

Freak of a horse, as I was growing up I remember every time I watched a champion year after year my grandma would say, “but he ain't no Sea Bird”. When you think how he easy he dispatched Meadowcourt (part owned by Bing Crosby) who went on to win the Irish Derby & K.George, he just looks all the more impressive. The Greatest... we'll never know, but he's certainly on the shortlist.

[@GBeret83]

I've never claimed to be an expert at anything in my life. But I have followed the sport worldwide for 30+ years. Being an American I saw all of the great American horses of the 70's, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Ruffian, Affirmed. I've seen all of the footage of Man O' War, Kelso, Dr Fager, Citation, etc...And I say to all right now, Sea Bird II was without a doubt in my mind the most complete thoroughbred in every way to ever step onto a racetrack. No American great would've touched him on turf.

[@tigerarmyrule]

Sea Bird never realy raced. His great wins were won at a hack canter for him. Remarkable. Even Mill Reef had to race a bit.

[@bgardiner2000]

Aside from riding the great Sea Bird II Australian jockey Pat Glennon also rode one of the greatest Melbourne Cup winners in history for the Cummings - Comic Court in the 1950 Melboune Cup in record time (first time under 3:20 for the race) carrying 59.5Kg. He certainly got to see the best of the best.

[@ronanshalloe2422]

I've just seen El Gran Senor winning the Guineas again on KZbin. It was unforgettable the way he ghosted past Lear Fan and then, when Chief Singer did the same, he just quickened again and swatted him away like a wasp. He won the way class horses do! No panicked jockey waving the whip at a tired horse trying to get him through the last two furlongs like in Frankel's Guineas.

[@derbywinners1646]

AMAZING HORSE YOU WILL NEVER SEE A HORSE LIKE IT AGAIN TOTALLY AWSOME HORSE

[@hollyplatts8549]

He is my horses grand father !😌😲

[@bbmtge]

Beautiful race. Excellent burst of speed and finishing "pulled-up". Can anyone answer as to the varying grade of this course.

[@ASupremeOwl]

You just have to listen to Andre Fabre when he stated that Mill Reef was the best thoroughbred he'd ever seen until Frankel came along he said hes like looking at a piece of art in a museum '' When I look at him I just think hes the best theres ever been '' Thats high praise

[@wayneo1269]

I think Nijinsky,See the stars and sea bird would account for Frankel

[@TheDarleyarabian]

@tigerarmyrule so true there animals at the end of the day and we all have bad days. like u wot amazes me is the ease at which he canters along and goes clear without even being asked or giving 100%.

[@FORESTDONS]

That was the same thinking i had.The moment frankel was brought to the front in the guineas,I knew that the jock/trainer wanted to make a statement.Anybody who knows racing can see that he was tiring at the end and if there was one great horse in the field,He would have been beaten.The jock tried to do it again in the st.james but it almost backfired.

[@Czerniakowska]

I did say 3 year olds and Golden Fleece's credentials on that level are impeccable, even if injury did prevent him from running again after his 1982 Epsom victory. The manner of his Derby win was sensational (look at the KZbin clip) as were his victories in the three other races in his career. He finished even faster than his sire, Nijinsky, and the fact that he also descended, on his dam's side, from Vaguely Noble suggests he might well have gone on to win the Arc.

[@paradoxicus]

Es emocionante ver el mejor caballo,para mí,de la historia.

[@elwynrichards185]

We all have our own opinions about which horse was the greatest, and there will never be unanimity. All I can say is that of all the horses I have seen race over the past 51 years none have made a greater impression on me than the brilliant Sea Bird II. I well remember the ITV commentator, John Rickman , saying a few days after Sea Bird had won the Arc, " I have never seen anything like it, he ( Sea Bird) just seemed to glide around the track, it was just so effortless."

[@leesog3203]

Frankel could have been anything over 1m4f but for me, including Secretariat and Ribot, Sea Bird is the Greatest middle-distance horse of all time..

[@bgardiner2000]

@francilius What about Onion and Prove Out? Didn't they beat him in his prime over his best distance on dirt?

[@ASupremeOwl]

To change the rating systems completely around one horse speaks volumes, I don't there as ever been a thoroughbred of Frankel's ability in the modern era or of that of many decades before him. Looking through the list of whos who in the Timeform listings the only horse without a question mark around him is Ribot - He also retired unbeaten and was truly outstanding but long before my time and that of many others around today...

[@mikedavies9953]

I'm sure everyone who enjoys racing has there own opinion on who the greatest Horse was in my era watching racing from the 80s to today ive never seen a Horse that would have lived with Dancing Brave , his acceleration was just unreal

[@signoresantinoburnett1169]

My top 5 in order. Seabird, Nijinsky, Ribot, Sea The Stars, Lammtarra (with all due respect to Dancing Brave)

[@guidogreco341]

Capo Capo Seabird,Ribot...and then the Others...see the opinion in timeform of the JOKEJS...they rated SEABIRD 145 SECRETARIAT 144 and RIBOT 143 BRIGADIER GERARD 143.........

[@paulbradley6490]

Amazing hind action, interesting to find out his weight? Very athletic looking

[@hollyplatts8549]

Sea bird is my horses grandfather!!!!!!!!!😌😌😌😲😲😲😲😲😲

[@quidnunc2436]

When I watched this race live in 1965 I thought then that Sea Bird was the greatest racehorse I had ever seen, 53 years later I have seen nothing on a racecourse to change that opinion. The only horse to have been as visually impressive as Sea Bird was the brilliant Arazi in the 1991 Breeders Cup Juvenile.

[@sagahammer]

I agree nothing has come close since then. He won the Arc easily enough but the drift to the centre of the course was to do with the bit rubbing on an abscess in his mouth. After the turn he accelerated and within a few stride the race appeared over but Reliance II was a relentless galloper and was closing on Sea Bird , so he accelerated again and put another 4 lengths between him and Reliance II despite the sideways drift.

[@leesog3203]

Here's my thoughts on some of the all-time great racehorses. Nijinsky (138) - Greatest engine. King George exceptional. Others have better turn of foot. Considered by many to be the best horse of the 20th Century. No other horse on the list could win a Triple Crown. Only Sea The Stars may have accomplished it in 2009. Ribot (142) - Tremendously powerful. Magnificent engine. Sustains speed better than others. Others have greater acceleration. Bred to be the perfect racehorse. Joe Mercer rates him as the best horse he ever seen, and he rode Brigadier Gérard. Also rates him higher than Frankel. Man Of War (139+) - Most physically imposing specimen of all. Seemingly unbeatable. Had Power, speed, everything. A True Champion. Hard to assess performances. May well well have been the ultimate racing machine. Dancing Brave (140) - Most devastating turn of foot. Looked great over a mile. Wonderful at Goodwood. A beautiful looking horse. If within striking range, may have ran Seabird and Ribot close in the Arc. Frankel (147) - Gave us three of the greatest performances ever seen on Turf - The Queen Anne, Juddmonte and Guineas as a 3 year old. Had everything. Stamina suspect. Was the most consistent great horse of all time. Would he have beat Orfevre in the 2012 Arc on soft ground? Has possibly the best form franked seen by any horse in history. Cirrus Des Aigles still winning races years later. Would have cantered over Wise Dan in Breeders Cup Mile. Secretariat (144) - Most visually powerful US racehorse - seen in colour. Ran on fast tracks, broke Triple Crown records. Lesser horses came close (Monarchos). Preakness time debatable. Beaten by Prove out. Rumored by some to have been abused with PED's. Phenomenal on Turf and Dirt. A wonderful engine. Turn of foot up with the best. Seabird (145) - Maybe the greatest. Outstanding turn of food. Beautiful mover. Pulverised Timeform-rated 137 Reliance. No other horse in history beat a horse as highly rated as Reliance so easily. Lester Piggot rates Seabird and Ribot as the best he ever seen, and that includes Frankel. Brigadier Gérard (144) - Best Guineas winner by far. Would have reeled in Frankel but perhaps not the more relaxed Frankel seen in subsequent races. Proved his greatness over all distances. Travels easily and slaughters opponents. Beat many Champions. The dream match up would be York 1m2f featuring; Frankel vs Seabird vs Secretariat vs Man Of War (With multiple pacemakers to draw out the best in all them) There's many other special champions like Sea The Stars, Dr Fagar, Mill Reef, Phar Lap, Ruffian, Damascus, Shergar, Seattle Slew but ultimately, at a distance to suit everyone (1m2f) I believe the four mentioned would represent the best of Europe and America. Odds would look like; Frankel 4/5 Seabird 7/4 Secretariat 3/1 Man O War 4/1

[@Velasca]

1m3f is an interesting distance for some dream races

[@lari2294]

I think Man o' War would beat them all without problems..

[@crashdavis721]

Change your post to American and European horses. Clowns like you would have a clue about Australian champions because you're ignorant

[@leesog3203]

@Crash Davis There’s been some tremendous Australian Champs. But I highlyyy doubt there’s been one like Frankel, Seabird, Ribot or Secretariat.

[@crashdavis721]

@@leesog3203 mate, you wouldn't have a clue. Black Caviar remained unbeaten through 25 races including taking on Europes best sprinters at Ascot. Frankel refused to travel. Ever heard of Phar Lap?

[@ThefightingCelt]

@TheEnglandWC Stalls were introduced a year later.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@rcschumann Point of order. Nijinsky was trained in Ireland, not the UK.

[@wayneo1269]

My Top five horses of all time in no particular order,Secretariat,See Bird,Nijinsky,See the stars,Phar Lap and sorry I have to mention Carbine who was a freak and Man of war another freak,ah well my top seven,I can't split them.

[@guidogreco341]

And what about.......RIBOT??????

[@wayneo1269]

guido greco Never heard of him

[@guidogreco341]

wayneo1269 The winner of the Arc de Tiomphe 1955/1956 King george 1956 unbeaten after 16 races

[@wayneo1269]

guido greco Thanks I'll check it out

[@lari2294]

Man o' War would destroyed ALL racehorses without problems.

[@tubeyhamster]

Time is important, but only when taken into account along with the weight carried, the course run over, the trajectory of the horse's trip, and the condition of the ground.

[@ASupremeOwl]

He took it to another level in terms of ability. Many horses over the years have better race CVs in terms of big wins. Nijinsky and Sea the Stars probably the best of them all when considering the all time greats but neither of them would have beat Frankel at any distance...

[@ASupremeOwl]

No horse in the history of the thoroughbred would have beaten Frankel at Royal Ascot in the Queen Anne Stakes. When as any horse ever won a Gr1 mile race at Royal Ascot by 11 lengths? He was so far ahead of his own generation it was frightening. You talk about him only beating a few high class horses even while hes been retired 3 horses he beat comfortably last year have won Gr1s already - St Nicholas Abbey in Dubai and at Epsom

[@adidaver2416]

gykve3t

[@ThefightingCelt]

Wow ! What a horse ! God, that was so easy. I don't think I've see an easier winner of a classic.

[@mizofan]

Shergar's Derby win was tremendous, but Sea Bird did make it look so easy

[@bgardiner2000]

The speed he gets past the leaders in the Derby is just ridiculous. In terms of the post-war gallopers (pre-WII are difficult to get a measure on) he has to rate as the best ever. Given the quality of horses he beat in the Arc, and the manner in which he won the Derby.... I guess his rating at 145, the highest ever speaks for itself.

[@ASupremeOwl]

His form is solid, His record unblemished. The best theres ever been in Europe, People talk of Secretariat being the best of all time which is possible but that horse ran on Lasix and Bute and I wouldn't be suprised if he as running pumped up to his eyeballs on steroids. Drugs laws and monitoring were less stringent than nowadays as been proved...

[@quidnunc2436]

What a brain dead moron.

[@leesog3203]

@@quidnunc2436 Why is he? Are you suggesting drugs weren't rampant in 1970's America?

[@siobhanwalsh7182]

secretariat was great on grass too, he had the ability to fly from front, get headed then find a burst of speed to win, it was his huge girth, and enormous heart that gave him such ability, sea bird was great, not sure wether greatest ever in europe, but secretariat was a total phenomena. the trouble with frankel is he never went for arc or breeders cup so many people {not me though} will always use that in criticism.....

[@anthonya7169]

Regarding Frankel not going for the Arc etc I wouldn’t use it as criticism but rather that it would have made his supremacy even greater (assuming he won them😂). I’m still of the “you can’t really judge horses of different eras against each other” thought though.

[@PATRIARCA173]

Beyond no doubt best ever in Europe over 2400

[@ASupremeOwl]

Its always difficult to compare past generations with that of the modern era as you know. Maybe the way to look at is, Frankel as took the thoroughbred to another level and now every other horse from now on will look to that level as the benchmark. Its been proved the thoroughbred is getting quicker as times suggest, Maybe the thoroughbred as progressed to another level since the days of Nijinsky, The Brigadier, Mill Reef... etc, Who knows?

[@anthonya7169]

Is the thoroughbred getting quicker? Do the times of today really back that up? I ask as someone who doesn’t know.

[@andrewblackie7170]

How was Sea Bird 7/4 for the Derby ?

[@ASupremeOwl]

sprinters fractionals for 5 furlongs on the Rowley Mile and still maintaining a 6 length lead at the finish in the Guineas - Just a remarkable horse. It all comes down to opinion at the end of the day and many will look towards the Brigadier or Mill Reef as better animals, I mean Dancing Brave was easily the best horse I'd seen until Frankel came along and thats even including Sea the Stars. Andre Fabre summed it up nicely with...

[@johngilly28]

@rcschumann i take it you've never been to epsom, i doubt sec would of loved it

[@andrewblackie7170]

I wonder why he started drifting across the track in his Arc ? Was that the direction to the stable after the race maybe 😂 Yeah crazy he won the Epsom Derby & Arc at a canter.

[@johnoconnell1752]

The greatest of all including Frankel.

[@Wildcat612]

Tom Rolfe, mentioned around 2:52, was not a Kentucky Derby winner. He won the Preakness, not the Derby.

[@Wildcat612]

Ah- sorry. Wikipedia had incorrect info. I knew he didn't win the KY Derby, but then went looking for his actual wins.

[@davidhunter9367]

Now that's what you call acceleration!

[@jamielinden119]

Sea Bird was exceptional . For me Sea bird Ribot and Secretariat the best 3 horses of all time they would of destroyed Frankel . Frankel was brilliant on a par with Nijinsky Montjeu Hurricane Run and Dancing Brave but he was not in the same league as the three i mentioned...

[@Czerniakowska]

The unbeatable Ribot would probably have had the edge on them both, though I would also include Golden Fleece and Lammtarra in any list of the greatest 3year olds ever over a mile and a half.

[@ASupremeOwl]

I've been watching racing full time since 1984 and I haven't seen a horse in that time that would have beaten Frankel over any trip, Im pretty certain Frankel would have stayed 1m4f easily as a 4 year old. On his last start he was taking on a horse who had won his last 5 starts on ground with soft/heavy in the description by an aggregate of 30+ lengths (Cirrus Des Aigles) a horse who actually holds the course record at Ascot for the 1m2f course on good ground and Frankel gave him 5 lengths..

[@gordonhamilton727]

Shame his trainer Henry Cecil didn't agree with you.

[@kurman4749]

You are making inflated claims about Frankel that you cannot possibly back up. Frankel was a brilliant miler, but he never raced beyond 10 furlongs. If Cecil believed that he would have been good enough to win a Derby then why didn't he enter him in the race? Stick to facts not conjecture.

[@davidfoster2006]

All conjecture Frankel never beat a great horse or a mile and a half Sea Bird would on all know form hammered Frankel at that distance.

[@ASupremeOwl]

What an horse....

[@alwaysfair4991]

He was fairly lighty raced. He never raced at a mile G1 race as a three year old.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@rananim3 Secretariat's heart size, though unusual, was not unique. His great rival, Sham, also had an enlarged heart, as did Australian champion, Phar Lap, and Arkle - the great jump horse of all. Secretariat was defeated on five occasions - once by four lengths, and when he had every chance of winning.

[@ASupremeOwl]

from the gate and a beating. It might not have been impressive on the eye but it was certainly one of his best performances espcially when you take into account how he took apart a Gr1 field in the Juddmonte International on good ground putting 7 lengths between himself and a 2 horses who have just recently one Gr1's in the space of a furlong. I just haven't seen a horse like Frankel since I've been watching racing, His all round ability and the way he basically set...

[@BullOnSilver]

@ASupremeOwl it is the way Sea Bird beat quality field time after time that makes him far superior to Frankel.

[@paulnewman3282]

Not on timeform ratings mate lol

[@Billdick360]

@@paulnewman3282 Frankle never won the Derby or the Ark. Great horse Frankle but not sure he deserves to be higher rated given he beat the same horses over and over, like Excalibration for example.

[@paulnewman3282]

@@Billdick360 excalibration was a great horse too ..Frankel was a total freak ...winning on the bridle ...greatest ever by a country mile

[@paulnewman3282]

@@Billdick360 excalibration was a great horse too ..Frankel was a total freak ...winning on the bridle ...greatest ever by a country mile

[@kurman4749]

@@paulnewman3282 Frankel rated on his wins over a mile and 10 furlongs, when he never contested the championship races such as the Derby and Arc. Timeform have come in for huge criticism of their ratings and rightly so.

[@ronanshalloe2422]

El Gran Senor beating Frankel over a mile? Good question. I think if Frankel had run the mile the way he did in the 2,000 Guineas then El Gran would have mugged him easily in the final furlong..

[@ASupremeOwl]

'' "I don't know what else you can say about him, it's like looking at a piece in a museum. I just watch him and I think he's the best there's been. He has a combination of power and charm and has a great personality - For me Mill Reef was the ultimate thoroughbred so far but Frankel is better," I mean does praise get any higher than that? Surely Timeform aren't completely wrong with there estimation of Frankel...

[@Delroy444]

I prefer my horse racing champions to not be drugged up to the eyeballs, so I'm not listening to arguments that America's greatest would beat Europe's greatest, simply because they don't compete on a level playing field. As for Sea Bird being some sort of wonder horse, I have difficulty with that too. I keep hearing what an impressive Derby winner he was, but Shergar, and Troy, were more impressive in my view. Hawk wing is a classic example of people getting carried away by one performance.

[@kurman4749]

If you think Shergar and Troy's Derby wins were better than Sea Bird's then you are a very poor judge of a racehorse. Both Shergar and Troy were winners of very poor Derbies and achieved nothing after their Derby wins.

[@george474747]

The Arc footage is in slow motion. It's weird to watch.

[@ASupremeOwl]

I think Nijinsky's rating was a fair one, He was a great horse in a pretty average 3 year old classic season...

[@147ard]

I agree, sea bird was top class, but 145 is a bit high when he was so lightly raced, and Shergar was a better derby winner, Ribot won the arc by more and DB had better turn of foot.

[@kurman4749]

Shergar won a very poor Derby

[@tigerarmyrule]

It's important to remember that all horses are fallible. Even the truly stellar ones. Mill Reef lost at Newmarket, The Brigadier lost at York. Sea Bird himself lost in the Grand Criterium. Secretariat lost several races. Nijinsky lost at Longchamp....they are all fallible. What marks Sea Bird is the bizarre ease with which he cantered along.

[@ronanshalloe2422]

I agree.Nijinsky never won a race by more than two and a half lengths. Racing is a competitive sport and it's about winning races and achieving things. He did something that no other horse in the modern error has achieved. He passed every test set a racehorse and captured the imagination of the sporting public. Timeform dismiss him because he never won by long distances.. But why should he? It's competitive. You win or you don't!

[@bgardiner2000]

@dinerouk They do now.

[@ASupremeOwl]

No horse in the history of racing would have beaten Frankel at Royal Ascot 2012, Nor would any horse in the history of racing have beaten Frankel at York in the Juddmonte International 2012...

[@andrewblackie7170]

Bookies must've felt a bad sting & the French Bookies too.

[@ThefightingCelt]

rschumann - You post ur bile under the premise that racing fans this side of the pond had never heard of Secretariat or his great achievements. I remember Big Red's triple crown very well. He was a great horse, of that there is little doubt. It is foolish to compare a dirt US champ with a European champ such as Sea Bird. If you are looking for versatility and greatness, look no further than Nijinsky, who won the British Triple Crown at distances of 8 furlongs, 12 furlongs to 14 furlongs.

[@GiuliaVardabasso]

What do you mean he wasn't a success in stud? Did he not produce the great Allez France or the winner of 2/3rds of the American TC Little Current?

[@tigerarmyrule]

@TicinoParadise Good point. rcshumann is correct in point up SBs pedigree but the hints of nationalism in his comments fail to take the point that ultimately if you trace those bloodlines far enough you'll find non American horses.

[@dinerouk]

@rananim3 We don't count US horses. sniff

[@FORESTDONS]

That's your opinion and people do remember recent times much more than past. My opinion won't change because i've been watching it long enough to know the difference.The rating is nothing but manipulated,Rating has always favoured classic winners and the only classic frankel won is the guineas.My classic's has guineas,derby,king george and arc.Leger is not everybody's cup of tea so it can't be considered the best among the best.You can't be certain without the horses racing each other.

[@BullOnSilver]

I wasn't around when sea bird raced but having warched his races on the youtube, i agree with astute judges here that sea bird is far superior to Frankel. I have lost all respect for timeform.

[@kurman4749]

Most people have, mate.

[@Delroy444]

Sea Bird, Secretariat, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Man O War, you name who you like, put them in a mile race against Brigadier Gerard and he'd destroy the lot of them.

[@manikato75]

THE RED TERROR Phar lap would have Sea Bird covered

[@ASupremeOwl]

How is Sea Bird far superior to Frankel? Any many times did he win over a 8f or 10f?

[@quidnunc2436]

Fucking imbecile. You must have been dropped on your head when you were a baby.

[@kurman4749]

How many times did Frankel win over 12 furlongs? NEVER!

[@FORESTDONS]

They have stated and it might be true but we will never know. I saw the great brigadier in flesh when he beat mill reef and my swallow. That acceleration after the dip is just magical.I have never seen a horse change gear like BG did in the guineas.It was like from 3th gear straight to turbo charge and even then mill reef and my swallow was not beaten far. That's because of their class and sorry to say but i have no respect for timeform anymore.

[@bgardiner2000]

@Nautilus1972 Time is only important if you're in jail. The rest of that super field all ran 7 seconds slower don't forget... and he still gapped them like claimers. Time is only a superficial measure of greatness. Have a look for a horse called Mandurah. You may have never heard of him, as he was only a claimer last season. In June last year he ran a world record for 1 mile on any surace (1:31.25) at Monmouth. Surely that would make him the greatest miler that ever lived?? Hardly.

[@tigerarmyrule]

The fact is we don't know what Sea Bird could do. The Derby was slow but times in horse races are irrelevant. What matters is the comfort with which the classic is won. Both Sea Bird nd Nijinsky won their Derbies with remarkable ease. I actually agree that I rate nijinsky at least as high. Timeform is not bulletproof. EG Mill Reef was at least the equal of the Brigadier in my view and not 3 lbs inferior.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@SECRETARIATANDALUZ Shove Secretariat where the sun doesnt shine. Not in the calibre of some of Europes past champions, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave just to name a few!

[@ASupremeOwl]

@ForestDons... I respect your opinion as Ive seen a few of your comments on videos and you clearly know your stuff. But even Ian Balding as stated Mill Reef wouldnt have beat Frankel at any distande and Im pretty certain Mill Reef would have beat the Brigadier over 10 furlongs. And come on El Gran Senor beatimg Frankel over a mile?

[@davidfoster2006]

Sea Bird beat great horse as good as Frankel was he beat only average horses

[@rananim3]

Well,this is all very civilized but the greatest racehorse EVER was Secretariat.You can have your Sea Bird as the greatest turf champion if you like but NO HORSE could have beat Big Red at Belmont 73.His acceleration on the 1st turn at the Preakness is the greatest move by a horse in history.SEC's heart was an estimated 22 lbs!Beat that!

[@FORESTDONS]

Yes,My bad there for forgetting that one but timeform is not entirely unguilty.Going back to BHA where they downgraded DB rating and made frankel the highest rated now.How is this possible after 30 years?They even dare to say that it was something to do with the retirement of a senior steward.LOL..Timeform meanwhile gave the highest rating to a horse who has not won over the classic distance or traveled out of the country.I guess then BC deserves as much as frankel for staying unbeaten in 25.

[@RandyWatson69]

Seabird and Secretariat both great great horses.But i wouldnt be able to split them had they ever raced against each other.To say one is better than the other is futile. One thing i would say had they raced over 12f on turf and seabird was within 2-3 lengths with 2 furlongs to goi believe he would have accelerated past him...but it would have been big if just to be within 2 -3 lengths of Big Red.So lets just appreciate 2 legendary horses,rather than bickering and squabbling.

[@christdalospeedy]

Look up Christdalo on you tube to see her races- maybe we should have gone flat racing with her,sadly she got injured on her first run in Cheltenham and never really recovered from her injury, Christdalos 1st foal is in training in David Pipes Yard. Christdalo was a multiple point to point National hunt flat and Hurdle winner she is also a half sister to the high class hurdler Broadway Buffalo who won his first 5 races in David Pipes Yard. Christdalos first foal sold to David Pipes Yard,won first time out(Lady of Longstone) Christdalos 2 year old colt by Oscar and her yearling filly out of Gold Well were both sold privately. Contact David Crimmins on 086 -2429438 for further details. Christdalo is now in foal to Mahler son of the great sire Galileo from Coolmore stud,due to foal in may 2015

[@arvindprakashmathur6064]

Harzand Epsom Derby .

[@dnjljjess]

what about another champion sea the stars

[@ASupremeOwl]

I think it was the BHA that downgraded Dancing Brave and not Timeform. Looking back on the 80's the IFHA regulary had horses in the world on a rating above 125, In the past 5 years that figure as shrunk to 10 or 11 which just shows how ratings have become more stringent and why it was seen that Dancing Braves rating was possibly over-inflated. Lets not forget they have been rating racehorses year in year out since ratings began which I believe where about the mid 70's (I could be wrong)

[@ASupremeOwl]

@rcschumann Sea Bird would have destroyed Secretariat at 1m 4f. Deal with it and jog on...

[@ASupremeOwl]

How is he far superior? Frankel never raced over 1m4f so how do we know? As time as gone on the thoroughbred as got stronger and faster. Sea Bird's race times are nothing to shout about either - Camelot last years Derby winner won the race a full 5 seconds quicker than Sea Bird on similar ground, And Camelot wouldn't get within a furlong of Frankel. Frankel would have buried Sea Bird over a mile and a mile and quarter very easily. Sea Bird raced over further so explain how he is superior?

[@ronanshalloe2422]

It's hard to understand what you mean by taking the thoroughbred to a higher level when you're talking about a horse who never travelled outside England, was restricted to a range of 2 furlongs (i mile to 1.2) and only met a handful of high class horses.

[@crashdavis721]

Exactly, just like Winx in Australia. Easier to beat up on low quality fields and not travel than put your balls on the line and test yourself against the best in the world

[@rananim3]

@ThefightingCelt He was beaten because he was handled by humans.I love all horses and Sea Bird was for sure top FIVE of all time.But nothing beats Secretariat,nothing.Timeform are wrong.

[@Nautilus1972]

@bgardiner2000 As Sea Bird's Derby time was a colossal 7 seconds slower than Workforce's time last year, he is hardly in the reckoning for all-time best discussions.

[@kurman4749]

If you knew anything about horse racing you would know that times mean absolutely nothing. Would you consider Workforce a better horse than Sea The Stars or Mill Reef? You rely too much on the clock which gives you a false idea of the relative merits of a racehorse's ability.

[@rananim3]

Please help.The Derby is a flat race and time is key.Why was this one of the greatest Derby wins when his time is a good +10secs off the current record????????????????Je comprends pas.Io no comprendo.Ich verstehe nicht.Bit of a hulllaballo about nothing if you ask me.Top 20 horse at best.

[@georgebrown8049]

i am with frankel and cecil henry did rightly not overworking him because -now-the horse is a good stallion and down his blood line we might be able to see one of his kind i totally disagree to race fully a horse because they are not able to have great colts and fillies afterwards and the chance of getting phenomenal animals is reduced. frankel was a very lucky horse having a team seeing a horse life from perspective point of view. if frankel had ruffian s owner as his owner he would be dead or injured or not able to love his mares-so who cares he did not do this and that?greedy betting people with no will to work for their living thank you very much

[@guidogreco341]

bood sire Galileo.....Northern Dancer....and the father of all the greatest horses...NEARCO

[@FORESTDONS]

Timeform has already shot themselves in the foot by downgrading dancing brave's rating.They are not credible enough after what they did to a rating of a horse who raced almost 30 years ago.To downgrade his rating only now is a disgrace and i still think they did not give a fair rating to nijinsky.A triple crown winner on a canter given rating that is lower than horses like harbinger is another disgrace on their part.

[@ASupremeOwl]

Sea Bird never even won a major race over a mile, He won all his races over further. To say hes superior to the likes of even Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Sea the Stars is disrespectful and thats even before you get to Frankel who would have destroyed them all. Wake up people!

[@kurman4749]

You are talking absolute rubbish, which is what you seem to do most of the time.

[@protarget1]

How anyone can compare Seabird or any of the past greats to modern thoroughbreds, especially Frankel, wants to get a lobotomy. Horses are now fitter and faster Did anyone check Seabirds time for the last furlong. Look at the YT vid clock as he passes the 1f pole. It shows 2.16. He crosses the post at 2.30. So Seabird ran the last furlong around 14secs on a course that's downhill for the last 4F. Even allowing him slowing down Max 13secs. That's an average speed of a staggering 34mph. Frankel ran the last 4f in Judd. into a 20mhp headwind, cruising on the bridle in 45.94secs. That's an average speed of 40mph HELLO! That's the beauty of section timing. What looks amazing speed, It confirms whether it was or not. In Seabirds derby it wasn't.

[@quidnunc2436]

You're talking out of your arse. Frankel never ran in the recognized championship races like the Derby and Arc. Frankel, great miler that he was, cannot be compared to the great middle distance horses like Sea Bird, Dancing Brave, Sea the Stars and many others. Shame that you were born upside down, because you talk through your arse and the shit comes out of your mouth.

[@kurman4749]

Frankel would have been crucified in any Derby or Arc. He was a miler

[@protarget1]

@@kurman4749 Where do these clueless posters come from. Any person who has an ounce of knowledge on flat racing, knows for any horse to be able to get 10/12f. or above a horse has to be able to switch of and relax. Frankel was a fiery adult 2/3yr old HC had said before the Derby. He can easily get the 12f. but He's not ready yet, not relaxed enough. It wasn't till he was a 4yr old did he start to relax. When his jockey TQ was asked did he have any problems in any races , he said trying to pull him up Last 2 races. The Judd 10.5f and the Champion Stakes 10f on soft/heavy going on an uphill course all the way. Horses like Dancing Brave were never let anywhere near a track where the going had the word soft in it.

[@ThefightingCelt]

Sea Bird would have beaten Frankel over 12 furlongs - equally, Sea Bird ( who did not win at a mile ) would not have beaten Frankel at his favourite distance. Sir Henry Cecil has always maintained that Frankel would not stay a mile and a half. He was right not to send his great colt to France.

[@FORESTDONS]

I do agree with what your saying about frankel but he can't be a equine perfection simply because he has won over 7-10f..That is what i am disputing as the media is portraying him as the greatest ever and the rating is just a hype.I have nothing against frankel but he is over rated simply because he is running in modern era.The hype surrounding BG,mill reef and my swallow's race was much bigger and BG did not even start as fav.That hype was proven over time and stood the test of time.

[@FORESTDONS]

Ratings are flawed and everyone knows it.Sea bird and ribot is one of the greatest horses to ever run on european turf.Frankel is just over glorified as brigadier gerard has much more greater claim for a mile greatness.I like frankel but he is overhyped imo.There is no one horse as great as mill reef that frankel has beaten in his career.Brigadier gerard,mill reef and el gran senor would have broken frankel's heart in the guineas if he had gone that fast against those kind of opponent.

[@FORESTDONS]

Nothing wrong with your opinion on frankel but he is not the greatest. No one horse can be said the greatest since they raced in different generations. My heart will always say ribot is the greatest but that is also up for debate,Same for sea bird,Nijinsky,BG,Mill reef,DB,lamantarra,dayjur,Dubai millenium,sea the stars or frankel. What for me is the greatest would not be for you or anyone else so it's all about respecting the champion's as they don't come too often.

[@johngilly28]

i am bored with yanks cracking on about secretariat on here!!! yes he was a good horse, but the fact is yank horses run the same way round flat tracks and gallop, to win around europe horses come across undulating tracks ( and even run clock-wise, longchamp) like epsom and i tell you now secretariat would not win an english derby due to this. the adaptability of european champions like sea bird, nijinsky, dancing brave and shergar and sts who all had a turn of foot american horse dont have!!!