In the Prog Seat: Criminally Underrated, Misunderstood, Or Do These Albums Just Plain Suck? (Part 2)

[@alternativepreacher4516]

Very touching and sincere takes from Luis about the Final Cut and about what music is all about, incredible, this episode was 11/10.

[@NaughtyVampireGod]

and the other two guys who support the album

[@davebrody9315]

Luis is bang on point imo.

[@nikolademitri731]

💯

[@mikevillain666]

That discussion about "The Final Cut", especially between Louis and Ken, is among the best I've ever seen on SoT.

[@johansoderberg6546]

I generally really like Ken's insights, but i thought he used too many low blows directed at Luis in this particular discussion.

[@mikevillain666]

@@johansoderberg6546 Well, obviously, he didn't want to go that deep, but it was plain to see that Louis' first statement was absolutely crushing. Quite impossible to counter that.

[@kramnosenhoj]

Ken is sarcastic. That is his world. I guarantee he respects Louis. I say this because I’m a sarcastic guy and I understand his vocabulary.

[@kengolden666]

@@johansoderberg6546 No anger. I love Luis. Its all done in good fun. We go back and forth all the time. All part of the show.

[@kengolden666]

@@kramnosenhoj U get it.

[@treycarmichael3605]

god bless Luis and his straight talk on The Final Cut. Moreso his reminders of why we listen and respond to music which in turn causes us to debate these works of art so many years later. and cheers raised to all of you for talking about important historical art and giving it renewed life and interest! always fun to listen

[@blamelouis]

Luis’s analysis of The Final Cut was so impassioned and heartfelt it touched me greatly. As someone from Ireland the hatred and disbelief at Thatchers actions at the time was explosive . And Gilmour has stated since retrospectively that he had no material for the album and Waters needed to vent about the crazy war mongering of Thatcher who used the deaths of young men to get re-elected and support her policy of destroying mining communities. Thank you Luis.

[@lahloonatic]

Thank YOU!

[@lahloonatic]

I went to a British school in Mexico. Thatcher and the Faulklands was something I could NOT avoid at the time. I also owe a great debt of gratitude to a Scottish teacher I had called Gordon Gylchrist. He mentored me in many ways, curated my early exposure to music and is directly responsible for me being a Physicist, in spite of the fact I wanted to do Art O level and he was not only my form teacher but the art teacher too. Told me to do physics. Never told Steven this, but its true: I have a warm place in my heart for Scotland.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@lahloonatic This I did not know Luis. 👍

[@maddysmith8846]

@@TranquilityFireReid Time @Luis Nasser visited I think!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@maddysmith8846 Absolutely!

[@SydBarrettArchives]

I'm so happy someone FINALLY brought up the reason Rick was a hired hand on The Wall and excluded from The Final Cut.... he was having coke issues and couldn't do what he needed to. This always gets overlooked and blamed on Roger. And don't get me wrong, I love Rick, I love all of them. But Waters was the only one bringing enough material to the table in the later years, so you get a Waters heavy album or 5.... Thank you Luis for making a big point. Oh, funny side note, I've done The Final Cut at karaoke, NEVER do that song at karaoke unless you wanna bring down the whole place lol.

[@garyh.238]

Great episode this evening - vigorous, stimulating debates, especially in re The Final Cut. Thoroughly enjoyable and educational as well! Well done to all!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Gary

[@Martroid]

The discussion here on The Final Cut makes this one of the best SOT episodes ever ... brilliant stuff, guys 🤘👽🤘

[@Jermeister12]

Hell yeah!!!😀I've only heard it because the Cobb County Ga library had it 😀.GODAWFUL😀

[@matweb8195]

Funny how The Final Cut causes so much hot air. One can only imagine what it was actually like in the band, lol.

[@ericporter344]

Truth 😂 would not wanted to have been at those sessions

[@tmc1054]

As always the Prog Seat delivers. An articulate panel discussing their passion, you can't go wrong. Thank you, gents. p.s. The Final Cut is an intimate fully exposed work of art, it is beautifully flawed but harshly viewed because of the peerless work before it.

[@snowdog87]

Didn't get riled enough to comment til ya'll got to The Final Cut Mr Reid ..etal I am with you. Love this album But , then I feel That Amused to Death is good as anything Floyd ever did This album criminally underrated and misunderstood Love Roger his lyrics and his political activism Love that he gives a shit

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I am with you 100% there snowdon.

[@lahloonatic]

Agreed.

[@paulh6673]

Well one thing this episode did was inspire me to listen to The Final Cut for the very first time. I am just a casual consumer of Pink Floyd. I enjoyed Luis' description/defence and Steven's perspective. Without having heard it, I was nodding along with their points, as in theory I agreed with their take on Waters and the concept of people having issues with what it is not, rather than what it actually is. Now I've actually heard it I'd say almost everyone on the panel had valid points. It's actually very good for a lot of of runtime, and sometimes quite trying, and also a little bit boring. I can see why it's a divisive album anyway but just after one listen I'm definitely falling down on the positive side. Entertaining discussion anyway!

[@bradleystone2623]

I agree with Mike below...one of the best episodes yet. Great discussion. I'd like to focus in on Genesis "And Then There Were Three". First of all, you all made some excellent points - great comments by the whole panel. I think I've made comments about this album before, so forgive me if I repeat myself. I think it is a rather misunderstood album, and underrated. I have to say I love this album. There are still a couple of great prog tunes by Tony: "The Lady Lies" and "Burning Rope" (I wish they had kept "Burning Rope" at its original length. I seem to remember that it was originally 10 or 11 minutes long, and they cut it down. A bad edit can be heard on the original album mix). "Deep in the Motherlode" is a great song - I heard it at 3 a.m. on the radio, driving west across western Nebraska on my way to Boulder, that was surreal! In fact, I really love all the songs on this album, with the exception of "Follow You, Follow Me", which is rather lame. But to say this was a transitional album for them into a more pop oriented band I think is where this album is misunderstood. First of all, they tried writing pop tunes right from the very first album, and Tony always expressed he wanted to be able to do that. But for me, "Abacab" was the album that was the big transitional record (which I was really disappointed in) and "Invisible Touch" was the clincher. I know that Mike is no Steve on the lead guitar, but I feel like what he did on ATTWT was effective, in the context. I'll say something sacrilegious, as much as I love Steve and his playing, I always sensed that he was a bit of an outlier in the band, a junior member. Major contributor and brilliant play, yes of course, but I feel like there is a bit of a revisionist history going on, especially with him doing the Genesis material on recent tours. Speaking of tours, I saw the tour for this album (1978, I believe it was, Assembly Hall, Bloomington, IN), and it was excellent! Tony had the ARP 2300 on stage, along with the Yamaha baby electric grand for the first time. Perhaps this album came off better live. One thing I'm not big on with ATTWT is the sound on this album - it's rather compressed and saturated. Would love for a fresh mix and mastering, don't think Steven Wilson will ever get asked to do it, though. One comment about "The Final Cut" - no Rick Wright, it's not a Pink Floyd album, to me. Cheers, guys, great job!!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Bradley, enjoyed reading your comments

[@zakkhale181]

Excellent Panel, excellent episode. Great insight and discussion. Louis is the man!

[@noohoozfurra]

Well...is it entirely possible that 'In The Prog Seat' can keep getting better and better? Hell yes! Absolutely magnificent show. Best yet, for me...and I have said that before!! Brilliant insight and commentary, from everyone. As for Luis impassioned defence/critique/ love for The Final Cut...one of the most affecting and perceptive examples of rhetoric on music, I can recall hearing...probably ever...outstanding work guys... 👏👏👏

[@davebrody9315]

Totally Agree

[@noohoozfurra]

@@davebrody9315 Cheers, Dave...

[@johnhenfrey5936]

Luis agree with you 100% about The Final Cut Album. Rock Island saw Tull on tour promoting this album, bought the album but not played it in years. Genesis it’s an album that’s just ok. E.L.P. I own a few of their albums but never heard this particular album. A big thanks to all that took part, a truly great show.

[@alder456]

Cheers Proggers. Really great show. I agree with Luis 100%. The Final Cut is a misunderstood masterpiece. I lost my Marine corp. father and I can’t get through it without tears. This is not for casual listening fans who dismiss it.

[@interstellardave]

It seems that The Final Cut is the best album, artistically, of the ones on this show… the reason being, it completely split the panel! It was loved, and hated, no in-between. That’s the sign of something truly artistic. For the most part the other albums got a more uniform lukewarm response. Interesting.

[@zachary1966]

well said!

[@ericporter344]

Great point

[@jimmorson9117]

So true,this is why I read these.your point here is bullseye😀

[@luciusblackwood2640]

Great show! I saw Brit Floyd last week and they covered The Gunner's Dream and it was fantastic mixed in with all those other Floyd songs. Yeah, I never loved the Final Cut back in the day but I'm appreciating a lot more now.

[@seethroughhead505]

Wonderful comments from Luis about The Final Cut.

[@rubenheredia1957]

I think that And Then There Were Three is a much better album than I expected; very much like Yes's Drama, it was a such a splendid, smooth transition to 80s Pop-Prog, and an epic closure to the Prog years.

[@Arutha_Con_Doin]

I could see this topic also being discussed within the Hudson Valley Squares with metal albums. Like Iron Maiden - X Factor, Judas Priest - Turbo, Metallica - Load, Dio - Angry Machine. Or with rock/hardrock albums like AC/DC - Fly on the Wall, Thin Lizzy - Chinatown, Alice Cooper - Constrictor, Kiss - The Elder

[@nigelelliott4901]

Up until today my cut-off point for Pink Floyd was The Wall, an album I like a lot but at the time I was heavily into post-punk & didn't know anyone who was staying abreast of new Floyd. After your show, I had to give The Final Cut a try. One listen in & to me it sounds like a great (depressing) Rodge-heavy Falklands War Floyd album. (A lyrical compare & contrast with what Crass was saying in 1983 would reveal plenty of similarities.) I might have to go out & buy it. Luis is an honorary Brit, btw. He's totally in tune with our (depressing) sense of humour. Don't know if that's a Mexican thing or a Luis thing. (ATTWT sucks, my cut-off point for Tull is Stormwatch & everything after Brain Salad Surgery is fat dog's anal gravy.) Great show, chaps.

[@greghansell5115]

I like 'Rock Island', even more so than 'Crest of a Knave'...it's a good hard rock album...I remember back in the day really liking 'Heavy Water' and 'The Whaler's Dues'. Being a flautist myself, I can appreciate this album and Ian's great flute solos. Having said that, I would agree that their earlier stuff is way better, especially the so-called Folk Rock trilogy of albums and even 'Broadsword and the Beast'...

[@gregoryslomba9719]

Rock Island always seemed to me to be a response to their infamous hard rock Grammy. It was Ian saying , right, you say we're not metal/hard rock, well here's a hard rock album.

[@darrendohertymusic]

I've been cooked up in a studio and missed all the content for a week but to come back to THIS episode reminded me why I come here so often. Great lively debate and well argued points of view. Chads face got really red during the Waters / Gilmore discussion, I thought he might turn purple at one point - terrific entertainment.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching

[@IsothermeMusic]

Revisiting this. God I love this episode. I dig any episode with Luis and Steven and, even though I disagree violently with Ken’s opinion on 80s Rush, his input is always informative and entertaining.

[@drewrose374]

Thanks Luis, I am definitely going back and paying closer attention to the lyrics of Rock Island, and I always liked The Final Cut and I'm going back to it with a different ear.

[@samvetrano2867]

One of the best episodes yet. I love the passion of the panelists. Luis Nasser must respect. I agree 💯 about Roger and The Final Cut. I could watch Luis all day talk about music. Thanks as always Pete for the great content. SOT IS THE BEST CHANNEL ON KZbin.

[@tadpoleslamp]

Miguel; I love the way you express your opinion better than anyone on in the prog seat, and I guess I'll try listening to the final cut 1 more time, but I think it's crap as a Floyd, or a Waters solo album.

[@VincentBautista365]

Honesty l've never cared about these albums...I don't own them. They never sparked any interest to my ears. In saying that, they are works of art by bands that we love. We forget that these people are artists staring at a blank piece of paper like a painter stares at a blank canvas. The creative process can be a pain in the butt. As an artist myself for 35 years my style has changed several times, sometimes for good and sometimes not. When buying a painting or music, it all comes down to what we like and what we don't like. This was a great show and a fantastic discussion. My favorite show on SOT! Thanks guys! 😉

[@briankellogg2751]

I personally find The Final Cut hard to listen to, but it has more to do with the sparse musicality on it (much like a lot of Pros and Cons). Got to meet David Gilmour on the U.S. leg of the About Face tour and asked him why it was that British musicians can create a higher level of music compared to U.S. musicians and his answer was pretty interesting. He said: "because you've never had bombs dropped on your home over here". That just about says it all. Great show, as usual, guys!

[@NaughtyVampireGod]

I don't understand the US vs. UK thing . . and i don't understand David's comment.

[@TheCDGuyJZ]

I love The Final Cut. It's more of a Roger solo project than anything else, but the songs are super underrated and the atmosphere is incredible. Floyd's most underappreciated album in my opinion.

[@jmascisss]

Absolutely - I think it comes down to if you're a Waters or Gilmour man.

[@sspbrazil]

I concur.

[@zachary1966]

I love it too - a perfect headphone album. Very underrated, clever and soulful album too overall imo.

[@theclassicrockjunkie7353]

Not a favorite of mine from Pink Floyd but I do like it and have to be in the mood for it, there is a lot of melody on it and my favorite tune on it is Not Now John it just rocks and wish David contributed to the album more.

[@bryanmcfadden4071]

I read a recent article that Rogers and Waters are talking again about a reassembly, it was on my Google news , not on Facebook or KZbin that I've checked , I didn't clickbait it, but maybe 🤔

[@747jono]

2 hrs plus show guys amazing thank you thoroughly entertaining 👏.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks jonathan

[@SJHUE]

Great video guys very pleased to hear mostly positive comments on `And Then There Were Three`. This has been in my top 3 Genesis albums for over forty years now and I`ve always believed it to be underrated. Of course Mike Rutherford is no Steve Hackett (who is?!)but...for a beginner to the six string Mike`s solo on `Burning Rope` is fantastic and I love it! I also would like to mention the underlying power in `Undertow` which I think is sensational!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching! Definitely underrated for me, quite a few memorable songs that stand up in Genesis catalogue

[@terryjohnson5275]

Great discussion - I'm going to view these from when I bought them to how I see them now. And Then There Were 3 - at the time it was the new Genesis and they had a song in the charts so you could see them on Top of the Pops. The single is a bit of an anomaly against the rest of the album as most of it to me follows through from the previous two. I do agree that they should have used a different guitarist or even a number of them - maybe not necessarily for the whole album but for some of the songs - I believe Tony Banks has said since that he thought had Steve Hackett been on it could have been better. Black Moon - at the time it was the great return of the mighty ELP and I received it pretty well, though it didnt totally wow me - I was a bit disappointed that they didnt do more with Romeo and Juliet. Today I like around a third of it - and about the same for the follow up so I'd say there's an ok to good LP length album that can be made from them. I tend to agree with Steven though in that if they had called it a day after Ladies and Gentlemen (with the exception of ELPowell which I do like a lot, because it was Emerson back doing what I wanted to hear him doing) I wouldn't be too bothered - though again at the time in 1977 to have a new ELP album was an event for me. Rock Island - Apart from having a tape of their MSG 78 live in concert Crest of a Knave was my first Tull album, bought on tape as was Rock Island afterwards. I liked it, yes its more of a heavy rock album with Dire Straits influences but I dont mind that, my preference now though is for everything from Stand up through to Broadsword. For me I was a bit late to the Tull party but I've made up for it since. The Final Cut - I bought it on tape at the time and hated it for many of the reasons outlined in the show - no Rick, not enough Dave, very downbeat and a bit miserable sounding. However I then bought Amused to Death (principally because it has Jeff Beck on it - and here I'd politely disagree with Ken in that I think he made great use of him, though I appreciate that I'm probably wrong on that but thats what I think) and loved it, so decided to go back to The Final Cut and at that time I started to get more into it. Then around two or three years ago I finally really got it - it took me the best part of 26 /27 years to get there but finally I did and now I think its a great if not fantastic album. I tend to share Steven's view that its a Roger solo album and that it has Dave on it as a guest, but I can see where Luis is coming from in maintaining that yes it is a Pink Floyd album, and would agree that if David Gilmour's Momentary lapse of Reason is considered Floyd then so should The Final Cut - they're the two sides of the coin that together made Animals, Wish You Were Here and Dark Side masterpieces. I just now prefer Roger's output. And Chad - i'm not a huge fan of The Wall either, I think its bloated and overrated and it could have been a phenomenal single album or if it had come out and add the CD age a 60 minute piece. Then when they did it live they could have extended it. And in answer to Pete's question there are some bits of The Final Cut that I do think you can only really appreciate if you are British and started your working life in the 80's - and without wanting to get too political I'll not expound on any diatribe against Maggie Thatcher save to say that in the UK we are still today suffering the consequences of some of her government's policies (although that's not to say any of the other political parties are and have been really any much better!). And Luis is absolutely right to point out that its against the futility of any war, and it shows contempt for warmongers, which still unfortunately has huge relevance and resonates today.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Well said Terry. I was making the same political point with someone on twitter today. Great post my friend.

[@sdrandazzo]

Another excellent show Pete and the ITPS gentlemen... great range of insights that make this the best SoT show imho. Love the Final Cut (misunderstood by many), not familiar with ELP album but would say it is generally misunderstood because of previous expectations of the their greater work, the Genesis album imho is misunderstood the beginning of the slide for them and imho the JT Rock Island generally sucks musically compared to the previous 70s efforts.

[@jeffswanson3740]

I’m on board with The Final Cut. Love that album 💿

[@JIF882]

Listened to Rock Island today on Spotify(I don't own the cd). To me, it seems to marry Tull's early Blues sound to their later Prog sound. To me, Ian's singing at the beginning of Rattlesnake Trail reminds me of Dave Mustaine for some reason. I have always liked ...And Then There Were Three. No, Genesis did not consciously make a pop album. They made an album of shorter songs to have more variety, and to get more ideas on an album. I like Follow You Follow Me. It started out as a fusion-type piece ala Los Endos. Then, Mike wrote some words. I like that Tony uses the organ as the main instrument on that song. I see ATTWT as a similar album to the previous two studio albums, except with shorter songs. I like The Final Cut. Somber and Moody. Yes, I have read in a couple of music reference books that it was made up of some unused ideas from The Wall. That's why the Wall era song When The Tigers Broke Free was added to later reissues. The album even references the war, and Roger's dad like The Wall. I remember reading something from one of Pink Floyd's first managers(Andrew King) asking why does Roger keep whining about Syd and his dad. Perhaps Dave didn't contribute anything because he couldn't get on with the material. Inspired by this video, I decided to pull out Black Moon(ELP). I dig it. Changing States sounds like film music. I would say that ATTWT is underrated, and The Final Cut misunderstood

[@muldoon67]

Pete, that comment about the UK 'getting' the Final Cut, was just what I was thinking, and I did want to hear what Steven had to say (although he may have just missed it growing up). I wonder if sometimes the folks in the US have a slightly 'polished/romantic' idea of what the UK was like in the mid-late 70s. It was basically a shit hole in many places. We had 3 channels on our TVs. TV shut down by 11pm. Huge amounts of people out of work. Coal miners striking. Race riots. Shops closed on Sundays. Petrol rationing. 3 day working week. Many cities still had slum areas and bomb damaged buildings from WW2 (Steven could probably back me up about areas of Glasgow at the time). This is built into our DNA. From this we got Punk, Monty Python etc. P.S. The wall is a top 20 album for me. We love our misery.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

You are absolutely correct David. The angst and anger from Waters perfectly captures Britain at the time, and yes, while I lived through it, I was a little too young to really understand. That said, it was obvious that this was not a happy country at the time and if anyone wanted to convey that within an album it was never going to be an easy listen. Great post.

[@glennschupner6493]

I love this topic. Please do a part 3

[@timhewtson6212]

I have loved much of Pink Floyd over the years. Not, in all honesty, much of the Syd Barrett stuff, but more or less everything after that, with a slight distaste for 'Dark Side of the Moon' because it's so slick. I only recently heard 'The Final Cut,' and I really loved it. Commercial it is not, but I see it as a necessary counter-balance to 'Dark Side of the Moon' - they do the lush stuff and then there is something astringent, something that resets your palate. The whole Waters vs. Gilmour thing is very similar to the Lennon vs. McCartney thing: do you like it salty stuff or sugary? Gilmour's guitar work is stunningly beautiful and Waters' concepts are spiky, challenging, meaningful. Hopefully, there would be synchronicity, but then there are egos. Not mentioned is that this is a very British album, suffused with the guilt of colonialism and unnecessary violence to maintain a position of dominance in the world. America hasn't quite got there yet, but it is getting there fast. This is a British conversation between those Brits who are absolutely repulsed by the Empire and those who are proud of it. This is a long-standing conversation in Britain, exemplified by Brexit, similar to the US hamster wheel of abortion. Americans are still saying, "Thank you for your service" to veterans, whereas many Brits view soldiers as oppressors and murderers of the weak and vulnerable (and usually non-White). Waters is a radical; Gilmour is a conservative, probably somewhat embarrassed by politics altogether. These were the themes Roger Waters was addressing, and, to me they are highly important themes. Do you want to accompany, wrap, such an important discussion in bling? I don't think so. The music on 'The Final Cut' is beautiful, but fragile. It is exactly what it should be. Waters chose to make a non-commercial album to address matters that he really cared about. Pink Floyd, after all, could spare the expense. I, for one, am most grateful that he did. 'The Final Cut' is a truly noble album, stating a message that needs to be heard. Outside music, Waters has continued to make political statements in line with his philosophy. Political music does not always play well (remember Billy Bragg?), but Roger Waters' music remembers to be music as well as being didactic. I applaud him.

[@martinfalk8597]

What an incredible episode! You guys always deliver the goods but this time... this episode was something else! I don't like The Final Cut either but I don't care. The way Louis exposed his opinion of that album was one of the most profund, sincere and determined things I've seen in a long time. Massive respect to you Luis! It's this type of shows that makes this channel so amazing and meaningful to me, why I continue to follow this channel year after year. Massive respect to you guys for delivering quality discussions like this on a weekly basis. It makes my days so much more entertaining and meaningful!

[@ericporter344]

Martin 👍

[@Patrick-sheen]

Luis’ understanding and insights here are simply wonderful. I’m Irish but my grandmother, despite being very much an Irish nationalists, even at the time, was a nurse in England along with her sisters and uncle during WW2. She had lived through the Irish war of independence with Black and Tans raiding her house and later the, nasty and bloody Irish civil war, where we turned against our own, which we never truly got over and which was swept under the carpet in subsequent decades. However, she worked in a hospital looking after war wounded in England, men who were missing limbs, missing facial features, and she sometimes talked about how they would scream and cry out for their families and friends at night. She was highly stoic so I didn’t really take to heart what it was all about as a boy, but she always spoke well of the English people, and said she had been treated very well by them. The setting for Roger Waters’ art is in that anguish. Britain suffered greatly during the war and Roger was born into that. I think Luis really gets that, whereas some of the other commentators have a slightly more blasé approach here, which I can’t help but feel might be connected to their nationalities. Yes, the album may make you feel uncomfortable, as do many of his later works, but that’s essentially the point. Some of the Final Cut maybe doesn’t hold up as well as it might have but there’s no denying some absolute genius at work also. Southampton Dock, Final Cut and the incredible Two Suns…take the emotion out of the conversation and they are utter masterpieces. My grandmother died of cancer in 1986 and was buried in the Irish tricolour. Her uncle had been engaged to be married to an English lady in London when one day he went to visit her and she and the house were no longer there..hit by a German bomb. We still have all the letters and poems the English soldiers wrote to my grandmother..beautifully written in wonderful handwriting. People went through so much back then and I think this album captures something of it. Thank you Luis for an amazing breakdown.

[@YT-wg8vt]

This was one of the best discussions and topics I've had the pleasure of watching on this channel. Great idea for a show!!! Personally, I would love to see more of this topic for other albums discussed. In fact, I would really like to see this same topic applied to the hard rock/metal side of things, say on the Hudson Valley Squares. Off the top of my head, a number of albums would fit the bill for this topic, including: (1) Black Sabbath - Technical Ecstasy (2) Judas Priest - Point of Entry or Turbo (3) Deep Purple - Who Do We Think We Are, Stormbringer, or Come Taste The Band (4) Kiss - Music From The Elder (5) AC/DC - Flick Of The Switch (6) Aerosmith - Draw The Line (7) Dio - Strange Highways (8) Thin Lizzy - Chinatown

[@williamwalker146]

Stephen Reid is such a fantastic album critic. He always introduces obscure, challenging concepts, ones I never would of conceived, but they aren't so incredible that you can't comprehend what he is saying. I love it.

[@stuartdunne1978]

Awesome impassioned show - especially about The Final Cut. Luis's opinion on that is gold - but I can't say I like the Final Cut (I love the Wall) at all. I often go the Momentary Lapse of Reason, especially the remixed version, and Division Bell. I love them too. Luis is not wrong, and his opinion has clear passion and understanding. No-one can ever be wrong about an opinion unless they force others to agree (just my opinion haha).

[@musicalmrbear]

your discussion guys proved once again the ultimate truth about music that everyone will find something to love and that there are no wrong choices only personal choices and no matter what you chose it was a good decision as long as you enjoy listening. thx a lot gents fantastic again , pleasure to see you all. take care .

[@craigsmallman1035]

The Final cut is a great album . & amused to death is one of the best albums ever written. Goodnight.

[@gilesglossop5071]

Stephen's analyses are so lucid, concise and honest, it makes it a joy to watch.

[@laurencegoodwin3430]

Fascinating debate on the Final Cut

[@toddhill7483]

The Final Cut not top shelf Pink Floyd to me, but I definitely appreciate it for what it is. Fascinating discussion.

[@knightvisioniixv]

Though clearly transitional, I love ATTWT. The album sits somewhere in the middle when it comes to my personal catalogue ranking for Genesis. A joke I had heard on more than one occasion was that Emerson, Lake & Palmer's Black Moon (particularly "Farewell to Arms") was music fit for the life insurance commercials frequently seen around that time. Certainly not comparable to the Herculean offerings from the '70s; The pyrotechnics from both Emerson & Palmer are pretty much gone, and Lake's voice had darkened. Were age and attrition contributing factors in some (if not all) of this? Possibly. Either way, BM was one of the first few ELP albums I bought (early-2000's), so there's a soft spot for it (I occasionally heard the title track played on the radio.) "Affairs of the Heart" is my fav song on there (Like Jon, I tend to love ballads.) The Tull album is not bad at all, but I don't find myself reaching for it very often. Frankly, this whole episode could have been dedicated to the Pink Floyd album just to watch Ken and Luis go at it 😜. Many interesting points brought up. It's a touchy subject, so the only thing I will say is that The Final Cut left me cold for eons; A specific video by another content creator was what got me to pull out the disc after years of watching it sit around collecting dust. Clicked; Not among my top faves from the band, but I enjoy it far more these days. Good for certain moods. I suspect what Steven said near the end was probably most accurate when it comes to the album and the whole cultural thing. Long post. Great episode, guys.

[@31LaschG]

Louis Nasser is my new hero!

[@tmc1054]

The Final Cut is a Pink Floyd album. Waters was the dominating creative force during this period and shouldn't have apologise for it. It is authentic, full of conviction, bleak and furious. I say this with reason and in full acceptance of any consequences - if you don't like it, fine. But do not bitch about it because you're too blind or even too privileged to get it.

[@greghansell5115]

'Follow You Follow Me' was the first song I ever heard from Genesis. I loved it then (as a 13 year old, when it was released) and I still love it to this day.

[@stewartconacher6552]

Same for me and so I have a nostalgic affection for A T T W T as it led to me taking an interest in music particularly Prog. I soon learned earlier Genesis albums were far better and it is unlikely to be an album I reach for if I want to listen to Genesis but I do have an affection for it.

[@davidsheppard7317]

Absolute brilliant show guys. One of the best yet. Keep up the great work. 👍👍

[@kimberlywalker3970]

I don't know any of these albums. However, I'm familiar w/your discussions on the Pink Floyd album. I thought it was the most fascinating part of the show. I saw an interview once w/Nick Mason on Life on the Road w/Brian Johnson. What struck me is that Pink Floyd, like The Grateful Dead, is a band that you have to follow from the beginning. I also don't see Pink Floyd's album as having a "concept" because they all have one. Animals, if I'm not mistaken, is based on Animal Farm. And The Wall also based on 1984? Anyway, I think Eric is right. And I think Luis is right. Roger Waters is the kind of guy who wears his opinions on his sleeve. And it makes sense that The Wall and The Final Cut are political albums. I don't think they're meant to be "entertaining" because Pink Floyd isn't that type of band. But I understand Eric's point of view when he's says this album is less enjoyable because he gets less from it than some of the others. And I think Luis is correct in his analysis of the album and the group's dynamic. If Roger intended to make the album about the absurdity of war, then it should be as somber as it is. War sucks, it keeps going and nothing ever seems to get solved. Look at what's going on now. Anyway, isn't a good album supposed to make people think? And, from what I see, this album provoked the most thoughtful discussion out of any the ones you chose. So, I'm also inclined it's a misunderstood album. BTW, thanks for the fascinating discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I might be inclined to listen to The Wall and The Final Cut just see what you're talking about. Also, Ken, nice T-shirt😁

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Kimberly, much appreciated. It’s rare when someone can see both sides regardless of where your opinions fall. Thank you for leaving the comments and watching the show

[@kimberlywalker3970]

@@ericporter344 No problem. Thanks for the interesting discussion. See you next week😊

[@shyshift]

Pete I think that because Hitler was bombing London in the early 1940’s and people had to sleep and work never knowing if they were going to survive 24/7 and Americans didn’t experience that horror. Maybe that’s why they say we don’t understand The Final Cut.

[@ericarmstrong6540]

I agree with Louis' assessment of "The Final Cut": Persons who hate/dislike this album sometimes allow their perceptions of Roger Waters as being a controlling megalomaniac to color their view of the record.

[@superzapper]

I love The Final Cut . From what I read about the recording of this the rest if the band brought absolutely nothing song wise or any ideas and they just ended up recording everything Roger had laid down in demos for this project . The band had a choice Final Cut or Pros and Cons or write some new stuff and they chose The final Cut .

[@JIF882]

Actually, that's when they were working on The Wall. Roger also offered them Hitchhiking

[@keitelavenue2930]

Best ITPS episode ever, IMO. Love the disagreement and the uncomfortable times particularly during the Final Cut discussion. Tension!

[@ericporter344]

Thanks!

[@lasercd7851]

No heat here - only friends giving some good natured back and forth.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@lasercd7851 A great episode of the show to be a part of. Great discussions, strong opinions and some real laughs along the way. A perfect way to spend the wee hours of the morning!

[@kengolden666]

@@TranquilityFireReid Glad you are a part of it.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@kengolden666 Thanks Ken!

[@garycarfagno7910]

What makes this show great, as well as music is when the notes cascade through our ears we all hear something different, not good or bad....just different. This episode reminded me why I love this channel so much. Luis brings such an amazing perspective on not only the lyrical content, but composition, musicianship and band politics. McDonald's......awesome analogy. Passionate and insightful. Stephen has a great way of explaining points on why he likes/dislikes a piece. John added a great deal of key points to the discussion, as well. I understand more clearly why they like what they like. Than Eric, Chad, Ken and Pete give their feedback and i can see so vividly why these discussions are so great. I am in the latter camp on Waters, however I respect these men and their opinions on their love of his music. BTW the back and forth ball busting makes for not only an educational experience, but quite an entertaining one. When these guys make one another piss their pants it is magic. Missed Chuck and Anthony's yellow hoodie....lol.

[@andrewcox904]

Terrific episode. I agree with what most people said about the albums. When there were three brings back high school memories because I was just getting into the Genesis catalogue when I discovered this. The ELP album is not too good. I played it once and then gave it away. Thanks again guys for a great episode.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching Andrew

[@andrewcox904]

@@ericporter344 thank you and the rest of the prog guys. It has gotten me to go back and listen to some albums I have not listened to in a while and also ones I never heard before. I never miss the prog Tuesdays. Thanks

[@ericporter344]

@@andrewcox904 love hearing that! Thanks for watching and supporting SOT

[@timlapalme7027]

I know this was a while ago. Regarding Then there were three-great comments. Very thoughtful and I generally agree. But this was my Genesis onboarding. Grade 9 and full of life’s challenges. So objectively not the best in the Genesis catalog. But for me, it got me through tough times and I will always LOVE this album. So moving and so good. Amen

[@stewartconacher6552]

Another excellent discussion Keep up the good work guys.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks Stewart

[@daanthing6002]

I'm not a Genesis or ELP guy, own some Tull albums and i'm a big fan of the Meddle - Animals period Floyd. Probably none of these albums are for me and i won't be checking them out (just too much music around). But man what an entertaining episode. Interesting, funny and heartfelt (both ways 😅). You've assembled a great group Pete! Thanks.

[@ericporter344]

Thanks!

[@arunsabherwal6256]

To the “Fab Four “ who fussed The Final Cut , urge you all to listen to the song “The Final Cut” (yes there is one which hardly anyone talks about) and listen to Gilmour’s solo at 3:18 , it is one of the most incendiary and emotive of his solos (albeit a short one). On the YT link to the song, please read the numerous comments on the song, album and Roger Waters, which include personnel from the armed forces and then let us see your comments.

[@TheD4VR0S]

I love The Final Cut - lyrically I think it's fantastic, maybe it resonates with me more because I'm a Brit, the Falklands War doesnt mean much for non brits same with for example "You can relax on both sides of the tracks and maniacs dont blow holes in bandsman by remote control" That was an actual terrorist attack on my country. Many say it's more of a Roger solo album and i wouldnt argue with that, but I like rogers solo work.

[@SteveHughesOfficial]

An epic episode indeed. Fantastic stuff. Thank you gentlemen….🤟

[@ericporter344]

Thanks for watching Steve

[@jeffashcraft3777]

No Pink Floyd at all without Roger Waters

[@JIF882]

So, The Final Cut is a Pink Floyd album, even though Dave and Nick are barely on it, and Rick isn't on it at all

[@nectarinedreams7208]

@@JIF882 It was David Gilmour who wanted it to be called Pink Floyd, presumably for financial reasons. The exact same thing happened with Momentary Lapse. That was supposed to be a David Gilmour album yet he was convinced by the label to call it Pink Floyd and profit. The Final Cut has the spirit of Pink Floyd. Momentary Lapse has the spirit of generic AOR and cocaine deals.

[@DamnableReverend]

I'm not from the UK, and I like the Final Cut. I don't think i listen to it enough to say that I love it, but a few of the tracks stuck with me from the very first time I heard the thing. it was my second Pink Floyd album actually, bought on CD in the early 90s when I was quite young and crazy for Dark Side of the Moon. I wanted another Pink Floyd album and I remember standing around in the store agonising for like half an hour over which one to buy, and for some weird reason, choosing this one. I brought it home and, well, it wasn't at all what I was expecting -- yet somehow -- I wasn't really disappointed. I could feel the passion of it right away and the lyrics, actually, really spoke to me. It was dark and sombre and in a way, it just clicked with me even though it wasn't at all what I wanted and yes, I did play Wish you were Here a lot more once I got that one.

[@OMW66]

Great stuff again. I’m not a fan of 3 of these 4. I love «The Final Cut». Bought it the day it came and loved it right away. I love Roger too. Bright guy. Tull is OK, same with Genesis. ELP sucks ass.

[@glennschupner6493]

How about discussing Wishbone Ash - There's The Rub, Uriah Heep - Wonderland, Nektar - Down To Earth, Camel - I Can See your House From Here.

[@scottiedoo8200]

I have all of these albums and my thoughts are as follows; Genesis - can do with out it sucks, ELP - liked it a lot when it came out, some tracks did not age well, the tour for that album was a great time went 3 times, Tull - I've never listened to that album, I enjoyed the previous one Crest of a Knave, will check it out this weekend. Floyd - I enjoy most of Waters solo material, his latest felt disjointed to me, but I enjoy the Final Cut and have to say I hope this series continues. Really enjoyed all the discussion and inter actions with everyone. Great show!!

[@lisandrobrenna9011]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for this series.. you made me realise that i'm not a freak for listening this kind of music (or you are as freak as me, depending on how you look it). I'm from Argentina and I dont't know any person that likes prog rock, so sometimes i feel kinda strange and alone (i think people are crazy of course)... Concerning The Final Cut, I abslutely love that record and I strongly agree with you Luis. Obviously it's not the best Pink Floyd album (very far indeed) but, as an Argentinian, it touches me in my soul, and it sounds very good (Also with technology brought by an Argentinian Hugo Zuccarelli, the cuadraphonic sound). Cheers from Rosario, Argentina!!

[@kylewoolsey6635]

Love the Final Cut. The interpersonal dynamics of the band aside, this album has only risen in value for me. The Gunners. Dream, Paranoid Eyes, and even the title song describe the PTSD that many veterans share. Louis’ take really resonated. Why are we still doing this shit is perfect. A lot of veterans feel the same way. Every war should be the last, and the guys that come home broken hope the cost on them and the country was worth it. Lost in a haze of alcohol and soft middle age sums it up pretty much, coping with PTSD with alcohol. Of course, no two people deal with pain and loss the same but I’m grateful to Roger for making a deeply personal album that addresses those topics. I don’t listen to Animals. I don’t relate. Anyways, great panel. Thanks for another enjoyable listen.

[@tgforty5]

Great show!

[@RanlamSeddit]

👏 BRAVO!! Stellar episode mates!

[@jamesthousandkings5406]

Fantastic show everyone, love that you are shining light on these albums. Here's my take: And Then They Were Three - 4/5 stars, love it! Put it right there at the same level as 'Wind & Wuthering'. Black Moon - 2/5 stars. Emerson's good, happy to have it, better than no new ELP. Rock Island - 2.5/5 stars. Solid, not top shelf Tull. Love Martin Barre's work. The Final Cut - 3/5 stars. Dark, deep, angry, reflective. If you have only listened to it 2 or 3 times (like some people on this panel), then it is kind of hard to take your opinion seriously. Like any complicated music, it takes time to sink in. If you have any sense of history, and listen to it alone (with headphones) this is a profound piece of art. As a military historian, and a former member of the military, this album speaks to my heart.

[@jonfargo7321]

Great episode. Really enjoyable. I’m a huge Pink Floyd fan and really like The Final Cut for what it is. I have to be in a certain mindset to throw it on, but I think it’s a strong album. The enormous success of the prior four albums and the obvious friction in the band cast a shadow on this record. I currently give this album equal listening time to their core ‘70s albums.

[@douglashanau3339]

Preach Luis... you are spot on about Floyd and Waters

[@wolftree3948]

I'm not sure what is wrong with Lake's 'ballad-y stuff' on Black Moon given he has been know for some of that - pardon the pun - from the beginning of ELP's career. I, for one, like Footprints (especially, having said that I can imagine Luis running to the bathroom to yack) and Affairs. They are very fine songs, but admittedly not true prog. I'm a guy but not afraid to say I like them but then again I don't have the pressure of being on this video! In terms of the Genesis album, I'm one that is not so locked into the past that I can't be open a different approach or nuance. I have the Genesis album discussed, have not listened to it yet, but am sure I will like because I'm ok with change and can appreciate an artistic approach that doesn't mirror what preceded it. At the same time...born in '61 I'm listening to, for example, the old Genesis catalogue for the first time and doing in a different order compared to you guys. Prog has only come into my orbit for real in the last few years as a result of SoT. Still very interesting to hear everyone's views and this is a great topic worth a part 3, 4, etc - just for the banter alone and the electric remarks, too. For those interested, sounds like Rock Island is available on Ken's site.

[@robertglisson6319]

Greg Lake's ballads were a primary reason why women tended to be drawn to ELP than they were other prog bands, except for Pink Floyd (who arguably is not prog). It is also what dominated radio airplay, making some believe that ELP was like James Taylor or Seals and Croft lol. The guys loved the extraordinary power of ELP, however, which is what made them perhaps the biggest live band of the seventies, along with Led Zeppelin...

[@DavidLazarus]

Chad - You did good not getting into Roger's solo career! I made the mistake of buying The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking years ago. I got so depressed from the first listen that I returned it. On a similar note, I also borrowed Marillion's Misplaced Childhood. That was depressing too and I gave it right back. I haven't listened to The Wall in its entirety in a very long time for the same reason. I used to quite enjoy it back in my teens and early 20s.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Sounds like you may need some antidepressants if albums make you so depressed lol

[@DavidLazarus]

@@nectarinedreams7208 - Should a depressing album not make someone feel depressed? It seems to me that it would be a natural reaction for most people.

[@zedtradertoronto158]

Pink Floyd: The Final Cut, is criminally underrated. It is one of the best recorded and sounding records of all time. I would love to see how it was recorded and how it sounds so perfect! A very misunderstood album.

[@zedtradertoronto158]

Lyrically, it's still as relevant now, as it was then.. . especially with Dictator Putin, and his War on Ukraine going on. Extremely relevant record.

[@frommetoyou1981]

The final cut is my favourite Floyd album, it packs a serious emotional punch, talk about perfect album sides - side 2 is phenomenal.

[@mikewest1542]

This discussion was absolutely brilliant , it featured 2 of my favourite bands , ELP & Genesis , ELP from 70-73 could not do wrong neither could Genesis 70- 76, but ELPs fall from Grace was much more severe than Genesis ,at least ATTWT was acceptable, I suppose you could forgive ELP a bit more as it was a 14 year gap between albums of you don’t count ELPowell !

[@larsschneider2378]

And Then There Were Three: Love it to death, totally underrated. Definitely the Genesis album that took me the longest time to get into, but in the last two years or so it has been my most played record by them. Deep In TheMotherlode and Burning Rope are among their finest songs, imo. The Final Cut: Misunderstood comes closest I would say. It has to be taken into account that it was a very personal record for Waters and (as we all know) a de-facto solo record and that Gilmour and Mason had almost no interest in the record. It's a "difficult" record for sure, but also really fascinating. And a pretty bold non-commercial move after the success of The Wall! The other two... well. I wouldn't say Rock Island sucks, but compared to every Tull album before it... it does (same goes for every other "newer" Tull record for me, except for the new one which is quite good). Black Moon - I like three or four songs, but as a whole I don't really need it. Does it suck? Again, compared with the "big" ELP albums of the early to mid 70s - it sure does.

[@tombiby5892]

I love And then there were three as well. But the sound is terrible. Has there been a better remastering in recent years?

[@josephramone5805]

ATTWT is my favorite Genesis album. Tony Banks finest effort and one of the greatest keyboard driven albums in all of Prog.

[@arnaudb.7669]

Great discussion.Congrats guys!

[@ToddMason]

Roger Waters' first solo foray was "Music From The Body". Interesting episode, enjoyed it a lot. Thanks.

[@jamescastelli]

Have to say that some of the things Waters has said of his bandmates haven't been very kind. I mean, songwriters get a cut if their name is on the song, which is why a to of producers and sometimes people who had nothing to do with writing it will get their name attached to it; it is political, like these new 3-chord songs with 11 writers. Okay, so Waters is on record as saying he should have never given Mason credit on the opening of DSOTM. It makes him com across as a selfish dick and control freak. They didn't get along, which suggests that they had different ideas of where the music or albums could go. Think back to Umagumma. Was Water's side really the best stuff? Some albums he only sang on a song or two. You had Waters, Gilmour and Wright sharing lead vocals up to and including DSOTM. Why did Wright stop singing? Singing has nothing to do whether you wrote it or not. Seems more likely the others hogged the mic, and by The Final Cut Waters hogged it all for himself. I think he has the weakest singing voice - it works in some cases but is usually strained and not very melodic. And he's okay on bass - but among his band mates and especially among other prog bands his virtuosity and musicality is eclipsed by everyone else in the field. Do you see him composing chord changes? He writes lyrics, and he probably has a skeletal bass line around which the others actually write the song. I've known guys like that. If he isn't sitting at a piano or strumming a guitar, how are these songs getting finished? The comments Luis was making about the others not contributing: there could be an intimidation factor too. Remember that Tony Banks even himself admits to being the squeaky wheel who always insisted on getting his stuff on the album. Maybe Waters was like that, if not with his songs, then with his concepts. He may have bullied everyone into accepting his "vision" for the story of the album. So let's say Gilmour or even Wright had some songs or ideas for the Final Cut, but maybe it was a song about waterfalls or space travel... okay, you see where I'm going, if they weren't "on board" with Water's concept, then either their songs would be rejected or they wouldn't be inspired to contribute to Water's "megalomaniacal" vision. I can see it that way. Just as Luis doesn't like Waters being painted as a tyrant, it is an equally valid position to not take the view that the others were "just lazy and not pulling their weight," strung out on drugs or not.

[@joseantoniomarmol6324]

Revisiting this episode for the 3rd or 4th time is so gratifying… a topic that I would love to see back ITPS, what a panel of experts… cheers

[@DropAnchor1978]

I think it was a mistake saying Ian Anderson was never a great singer. He certainly was a great singer right up to 1984.

[@petejp1]

That was a great episode, I also can't stand the final cut, one of the most depressing albums I've ever heard. What a letdown when that came out.

[@glenfinston704]

Yes indeed why IS the U.S. still doing this shit?! Well said Luis!!

[@chanonnaluta7958]

Rock Island was difficult because Jethro Tull doesn't have a bad album. The "bad" ones are just the ones that take a little more time getting into:)

[@larrygodfrey859]

I agree. Under wraps took me the longest to accept but I bought it and was determined to like it..

[@barsouk]

I'm from Rock Island County and I love Rock Island. I saw that tour at the Redbird Arena (an ampitheater w/ perfect accustics) at Illinois State University. They ended the show with a sillouette of a nice lady giving Ian a hinckleman behind the curtain. LOL!!!

[@michaelcarroll9416]

"I'm gonna call it Bland Moon, and I think it sucks." LOLOL

[@IsothermeMusic]

Luis makes some good points about ATTWT, but I feel he was WAY too hard on Mike Rutherford’s guitar playing here. Mike did his best and used the guitar to create atmospheres almost like another keyboard. That approach has merit. He was never going to be Steve Hackett, but to tell the man to “put the electric guitar down” is really crass.

[@ashyclaret]

Also a bit late in the day to put the guitar down..

[@williamwalker146]

Top notch panel. I enjoy every guest present a lot.

[@heckensteiner4713]

This is the best channel I've come across in the past few years. Thanks for keeping Prog alive!

[@chrissimpson6017]

Roger is my favorite Floyd member & I like The Final Cut, but I like the big 4 PF Albums, and even a couple of his solo albums better. (And also at least one Rick Wright, & one Nick Mason solo album) Waters offered to release it as a solo album, but Nick & Dave wanted the money. It was tied in with the Wall sessions which they had worked on, so ended up staying Floyd. Still, The Final Cut is much more of a Pink Floyd record than Momentary Lapse. 3 Pink Floyd members on most tracks. Momentary has barely any Nick or Rick Instead session musicians are used. It's Gilmour plus hired hands, & hired writers. There's a much larger team of outside people on it, and it comes much more from them. Also in response to The Wall not holding up. I'd say The Wall Live is much better than studio version. More Wright, extended solos. Top 2 or 3 for me. So poetic & touching. Holds up much better, and it's hard to go back to listening to the studio versions instead of the Live for me.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

Also, the lyrical content of AMLOR and TDB are far less Floyd in spirit than TFC. And I agree, The Wall live is much better than the studio record.

[@Norshammar72]

As with ELP in my opinion, they were a band that truly burned during 1970-1974. After that the were the band that burned out completely. What ever they tried never really gelled from 1977 onwards. They really got lost.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Excellent point!

[@mikewest1542]

Yes indeed , I couldn’t have put it better , all the pre 73 albums 10/10 post 73 , 4/10 as an average !