Secret to play over Diminished Chords - Jazz Guitar Lesson

[@johnsonjaymusic]

Your videos feel like an online university course. I really appreciate the time and valuable knowledge you put into them.

[@JensLarsen]

Glad you find them useful 🙂

[@JoelLaviolette]

Thank you so much for this lesson. I’m working on “Easy Living” and I came here to see how to treat the diminished chords and you show exactly how to understand how they were used. Thanks!

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was helpful!

[@dijonstreak]

greatly appreciated...especially with the actual notation going on VERY USEFUL and much needed a 5 Star jpb...thank YOU. SO much !!

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was useful 🙂

[@lollofunky]

just want to say thank you for all the very useful videos!! lots of great information, I only need to find the time to study and learn and process all!

[@JensLarsen]

You are very welcome! Glad you like them!

[@unsatura]

luv your vids ... i came to ur vids all the time, even though i don't play guitar ...

[@JensLarsen]

Happy to hear that!

[@riffmaster1078]

That's a really nice description Jens. Good stuff man. This was very informative. Thank you.

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you very much Giovanni! I am glad you like it!

[@radleytimetables8171]

Great lesson: if you are playing the A-7 G#dim G-7 C7 to Fmaj7 the E altered scale works well over the first 4 chords when playing 1/16s

[@JensLarsen]

Well, you can of course play what ever you want but I would not really suggest doing that if you want to relate what you are playing to the chords you are improvising over.

[@adriansugrim]

I just subbed but been watching you for years. Thank you for sharing you vast knowledge

[@arekmenner]

Got directed here from the passing chords video looking for something to do on the Adim (Bbb dim?) in the bridge of Kamasi Washington's version of the Rhythm Changes. Strategy: a line in Gb Lydian #2 (Bb harmonic minor mode 6, and it's actually no problem if you also have the Ab in there) to a dim arpeggio targeting Bd or Dd to make Ab- 9 or 11. If you have a real need for the Ab in the melody, you can target that, too. As an added bonus, this is _exactly_ the Bdim Fmaj in Scrapple From the Apple!

[@JensLarsen]

Great I am not familiar with that recording, but Bb harmonic minor over A dim could make a lot of sense

[@bubba-rh3hz]

Thank you Jens.

[@JensLarsen]

Glad you like it! :)

[@flowryans2062]

Hi jens, cool video. I couldn't really follow when you turned your f major scale in the a harmonic minor. Is there a video from you out there where you explain this step in depth ?

[@JensLarsen]

I would say this one actually? But maybe just write out an F major scale and a B dim chord, then change notes to fit the dim chord into the scale?

[@TheMegansdad]

Great tutorial! TY Jens.

[@rmathiasrnning8028]

Hey great video Jens:) i watch every video you put out and i learn new things everytime:) could you mabye make a video where you go trough "playing/improvising in double time over 2-5-1 progs". Been something ive been struggling for a long time now.. Anaway, thanks for your good teaching videos:)Ruben from Norway:)

[@rmathiasrnning8028]

I mean like lines/licks amd appeouches:) over a medium swing or ballad

[@JensLarsen]

Hi Ruben, can you tell me the maximum tempo you can play 8th note lines comfortably?

[@rmathiasrnning8028]

Well it depends on the line but i tried, and i can play all the lines i know confortably in around 280 bpm in 8 notes (300+ bpm some lines that are more fast like played)

[@JensLarsen]

+Rmathias Rønning Great, so it's not your technique ☺️ That leaves timing and vocabulary. Do you have lines that are over for example a II V I but then in 16th notes? As you can see the reason why I haven't made a lesson is because it takes a bit of analysis to figure out what the problem is..

[@rmathiasrnning8028]

Yeah i have some, but its limited to mabye 3 or 4 lines, but they all seem repetative, its mabye a dumb request but it seems like the great playees have limitless amount of lines/licks they use in medium swing/ballads song that goes on and on and never ends. ( often i get stuck on the fifth of the resolution chord im improving on) btw i listen to alot of players like Andreas Oberg, Martin Taylor, bireli Lagrene, And ofcourse the great George Benson. And i wounders if you have any aprouches to double time soloing?:)

[@mismos00]

Can you use the diminished scale in the same places as the harmonic minor mode? Do you find one easier to use or that sounds better? Also why does the diminished harmony sound better when resolving to the non-chord tones of 2 and 4 rather than the 1 or m3 when moving down to a minor chord? Do diminished tones always want to resolve up?

[@JensLarsen]

+mismos00 The diminished scale is a theoretical construction more than a scale, and there are always some notes that sound off in it, which is why I think harmonic minor is much more natural. That of course doesn't mean that you can't use the dim scale if you like that sound. As for the dim chord tones resolving up, it is just using the dominant sound as a way of making melodies. It is not the only way, but a good way to get started ☺️ Does that make sense?

[@kindnick58]

Smooth as silk!

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Nicholas!

[@eternalrainbow-cj3iu]

Hi Jens could you also do a lesson with dimished with it's dominant and sudominants during a dim chord, and maybe it would a nice idea to use 16th so there is more to use those dominants in between a dim chord...

[@andreasalustri9703]

Dear Jens great lesson as usual...i would have a couple of questions: How B dim can be subdominant of F? I understand is a sharp 4th but which mode... same : how Ab is a sub-dominant of Gm? and sharp 4 would be a C# , Ab dim is not an inversion of C# dim... thanks....

[@JensLarsen]

I explain the "mode" or scale in the lesson for the B dim right? I think it is example 2 here: jenslarsen.nl/secret-play-diminished-chords/ The Abdim is an inversion of B dim. It is a subdominant in F not in Gm, but it resolves to Gm. Does that help?

[@andreasalustri9703]

Dear Jens thanks, yes is much more clear. Fdim well resolves to F , i was just trying to explain this in a tonal context. The Abdim is clear. I also checked the link and of course i have subscribed!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Andrea! I hope you find something you can use!

[@JensLarsen]

What is your favourite scale for diminished chords (and maybe why?) ?

[@dirkitjes7222]

I mostly play diminished arpeggios because scalewise there is no real option that feels natural to me....except when the chord functions as a dominant in a minor key I also play harmonic minor...

[@michaelruggles9441]

Tom Quayle put out a video a while back about using harmonic major over diminished chords, and it seems to fit nicely. That's what I've been using until now.

[@JensLarsen]

That makes a lot sense Dirk! I think the lines you end up with will be more arpeggio than not 😀

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Glenn! Seems like a good way of looking at it!

[@JensLarsen]

That's interesting Michael! I would also consider that the most natural choice :)

[@michaelsiao]

hello sir! what a great video. can i ask somting. what i understand is the Fdim-Fmaj7 is a substitution from 1-4minor. i hope im correct. and can you help us understand on a diminished chords that does not resolve to a tonic like the Fdim of the song the nearness of you in the key of C? thanks i hope i can ask more! ehhehe

[@JensLarsen]

Nearness of you is a dominant diminished resolving to a tonic, not a subdominant.

[@michaelsiao]

@@JensLarsen thank you!

[@PhrygianPhrog]

Very interesting. What led me to this video was the standard "Just Friends", which is puzzling. In Klenner's original version, bars 7 & 8 were a single diminished chord (Bbdim), not the ii-V that is usual now (Bb- Eb7). Now there is a recording by Benny Carter where he plays a diminished line on the Bbdim and resolves it *perfectly* into the Amin7 in the next bar. I couldn't work out what he was doing because I thought diminished chords were only supposed to be substitutes for the V or secondary Vs so what was happening here? But thanks to your video I think I get it. If the tonic key is G (Just Friends strangely starts on the subdominant C), then the Bbdim7 dim chord is the biiidim, which is an inversion of the #IVdim, the subdominant diminished, which as you show, resolves nicely to the ii (A minor 7). Does this sound correct? Also, about the usual HW diminished scale - Aebersold and Berklee have a lot to answer for by monopolising jazz education with their play-by-numbers chord-scale approach. When I listen to actual examples of diminished lines by jazz greats, if there is a structure resembling a WH dim scale it is almost always a case of chromatic neighbours to the chord tones, not some general-purpose "scale". IMO this WH dim scale doesn't sound right.

[@JensLarsen]

Indeed! Actually a lot of dim chords were substituted with II V progressions (I remember You, You Do Something to You, Embraceable You, Stella). The Chord / Scale charts of Aebersold has probably done more bad than good 😀

[@PhrygianPhrog]

I've been thinking about "Just Friends" some more. Let's assume that there is a "structural harmony" beneath the complex changes of a jazz standard, just as you can decompose a Bird blues into the basic blues tonic-dominant-subdominant pattern. I was thinking of the following for the A section of Just Friends: || C | % | C- | % | G | % | A7 | % | D7 | % | % | E7 | A7 | % | D7 | G7 || The C- because it's the classic modal interchange, deriving the iv min from the parallel minor of the tonic, G minor, which resolves to the I nicely in a minor plagal cadence. Now the reason I substituted the A7 for the Bbdim is because the #IVdim can be seen as substitution for the predominant A7 (supertonic II7 functions as predominant, just like the subdominant IV, right?), which also happens to be the secondary dominant of the V, which follows it (when you remove the ii). Also II7 is a super-common and obvious chord. The D7 sounds not quite perfect with the melody but it's ok because a dominant can accept the 4th on a strong beat, no problem (cf. Barry Harris says the ii min 7 chord is practically an extension of the V). When one looks at it like this the song is really not so strange anymore. Furthermore, it possible to view the harmony as simply another variation of the classic swing sequence: || C | % | C- | % | B- | % | Bbdim | % | A- | D7 | etc Sorry for the long post but I actually lost sleep over it!!

[@JensLarsen]

It would have to be an A7b9 which is really not what you hear as a V of V in major. I don't find that explanation very useful for my ears, especially since the Bbdim will resolve to a G chord very often as well.

[@PhrygianPhrog]

True, I hadn't thought of that. I went down a rabbit hole and forgot to use my ears!

[@Capybara_Music_Playground]

Hello!! I'm always watching your videos. It really helps me a lot. Thanks a lot!! I have a questions. The chord progression 'EM7 - Fdim7 - BM7/F# - Eb7/G' In the jazz standard song 'Nobody else but me' This is a little bit difficult to me. Is F diminished chord a passing diminish? Or is it a tonic diminished chord? And which scale to solo over F diminished chords ?? It is F Whole / Half diminished scale??? Also what is a Eb7/G chord? It is just realated to 'A-7 - D7' chords? But Bb melodic minor scale is dosen't sound good at Eb/G chord... Where is the from of Eb/G chord? And which scale is inside sound at this chord? Please help me!!

[@JensLarsen]

It is a #IV diminished and you should just use Eb harmonic minor (or actually D# if you want to be enharmonically correct) Eb7/G is just an Eb7 chord with a G in the bass

[@Capybara_Music_Playground]

Thank you for reply!! But why Reasons Available to use Eb harmonic minor scale at F diminished chord? I just want to understand more about it. And I understand Eb7/G is just Eb. Than I can use Eb mixolydian, Bb melodic minor, Eb alterd scale....and some other scales use in Eb7???

[@JensLarsen]

You get that harmonic minor scale if you fit the chord in the key (B major)

[@Capybara_Music_Playground]

Jens Larsen Oh Soso Thank you!! 👍👍👍

[@enricocaon9264]

Hi Jens, great lesson! This approach makes playing over the diminished chords a lot easier. I checked if this harmonic minor scale system worked also with the other common progressions with diminished chords (like I dim that goes to I Maj7, #V dim that goes to VI m, etc..) and it fit perfectly. The only situation that created me some problems was this kind of progression: V°dim that goes to V7 (like in the B section of “As time goes by”). It’s not a dominant type, neither an inversion of the #IVdim. How can it be classified (in the system of the diminshed chords with dominant or subdominant function that you proposed)? Can you still approach this diminished chord with this harmonic minor scale system or would it be better to change system in this particular case? Or have I misunderstood something? Thanks a lot for this lesson and for your beautiful channel

[@JensLarsen]

If I read it right you are talking about something like Bbdim Bb7 in Eb major? I see that as a secondary #IV dim (but it may have another name) and you can treat it as an E dim in Bb major, so D harmonic minor. Is that what you mean?

[@enricocaon9264]

@@JensLarsenYes, I meant that. Thanks a lot again!

[@DinamicJonMMusikGermany]

very good lesson....Jens!!!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Jon!

[@cooljazz2797]

Bdim7 to Fmaj 7 roots excluded sounds as E7b9 to A- and looks like that on the guitar. Is that the wrong way to look at it musically?

[@JensLarsen]

That depends on how you hear it in the context of the song right? To me that doesn't sound like a V I in most songs 🙂

[@johnjacquard2182]

Hello sir,I am wondering if the #IV is a secondary diminished to the iimin7 of a key , however because it resolves to the I major in that context it acts like a subdominant . ( is this the reason why we use the harmonic minor scale that we do on the #IV?

[@johnjacquard2182]

That supposed to say iiimin7 sorry autocorrect from a touchscreen TV ;(

[@johnjacquard2182]

So like in C major Cmaj6/ F#dim7/ Cmaj6 Its like Cmaj6/ F#dim7/ Emin7 But because the way the #IV resolves to Cmajor it def is subdominant . But is this how #IV came to be? A kind of reharmonization ( albeit a mild one ) Kind of like using Bbmaj7/ G7/ C6 Instead of Dmin7 / G7/ C6 Or is the #IV more flexible than that , meaning It can be played as B7, D7, F7, Ab7? ( example would be subbing #IVdim at beginning of take A train Cmaj6/ F#dim/ Dmin7/ G7/ As a secondary diminished for Dmin7 So I'm wondering what your take on it is regarding the flexibility of the #IV

[@JensLarsen]

It is a #IV so maybe try to derive it from an F chord instead of making it a secondary dominant (that anyway does not resolve). Use the examples I give in this video and in the other one you commented on, then you don't end up ignoring the context.

[@johnjacquard2182]

Is the #IV its own category because it is ambiguous or because it is specific? ( because if it was just a secondary dominant for 3 chord but by resolving to 1maj it acts as subdominant would it then deserve to have its own category ? Or is it that several secondary dominate resolving to 1 chord that happen be subdominant related to that 1 chord that all of them exist in the #IV category? Its that I didn't know who else could answer this besides yourself thanks for your time I appreciation you kind sir,

[@JensLarsen]

@@johnjacquard2182 It isn't acting like a dominant so then it isn't one. It isn't tonic so it is not that either, therefore it is subdominant. Furthermore, It is derived from the subdominant, and often it is appearing as a transition to or from a subdominant chord.

[@jumemowery9434]

Jens, I love your lessons! Thanks !!

[@JensLarsen]

+Jume Mowery Thank you! I am glad to hear that! ☺️

[@guitarforfree]

good stuff thank you

[@dle777]

Another valuable lesson, expertly produced and explained. Thanks! Would you consider a video on your favorite forms for various chord types, such as Maj7, Min7, Dim. and the Doms. (b5, #5, b9, #11 etc)? I often find myself using the same inversions which gets old.

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you! I don't really have favourites like that. My approach to comping is more guided by melody and I end using a lot of different voicings for the chords. Hope I don't sound arrogant, it's the best way I can (quickly) describe my approach...

[@johnjacquard2182]

Why don't we have secondary #IV, and secondary IV minor similar to secondary cadences?

[@JensLarsen]

Maybe we do and you just didn't check out enough songs?

[@johnjacquard2182]

@@JensLarsen love it :D

[@johnjacquard2182]

@@JensLarsen one my fav with #IV is 1927 Louis Armstrong potatoes head blues, I love how the harmony allows for such a creative song

[@johnjacquard2182]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/navUdGSgebysnck

[@guitarforfree]

Is the Sub dominant chord always the 4 chord?

[@JensLarsen]

No it can be a II chord and sometimes a VI as well.

[@realcygnus]

quality content channel

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks! I am glad you like the videos! Be sure to let me know if you have ideas for topics I should do a video on! 🙂

[@discountmusician8951]

I hate to be a pain but I dont understand the dimished chord usage.Your playing iii VI ii V turnarounds and using diminished chords. The VI chord is a 7th chord in that turnaround in most every standard Ive seen.VI7 unaltered works.And youre using a harmonic minor scale which also works for a plain VI7 chord.Example,key of C major the VI chord can be a simple 7 chord or A7,so D harmonic minor would work and would add the b9,#9 and #5 and mix and match those tones for more chord substitutions.The only chord subs I can see for a diminished chord is the same diminished chord,different inversion.Yes,the diminished works but I dont see why the 7b9 doesnt work?

[@JensLarsen]

Why does it have to become a dominant chord? I don't think the two sound exactly the same, and sometimes the dominant diminished chord just sounds better. Music is about how it sounds, right? 🙂 It is actually a b13, not a #5 (because there is still a 5 in the scale) and there is no #9 in that scale. Besides that, playing the b13 over the dim chord is playing a major 3rd over a minor chord which (maybe give it a try) doesn't sound very good. I guess you see A7(b9b13) as a substitution for A7? Maybe that is not really an efficient way to think about it, maybe just think A7 and be aware of all the options you have in the context the chord is in. Otherwise you might end up having to think 4 or 5 chords instead of 1 when playing a bar of A7. Maybe you want to open up how you think about chords instead of forcing the music into a system that anyway is not really working? Just because you haven't figured out diminished chords doesn't mean that they can't sound good or that they have to be turned into something you already know.

[@discountmusician8951]

@@JensLarsen Youre probably right.Its about the sound. You would know better than I. But the original question was answered about the #IV being a diminished 7 chord,so thats what I wanted to know and I thank you many times! I look forward to some of the other posts...like the pentatonic Coltrane would use.Holdsworth chords....yeh wish I had the fingers for it.

[@discountmusician8951]

​@@JensLarsen No,Im here to annoy one last time then I'll go away. lol Since when are we handcuffed to one certain scale per chord?No,the #9 is not in the harmonic minor but it is in the major scale of the tonic key.So does it work? Absolutely! And the #5 can be a #5 because even accidentals....not in any scale...better yet,the Discount Musician scale,sound nice.Ive seen some weird scales as Im sure you have.I happen to like the VI7#5#9 voiced the way I want it voiced and have the #9 go to the b9 in the same chord.Am I wrong.No way! Its music man! And who are you to tell me the dominant dinished chord sounds better than the 7b9? you know what i like to hear? You said i was forcing a wrong idea on myself but its NOT wrong and who are you to say it is? If you have the all knowing,all that HAS to be set of rules jazz encyclopedia..keep it.Im an individual who dares to be me. What would you say to John Coltrane who,with a broken reed,squealed and made just noise with his sax? Tell him he's wrong? 1 of my personal fav Guitarist Mike Stern bends notes to I have no idea what note...sounds cool to me..is he wrong? Then theres guys like John Gage. C'mon man,theres no set rules to music and to think there is...is in fact forcing a wrong idea on yourself. I respect and appreciate your usage of the #IV diminished 7 chord because i'm not above learning from another perspective and it works for ME.So again,thank you! But try and respect where Im coming from even though you dont agree.And to judge my usage within music without even hearing me play? Wow! thats what we call here in new york...ballsy! peace!

[@JensLarsen]

@@discountmusician8951 sure, do whatever works for you. But if you ask my opinion then please allow me to be honest.

[@discountmusician8951]

@@JensLarsen fair enough.You are a great player according to my ears.Music is and has always been an emotional rollercoaster ride for me.Something not taught in any music school that Im aware of...sometimes I lose it.I apologize.

[@georgehiggins1320]

My take away from this is this. If you're on a biiio7 heading towards a ii-7 chord. Don't try to target the root third fifth or seventh as much, but look toward the 9 and 11.

[@lolobuggah2670]

I'm more confused now after having watched this.

[@JensLarsen]

But you were not confused before?

[@lolobuggah2670]

@@JensLarsen not really, i was mainly using diminished arpeggios. It seems like that is a good way.

[@timhitt5934]

what is that blue thing around the nut?

[@JensLarsen]

+tim hitt It's hairband that I use as a mute for open strings, but it does not really do anything when it is behind the nut- I sometimes use it while recording or practicing legato. 😊