Shadow Crystals, Secret Bosses, and Kris

[@evidence2839]

Your "I'm done" is as reliable as "One more chapter"

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Or one more chip

[@Yuti640]

The fact that Seam remains in the EXACT same role they were in at Chapter 1 really supports your idea Same role, same place, same position, no hope in changing it

[@JadeTheProtogen1]

I for one am hoping that one of these Chapters. Paper Trail. The Seam fight. I hope something similar happens. Because the idea of all the characters being given existential dread from seam as he separates them and fights them is funny.

[@supershyguy1476]

Something people tend to forget about the secret bosses, is that they present themselves as harmless and wronged. - Jevil only wanted to play a game, yet that game would lead to mass death. - Spamton only wanted to make it big, but he will kill everyone who he saw in his way with a Workout Ready body. Now the Intro Voice, Gaster, only wants to create a “NEW FUTURE”. But is it just that? Is trusting this demonicly coded character good, and the imp and dealmaker are just outliers? Jevil only wants to play a game, Spamton only wants to be big, Gaster only wants to help.

[@kookiautumn1710]

That's an interesting point, especially knowing Gaster is most likely the one influencing them, that parallel might very well be intentional

[@Гатаноа]

Feature of most Diavolo-like characters is that they locked in his own forms and capabilities, and often try to go beyond the tangible. Considering that the Lightners for Darkners are associated with gods and creators, secret bosses work quite well in this trope. Just look at Spamton, whose desire to have a soul in himself, coupled with a new body, quickly makes it clear that he wants to be like the Lightners. And Gaster fits into this quite well too. Being a fictional character from the game who wants to become a human or an Angel in the world of Undertale (the first option even fits in too well, given that he is clearly a Skeleton monster), he fell into his creation and ended up in a world where he now plays a more important role than in previous.

[@clownbloodlemonade]

2:50 you know, the blackbelt analogy is pretty interesting in its own right here- the secret bosses don't attack you out of self defence, no. absolutely not. but they CAN'T fight you unless you seek it out. you're still kind of provoking them, no? like going in search of someone with a blackbelt and then starting a battle with them. you know the danger, but you're pushing on anyway in an attempt to seek out greater thrills, get stronger, etc etc.

[@Jarack25]

6:44 Spamton can be both a manipulative, exploitative, greedy, backstabbing conman trying to relive the best days of his life, gaining power through deceit. But he can also be a sympathetic villain, a betrayed and abandoned mentally ill puppet who has both thematic and story ties to Kris. Trying to escape a hole after accepting a metaphorical deal with the devil. Fanon declawed him but like every character up to this point, he was never meant to be 100% evil, nor was he meant to be 100% good.

[@kookiautumn1710]

I agree with that, even if it's difficult for me to sympathise with him. I mainly had to add that segment in order to properly set the tone and put into context the traits Kris is meant to overcome.

[@brastionskywarrior6951]

@@kookiautumn1710i know right why dont homeless mentally ill people just be less homeless and mentally ill?! I do it all the time

[@kookiautumn1710]

@brastionskywarrior6951 At what point did I fault Spamton for being homeless or mentally ill? Asgore is practically speaking both of those things and I adore him to death. I don't like Spamton because he's unempathetic, obsessed with himself, and goes out of his way to manipulate a teenager to further some religious coded goal he has. I saw your other comment where you said, quote, "Spamton did nothing wrong", and I beg you to replay the game and realise that no matter how much depression, delusion or mania he's going through, none of it justifies his actions, nor really expands on the context that we already have of him (manipulative scam artist). He would've done everything he did in the game whether he was mentally ill or not, whether he was homeless or not, and we see as much in the snowgrave route where he gets everything he wants (the whole mansion and cyber city in his hands as well as the neo body he's been worshipping) and STILL chooses to corner Kris and extort them for what little they have left. Spamton is not a poor little meow meow he is a grown man in his forties choosing to exploit an emotionally wounded child in order to feel better about himself.

[@fossfox]

@@kookiautumn1710 I wouldn't say Spamton is unempathetic, specifically him being able to spot and relate his emotional trauma to Kris' so accurately is why he so readily offers to partner with them in the Pacifist run. A lot of fanon definitely is way too charitable to his portrayal and downplays a lot of his wrongdoings(the Weird route shows well enough that he's willing to indulge in violence and cruelty against those he feels have wronged him to get what he wants), but I think at the very least that he sincerely does relate to Kris' plight in life, and did want them to benefit from his ascension with him via Soul fusing (even if he was too demented to understand that it required brutally killing Kris to do so). That's the whole emotional hook to having to put him down.

[@Eraser_Tracer]

I swear I saw this and verbally said “I thought you were done”

[@kookiautumn1710]

I am now! ... Kind of Maybe If the gods will allow me rest

[@Delta58784]

@@kookiautumn1710 no resting, have already begun

[@XeroKaos]

Me too lol

[@Ongle_Spongle]

10:37 This *entire* section with Toriel and Kris just *screams* Ralsei to me. Especially when he believes his perceived purpose as a darkner is to help us and make us happy, but, in the moments where we *actually* need him (like when Kris is freaking out in the post NEO fight dialogue) he just… can’t? I mean, in that scene at first he attempts to deny that *anything* wrong happened and that it was “just a corrupted program” and that “it didn’t mean anything” (wow, way to validate our feelings, dude) but when we say *NO*, he actually (somewhat subtly) goes into how Kris should think about *him* and even says “I’ll be right here until you feel better” which I would argue isn’t what Kris needed in that moment. But when we make Kris say *YES*, Susie asks Ralsei if Kris is ok, to which he says “Kris seems a bit shocked, but they don’t want us to worry, so let’s not push them for now.” (Like, What do you *mean* you’re just taking their word for it when they’re obviously not fine??? That’s *very* Toriel of you) Then Ralsei offers to make them whatever cake they want (strangely knowing *all* of their favorite flavors) which doesn’t do anything except to make them hungry (probably making them think about Toriel’s pies, plus in ch1 we learn that nothing you eat in the dark world actually matters, so there’s *that*), then Susie notes that they still have goosebumps, to which Ralsei just… offers them his scarf thinking that they’re legitimately cold?? (Again, *very* Toriel of you) Susie is really *the only one* in any of these situations who actually knows how to help Kris. They’re upset? Make them laugh or just show *genuine* worry for them and their wellbeing, *not* give *blanket/bandaid solutions* or vague “think of something positive” nonsense. Sure, Ralsei could know some tidbits and trivia about Kris and try to help them by using that, but does he actually *know* them like Susie does? And what makes this *worse* is that they’ve all known each other (presumably more so, in Ralsei’s case) for *one day!* How is it that Kris’s *former bully turned friend* is doing a better job at helping them than the one *who was apparently created solely to do so??*

[@kookiautumn1710]

This is actually fascinating to dissect, because while there's a similar CONSEQUENCE to how Toriel and Ralsei treat Kris, they stem from very, very different sources. As I pointed out in my video, Toriel doesn't read Kris and just assumes everything about what they're thinking and feeling. Sometimes she's right, often times she's not. She doesn't rectify her mistake because she doesn't really see herself as able to MAKE that mistake, nor does she notice she's making it. She loves them and wants the best for them, how could SHE be the one mistreating them? Meanwhile, Ralsei DOES read Kris, to the point he's able to correctly assume they'd want a room full of trophies only after knowing them for one day. The reason he doesn't comfort Kris the way Susie does is because he genuinely doesn't know how. He's lived alone and friendless his whole life, his ONLY modus operandi is denial and toxic positivity, and he's now accidentally pushing those onto his friends because when they need his EMOTIONAL support, he can't offer it. It's a strange paradigm where Ralsei understands how people feel just from a glance, but is a deeply unempathetic character who can't quite connect to people emotionally because of how long he's been isolated. Ralsei IS observing Kris, he watches them very, very closely, he just doesn't KNOW the correct response to their more troubling and complex feelings. Unlike Toriel, who COULD offer Kris the support they need, if she took a moment to speak their language rather than assume it.

[@Ongle_Spongle]

@@kookiautumn1710 Ah, that makes *so* much more sense! Now I’m wondering how *deep* this goes, like, did he change his appearance to look more like Asriel because he knew that Kris missed him? Also, on another note, when Ralsei was telling lancer that the reason he feels good with helping us in ch1 was because it’s lancer’s *purpose* to do so, idk why but that just doesn’t sit well with me? I think it’s because (in a way) Ralsei’s doing it because he’s *supposed* to, but maybe not because he *wants* to, which is apart of the problem since he’s never done this before (allegedly) and I would say that him being alone for so long is definitely an explanation for him having a lack of empathy and toxic positivity, but it’s definitely *not* an excuse (as I’m sure we would agree). It’s almost Like he’s some kind of learning program? Nothing malicious like a bonzi buddy would be, but something similar along those lines. Would Ralsei still help us if it *wasn’t* his purpose? If it *wasn’t* “the only way for darkners to be truly fulfilled?” (Probably not, imo) but even *then* I don’t buy that in general as a concept, because there are *plenty* of darkners who have their own interests and desires *without* being burdened by the expectation of doing it solely because they *need* to do it in order to please the lightners to be fulfilled, they do it because they *want* to. Lancer didn’t *have* to put on a mustache and give us lancer cookies, he just kinda *did* that on his own accord, but him doing that *passively* helped us, as do many other darkners. Maybe I’m reaching, but it’s almost like Ralsei assumes (which is something he does *a lot* of) that every darkner *already knows* it’s their purpose to help the lightners, and he’s projecting his own beliefs onto them, which might also be a product of him being alone for so long. (Kinda like Susie does, but a bit differently) Idk though! It’s really weird either way!

[@Delta58784]

I like the fact you acknowledged Spamton not being a good person. I think the reason people like him (I love him too) is because of the funni things he does, he talks weird, he’s very mysterious, and overall he is a very good character (one of my favorites) yet I think the only reason Spamton behaves this way (greedy) is because that’s who he is as a darkner. That’s his goal he has to fullfill, Also, I don’t thinks Spamton wants to be a bad guy, he only is behaving this way because he has gone insane, he was fed lies and saw reality, he wants to escape and gaining that neo body wasn’t enough to him. He wants more because that’s all knows

[@ztdtlf9717]

I love Spamton because design, speaking style, powers, and because he plays the villain role well

[@Delta58784]

@@ztdtlf9717 honestly true, I like him cause of those too but the overall lore and character design is like the best

[@ztdtlf9717]

@@Delta58784 that's also very true

[@MirroredWinter]

so basicly each of the secret bosses have a piece of trauma similiar to kris. and maybe defeating all the secret bosses helps your relation ship with kris and the soul. and then THEY could possibly trust eachother

[@yurigagarin9765]

"NO, he is NOT in the right, at any point in his story. And NO, he is NOT a misunderstood martyr. The fact that the fandom even HAS this perception of him shows how GOOD of a liar he is." Welp I wasn't expecting to get called out like that, but here we are.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

9:25 Well, spamton IS A SPAM BOT. That's what they _do_ . They exploit your possible issues and preferences to get you into doing shady things.

[@kookiautumn1710]

On the one hand, yeah that's where the trait comes from, on the other hand... Laptops don't ACTUALLY put kids in cages. Nor do playing cards organise an all out war against the people who use them. It's a sort of "live up to your name even if it's to your detrament" thing, Spamton's only identity is that he's a scam artist, so instead of trying to make a new identity for himself outside of that, he clings to it and keeps repeating the same old mistakes. He CAN stop (the floppy disc refuses to help you save, virovirokun can be "cured" or at least treated for their virus, Tasque Manager is seen singing onstage in the promo images we got of the next chapters which has literally nothing to do with what a Task Manager program can/is supposed to do) he just doesn't want to stop, because of a myriad of sunk cost phallasies and emotional instabilities.

[@trainSS.]

@@kookiautumn1710 Ok, you don't like spamton for being scammer and more, but jevil is also a sociopath that is crazy and have a similar mental break. I think you hate more the community of spamton more than spamton. Both secret bosses have a good backstory they do what they do because they collapse, no action is justified but, in the game sometimes I see a shine of humanity rest in them that make me believe that they are redeemable. Remember, you meet the post trauma pshyco gaster thing not the ... things, humanoids,darkers? that they were before.

[@kookiautumn1710]

@trainSS. For starters, neither Spamton nor Jevil are sociopaths, don't use a clinical psycology term to describe "bad murderer" because it adds to the stigma of an actual mental condition. Second of all, I never liked Spamton, even before a cult following formed around him in the fandom. I thought he was creepy and weird and he made me uncomfortable on my first playthrough. I'm entitled to my opinion, and what other people find charming or reedemable about him I find gross and offputting. This isn't something you can change my mind on because, lo and behold, people have different tastes. The intro to his section in the video was dedicated solely to telling people NOT to dismiss his flaws as a character. I don't care if you like Spamton, so long as you can admit that he is a bad person and not some victimized martyr like he makes himself out to be.

[@pizzweak580]

​@kookiautumn1710 I'm honestly convinced that Jevil and Spamton would have lived perfectly fine lives with their own identities, the problem was that the strange someone ruined that by either revealing too much information in Jevils case or toying with the lives to create temporary success that ended up going awry in the case of Spamton. If Spamton never got the strange phone calls, he would at least still have the other Addisons to support him and be his friend and maybe even help him find success, even if it isn't what Spamton dreamed of he still would have had something meaningful. Even Jevil lived a normal life until he met the strange someone. With as big of an emphasis on the secret bosses, I'm hoping it pays off that we get something different in the ending and I think that might happen. And if the theory that the secret bosses may be recruited to the town at some point, maybe there can even be some extra redemption arcs for these characters. They may find true identity and freedom through our actions in the Castle Town. Either way, I like your takes on the secret bosses. It's a breath of fresh air and it's much needed. Thank you

[@JayTacoDustyTowers]

"I still don't understand how people like him so fucking much" Because he's ✨️interesting✨️ It's probably my favorite thing about fiction that someone who can so dislikable as a real person is actually beloved as a fictional character Be them dispicable villains like the killer from persona 4 to just the regular flavor as asshole like Digital Circus's Jax or The World Ends With You's Joshua. Admittedly i'm not a fan of your interpretation of spamton but the fact that such a large portion of the video is dedicated to him shows just why he's loved, he's interesting, without needing to be sort of paragon. I'm glad this got reccomended to me because it's a good video to make you think about the media one experiences.

[@kookiautumn1710]

No look, I am the number 1 Spade King simp, I love me an irredeemable asshole just as much as the next guy, it's just that Spamton's particular brand of dickeshness is really, REALLY not up my ally and it's hard for me to see him as appealing in any context.

[@elijahgearhart5116]

9:26 "I still don't understand how people like him so fuckin much oh my GOD-" after you just got done explaining most of the things that people do like about Spamton. Tldr: Spamton is Vriska. If you know Homestuck, that should be the most apt comparison. You kinda cover almost everything that people like about his presence in chapter 2 really well here actually. He has very interesting parallels to Kris' situation(and also potentially asgore's if your theory is correct), his desperate feeling of "I want to go back to go back to the good old days even if they're long gone" is something that many people can relate to, even if they don't experience it exactly as spamton experiences it, and he's a manipulative bastard who manages to take over Queen's entire mansion in the weird route(which is also a fun parallel to the "King Mettaton" neutral ending from Undertale). These are all things I and many others enjoy about him! The only things not here are off topic to the actual video and relatively surface level too. Y'know stuff like "He is kinda creepy", "he has a sad backstory", "He has cool music", and most importantly "he talks funny" I think the best way to put it would be with a good old Sonic reference(aosth specifically): Spamton is brash, arrogant, obnoxious, pushy, rude, and he talks funny. That's why he's so well liked! Then again, you do have a good point in how many people conveniently forget all of this when making fanon and headcanons. Their loss tho! (Also, this is a really good theory I almost forgot to mention)

[@l0ned1ver95]

i dont see your comparison to vriska, but otherwise i kinda agree mostly, spamton is an appealing, comedic and charismatic (writing-wise than specifically in-universe) character jevil also has his fans who enjoy his appeal, humor and charms some of the fandom does end up forgetting about his shitty stuff, but even then most are prob doing it ironically for the lolz

[@klinxium8627]

how is spamton similar to vriska loll

[@kookiautumn1710]

"Spamton is Vriska" hit me in the face like a truck WHY is that such an apt reference holy shit. The cool music and unique symbology, the contraversies, weirdly being "forgiven" by the narrative despite doing some of the most reprehensible things you can think of... And I don't like either of them, go figure.

[@Гатаноа]

Well, if he managed to achieve this, then as a character and antagonist he managed to fulfill his task with a bang. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating seeing him as just a very unlucky guy who deserves better (although even in the version from your video he may well deserve it), but from the point of view of elaboration and creating the impression that author wants, he does even that well, that it is not difficult to sympathize with him. And, well, as for music, for Toby’s games it is no less a part of displaying the character and his features than anything else either. Of course, if he were a real person, then no one normal would forgive him for this.

[@brastionskywarrior6951]

Spamton did nothing wrong

[@shadowhaxor99]

Another very awesome video! Really cool concepts to consider, even if I disagree with your Spamton hate. Leave my poor little meow meow alone he did nothing wrong ❤. II'm also very glad to have that quote from me about shadow crystals shared. It's very important I think for people to consider that the shadow crystals could be more than a weird power boost.

[@Breached18]

Your kinda of mischaracterizing Spamton a tad bit here. Yes, he is a lying, manipulative, evil scumbag. But he always cared for Kris, for albiet selfish reasons. Spamton projects himself onto Kris, as they're both puppets. This is why Spamton is obsseded with Kris, the man genuienly cares for them in his own twisted way. No, he doesn't just try to kill Kris to achieve his own goal, the man genuienly believes what he is doing is right, he truly thinks taking Kris' soul will free them both. Spamton is not playing on Kris' emotions, he's just insane. But this is why I adore Spammy. He's an evil POS but his true self is still there. Both Secret Bosses are awful people, Jevil is murderous, manipulative, and insane, while Spamton is egotistical, manipulatie, lying, and cheating

[@ivythay4259]

This is correct.

[@sagacious03]

3:24 Take heart! According to the Spamton Sweepstakes, Spamton hates a certain clown, too! (Jevil, that is.) Anyway, interesting analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@CaptainUnown]

Amazing video, I like your interpretation of the crystals as a warped, depression vision and how those who hold it are. I would like to point out one thing though. With Spamton, he is very much not a good person. He is a lying, cheating, amoral scumbag who is willing to do whatever it takes to be on top. However, this seems to possibly be a more recent development. By the Addison’s own admission, Spamton was a decent guy, and they were the ones who turned their back on him out of jealousy. Only after that did he go on a downward spiral to become the piece of trash we see him as in the game. Just wanted to clear the detail up. Great video!

[@leilarandall9518]

This is the best theory for the secret bosses I've ever heard It makes perfect sense and makes me even more excited to see what comes next from Deltarune!

[@heinoussage]

you just explained why everyone loves spamton, you answered your own question

[@truepenut8755]

Hehe, I like the video! The bosses being used as a way to reflect on Kris is cool, I hope the trend stays throughout the future chapters. (obligatory spadesgore mention, go read dread not)

[@EpicestGamer2]

If the “Woody Theory” is correct about chapter 3, a the secret boss being a literal hero having a hero complex makes a lot of sense

[@danielsantoro6332]

8:38 I ain't reading that. But I'll say, your hatred of Spamton is very justified, and I appreciate your hot-take. For me personally, I didn't like this annoying trash demon at first. But since then, he just sort of grow on me, in a way I can't explain. And he became the first character I ever cosplayed. But saying he never cared about Kris, is something even past me wouldn't say is necessary true. Also, I think your predictions are completely wrong, lol. Anyway, have fun with your Asgore X King ships. Pepis.

[@whoistoft]

yk when there's a kooki video it's gonna be a great day

[@Kristallator]

Regardless of whether the trend you predicted continues post Chapter 2 (for the record, I haven't come across a take like yours yet which is really refreshing), the idea of Kris having a saviour complex also parallels quite strongly with Chara. Even though we don't actually know that much about them, we know that they sacrificed themself so that Asriel could take their SOUL, get 6 more human SOULs, and break the barrier. Of course, in Kris's case we're still not entirely sure about their motivations, especially when the Chapter 2 ending sequence remains the same even after Snowgrave. It definitely shows that Kris and Chara both have recklessness in common though

[@mydogjazz6553]

Well now i want to make my own deltarune theory. Your stuff is really inspiring!

[@tigerbear5845]

12:34 I Think it's less that Seam lacks canonical pronouns and more that there haven't been any opportunities for them to be used (like how MK is only referred to with they once in one of Undyne's phone calls.) It's like how people thought that Swatch was they/them until Spamton in the Spamton sweepstakes referred to him with he/him pronouns. Toby did correct Seam's pronouns from he to they during the Undertale 6th-anniversary live stream (1:19:22), So Seam's pronouns are likely they/them.

[@kookiautumn1710]

Yeah when I said "canonically" I was reffering to the livestream. But also, I didn't know swatch used he/him, how do I keep missing these details????

[@t0nyxaka90]

Great video as always! Also, god DAMN you went for the head with Spamton. Fax tho. I also loved the SB you made based on your own predictions!

[@SenorDango]

No Ukulele, 0/10 Apology

[@kookiautumn1710]

I am so sorry for my blunder next time I will buy a ukalele and then play it horrendously because I've never held a stringed instrument in my hands before, ever, and also I'm musically illiterate. It will be perfect.

[@QUBIQUBED]

@@kookiautumn1710 Here's a comment from breached18: "Your kinda of mischaracterizing Spamton a tad bit here. Yes, he is a lying, manipulative, evil scumbag. But he always cared for Kris, for albiet selfish reasons. Spamton projects himself onto Kris, as they're both puppets. This is why Spamton is obsseded with Kris, the man genuienly cares for them in his own twisted way. No, he doesn't just try to kill Kris to achieve his own goal, the man genuienly believes what he is doing is right, he truly thinks taking Kris' soul will free them both. Spamton is not playing on Kris' emotions, he's just insane. But this is why I adore Spammy. He's an evil POS but his true self is still there. Both Secret Bosses are awful people, Jevil is murderous, manipulative, and insane, while Spamton is egotistical, manipulatie, lying, and cheating" I think he's right, but I haven't played the games in a few years. What about you?

[@jonathanspalding6973]

This is one of the most insightful Deltarune videos I've watched. Thank you for making this.

[@RiverbrookTsodmi]

Personally I'd believed that secret bosses are going to be seven deadly sins and Kris's sinful or forgotten past. Like, Jevil acts very prideful and by reading the narrative it is implying that Kris was locked in his room and mentally broke down as he saw himself as the self-aware fool. Seam's and Jevil's relationship metaphorically pararells Asriel's and Kris's relationship. It's as if Seam is telling the party what Kris thinks what would Asriel say about Kris. It's like Kris is using Seam as a living sock puppet to narrate what happened between Asriel and Kris when they were kids. Like Jevil acts very childlike and lives under the closet in the school. Maybe the strong childhood memory makes Kris fight against the Jevil as it represents the part of the past Kris doesn't want to face. Maybe Kris (Jevil) acted too wild and Asgore (King) told Asriel (Seam) to lock him up in his room as Kris only trusted Asriel. Similar situation with Spamton as he, in my mind atleast, represent envy more than greed. Spamton [redacted] word is love as he can't feel it. Spamton just wants a good deal and acts like everyone owes him something. Spamton tries to copy everything what others are doing and wearing the moment the player meets him. It's even implied that his whole looks is knock-off Swatch outfit. In my mind this could mean that Kris has grown up a little bit, understand how other people around him function and is attending church with Dreemurr family. Like with Jevil, this time Spamton is showing up earlier as the memories are forcefully pushed out of him. The car ride with Queen and Noelle reminds Kris that they used to go to the church by car and Kris remember that he used to act more 'friendlier' but came off as creep who didn't know how to act in social situations than regular person. Like what if Kris tried to mask his lack of social skills by copying others and acting way too friendly towards them as he just tried to fit in. In his Jevil phase he was maybe known as notorious problem child who had to be grounded all the time. So now in Spamton phase he tries his best to act friendly but lacks the compassion what others have. Lastly I'm thinking that the last sin will be lust who fits perfectly for the Ralsei. Imagine if Kris had a perfect version of themself. A person who would always there do the right thing and has potential to be the perfect addition to the Dreemurr family? What if Kris was born as a monster what would he look like? Well, would it be farfetched to say that Ralsei would fit that role perfectly? Even if Ralsei is a wimp sometimes. He is always the perfect boy. He's expressive, heals other when needed and overall acts helpful to others. Ralsei is like the family member that would fit perfectly with other dreemurrs while Kris is the odd black sheep of the family. Then again these were my own headcanons of the secret bosses and I wish I am wrong about these as they feel little dull canons tbh.

[@yeah1522]

my theory is the secret boss is going to be a protagonist of a lost media kid's show it goes with the savior complex stuff and the "secret bosses are forgotten" trope combine that with the secret valentines letter speaking in a childish way and literally becoming lost media (the file was replaced with a blank one after it was found) i think the letter was the secret boss

[@omegabr5257]

friend inside me

[@SearchableUsername]

@@omegabr5257 so true

[@cloper_coldmail]

Someone who wants to do the right thing but make mistakes? Someone like a goner cowboy…?

[@Troixix]

Hi, Spamton enjoyer here. I like him *because* he's toxic violent slime barely masked under a veneer of charisma, not in spite of it. Hope this helps!

[@radiosilent0]

10:44 someone might have already commented about this (sorry if that's the case) but I'm REALLY surprised that you didn't bring up the weird valentines card that we got in the valentines newsletter a few months ago. the one with that person that says they "want to help". it seems to me that the general consensus around that mysterious valentines letter is that its related to gaster somehow, but i won't be surprised if ends up being related to the secret boss of the next chapter. it fits very well with the idea you prsented in this video (which i really, really like btw), and we already got one valentines card from characters that will appear in chapter 3 (that weather duo), so its not that far fetched...

[@kookiautumn1710]

Someone else did point out something similar, but I'm firmly of the belief that that specific letter is from Gaster. It seems almost explicit. He WAS the one who connected us to Deltarune and tried to give us a worthy vessel, so it's in-character that he's trying to help. Plus, this video wasn't really about him, so I didn't feel the need to point to his valentine letter, even if it might thematically connect in some way.

[@radiosilent0]

oh okay, i understand. i feel like the valentines card supports your prediction a lot even if it's not directly tied to the next chapter's secret boss, so in either case im even more convinced now lol. i appreciate the response

[@ktostam35]

I just realised that when you fight the secret bosses, they are very similar to Kris, but... Once they are defeated, the only things left after them are small pieces of them, that you can decide what to do with. And their designs are very, well.. Kris's humor like. I also would like to say, that they're all connected to uh.. demons in a metaphorical way. Jevil is obviously supposed to look like a devil, and Spampton quite literally forces Kris to agree to a "deal", manipulates them and himself has made a metaohorical "deal with the devil". So I think that the secret boss fights are Kris facing their inner demons, and realising that with the help of others, and their own will, they'll be able to overcome it, and decide what they want on their own.

[@EL3V3N_]

Although I disagree with your observations about Spamton, Kris, and Asgore I am glad for a new take

[@parkle8690]

Personally, I think Spamton just straight up has depression with his past rich and luxurious lifestyle being a sort of an addiction, I mean his whole character arc is him being wealthy and happy, losing that wealth and becoming sad, doing everything in his power to regain his wealth thinking it will make him happy again, getting what he wants but still feeling empty, refusing to come to terms with the fact that money won’t cure him and insisting he just needs more, and finally crashing back down and being forced to realize that depression doesn’t just magically disappear. It’s a lot easier to sympathize with him when you look at him from the “I JUST WANT TO BE HAPPY” angle But who am I kidding people (including me) just like him because he’s skrunkly funny guy

[@Len-rx78]

I thought that spamtom was always just a crazy business man nothing more nothing less

[@mulberrytea549]

the snow queen deltarune parallels opened a third EYE i did not connect the two but you're RIGHT

[@dvdexe2]

very much enjoy the jevil spamton analysis and snow queen resource.... but bro you kinda scaring me with the ch3 predictions because its very close to what i've been working on for my own take😅toriel parallels and all.! well at least i can still be unique by giving the crystal to the dark world leader(NOT tenna) instead of the "secret boss" . i'm not crying or anything

[@kookiautumn1710]

Hey, of it's any consolation, I don't think having similar predictions/fan-made chapter 3's is a bad thing, it just kinda shows that different people wanna see the same stuff, y'know?

[@dvdexe2]

@@kookiautumn1710 totally ,if anything we're just on the same wavelength of being awesome

[@theduckysystem]

What a fantastic read on the secret bosses

[@millie_the_beetle]

thanks for the victim mentality thing. i think i needed a perspective on that that wasnt just an increasingly manic echo chamber of self hate which ive just accepted this whole last year if not longer. i... have been doing the "oh, if i just wait long enough ill eventually get help" thing and realistically its never going to get better if i keep letting myself do that. ill try to do better, if i dont forget it in the next five seconds /hj

[@TeddyLeitner]

Chapter 3 secret boss is a character who doesn't understand what someone needs in the moment and instead just wants the spotlight on themselves... Kind of like... a certain cowboy in a movie.... Friend inside me confirmed

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

A popular theory I heard is every secret boss is in different stages of grief. They are grieving inevitability. For example: Ralsei is in denial. He seems to know but doesn’t except it. Spamton is bargaining. I don’t think I have to elaborate. Jevil and Seam are acceptance but different kinds. Jevil is accepting it positively and Seam is accepting it negatively.

[@CR1MSONACE]

The evil mirror thing also shows up in Kirby and the amazing mirror and Skylanders Trap Team.

[@UlyssesK402]

6:40 Oh my goodness that's such a precious way to open the segment. Shut up and take my like!

[@UlyssesK402]

(Also, I have to say, your method of predicting the next secret boss is inspiring)

[@Superthatguy-dv2lo]

Honestly, going off this way on how the secret bosses relate to kris family members and life. Maybe the chapter 5 boss can be Analog to their relationship to Asriel Chapter 5 : This boss might take the form of a mary-sue type of superhero character who is veiwd by the darkners of this chapter as a perfect person who could do no wrong and has the answers to everyone's problems. But ultimately just wants a simple life. And the darkners unaware push the boss to become unhappy with this veiwing of them and stressing out by having to put front this perfect persona all the time.

[@caylasudie4475]

Throwing my two cents in, cuz I think you're onto something. And it only becomes more relevant when you think about the Dark Worlds themselves. See, each one is made from random items. Chapter 1 is toys in a classroom, Chapter 2 a computer lab, and Chapter 3 will be a TV. All things little kids can use to create ADVENTURES and MAGICAL WORLDS to play in. Something that Kris seemed to do as a kid with Asriel, Noelle, and her sister Dess. But things have changed; Kris is older and Asriel is away at college. Each Dark World takes up one day and the climax will likely be when Asriel comes home at the end of the week. Kris is trying to have as many adventures as he can before his big brother comes home and he can't anymore. Because Asriel has changed, and Kris hasn't. Going further, Susie might be key to helping Kris realize this. Since she seems to understand him, there might be a moment where she tries to convince Kris that the Dark Worlds have to end. In contrast, Rasiel tries to convince Kris to keep playing, or worse.

[@ugxsan]

I think a lot of this makes sense. The super bosses all have these shadow crystals as they are dark mirrors of Kris, who is, themself, a reflection of the people around them. I agree with Shawm being a secret boss in the future, but think Chapter 4 would be wildly early for that. Though I suppose that would depend on how future chapters are handled. I would assume Shawm would be the final secret boss requiring Kris to face their dark reflections time and time again and bringing Shawm those pieces, possibly reassembling the mirror so Kris can confront their own dark reflection in their entirety. So who else would future secret bosses be a reflection of? Well, Kris has some new close friends as a result of their adventures. Why shouldn’t those people rub off on them, as well? Or perhaps Kris’s old friends from pre-Chapter 1 had an effect on then we haven’t observed yet?

[@willowori]

6:50 what did you expect he IS a salesman it’s his entire job Also I like him because he’s an interesting interpretation of a spam salesman his name is even a play of it(spam-ton)

[@ethanhawksley9097]

If you’re right about the chapter 3 boss having the savior complex, it could be a DVD/VHS tape themed character (solely depending on if this world has streaming apps or not; a DVD if it does and a VHS tape if it doesn’t) and it could “re-record” over itself in an attempt to help, before it eventually becomes not even itself anymore. And even more so, the VHS would only need to be “watched” to hurt itself for the benefit of others

[@krisspychissp]

This was overall a pretty good video don’t get me wrong I liked it but everything you said about spamton physically hurt my soul, and I don’t really feel like going and writing a whole essay about why spamton is actually in a really bad spot and geneuienly believes they’re helping kris and yada yada but I just feel like that’s a really bad misreading of his tragedy.

[@Typi]

While this is kinda irrelevant, each of the Secret Bosses are twisted versions of their concepts. Twisted humor, spam mail, etc. I think the secret boss of ch3 might actually be a pair of 3D Glasses. I mean, they literally twist how you see TV/Movies, are a largely forgotten and disgarded item. Wanting to interact with the real world, but all they can do is slightly pop out of the screen. Also would fit the green soul of Kindness, since this would be a more sympathetic type of boss, and matches with the next soul color.

[@williambutcher7429]

I heard that the shadow crystal shows you a world where you don’t exist. Hence letting Kris see through their hand. Also when Susie is viewed through it she looks how she did before chapter 1, because in a world where Kris never existed, Susie never would’ve made any friends, and would’ve stayed violent and unhappy

[@omereltayeb7711]

You know what will be funny? If it turns out that the secret bosses arent those parrarels or mirrors to kris's live and are all just some fkn crazy mf that are just crazy and kris doesnt have a mental problem and is just your average kid but in control and just wants us out of there body😂

[@damiancornegay]

Spamton always seemed like a psychopath/sociopath, atleast to me the traumatic event that started it, the lack of care for others, the lying, I don’t know how it actually works but from what I understand it just fits

[@LuckyOtter_WorldBuilding]

i like Spamton, cuz hes a very entertaining character, +he can be read in alot of ways,, that being said, he also grooms a kid, who's to young to drive yet, to serve his own ends, he isn't a good person

[@snarlinger]

Great vid. I was pretty resistant to your interpretation of Kris at first, but the more I think of it the more I kind of love it. I like Kris as more than just "possessed by the player" -- you've given them agency, flaws, needs and desires. The unwillingness to grow and move on resonates with some of the core themes of these games as well. Transformation, grief, identity, letting go. That perspective on Jevil is super interesting, that they have limitless potential as long as they don't "exist". But Jevil wants to be seen, right? They want to be played with. How do you square that with your argument that Jevil mirrors Kris? Genuinely curious. Also, somehow I never expected Spadesgore to be a thing. I guess they're both large and pathetic and kingly. Kind of a brilliant pairing actually

[@kookiautumn1710]

Jevil wants company in the same way Kris does. As much as they self-isolate it's clear they're lonely. From Noelle's stories from the spamton sweepstakes, we know Kris used to derive some sort of weird comfort from Susie picking on them, and it might be that kind of "play with the prisoner" that Jevil is inviting the heroes to do as well. If it's not, though, I don't really think it's a dent in the theory. The secret bosses are never gonna be 1:1 with the characters they parallel, either in Kris or their family members. Also, thank you for complementing Spadesgore! They're narrative foils to eachother across games and it makes me ill.

[@snarlinger]

@@kookiautumn1710 Ahh yeah, I see it now. You've got great insight into Kris as a character :) I genuinely hope the rest of the game bears out that interpretation, or something equally compelling. Truly, the pairing of any two large handsome men makes me ill. But yeah -- they totally are foils. Fingers crossed they interact at some point in the story. Given all the parallels between them I'd be surprised if they didn't!

[@kookiautumn1710]

@snarlinger If they interact in canon I will DIE I will PERISH I will CEASE to be. /pos

[@snarlinger]

@@kookiautumn1710 Bahahaha

[@thevioletskull8158]

Yeah it works,we just have to see if it's cannon

[@jacobblaylock4942]

Snow Queen mentioned!!

[@CrocygatorStudios]

I had an idea a while back that maybe the secret bosses, at least partially, represent different phases of life, Jevil being childhood and Spamton being a mid-life crisis (they would jump around a bit lol).

[@roysparkizay]

good video it's pretty well made, though i disagree with a good bit of it. massive tangent but i'd like to talk about the spamton stuff: i'd say that despite being a massive asshole he does genuinely care for kris somewhat before his betrayal (he also cares about mike even after they've lost contact and doesn't want to accidentally reveal any info to tenna). it's just that he cares more about his freedom to make meaningful choices more. i would say that he has a bit of a victim complex, but it's not entirely unjustified given that the information he knows is known to literally drive people like jevil completely insane. i wouldn't say he really cares about reaching the top in a capitalist sense anymore either. additionally, he doesn't really lie to kris; he prayed to the neo machine before getting kicked out so it's clear he genuinely thought it would work in granting him freedom. besides these points, i can't really argue against what you said about him since i otherwise completely agree, it's just that i still like him in a sort of magnificent bastard way. toby was fearful of people not liking him, implying that he does want the fandom to like him, and i think some of that reasoning might be that, since he's a fictional character, you're supposed to treat some actions like manipulating a teen less seriously (bill cipher that for breakfast and everyone really likes him still because it's not real). part of the fandom like of him might be that they don't really notice how distraught kris is right after the betrayal and mostly focus on kris's reaction after the battle, which you can technically interpret as solely being a reaction to spamton neo not functioning without his wires/strings, but realistically it's probably partially also a reaction to his betrayal, just not to the same extent. for the actual theory (lol): 1. the connection with jevil is fantastic, and i'd agree with it if not for the fact that it's never really called attention to that jevil is alone without connections. it would be a bit weird from a writing perspective to have kris gaining 'freedom' through willing isolation parallel a secret boss gaining 'freedom' through unwilling isolation. additionally the fact that jevil's connections made him lose this 'freedom' isn't called attention to either. there is the argument of toby admitting he'd liked to do more with jevil, but saying that this could be a part of it is too speculative for me 2. not much to say on the connection with spamton, i just don't really think kris has this type of victim complex, nor a major lack of acceptance of the 'good days' of their past; they would probably still be wearing a red headband if so. also kris 99% does not gain the ability to not listen to the player by the end of chapter 2, because otherwise you can legitimately say "why didn't kris stop us from having their childhood friend go into a mass murdering physically and mentally painful trance, are they stupid?". kris also does a similar thing to the chapter 2 ending in chapter 1 anyway, so we should've lost control in chapter 2 by that logic. also, while it would be cool and toby could definitely pull it off if he wanted to, the kris player dynamic probably isn't going to reach the state of kris actively going against the player's choices by as early as ch3. 2a. also kris 100% isn't just making a fountain to have susie stay over, especially not after a weird route. 3. the shadow crystals idea definitely matches the lw evidence, but i don't really understand why it would operate as it does in the dark world [i.e, showing you the reality of the dark world, when the mirror fragments explicitly do the opposite and, from the example, don't show you the true beauty of reality] 4. i basically completely agree with the toriel analysis 5. the secret boss prediction works well with the common 'vhs secret boss' interpretation that i agree with, so i think it would be neat to have them be overbearingly like that. i don't exactly agree that they'd make it all about themselves though, toriel doesn't really do that imo and i would kind of hate her if she did 6. seam ch4 secret boss is cool, probably won't happen, but i hope the secret boss is nb anyway

[@Pawłos7]

Hearing Kooki say "Im done" is like hearing Dutch Van Der Linde say "One more score and we are done"

[@Solysis5]

3:23 oh :( really cool theory though

[@davidutullakatos637]

Man it's been years since the last chapter,which is only chapter 2 and somehow,there are still more theories for deltarune. Crazy

[@demonio_do_seu_quarto]

6:10 just adding that jevil is (until now) the HARDEST boss on the game

[@WhiteCresentKnight]

Learned Helplessness

[@wolfkitty42]

very happy i got recommended this, you're thinking really deeply about deltarune and this video has some valuable ideas! also i dont ship spadesgore but i think it's charming how much you ship it hahaha!

[@kookiautumn1710]

Everyone who enters my house (youtube channel) has to respect the craft of crackshipping or else (putting up with my spadesgore or click off the video)

[@ClodsireBcuzYes]

havent been on ur channel yet- i started the video and was like "wait thats a ship?"

[@jacobawesomeness5378]

I don’t think Seam would be the chapter 4 secret boss because from what has been seen, they don’t seems to have been forgotten by everyone and left in a cell or left to rot in a dumpster compared to jevil and spamton. Another thing I want to bring up is that I feel spamton also kind of possibly represent what could be an outcome for Kris if they keep blindly following us/relying on us. It’s no secret that Kris and spamton has very heavy parallels with each other, but chapter 2 feels like Kris is following a similar road to spamton. Both get in contact who basically makes their lives better in their eyes when their in a sucky position in life (Kris being lonely and not having friends however once they get controlled by us they make new friends they really care about and go on cool adventures. Spamton goes from being unnoticed and unsuccessful to noticed and successful.), however both loses someone or harms other people to get that (in Kris case, it would letting us emotionally manipulate noelle and have berdly be killed in snowgrave, and so far in both routes basically having their mom think they’re in legitimate danger. While in spamton case, he would pretty much just leave his friends to rot.), the only difference is that we are watching this in real time with Kris, while Spamton seemingly reached the point where his equivalent of us left since they basically finish his game. After all, eventually once chapter 7 happens, we would technically be done with Kris and their world, leaving Kris to essentially have no one they would rely on to do what we been doing for them, and having to find some way to continue getting what they want no matter what, like what spamton does in both routes with manipulating Kris and noelle to get what he wants. Makes me think that the whole dynamic between us, the player, and Kris will be explore way more beyond Kris simply not liking us, and us not wanting to be in Kris’s body.

[@ART1984able]

One thing about your Intermission Explanation--I get your explanation but I feel saying Kris is SORT of an enabler in Snowgrave is wrong. WE, the players, are the entire reason for Snowgrave because we choose that fate for them. The game goes all out to point that the voice that Noelle hears is a "sinister voice"(ours) and not Kris's. Kris couldn't really have hinted at our presence to Noelle because we weren't choosing voice or text commands for them during battle to say during Snowgrave, we choose "Defend" for Kris and "Attack" for Noelle. We're forcing them to stand by while we have Noelle freeze these enemies. Now, we DO give them text commands like "Proceed" which Kris has to say but WE do it repeatedly not because Kris WANTS to do it. We're constantly battering the same command to Kris repeatedly until Kris gives in which they do for that portion. Kris is as is much as a victim as Noelle in that scenario, if not more so. It really is amazing how evil the game lets you be evil to two messed up teenagers. So to sum up, there was very little Kris could've done in Snowgrave to prevent our actions because their ability to resist our control is very specific(ie through cutscenes where we're not explicitly choosing for them--I know Kris can change their tone/meaning but how much can you change the meaning behind "Proceed"? We push Kris into saying it repeatedly while Noelle interprets it her own way and by the end, Kris and Noelle are both the worst off for it.).

[@kookiautumn1710]

I agree that Kris is a victim, but I disagree that there's nothing/very little they could've done. I'm not victim blaming here, I'm just trying to show Kris isn't as voiceless as they seem. They've showed they have the ability to initiate cutscenes in order to rip us out of their chest (bathroom scene in chapter 2), but even outside that, physically resisting the player like they do in other scenes (like when Ralsei asks them to think about Susie and Noelle in the snowgrave route) still would've gone a long way to signal to Noelle that something's wrong. Making a joke out of the "proceed" prompt, or even shaking their head in weird ways while they say it would've been confusing enough that Noelle might've taken initiative in some other way. It probably wouldn't have changed much in the grand scheme of the route, the player still would've pushed them both to their limits, but it's the *lack* of an *attempt* to resist that I'm trying to point out. Kris doesn't even try to circamvent our commands like they do in other scenes or other battles, because they recognised what we were doing at some point, and just gave in to the abuse. They surrendered so quickly that Noelle couldn't tell the difference between Kris' voice and OUR voice, even though she knows them and she remarks on the difference later on.

[@inure_alea]

​@@kookiautumn1710 Id say kris can interrupt cutscenes and/or alter them slightly (or majorly if they manage to rip out the red soul, like at the end of both chapters), and one thing I thought the first time I saw the Weird Route is that there are A LOT of outs of completing it, a lot of prompts of dialogue where we can choose anything other than proceed, and i feel that those were to show Kris maybe wanting out of the route? I could be 100% wrong tho Also if you dont mind me asking, in what battles has Kris not done something the player has commanded? I feel like i forgot lol. Btw i do kinda agree with your interpretation and i think its very cool! Its a shame we dont know much more about what the heck is going on with kris's possession and how It works, could answer a lot of these points

[@kookiautumn1710]

@inure_alea I agree, those prompts definitely show Kris WANTS out, but they don't take those steps unless we allow them, they've rooted themselves in place and don't move unless someone else moves them, even to their own detriment. And as for the battles, I was mostly reffering to stuff like in Berdly's second battle where Kris' hijinks get more and more absurd when they're acting stupid, or how in Queen's battle their toast to her is oddly emotional. Little beats like that can show Kris' true intentions and feelings, and with how they've already started denying us the ability to properly make yes/no choices (Berdly asking them to surrender and they act sarcastic when they say yes, or Susie asking them if they're ok after the Spamton battle with their yes being extremely strained) I hope to see them near completely take over when it comes to making choices in future chapters.

[@inure_alea]

@@kookiautumn1710 ohhh i see what you mean. I'm pretty pumped to see how the Weird Route continues into further chapters tbh!

[@crocketlawnchair259]

I just wanna say Spamton rules _because_ he’s a piece of crap. He’s a true scam of a man, a true scam of a character. He promises so much and yet you’re left with nothing but a bad taste in your mouth at the end. I kinda love it.

[@Thispersonisreal]

i believe next secret boss will be a fortune teller, let me explain kris is in "savior" mode (likely a reason they opened the fountain just to close it right after), and secret bosses do reflect on kris psychological struggles just as you said, jevil in wanting to be free (kris' environment feels very artificial and clearly he's a nobody without asriel) and the situation of being a puppet in spamton fortune tellers come of as someone who wants to help you, but it's artificial, the whole process includes lying in your face and by pure coincidence because you believed it, it must be true, but it's usually just very vague statements they use to get you to believe them the secret bosses also allude to carnival in both how they look and their bossfights, but yet fit into their world, and hey, would you look at that, fortune telling channels are perhaps the most obscure niche channels there are on tv due to 99% of people knowing these are a scam! a 4th wall breaking "knowledge" fits like a glove here too, them understanding there is another viewer just like kris understands that we're literally watching him at all times when we do have control it also makes sense for shadow mantle to be a crucial part of the bossfight and confirming seams warning about "how we have no chance to beat them without it", you can't really fight a person that knows your every upcoming move can you? thank you for coming to my ted talk

[@waterwraith527]

i'm sorry i can't support you if you don't like spamton (joke obviously) HEY EVERY ! IT'S YOUR NUMBER ONE FAVORITE SALESMAN SPAMTON G. SPAMTON!

[@Ammiteur9]

Yesssss shadow Crystal exploration (⁠ﾉ⁠≧⁠∇⁠≦⁠)⁠ﾉ⁠ ⁠ﾐ⁠ ⁠┻⁠━⁠┻

[@Genesis66-m8o]

6:46 "leave all your fanon out the door" Proceeds to say "justice soul" dispite the fact the attributes of the souls like justice, bravery, preservation, kindness, integrity, and patience are all fan-made

[@kookiautumn1710]

They're not, the Ball Game in undertale explicitly calls them out by name through the colours of the text

[@pixel9825]

As kooki said, undertale's ball game pretty explicitly lays out the soul traits. More specifically, when you beat Ball Game, a flag appears. Depending on how you beat Ball Game, one of seven flags will appear. Each flag shares a color with one of the human souls. The description for the flags matches with the traits, and some of the criteria for those flags do as well. However, there is one outlier. When you get the red flag for the first time, it says "Bravery. Justice. Integrity. Kindness. Perseverance. Patience. Using these, you were able to win at Ball Game." The traits listed are also colored after their respective flag, and by extension, the corresponding soul. This means that the red soul is the only one without a specific trait, though the description of the red flag apparently changes after the first win to "RED - Try as you might, you continue to be yourself."

[@Genesis66-m8o]

​@@pixel9825oh fr? The ball game has lore relevance??? Okay that's nice thx for the info I just remembered some fan content a long time ago mentioning those titles so I just assumed that it was another thing the fandom mistook as Canon like how the fandom thinks papyrus hates pun when in reality he just thinks there's a time and place for puns

[@КостяКиндалюк]

8:48 WHAAAAT??? Why I've never heard of this unused line before?

[@duce.2805]

Hmm, theirs that one secret bos theory where some people believe that the secret bosses are suppose to be in reverse order of the Undertale bosses.Jevil is supposedly Sans while Spamton is Mettaton but I personally don't believe in this theory entirely, I do believe there is some truth to it with the soul modes but I don't believe that it's in reverse order specifically.In fact if we're being real here Jevil does NOT represent Sans, but most likely represents Toriel seeing as "Heartache" use to belong to Jevil and they both wear purple which may seem like a stretch but that's how i see it.

[@NotLancer2018]

Hoho! Wow! Such a complex theory!! Hey what was that at the start of the video-

[@kookiautumn1710]

Sorry Lancer, didn't anyone tell you Asgore befriended your dad last night?

[@Wailbouzidi242]

Whoah its been over 2 years since the "universal mother" video, was it that long? Damn i need to get back to deltarune already

[@doodlebloom_]

NEW KOOKI AUTUMN VIDEO!! :D

[@ivythay4259]

Good video, but your loathing of Spamton really gets on my nerves.

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

Maybe you need to calm down on the spamon hate, he’s just a silly funny guy

[@kookiautumn1710]

I have seen entirely too much dismissal of his actual character flaws in order to calm down now LMAO

[@ivythay4259]

@RavenGamingOverLord You're doing Spamton fans no favor if that's your defense.

[@kookiautumn1710]

@ivythay4259 You should calm down as well friend. We don't need to talk about "sides" and "favours" when we're having discourse abt the funny puppet man

[@Happyworldshark]

3:23 someone has to do this, thank you.

[@RubberCrowy]

I feel like this video is... a bit harsh on people who don't see Spamton the same way as Kooki does. I feel... insulted? Antagonized? Just because I don't see Spamton as this heartless thing. Just because I didn't see Spamton the same way, it felt to me like I was being treated as blind to the truth of the character. It felt to me like I was being treated harshly, and so I ran. I ran and went to bed shaken up. Over a fictional character. Just because of how Kooki acted toward people with different ideas than them. I didn't want to be yelled at, and yet that's what it felt like. Just. Over. Spamton.

[@kookiautumn1710]

I'm sorry if this is also going to sound harsh but... if a shitty drawing with the voice of Some Random Guy complaining about fandom, not even directly targeted at you as a person, hurt you to the point of a near breakdown? I think there's bigger issues at play than fandom. I didn't insult anyone, nor did I intend to. If someone speaking with a harsher tone of voice about something you care about is deeply upsetting to you, I urge you to get away from whoever/whatever instilled that kind of primal fear in you, because I used to live like that too. The knee-jerk reaction to run and hide from a percieved attack when there is none is a really torturous way to live. It's not healthy, and it's not normal, but it's also not your fault. Stay safe and I wish you the best.

[@sahilhossain8204]

Lore of Shadow Crystals, Secret Bosses, and Kris momentum 100

[@chasethemaster3440]

I kinda feel like this will age well don’t remember if that was my first thought or not if it was then it’s probably true idk 🤷

[@geekyrobot__7316]

YIPPEEE NEW KOOKIE AUTUMN VIDOE

[@JoelMcCary]

Yeah I'm not watching the mad father video cause the disclaimer

[@kookiautumn1710]

Understandable, thank you for listening to the warning

[@insertnamehere1398]

it's a good thing that deltarune ch3/4 is coming in about 2-3 months so you wont have to scrounge for bits anymmore! I loved the video anyhow and really enjoyed your points... also people like spamton because he's a likeable dick. sometimes a sympathetic piece of shit is a really fun and cool piece of shit. they do shitty things but oh my god you love them for it.... also tumblr sexyman-

[@dmclsl03]

I wouldn't count on that release date prediction but okay fuck I can't deny I want it

[@ViniciusDiasissy]

It isn't confirmed but I wouldn't doubt it could release close to the end of the year, the fourth chapter is already playable, and at this point all cutscenes and rooms should be done if that's true, now only the other stuff is needed. Like polishing all of the chapter, Toby said by the time the next newsletter releases the chapter should be over half polished, and we know it will release this month, so a few more months to add the other half, less than before as the team doesn't need to work on anything else for chapter 4, balancing stuff, bug fixing, and done. But we should be getting more concrete information this month

[@calebdemosthene284]

6:40 spamton ❌ santa ✅

[@cornellbannister4012]

omg, pls do a Alvin video or catdad knight 🙏

[@skyfire4594]

Hey, i understand not liking Spamton, because he Is a person who's questionable at best with a very huge victim complex, and i'm not here to change your mind about disliking him, but i do want to push back on what you said about him winding up in a dumpster being "karmic punishment". While he is originally introduced in a very comedic way, the fact that he is homeless in the story is a representation of a very big, very Real-world issue. The vast majority of people that are homeless haven't actually done anything wrong to end up there, but instead just happened to get really, really unlucky, and it's a pit that's notoriously difficult to climb out from. You don't have to like him, but one of the things that make him a compelling character for me is that even though he is a bad person he still doesn't deserve what happened to him, because despite what a lot of people think homelessness is something that can happen to most people at any time. He doesn't deserve homelessness because no one does.

[@kookiautumn1710]

Just as Undyne, Napstablook and Asgore don't represent the real-world issues surrounding the police, Spamton and his living situation doesn't represent the real-world issues surrounding homelessness. He's here *directly because* he exploited other people and relied on their generosity, including the person on the phone, and when that disappeared everything crumbled around him. He didn't have a leg to stand on if someone else wasn't handing him everything on a silver platter. Cyber city implicitly doesn't even HAVE anyone else that's homeless, every reference to living poorly is tied to Spamton and Spamton alone, because even a bunch of rookie musicians running a scrap shop like SCC do can make a living there just fine. The game isn't making a commentary on the housing crisis or the economic state of late-stage capitalism, it's using these ideas (being a police officer, being homeless, having money problems) as narrative devices to expand on their characters (people who want to give back to the community, or take away from it, or don't know how to properly contribute to it), instead of putting them in tragic situations as a societal commentary. JUST LIKE how in undertale, the murder of 6 children and an implied warplan of genocide against humanity aren't actually used as social commentary, because these things DO happen in real life as well, they're marely there to show us the state of desperation and hopelessness the underground has been in for generations. Spamton got his cummupance - he isn't homeless due to a systemic problem that exploited him until he had nothing, he's homeless because he tried to game the system and got the short end of the stick by the end of it.

[@skyfire4594]

You have a point, you're right

[@thevioletskull8158]

Your vids are getting better,the text on the side is really fast,can you please slow it down please

[@kookiautumn1710]

Thank you for your input! I'll make the text stay onscreen longer in the future. I usually try to only keep it onscreen for the specific subtitle its relevant to, but I understand pausing the video at just the right time to read text can be annoying.

[@evilness3404]

I didn't know about the connections between the Snow Queen and Deltarune, I'll have to look into it. "As long as you aren't playing the game, Kris is free." I very much disagree with this one. Whatever is going on with Kris is hinted to be happening regardless of our existence. The wagon/cage flavor text is our primary source for this but Toriel's line at the end of chapter 2 also implies it. Our presence is also not required for the story of at least chapter 1 to occur, as you can start chapter 2 without a chapter 1 save file, and the save file it gives you is quite specific, which implies thats what Kris would do naturally. We also know the SOUL stuff still happened as the flavor text for the wagon/cage does not change when that pre-set file is used. Theres a lot of other details for this but those two are the most important and I would rather not post my whole "Third Entity is probably correct even if I don't really like it that much" spiel that I have sitting in a word doc. Kris is still bound to fate like the rest of the cast, with or without our presence. "The beads march grimly along their set path." We actually have a Lighner character Spamton directly parallels massively, and its an extremely blatent connection that does not rely on much speculation. Berdly. Berdly relies on Noelle helping him to be #1, Spamton relied on someone to be successful. When Spamton's help vanished, everything came crashing down for him, which is exactly what Berdly fears will occur to him. "Since then, year after year, I've been number 1 in the class. ... but it's only because Noelle helps me study. She's... the real smart kid. But everyone's expectations for ME are so high now.. What am I going to do once I go somewhere without her...?" "It seems like whatever was helping him... Disappeared. His sales dropped to zero... And everything came crashing down." Both of them have a rollar coaster themed fight. The background of Spamton's fight is literally an edited version of that Berdly fight's BG. They have similar dialogue in that fight when attacked: "Fools! This is Smart Smoke! It seems my car is getting stronger!" "THIS IS [Victory Smoke]!!! IT MEANS IT'S TIME FOR MY [Second Form]!" They have similar desires of recognition and success. They are also both directly connected to Noelle, Noelle directly helps Berdly, and she also was the only one who responded to the spam emails. They both get frozen by Noelle in the weird route, ect. I do think Ch3's secret boss will reflect Toriel. Even if thats just kinda vibes on my part. Berdly was our side character lightner companion in chapter 2 and his fears reflected onto Spamton. It would be interesting if that continued with our lightner companions in the future. The main bosses would represent something for one of our main characters (Kris, Susie, Noelle, Ralsei), and the secret bosses could perhaps be refrences to a side character of the chapter, even if Jevil doesn't fit cleanly into that. King is a reflection of Susie. Queen is a reflection of Noelle's mother. Spamton is a reflection of Berdly. I'd expect this sort of thing to continue, even if I don't agree with the idea of Kris reflecting Jevil since we don't have enough info on Kris yet.

[@kookiautumn1710]

I guess my own wording is working against me here, because what I meant by the quote you cited is that, as long as you don't START the game, Kris doesn't have to put up with us. The birdcage and stain don't hint at a struggle with the player, but rather a struggle with their soul (which I feel the need to distinguish, because Kris' soul is still human with or without us, and we know they struggled with their humanity since childhood, the player is just the only one puppeting it now). There's a lot to be said for what Kris ripping out their soul COULD represent, other than the obvious rejection of the player's control, but it's important to note that every reading outside that most blatant/basic one has to be metaphorical to some extent, and could very much be something Kris was struggling with before we started puppeting them around. Eg. body dysmorphia, self-harm, overwhelming feelings and the desire to just go numb, etc. Kris is free, without the player specifically, because without us they aren't on a set path. The game doesn't begin, Kris doesn't get out of bed, nothing happens, they're free to keep living in stasis. The most basic rejection of hurt by putting yourself in an immovable cage, just like what Jevil convinced himself happened to him. The reason I don't like the "default save state has in-universe justification" line of theories, is because it's never called to our attention in-game. Just like Ralsei giving the player menu tips or Jevil's item showing up in Castletown if you beat him on a different save but not the current one - these are just things in the game for the player's conveniance. Not everything has to have some lore-heavy in-universe explination. There's a lot of little visual mistakes and poor tiling in the game, are we meant to draw conclusions about the game's lore from that as well? I hope we all agree that, no, certain things looking odd or being out of place aren't meant to make us question the very fabric of this world. And, I don't think the game having a way for you to jump straight into chapter 2 without having to replay all of chapter 1 is a lore thing because of that. It's just a game mechanic. I know undertale and deltarune are both very meta games, but... sometimes they're just games. Not every single line of code or wonky workaround for the player is meant to be foreshadowing. Having a third entity controlling Kris kind of goes against the game's narrative, and overcomplicates an already complex dynamic between us and Kris. I don't even know why people think the theory is canon when the game beats us over the head with the idea that WE are the ones who embody fate in this universe, and Kris is tied to us even though they don't want to be. It's one of the most blatant "hints" the game gives us about its themes that I wouldn't even call it a hint. Its not subtext its JUST text. Trying to read a third entity into this setup is, in my opinion, NOT the intended reading of the story whatsoever, and it's emblamatic of people trying to "go deeper" with the lore when we're literally only scratching the surface of the full game's content.

[@evilness3404]

@kookiautumn1710 The point about the save files is extremely fair, along with your explanation of the Jevil point. Like I said, I honestly don't really like TE all that much, but I think it's something the majority of evidence points to and only really complicates the fandom's current collective understanding of the story. With the lens that Kris may not be the one removing their own SOUL, a lot of things about our relationship with them become a lot more unclear, we are unsure if they hate us, even know about us, or may have been the one to tie ourself to them. It makes a lot of what Spamton talks about make sense, like the "heart on a chain" line or the references to UT-style SOUL absorption he makes. Or why Kris shows concern when talking about the world being in danger but set up chapter 3's fountain a full day in advance before they even watched Queen's "how to make a dark fountain" guide. Even within the Kris/Player dynamic theories, the idea that a conflict between Kris and the Player is currently happening or will happen is an unknown. If there is a Kris/Player conflict, Kris and the Player are both technically victims within the narrative of the game, it was not our choice to possess Kris, we had a vessel built for us which was discarded when we were connected. Kris might even be the one who tied us to themselves for whatever goal they're working towards. I also think Third Entity is what Toby wants us to think is happening, judging by the intentional parallels to UT's soulless pacifist ending, the shambling/convolutions Kris does even before removing their SOUL, or the behavior they do in chapter 2. If the entire game came out/was played in one sitting, new players will consider Kris to be possessed by another entity that is removing their SOUL at night and who set up (in-advance during the night of chapter 1) and made chapter 3's fountain. Basically, Toby wants us to think Kris-Knight and TE, which I think is notable.

[@kookiautumn1710]

@evilness3404 Kris shambling without their soul isn't "a hint to undertale's soulless run", it's literally just a visual way to show we aren't controlling them, and I'd argue its as stilted and odd as it is, in order to show no one else is controlling them the way WE'RE capable of doing. If Kris didn't shamble around, players might get confused and think it's a normal cutscene, and not the kind of harrowing struggle Kris is actually going through. Toby making a visual reference to Chara at the end of chapter 1 to keep players engaged is literally just a classic cliff hanger, same with the ending of chapter 2. Kris ripped out their soul to indulge in pie (and in my opinion, watch tv, hence it being plugged in for chapter 2 but not chapter 1) and it's not that absurd of an idea. They wanted food but couldn't have any while we were keeping them tied down to their bed, they were sick of our shit. There IS a conflict happening between us and Kris, Spamton's references to hearts on chains is the fact that neither Kris nor Spamton can live without their strings/hearts. At the end of the day, Kris needs the player soul to survive, and Spamton needs the strings for the same reason. Neither of them want that, hence why it's a Chain and not something like a loving bond, but it's also necessary. Implying that Kris is not the one ripping out their soul takes away the sliver of agency they have as a character, and I think with all the deliberate hints as to who Kris really is that Toby keeps adding (their search history, their dynamic with Susie, the weird prompts they give us for the markers and moss), we ARE meant to assume that, when not in our control, Kris is in control of themselves. If they aren't, they functionally aren't even a character in the story, as any action or inaction or prompt we are given can be chalked up to a "third entity", or fourth entity, or however many you wanna stack to make this even more complicated. Kris'd be in the same position of "yeah they exist but they have nothing to do with whats happening" that ASRIEL is, because they'd effectively just be a clear-cut avatar for us and this other entity to struggle over instead of their own person with wants, desires, and ambitions. "Present" in the same way that Asriel is confirmed to exist, but ABSENT in the sense that they aren't making meaningful choices, aren't going through development, and aren't part of the larger narrative. Again, I really genuinely doubt Toby would make his protagonist a non-character for the sake of a weird convoluted plot about three souls in a trenchcoat rather than the struggle for control against fate itself that he's Very Clearly building up to. If you want a story about three entities struggling for control, undertale is right there! With Frisk as an individual, our control over them, and Chara as a narrator/possessor in different routes! Deltarune, as a story, is fundamentally different, because its exploring the idea of fate and autonamy through the medium of a video game, a player and a protagonist. Adding a third entity goes against the medium, the themes, and Kris' very nature as a protagonist fighting for their own free will.

[@faeridaecat2107]

@@kookiautumn1710 i disagree that the default save files don't mean anything. there's little oddities in the default save files that wouldn't make sense if they're "just a game mechanic". for one, "mind" is chosen instead of "kindness" for the vessel. "kindness" is the default value, the one that you start out with if you're just mashing in the menus, so why is "mind" chosen instead? the fact that the second value and not the first was chosen seems pretty deliberate to me. in addition, the default weapons and armor for our party do seem to match a default file pretty well (default weapons and almost all amber cards, the easily-bought armor)... EXCEPT ralsei. he starts with a white ribbon which is not only a completely missable piece of armor from ch 1, but it's one that ralsei specifically instructs you to put on KRIS, not him. does this mean these would be kris's choices? i'm not so sure if that's the case, but it is a pretty odd programming quirk if it's not supposed to mean anything at all. it'd be a lot easier to just stick amber cards and only amber cards on everyone instead of deliberately putting the white ribbon on a character.

[@kookiautumn1710]

@faeridaecat2107 The white ribbon is a unique armour item that gives unique dialogue when you give it to Ralsei. That's probably why it's on him by default. "Mind" being chosen instead of "Kindness" is enegmatic, but not something I think specifically disproves my reasoning, either? As Kris isn't the one Gaster is communicating with in the intro sequence, there's no context in which lack of player involvement would allow Kris Specifically to make a choice there. Again, I think it's just a game mechanic, and the "default" values, whether they perfectly line up with actual coded defaults or not, is I think just something Toby decided for the sake of story and gameplay rather than hinting towards some greater meaning for Kris.

[@kirbylover2.038]

I think the thing that was controlling Spamton is like how the player controls kris

[@yeah1522]

nothing was controlling spamton, he just needed the strings to stay alive within the neo body

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

⁠@@yeah1522 Sure, but there was definitely something going on with those strings

[@ivythay4259]

@@yeah1522 That's literally the thematic point. Those physical strings are representative of the passive control of a character by the narrative or what have you. It's supposed to be a parallel to Kris, as Spamton's been throughout Ch2, in that he wants to be free of his strings, yet is hopelessly dependent on them. The exact nature of the lack of control is different between Spamton and Kris, but they both know their actions are more or less determined by an outside force. That's the point.

[@jcoxeye9200]

Aw yeah, KZbin comment essay time. TL;DR: First half of the video was ranged from enlightening to PEAK THEMATIC ANALYSIS, while the latter half was approximately reasonable, but not something I tended to agree with. Anyway, let's see how few comments I can squeeze this essay into! 1:29 - Already, I'm very intrigued by this parallel; Gaster is ostensibly the "origin" of the shadow crystals (in whatever form that takes) which show strange, melancholy visions to Kris in the light world, which parallels the Demon creating an evil mirror that twists the minds of those the mirrors shards impact. I'm not sure exactly what to do with this information, but it is enlightening nonetheless. 2:25 - Indeed, I don't think we have significant reason to think the shadow crystals are the source of the secret bosses' power. As you implied, I think they just naturally (or *un*naturally, perhaps) make their way into the hands of powerful, well, secret bosses. 2:57 - Here, you imply a particular interpretation of the shadow crystals' abilities in the light world that ties into the earlier *Snow Queen* parallel. That being that they simply show something twisted, as opposed to being a window into a particular alternate series of events. That is, most interpretations I see go along the lines of "They show a timeline where Kris doesn't exist" or "They show what Kris's life would be like without the dark fountains", etc. To be honest, although simple, the idea that they simply show something twisted or unsettling is one that I, for some unknowable reason, neglected to consider before. Of course, I don't think we can be sure of any one interpretation, but your interpretation (as I understand it) is very compelling, and immune to logical holes that more specific interpretations fall victim to.

[@jcoxeye9200]

4:32 - This meta interpretation of Jevil's lack of freedom as a metaphor for creative potential is extremely interesting, and much stronger than any others I've seen (which granted, isn't actually that many). I note how it ties in extremely well with the themes of Spamton's character as well, as a puppet that is given life, but also imprisonment, by virtue of being fictional. Both of these, of course, tying into Kris. 5:05 - Regarding this interpretation of Kris: I don't think we have enough info about them as of now to make any super solid conclusions, but the idea that they're resistant to change (as reflected in the metaphysical dynamic wherein they resist the player's control, and by the way they would hypothetically parallel Jevil) is very solid. 5:38 - A-ha! This detail! It's always bugged me, and I've always been so intrigued by what it may imply of Asriel and Kris (though as you mention, it's a slight stretch). Tying it, Asriel's "golden boy" trope, and Kris' identity together is an interpretation I've yet to consider, but now that I have, it simply makes so much sense. 5:54 - "It's a physical form to this abstract idea of freedom through a lack of interconnectedness." Oh. That's peak thematic analysis. That's peak thematic analysis of my comfort game.

[@jcoxeye9200]

Taking a moment to gather my thoughts: Jevil, in his cell, embodies the 'freedom' of an idea through a lack of concrete definition. That, by not being perceived, the idea of 'Jevil' can be whatever - it is free. By releasing him and experiencing Jevil as a character, you strip this freedom: 'Jevil' becomes a concrete concept, defined from the outside - by us. Kris, for as long as we've seen them, is not free. Physically, in town, they are defined by how others perceive them. Metaphysically, they are defined both by how we perceive them as a fictional character and by how we literally control their actions throughout the game. Thus, Kris is defined from the outside. Thus, Kris, like Jevil after being freed, is no longer free. Kris, like Jevil, isolates; they hide from society to hide from outside definition (for the moment, please ignore the elephant wearing a non-binary pride flag). This relates to Asriel - he is the town's 'golden boy', but in being so, he has expectations thrust upon him. Asriel is defined from the outside, and is therefore only free in his separation from society; while he is away at college, the town (and the player, for that matter) can't percieve him, and therefore can't define him. Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but I can already see how this all ties into Spamton: Like Jevil, Spamton, in becoming a secret boss, loses some of his freedom - he is bound by strings. Of course, this presents a metanarrative wherein Kris as a fictional character and video game protagonist, like Spamton as a puppet, while confined by their existence as fictional, can only be given life through fiction. Thematically however, I'd wager a guess that these strings are conection; once they're cut, he may be free, but he is alone. This aspect of 'freedom though lonelines' is emphasized both through Kris and Jevil as discussed, but also by the very foundations of Chapter 2's violent options: In the snowgrave route, you callously sever bonds, going so far as to kill a friend and classmate. However, in doing so, Kris and Noelle grow stronger, and you are able to experience a new side to the game. Thematically, Kris and Noelle grow stronger; they gain their freedom, but lose their friend. Metanarratively, you get your new outcome, but destroy the character moments, and characters themselves, in doing so. "YOU THINK MAKING [Frozen Chicken] WITH YOUR [Side Chick] IS GONNA LET YOU DRINK UP THAT [Sweet, Sweet] [Freedom Sauce]? WELL, YOU'RE [$!$!] RIGHT! BUT DON'T BLAME ME WHEN YOU'RE [Crying] IN A [Broken Home] WISHING YOU LET YOUR OLD PAL SPAMTON [Kill You]" Even the recruits system compounds this. In Ralsei's words: "From now on, defeating enemies with violence will make them LOST. LOST enemies cannot become RECRUITs ever again. But, the bonds you break may make you stronger...". Even in Chapter 1, this is rudimentarily present in the form of a slightly altered ending. ...Oh right, I'm watching someone else's analysis, not composing my own. *Ahem*.

[@jcoxeye9200]

6:44 to 8:47 - I'll decline to comment about Spamton's morality, but I will comment about this idea of a victim complex. Honestly, I don't really see it. In Spamton's case, maybe? But in Kris' case, as I said before, I don't think we can make super solid conclusions like this. Yes, it's a good point that we see them be very rebelious in the same chapter we're able to control them to kill Berdly, but I think there's other ways this apparent contradiction could be resolved, if not now, then in future chapters. Further, I don't think we can make super specific conclusions about Kris' mental state. Mentally unwell? Seems likely. Struggles with the concept of identity? Getting a bit specific, but there's evidence to support it. They have a victim complex regarding the control the player exerts over them? Although I couldn't place it exactly, I believe there is a line where well-founded character analysis crosses over into poorly-supported speculation, and while your interpretation here is not necessarily an unreasonable conclusion (far from it), I do think it is approaching, if not already over, that line. 8:47 to 10:18 - Getting into some more general analysis here. I do think there's good parallels to be made here; both Spamton and Asgore clearly yearn for a time gone by, and it's not too much of a stretch to say Kris does as well (I can't think of any evidence that'd necessarily support it, but given their family situation it's probable). Metanarratively speaking, it seems very reasonable to suggest that the themes of these three could tackle the idea of an unhealthy attachment to nostalgia. I'm not sure we've seen evidence that Kris' hypothetical habits in this regard has caused harm to those around them, however. 11:11 - At this point I'm not sure we can make any super definitive statements about Kris' motivations for creating the Ch3 dark fountain like this. With that said, it stands that their doing so ties into their amoral and potentiall self-destructive actions in this sequence.

[@kookiautumn1710]

Once again, reading your essays is both frightening and entertaining. I'd like to take a moment to expand on the way I interpreted Kris through Spamton. The intermissional walls of text I put in the video already go decently in-depth, but since you're asking for evidence of Kris feeling like a victim, I'll provide. The descriptions for the cage and mirror change between chapter 1 and chapter 2 ("It's a birdcage. When the door is closed, there's no escape" "It's what they call you") both of which have an air of defeatedness to them. They're lacking the lonely melancholy of chapter 1's descriptions and have replaced them with resentment. By Susie's description, Kris was "sleeping like a zombie" all class, hinting that their lack of movement was so odd that for a second Susie thought they died (imo). This, I think, means Kris has given up all control to the player and themselves don't bother to move unless forced to, contrasted with the ending of chapter 2, where Susie tells Kris they can just sit down on their own, and they do, slowly but surely regaining some control over their body after defeating Spamton, the idea that they're ONLY a victim. Kris collapses to their knees when they're unable to play Queen's game alone. This is a small thing, and maybe a bit of a stretch as this could just be a funny visual, but as the youngest child it's basically expected that Kris has to "act out" or over-dramatize their struggles in order to get help from siblings or parents, though on their end it rarely feels like the emotions are overexaggerated. That's mostly me drawing conclusions from being a younger sibling and knowing other youngest siblings. As I mentioned in my video, the entirety of the snowgrave route. Kris enebles it through never even attempting to stand up to the player, their victim complex in full swing before they were directly victimized by the route. Outside the snowgrave route, though, that scene where the player pranks Noelle with the switches, which she then returns to Kris, always stuck out to me because Kris looks SAD afterwards. Even Noelle is surprised. I think it's Kris feeling cornered and unappreciated because on one hand the player is controlling and undermining them, and on the other hand Noelle is dismissing their wellbeing to get back at the player. The specific thing Spamton takes advantage of when conning Kris is that they feel lonely and left behind by their friends. Even when their friends are IN OUR PARTY they constantly reach out to Spamton like an emotional anchor. It's that self-pitying sort of "they hang out without me sometimes, it means they must not love me" that, again, often arises from a victim mentality. And, on the other hand, I'd also like to point out how Kris' nostalgia and obsession with the past has hurt people: For one, themselves. This one should be obvious, they cling to Asriel as their only friend, their room is empty because they aren't persuing anything new, and in refusing to admit their childhood is over they've emotionally isolated themselves from all their peers and are unable to make meaningful connections even with someone like Noelle (a childhood friend who's since grown, while Kris has stagnated). It's also notable that this affects all the people I mentioned. Noelle doesn't even know if she can call Kris a friend. Toriel is constantly fussing and worrying about them because she doesn't know what's wrong, and Kris refuses to talk. They give her flowers from Asgore (maybe hoping it can fix things between the two?) and Toriel is visibly upset at having to throw them out basically in front of Kris. Asriel is, most likely, already very busy at college, so feeling obligated to talk to Kris for hours at a time every night probably sucks a lot because he feels that responsibility both as their brother and their only friend. Plus, of you subscribe to the "snowgrave route as marriege allegory" reading, then the entire relationship between Noelle and Kris in that route hinges on both of them not growing out of/past their pasts, idealising the broken relationships of their parents and repeating the same mistakes for the same sort of a nostalgic "normalcy". Granted, everything I listed about Kris hurting other people around them through their nostalgia is speculative and kind of minor, though I think that's perfectly justified. They're a child, their actions aren't going to have the kinds of socially catastrophic consequences that two men in their forties constantly making the same wrong choices does. It's mainly a conflict that's entirely internal for Kris, and if it ripples out into affecting other people, it's a byproduct of the main theme of "Kris has to face themselves".

[@jcoxeye9200]

On the topic of Kris' nostalgia hurting others, I suppose I hadn't entirely considered all that in that way. Good point (I, uh, don't have anything else to say on this). Regarding the victim complex, I suppose I don't quite agree with those readings of the cage, mirror, and Noelle lines. I of course understand them, but I really didn't get that impression from those lines. This is of course subjective, so I don't expect you or anyone else to conform to my reading, of course. With all of that said, the points about enabling the weird route, and failing to act outside of the player's control, do stand (in a more objective sense). It does indeed seem weird that it's implied Kris is completely under our control during the timeskip and in the snowgrave route despite them clearly having autonomy both before and after these moments. This is, no matter how you look at it, a contradiction that deserves an explanation. Your reading of Kris having a victim complex does indeed reconcile this contradiction. I do understand and respect this interpretation, and it's one that I will keep in mind going forward (if I can somehow pack it alongside every other bit of **Deltarune** knowledge I keep in there). However, I simply don't think it's that much of a lock: -Perhaps the player's degree of control shifts over time, depending on metaphysical or metanarrative factors? -If we take the 'sleeping like a corpse' line as mostly referring to Kris' lack of sleep the night before (combined with the meaning of the player not controlling them of course), then most, if not all, of what needs reconciliation is contained in the dark world. Perhaps Kris simply has less control in the dark world? -Alternatively, instead of them having less control in the dark world, perhaps they have some reason for going along with the weird route, despite how much it hurts them? Completely speculative (and perhaps baseless), but it's a possibility nonetheless. -(And of course, the cop-out option) Perhaps it's simply thematic contrivance? Kris can resist our control, but not always, to emphasize the tug-of-war between them and the player. That is to say that it's a plausible explanation, but not the only one I can see, and I don't see (subjectively, of course) too much reason to prioritize it over other hypothetical options.

[@kwayyernorge7436]

bro you are projecting onto kris so hard. the PLAYER is in control almost the entire time. YOU (the player) are the problem by projecting onto them. to quote someone "you're not him" with 'him' being them in this case.

[@kookiautumn1710]

I love that every time I have an interpretation someone doesn't agree with I get accused of projecting. That term isn't even applicable in this scenario. If you choose to read Kris as a completely unknowable enigma purely because they aren't always in control of their body, that's your own choice, but I preffer to play a little riskier and see what we CAN know about them based on what's in the game. Especially knowing how closely tied to Kris the secret bosses are, I'd appreciate if you actually said what exactly you didn't like about my interpretation of the text, instead of accusing me of projecting onto a character I don't even relate to.

[@kwayyernorge7436]

@@kookiautumn1710 firstly, your interpretation of the shadow crystals bugs me the wrong way. secondly, you ascribe goals onto characters without really thinking clearly about it. where is it stated that kris wants to go home? ralsei gives that goal to the player and nothing more. kris could go either way as we do not know what they think of this adventure. and your "just as much as susie" line after the statement REALLY discredits your point. susie is shown to LOVE darkworlds and not want to leave them at all. she is an escapist, not someone who wants to return to the grim reality of the light world. thirdly, asriel only truly liking to hang out with kris is just headcanon, something you've inserted without proof. his misadventures with dess, noelle and kris discredits this idea. fourthly (?), spamton didn't take advantage of kris, he "fooled" us with his tumblrsexyman charm into doing his bidding. literally NOBODY exploits kris in this situation (except the player of course). and your 'victim complex' idea is soooooooooo bad. they are both actual victims, brother. one is a victim to the player, the other is a victim to gaster. there is not 'complex' here, it's all real. and kris doesn't need 'character development' to challenge us. THEY LITERALLY NEED A STAT IN THE GAME BEING LOWERED, WHICH I ASSUME TO BE TRANCE. fifthly (once again, ???), your take on the joke scene in the store is so... uncomfortable. it's clearly meant to show asgore still holds on to the past, but it's not THAT depressing. and why would you assume someone's friend would make fun of them for this in this situation? that particular part really seems like projection.

[@kookiautumn1710]

@kwayyernorge7436 Well, thank you for sharing your opinion. I'll try to make my response thurough, but it really seems like you're mostly engaging with the text in a detrimentally literal way. Eg, if we aren't explicitly told something, you assume it can't be true. We kind of need to read between the lines a lot of the time, especially when it concearns Kris, because they Don't Talk. They can't TELL us anything, but we can get hints and piece things together from the slivers of information we're given about them. 1) Isn't really an arguement, just a difference in opinion, so to each their own. 2) Susie DID want to leave the dark world in chapter 1, and she was a narrative proxy to Kris in that chapter just as Noelle is in chapter 2. Essentially, through seeing the girls develop, we can easily conclude that the arc Kris is going through in said chapter mirrors or fully lines up with theirs. This is most obvious in chapter 1 where Kris and Ralsei are 'the good guys' while Susie and Lancer are 'the bad guys', literally mirrored development as both groups individually grow closer, then eventually become one friend group. Kris come out of their shell and befriend Susie in chapter 1, just as Susie came out of her shell and befriended the class weirdo. It's not a far leap at all. 3) Asriel liked hanging out with Dess, but she disappeared sometime during Kris' early childhood. After that, Asriel started hanging out with other kids it's implied he might not like that much. Burgerpants making up stories of what him and Asriel did while he was around because HE PERSONALLY likes Asriel, but it's never shown that Asriel returns those feelings whatsoever especially with how Kris seems to dislike Burgerpants too. Catty talks about embaressing Asriel in front of his mom and ruining his prom and Bratty talks about taking his first kiss as a dare which resulted in Asriel going to church every day for like a week, it's really easy to imagine he doesn't like these people that much ESPECIALLY when we know how close he was with Dess, and how he never seems to have grown that close with any other peers od hisafter that. And, to top it all off, he DID like hanging out with Kris, a lot. He took them everywhere with him, which is why his peers all know Kris, he played video games with them so much one of Toriel's desktop wallpapers is of them playing together with Asriel taking the knockoff controller so Kris can have the better, expensive one. It's not that he's just a good brother, he went out of his way to get Kris involved with a lot of his life (possibly because Toriel and Asgore's divorce made staying in the house difficult and Asriel wanted to get himself and Kris away from all that, but that's mostly just speculation). And, to finish off, my point wasn't even concretely about Asriel, because his feelings on hanging out with Kris aren't as important in this analysis as Kris' are about hanging out with him. They miss him so bad they've been neglecting most other parts of their life, and hung out probably almost exclusively with him while he was around, seeing how they don't know nor like any of their classmates that much. Again, a very striking parallel to the way Jevil retracts and justifies things to himself after being locked up by the only person who understood him, Seam. 4) Kris was scared of Spamton. We see them physically backing away from him in a Lot of scenes they share with him, and they keep asking him about friendship and his personal life. (The prompts we're given to select aren't random, they're clearly made up by Kris, all we do is select which one). They think they're getting to know a real companion who understands their pain, while Spamton genuinely just saw Kris, their pain and vulnerability, and their Lightner Soul as a means to an end, to get to the body he wants as a last ditch effort to reach his Heaven. Especially knowing how quick he was to turn on Kris and try to kill them, I think it's kind of funny to imply he wasn't taking advantage of them. He's literally a con artist and he literally cons Kris into trusting him in order to help him. Yes, Kris is under OUR control, but the only reason Kris is so motivated to help him is because they're being manipulated By Spamton. They could've taken Susie and Ralsei with them to Spamton's shop, but THEY ask them to wait outside, not even giving us a chance to take them with us, following Spamton's "advice" which is just textbook case of isolating a victim from their friends and family to drag them deeper in. They get clearly emotionally upset when the disk doesn't work at first, kicking and punching the mechanism in frustration which is something WE never prompt. And the entire first battle with Spamton is essentially just him selling them the idea of helping him because they're "so similar", another tactic often used by manipulators, leveraging similarities in order to make the victim more likely to sympathise and put their guard down. I'd almost call it concearning that every single red flag on Spamton went unnoticed by you. 4.5) I already explained the difference between being an actual victim, and having a victim complex. They're not mutually exclusive. Kris is a victim of the player, but they also constantly underestimate themselves and the amount that they can rebell against us, a lot of the time when they SHOULD at least TRY to put up a fight (the snowgrave route, losing darkners, putting on worse gear or not taking health items when they're hurt), they don't. Kris is in a bad situation, but in not doing anything to fight it outside of pulling out their soul in choice moments (which can be interpreted as self harm), they're cementing in their mind that they CAN'T do anything, when it's clear they can. They've taken more initiative and move without player imput more in chapter 2 than they did in chapter 1, so there's clear growth happening (unless we derail it with a snowgrave run), and I think part of Kris' arc overall is finding more and more ways to make OUR choices meaningless and make more REAL choices themselves. Admitting you're a victim is a very important step in a lot of people's recovery from abusive situations, but ONLY putting yourself in the role of a victim, no matter the situation (not telling your mother who works at the school that one of the kids in your class is violently beating you up and threatening you, your friends hanging out without you because your group had to split up and sulking about it so hard it shows up in the flavourtext, your childhood friend playing a prank on you after you played one on her even if you didnt want to and, again, sulking so hard she notices it on your otherwise stoic face) kind of shows it's a thing of perspective rather than circamstance. 5) I very EXPLICITLY said "Susie doesn't bring this up with Kris, but it's clear she has questions". I literally never said ANYONE made fun of Kris for their family situation. I said people asked them uncomfortable questions, and it keeps happening because Asgore refuses to move on. "It's not that depressing" goes against the in-game text that shows us that Asgore's inability to let go of the past is near explicitly why he's depressed, in debt, and losing touch with his kids. If he stopped bothering Toriel and trying to constantly get back together with her, the wound wouldn't still be fresh on anyone's mind. Asgore is clingy and his advances are invasive, to dany that is to deny the ENTIRE CONFLICT between him and Toriel in deltarune. She doesn't love him anymore and wants to move on. He still loves her, and thinks he can Earn that love back if he just keeps trying over and over again, and can't take a fucking hint. That is NOT a good dynamic, and it's not the first time we've seen Asgore's bad actions played up for laughs (post-pacifist undertale literally has Asgore jokingly saying he's not sorry for trying to kill you, even though we KNOW he's remourseful of the shit he's done to get to this point.) 5.5) Once again, you're accusing me of projection when I never even MET anyone with divorced parents. You're seriously misusing the term. Projection is specifically a form of criticism you give someone else that is actually what you'd criticise (knowingly or not) about yourself. As an example, if someone tells you "I think you dominate the conversation a bit too much", but after a bit of self-reflection and imput from others you realise that's not actually an issue you have to work on, and by observing the person who said it to you realise it's THEIR flaw, not yours - THAT'S projection. In fandom circles, projection as a term is also often used when people generally mean "putting in your own traits to fill in the blanks of a character" (which is, by the way, a perfectly normal and harmless thing to do), but that is also decidedly NOT what I'm doing. I constructed a theory based on evidence in the game, I interpreted the text in a way I find interesting, and at no point did I mischaracterise, misrepresent, or pull things out of context in order to fit my findings. I will be the first to admit this isn't any kind of rock solid theory, it's heavily interprative, but to accuse me of Projection because you don't like the conclusions I reached based on the game text, or the opinions I have of scenes and lines of dialogue, is just in really bad faith in my opinion. I DO project onto characters, like Spade King and Asgore (where there's a LOT of blank space to fill), but I also don't override canon, at any point. You are allowed to and encouriged to have a different reading of that canon than my own, but you shouldn't act like everyone else's interpetations you don't like are born out of some kind of ignorance or personal missteps.

[@timrosswood4259]

You are conflating interpretation and projection which are two seperate things.

[@faeridaecat2107]

@@kookiautumn1710 it's pretty funny to me how you're receiving so much pushback for supposedly "projecting" when theories about how kris is so uncomfortable and suspicious of ralsei because those players are personally uncomfortable and suspicious toward ralsei don't receive nearly the same pushback even though that's textbook projection lol considering the text shows absolutely nothing to suggest kris is suspicious of him at all kind of goes to show the bias some people in this fandom have, eh?

[@RichConnerGMN]

0:34 me when i am the fl studio robot voice

[@kookiautumn1710]

I was trying so hard to emulate the voice that spells out "deltarune" on the title screen and this is the closest i could get 😔

[@A_very_good_cheese]

At this point im pretty sure that i can recreate all of deltarune chapter 3 and 4 just based on the days of theory videos i watched

[@Cosmicdev58]

Do you think Kris watches Skibdi Toilet or despises it

[@kookiautumn1710]

You're asking the wrong person, I'm like an old middle aged man by internet standards, I have no fucking clue what "skibidi toilet" is nor do I want to learn. However, by an educated guess, I'd assume Kris started watching it ironically, but then got invested, and is now ashamed of the fact that they unironically like the funny toilet show so they never told anyone about it to hide their shame.