Sex in the Equality Act: the Westminster Hall debate webinar 8th June 2023

Our director of advocacy, Helen Joyce, talked to academic Michael Foran and barrister Naomi Cunningham about the Westminster Hall debate on clarifying the Equality Act.
Among the questions discussed:
What is the policy problem this proposal aims to solve?
If our proposal becomes law (whether with our suggested wording or an alternative), what, in practical terms, is likely to change?
Our petition is being debated at the same time as a rival petition which calls on the government not to amend the definition of sex in the Equality Act. What are the best arguments put forward by opponents of clarity?
What, if anything, does the definition of sex in the Equality Act have to do with “gender self-identification”?

[@billbow5322]

We owe Helen Joyce a debt of gratitude. Clear of mind, sound of thought, immensely clever and steely eyed in determination, she is carving out a considerable space in social history. Brave and admirable.

[@beckymurray80]

Came for Helen, stayed for Naomi and Michael. The sanity and logic is all on this side of the debate.

[@sheilaoreilly6826]

Great work. Really informative. I wish more people would get their head out of the sand and start realising these changes to the language of law have far reaching consequences.....

[@mataform]

Omg I am completely lost! How did we end up in this soup. Thank you for getting your heads round this.

[@HalfB]

Helen, you bring me such peace of mind and heart. You’re a amazing women and you have my respect and gratitude for all your work. I’ve been recently following your interviews and debates and your voice is one that is so brilliantly succinct and definitive which keeps this very complex and complicated subject very clear and simple. Much gratitude and appreciation for all you do. A true hero and inspiration ✊

[@stalin3725]

From Iain Morse- it is great to see this and I congratulate Helen Joyce. For Edinburgh viewers I have found it impossible to purchase any gender critical book-byJoyce , Stock, or Barnes -in the Princes Street branch of Waterstones. When I asked I was told these titles (and others) would NEVER be stocked in shop.THe shop has and does stock titles which are 'pro trans'. The same seems true on Topping & Co. Blackwell's by contrast do or have stocked these gender critical titles on shelf. If your experience is the same why not complain as I have done. Can I add that parents worried about what is being taught and done to their children around these subjects in Scottish schools need to organise groups and ask teachers questions. Angry confrontation needs to be avoided as this plays to the pro trans lobby.

[@tonyhoffman3309]

Any school which is not keeping single sex toilets and changerooms single sex, are violating child safe guarding and the sex based rights of their students

[@philiplong7390]

Helen Joyce's book really put the whole trans issue into perspective. Great video.

[@BrittishCats]

I just want to say thank you to Michael for going so far in explaining things, it's just the amount of detail I'm interested in. And it leaves no lingering questions! So thank you very much Michael!

[@ot6960]

Thank you for all you do and all you are trying to achieve.

[@bronwen6543]

Fantastic! Very informative and clearly presented. Thank you.

[@marieparker3822]

I wonder whether many of the youngest age group (18 - 24) really understand what 'intimate care' entails. When I was 18 I knew nothing.

[@alice1374]

Things have changed since the olden days, there's a lot that is more accessible nowadays. I've known what that "intimate care" means since age 6 although that's probably my autism which makes me smarter to some degree. However, I do agree you should be able to ask for someone who is the same sex (assigned at birth) for intimate care if you don't want someone of the opposite sex (or someone who's transitioned) as I know not everyone is happy to have someone who was assigned male at birth but is consequently female after the fact to deal with their intimate care and vice versa for a myriad of different reasons.

[@jayWalk8]

Agree it's doubtful that they would. I remember going for my first smear at 19 with my Mum & I had no idea what was involved!

[@alice1374]

@@jayWalk8 It should be included in rshe honestly, since that is the lesson you're supposed to learn about this stuff - yet you don't and are left to figure it out on your own as is the case with anything else school doesn't teach you, how to cook, how to wash clothes (the ones you have to wash by hand) etc

[@jayWalk8]

@@alice1374 agree about the sexual health & gyno info - this is what they should be teaching, however I was at school in the 80's & we had domestic science which was great - loads of baking & cooking and dress making even! Everything else like running a home & domestic stuff / car maintenance I learnt at home. I successfully home educated my own son though as schools these days are far too desk based & concerned with ticking boxes rather than teaching relevant skills.

[@alice1374]

​@@jayWalk8 Yeah. If I'm honest I'm grateful for the events that led me to be home-schooled for 9-10 years. I learned so much more during that time than I did in the 6 years I spent in school. Unfortunately, due to events that occurred I had after-school clubs that I enjoyed however due to consequences of being pulled out of school before being expelled. My brother threatened to hit the headteacher, and that was the end of it. He also caused me to be bullied a lot there, both in and out of school, even in the restrooms. Despite this, I managed to achieve a black belt in karate in a short amount of time with one of the after-school clubs I attended. I never took my anger out on anyone, even though I could have easily done so. At that point, I was the only one in the karate club who had achieved a black belt. Still proud of it to this day.

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

Good on you, Edinburgh!

[@andyiswonderful]

I appreciate your fairness in asking what your panel what they thought were the strong points of the argument against which you advocate.

[@SH8ZIA]

I think it should also be made clear that men who identify as a women may actually be heterosexual. I think most young people assume they will be gay.

[@davidadiwego4608]

I note that it used to be readily admitted, by 'pro trans' people, that transgender identity doesn't necessarily align with sex-typical sexual orientation. Those people were keen to make that point in order to dispel the accusation or assumption that trans-women were merely deviant heterosexual men. Now, they seem to have gone quiet about transgender sexual orientation (on a 'biological' sex basis). What changed? As just alluded to, 'pro trans' people's basis of understanding of sexual orientation(s) changed, to include/impose 'gender-sexual' orientation (to coin a term).

[@unnamed3932]

This is something that is rarely talked about but as Joyce said in an IEALondon Parallax interview, 'these heterosexual men are the 'nuclear reactor' of the 'trans' movement.'

[@HalfB]

This point is an excellent and very important issue in people’s perspective. I do believe you’re correct that when most people think of a Transwoman they think they’re most likely gay and not attracted to women…. This is the thing I can’t wrap my head around and makes me not allow for exceptions in the law.

[@Gingerblaze]

The majority are heterosexual males with no interest in srs genital reassignment surgeries. In some geographic locations, where being gay is illegal, the majority are HSTS. As Iunderstand it, Globally, aprox 68% are straight middle age males. That figure is sure to change overtime with the biggest growth in this demographic is amongst young girls identifying and seeking affirmative medical transition to be percieved as "male". The rate has increased 4000 %

[@davidadiwego4608]

‘Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive’

[@stella78988]

OMG so 30 percent of women are totally in on this 30 percent unsure or lack courage and 30 on our side of rational. Explains a lot about getting no action on rape, domestic violence and the atrocities of child porn plus we keep falling for mansplaining blah blah blah and then they hear what they want to hear and DISREGARD the rest precious souls 😡

[@lolfzbf]

Thank you so much Helen for your courage in standing up to all this trans ideology madness. My 12 year old daughter loves listening to your videos & has read your book When Trans Meets Reality. She has learnt so much❤

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

11:31 that sounds about right ~ I've heard younger people are much more into authoritarian impulses of all kinds

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

22:30 - important Helen Joyce quote here

[@franniebob7269]

Was the debate in Westminster Hall video recorded and if so do you have a link?

[@Gingerblaze]

Miriam Cates has a video if her speech at it.

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

13:02 😂 I wonder why it's so easy for us all to visualize that…

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

Oh good, she immediately answers.

[@Ms.Shortcake2008]

Woman includes a female of any age? No. I’d be careful with that wording. Age and sex matters in language and law. Woman - Adult human female Girl - Baby / Child / adolescent human Female.

[@Gingerblaze]

Very important distinctions

[@catherinerobilliard7662]

Thank you

[@fion1flatout]

2004 was just the worst year for Mother Nature. Human instinct... Find food, build a shelter and raise a family. So we banned hunting, continued to refuse planning permission and allowed men to exclude women. So much for freedom

[@Jace7310]

There doesn't seem to be much difference in the opinions of males and females in those polls. I don't know why people ramble on about "handmaidens".

[@kashesan]

Also, at least in the US, even in the 60's and 70's advertisements for employment were segregated by gender-a woman would not be considered for a job as a plumber for example-and the jobs for women were much less lucrative and had little or no chance of advancement. I think that is where the Equal Opportunity Employment acts came in. Otherwise I have no idea what changing one's "legal sex" would offer today except bathroom and changing room issues.

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

I know zero isn't one, but is zero point nine repeating equal to one?

[@LightSpell28]

it is! 3/3 = 0.9999999999... = 1

[@TinaLennon-r7j]

In the polling I am flabbergasted at the fairly high don’t knows! I don’t know how they don’t know.

[@fion1flatout]

[hey should have just asked 'do you know what is meant by the term 'trans woman' because imo most people have no idea what politicians have done behind their backs

[@stella78988]

🎉YEAH does that mean I CAN BE An ACTUAL.. WOMAN AGAIN🎉 OH GEE thanks guys I'd love numbers on these sub group of humans bc i think THEY are being told there are MILLIONS! I would very surprised but VERY INTERESTED in the actual number of overpornified AGP middle-aged men that feels LIKE they are a women? You know ACTUAL EMPIRICAL FACTS!

[@berniefynn6623]

18th C Lord Chief Justice, said all law in England is scripture based,any law contrary to scripture is not a law that need be obeyed.

[@ribbonsofnight]

it's certainly how things are seen now. It's just that the scripture has been written by activists in the last few decades.

[@seonaiddawnbarber6905]

The debate about LANGUAGE MATTERING? that genspect debacle attacking women who won't give up our words is shocking. Pls address

[@OrangeCanna9468]

God, am I a conservative now..

[@ThePontiacBandit911]

I hear you’re a Conservative now, Father!

[@berniefynn6623]

AL OUR law must be based on OUR HERITAGE, NOT cause US native to Britain to have to change or consider others that have come here. We are native becaue our ancestors built this country, NO ONE ELSE DID.

[@spector969]

That polling proves conservative men are the most based humans on Earth, as expected.😎

[@shonabeggs4640]

If only the 'Conservative' Party were conservative, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[@spector969]

@@shonabeggs4640 I absolutely agree, as an actual conservative, I can no longer vote for them because I consider them left wing.

[@davidadiwego4608]

It is no coincidence that, in general, trad-con societies don't do feminism (1st/ 2nd/3rd/4th-wave) or transgenderism.

[@Disinterested-jg6pw]

Great opportunity for men - change to a woman and get better terms and retire earlier (for some obviously)