Shadow of Mordor & War - Lore Review

[@harleyronco6021]

despite the lore and timeline changes I think we can all agree that shadow of Mordor and shadow of war are still good games.

[@Davidofthelost]

If you cut the lore out and just have it as a man killing orcs then they are fun. When adding the lore them mess with SOOOO much of the beautiful history Tolkien had created.

[@hereticsteve5435]

Those 2 games are amazing. Better than the Batman and Assassin’s Creed games in my opinion.

[@sage8826]

Love Talion and the gameplay in both games, just the story that irritates me. Just such a hateful way to end a well written and respectful character like Talion. Gameplay is amazing though.

[@delicathvrenitah4282]

@@sage8826 You could look at it as the background story of one of the Nine essentially

[@agronopoulus]

Sorry but no, they are not...

[@Shax_is_tired]

I'd like to think that, instead of an attempt at telling a story based on Tolkien's legendarium, the creators actually wanted to make a love letter to not only his work, but also to us, Fans of the series. Who has never dreamt of possessing a ring of power as a kid, playing pretend, or wanting to be a powerful warrior-ranger like Aragorn, or fighting a balrog, one of the greatest evil creatures to ever exist. Imagining and theorizing about who were the Nazgul and what happened to Isildur, as it was said that those who wear the rings of power became slaves to Sauron even after their deaths. I like to think that, more than a "prequel", Shadows of Mordor/Shadow of War is just a fan fiction, created by fans like us, who put their hearts into bringing to life those wild fantasies that we had, and at the same time creating an interesting, although not precise, story to go along. As for the differences in themes, I think it is actually a good thing that they maintained a theme of power and conquest, as the game focuses on the ongoings in Mordor, rather than in the rest of middle-earth, and it wants to show the kind of cruel and distorted vision that Sauron had for the rest of the world. Either way, it becomes much more acceptable the crazy disparities between the official lore and the games' lore if you think of them as just a creative and over-the-top fan fiction, almost as if the creators were playing a DnD campaign in the setting of LoTR. So instead of a "disrespectful work", i think it's quite the opposite: It's a demonstration on love and appreciation for what Tolkien has created- A rich and beautiful world, with so much history and lore to be explored that it inspires fans of all ages to create their own stories inside such a magnificent setting.

[@MattyPan118]

Exactly

[@richardkvech111]

I think The same. Well said brother

[@skylerclements5778]

Perfectly said

[@concept5631]

Ironic how, despite not even trying, Shadow of War/Mordor was a more faithful adaptation of Tolkien's work than Rings of Power.

[@TheRealRealMClovin]

How come people just accept the games but when Amazon ”fucks up” the lore everyone hate it and many want the rings of power canceled?

[@willturnbull4796]

The best way to look at it is an interpretation of Tolkens lore and here is the best synopsis why The written works of Tolken are like the history of a real world event such as the battle of Thermopylae ( one from 300) so the base of later interpretations The movies and lotr online (though never played it) try to stick to the truth of Tolkens lore so no fire breathing drakes , necromancy of balrogs and drastic alterations of characters. These are sorta like the movie "the 300 spartans" where they change little bits for entertainment and simplicity but try to keep it close to the original history Shadow of mordor/war is like the movie "300" , it's heavily stylised , over the top , characters are drastically change from "real world counter parts" and there are large changes in history of the event. This is a positive thing however cause this game was meant to entertain and to do so they added a elven wrath that can teleport make explosions and lots of action movie stuff among with necromancy and balrogs etc because its badass to look at and the game it self is really fun. so don't compare it to tolkens original works but sorta see it as a byproduct

[@AwokenGenius]

boon pinkerton That movie is just like the comic (300) it stayed extremely true to the comic and the comic took some liberties here and there to make it more appealing to a modern audience. Good point you made.

[@Siencyns1989]

I think it's also worth noting that due to the license involved, these games take place in the movie universe, which left basically everything not shown on screen entirely undefined.

[@KamikazeChinaman]

No amount of mental acrobatics will save this travesty.

[@aaaaaa8656]

@@tysoncrash0 well made one? His analogy doesn't fit. The idea that a bastardization of the greatest fantasy author of all time's works was merely an "interpretation" is disgraceful.

[@riquestrong9496]

boon pinkerton well said my friend. 100% agree. Literally waiting forever for someone to make a game like this, just for our orc slaughtering pleasures. And hopefully get a younger generation interested in something Tolkien related

[@MarcusSanchez2525]

Tell me...WB Games...when did Lord of the Rings games abandon reason for madness!

[@redcloud16]

::elderly man shriek; commences wizard's duel::

[@MarcusSanchez2525]

Lmao XD

[@tar-maironlordofgifts5702]

Lol

[@tomrandall6539]

Against the power of loot crates, there can be no victory!

[@SynthWeaver]

LOL

[@spinspir1741]

To be fair, they never said that Celebrimbor faught and died at the Last Alliance, but in the first game one of the collectibles is Gil-Galad's Spear or a fragment from it. Celebrimbor just states that he saw his doom. Both games fall off the original lore BUT so do the movies with the Eye, that's True. And more or less both games are tied in the movieverse and that kind of timeline. If you watch The two trilogies, timeline is squished, especially at the Hobbits where happen the White Council and the cleansing of Dol Guldur and then Elrond mentions something about warning Gondor and setting a watch over Mordor. Following this Movieverse timeline AND ONLY IN THIS CASE the games are semi-plausible to lore. As for the original Tolkien's Legendarium (Books) Neither the games nor the movies are acurrate. Finally I would like to say that I like and love all 3 medias that envole around Middle Earth. Hell I even forgave the New Ring, but got completely annoyed with the Nazgul stories.

[@jaketheberge1970]

I assumed it was made to fit the movie lore. Since so little is Explained Outside of Sauron's rise and fall in the Jackson films they can't contradict as much as the books lore.

[@MenoftheWest]

Jake Theberge I agree with that.

[@creeperkiller78]

Jake Theberge that's the way I view it too

[@HeavyMetalGamingHD]

but it also doesn't make sense in the movie lore for me.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

This It makes way more sense since they do borrow heavily from Jackson's adaptations in designing the world while also doing it;'s own thing

[@lehasokolov]

Exactly. And 80% of the audience for this game may hardly remember that the movie is also based on some books.

[@SimonCarl93]

6:52 I think Monolith and WB Games wanted the 1500-2500 years Celebrimbor spent denied death and wandering alone in Mordor made him a tad unhinched. And turned his good nature corrupt, and from that they could bind him in vengance.

[@pokeyscorpion8224]

That’s exactly how I think of it too, anyone would turn bitter and cynical after going through that kinda torture

[@VariableZero]

An idea that I would have liked for the games to explore, is Celebrimbor’s lore accurate character. Overtime, I would have liked it if Celebrimbor, through Talion, could relearn his kindness, yet learn to be more discreet about who to trust.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

Judging by the Bright Lord DLC for Shadow of Mordor I can easily say that Celebrimbor was already a little bit sick in the head

[@cryptosporidium1375]

Synopsis: not lore friendly.

[@andrewsilva9721]

Even without knowing where the inaccuracies lie, these games always had a distinct "fanfiction-y" quality to me.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I have not played the games yet despite the strong changes in lore I can appreciate that they covered classic motives of LotR: that magical rings smithed with bad intentions eventually betray their masters, that good intentions alone do not protect you from becoming corrupted, and that Noldo kings too can succumb to the lust for power

[@autobotskyflame6287]

I don't find it disrespectful, more like a decent alternate reality.

[@DukePegasus]

Meh you could make the case for some of the facts indeed like creating a new ring of power could be an alternate reality, but all the time decrepencies really add up and kinda scream lazy writhing imho

[@DukePegasus]

@@littlelarry2373 I agree, and I think they are pretty well designed from a gameplay perspective. But the story is very poorly written, almost fanfiction.

[@NinjaGangSigns]

Without a doubt it could have worked if they were less lazy! I can see justifications for each of the points except the time discrepancies but they could have just rewinded the clock and replaced certain characters! Maybe they just really wanted Smeagol in there lol

[@MattyPan118]

@@DukePegasus because it is an fan fiction

[@cameronmurray5973]

Yeah

[@MenoftheWest]

Small correction here: Shadow of War was released in October of 2017, not November haha. I also wanted to add that the settings and costume designs look great! Thank you all for your support and for bringing this to my attention! I’m glad so many of you are enjoying the video!

[@Adamwofford]

Men of the West me and a friend was thinking about telling a story that took place in the fare eastern part of middle earth, manly about the two blue wizards and how they were trying to Unite the races against Sauron and he's allies on the eastern front, but of course there isn't enough there to do so and trying to come up with more or write like Tolkien didn't sound right

[@levgar5457]

How do you feel about war in the north?

[@ultraelite8281]

I think that Shadow of War and Shadow of Mordor are great games alone, but the games do not even make remote sense in the overall legendarium. Therefore, they are more fan fictions than real parts of the legendarium.

[@lowtiershadowyt9008]

my man i get what your saying but tbh they had to take these liberties with both these games cause they were trying to use the silmerilian but they coudl not use it point for point so things had to be chaged to suit the game they were making i still respect your thoughts and opinions tho keep up the great work

[@MenoftheWest]

Levgar I like War in the North! It definitely takes some liberties of its own (almost work, a few don’t) but it sticks to Tolkien’s main themes of hope, courage and love, so I like it!

[@SwedishDunedain]

I enjoy how the games somewhat uses the overarching lore to expand on things that we would not normally think about in Tolkiens universe: like all the different artifacts you find in the game. Broaches of the Two Trees, a religious statue dedicated to Morgoth and so on. And I think that they did a better job at including the lore in their own way in the first game. But all in all, both games are fan-fiction of a sort and the first game is better written then the second one imo. Since Monolith had their own vision for the games they can of course twist the narrative and lore as they want to fit their story. What I always try to keep in mind is that the games and the lore over all are two separate things that can take inspiration from each other, but they can also be enjoyed separately.

[@slapslapslapclapclapclap7048]

Do drakes exist in the actual canon? Also didn’t Tolkien want others to expand the story? I feel like they need to make a game that respects the timeline completely and focuses on another area in Middle Earth that hasn’t really been talked about in the lore

[@MenoftheWest]

Slap Slap Slap Clap Clap Clap Great question! I believe they do exist in the canon, but they are ambiguous and live in the far North so we have little information about them. The games based of Tolkien’s lore use them far more than the books do. And I agree; they should respect the canon as to make the game fit more of the central themes of Tolkien’s works.

[@tar-maironlordofgifts5702]

As far as i know, drakes exists in canon

[@maarek71]

I remember a crap load of them living in kind of a border area between the north downs and angmar in LOTRO. That game is usually pretty loyal to canon

[@juanpablogonzalez8528]

This, tolkien's legendarium provides an incredible setting to spand on, it is so huge that there is no need to change anything canon, there is enough space for new stories across all ages

[@MarcusSanchez2525]

Honestly I don’t think Tolkien wanted people to expand on his stories. If I remember right he was a hardcore perfectionist he could be writing the Fellowship of the Ring and be all the way to Moria and get stuck in his writing and start all over from the beginning. I think he allowed the Lord of the Rings to be made into movies because he thought they would never succeed in telling it as well as we can now. Take my words with a grain of salt because I am not sure how accurate this is but I do know I’m right about his perfectionism.

[@finn-3976]

I actually really enjoyed both games even lorewisw

[@TheFamousDaniel]

As a LoTR super fan, it’s disappointing to see all these changes, but as a game itself, it’s rlly good, only personal thing that rlly annoyed/offended me was, as it was to you, making Isildur and Helm HammerHand Nazgul! I can understand for a game adding, or changing a few things, like the timing of Minas Ithil/Morgul, but a few things did upset me

[@TheLordNovo]

TheFamousDaniel So, Suladan didn't offend you being a Nazgul, when they were spotted 1300 years before he was born?

[@TheFamousDaniel]

Jedi Knight 27 yes that also, I wish they didn’t put names to the nazgul in the game lol, they screwed it up

[@badungajunga7749]

Yeah hammerhand being a nazgul didn't really make any sense

[@FraserSouris]

Personally, I was cool with them being Nazgul. For isildur, Remember the Shadow games don't really dive into Talion's past and personal nature. So they needed a way to get both the audience and Talion to see Celebrimbor as going to far that was quick and impactful. Making Isildur a Nazgul works. It creates tension when he first shows up for Talion as his hero has been corrupted and later as the straw that makes him reject Celebrimbor. Had it been anyone else, Talion might have just gone along with it. Hammerhand works to forshadow all this.

[@checkmate9099]

Don’t even want to talk about the sister Nazguls...(from the DLC)

[@kotymcneal8589]

I see your points, and understand where you're coming from. I'm a big fan of the legendarium but the nitty gritty escapes me sometimes. As someone who has tried to make DnD adventures in Middle-earth I can also kinda see where the developers for the Shadow games are coming from. Sometimes you can't help but mix things up a bit for the sake of having a fun adventure without following Tolkien to a T. My view is that the Shadow games, like my DnD adventures, are just fan fiction. Accessible enough to get people into Middle-earth and maybe spark their interest enough to want to seek out the source material for themselves. But that's just me, I have a friend who is a Tolkien purist as well so I know exactly where you're coming from man. Thanks for all the great videos!

[@rahmellbrown162]

Although everything doesn’t add up, these are AMAZING GAMES. I was never into The Lord of the Rings but these games got me into the lore of The Rings. These games were very well done and put together. Story, gameplay, mechanics, so BADASSSS

[@fantasywind3923]

I could say that the new ring would definitely be under the power of the Ruling Ring not to mention that Celebrimbor was stupid enough to forge it in the very place where Sauron's Ring is at maximum power. Orodruin is not simply a volcano it's a place saturated with Sauron's power "where all other powers were subdued" so forging a new ring, using the same knowledge that Sauron provided, in the place tainted by dark power would immediately corrupt the new ring (and still if Sauron would regain his he could control and dominate it's wearer). Besides it's impossible that the new ring would in any way rival the One Celebrimbor in his very nature is much, much weaker being, he cannot compare to Sauron in power and it's not clear whether the new ring would nearly as powerful as the Three, or even the mightiest of them Vilya and those elven rings were weaker than the Ruling Ring. Celebrimbor has no chance of dominating a stronger mind, especially one trained int the domination of other minds and wills for much longer time than Celebrimbor. Sauron possesses vast mental powers. Even Tolkien himself considered that if any powerful elf lord would take and use the One Ring against Sauron, there would be no direct confrontation since this would end inevitably with failure (of course in the end this happened, but the very chance of an elf spirit dominating a much stronger divine being, mighty spirit from before time is wrong). As for the Eye it seems often simply a manifestation of his power, a projection of Sauron's mind and will. But he has farseeing abilities, without use of the palantir and it is said that in physical form his eyes are filled with light. The palantir is used by him personally but he does not have it under constant observation. It appears that the eye may be something semi physical as well. The fortress of Barad-dur has Window of the Eye: "Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally." The Eye is known to be used even before Ithil Stone fell into Sauron's hands, after the Fall of Numenor: "There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure." "There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure." The farseeing, or 'mind-sight' abilities to observe things at distance was part of Sauron's powers already in First Age: "Then Sauron made it into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil, and a menace; and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat." Of course many other things in games are against established lore from ever very minor things to big ones like entire timeline rewrite and changed course of events that disturbs the logical chain of cause and effect. For example presence of Gollum in first game is way too early, going by canon timeline Gollum would not arrive in Mordor for some time yet, he simply was not there in the supposed time frame in which first game takes place (near the end of SoM there is cutscene of Mount Doom erupting this is a specific and important event and Gollum reached Mordor after that happened). Another thing I don't believe that actions of Talion in Shadow wars stage, him somehow keeping forces of Sauron somehow contained within Mordor, is possible. First of all Talion's actions were meaningless since Sauron was not contained nor controlled only Mordor the Black Land, already before his return and after, he had a strong grip on other regions. He had control over entire southern Mirkwood and through stronghold of Dol Guldur could control much of Rhovanion and he was completely free to conquer and build an empire out of Rhun, Khand and Harad, which he did in lore. Just a few years after his return he specifically send few Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur to consolidate his strength and to keep the realms of the regions in check unable to cooperate and unite. Sauron was able to wage war on many fronts and because of his brilliance and cunning and long plan, the long game of weakening his enemies he had greater advantage and the initiative forcing free peoples to desperately defend themselves. If Talion stayed only in Minas Morgul he would not be able to prevent any invasion (besides for that he would also require to keep in his hands Morannon and Udun, and even that would not help much at this point). Sauron had other bases of operation and other means to send his forces and other ways of waging war, it also seems unlikely that Talion could directed enough of a resistance to protect the entirety of the West, in fact Sauron could have easily waged war outside while also keeping Talion occupied, that would be mere inconvenience nothing that would disturb his plans.

[@iSWORDftw]

I would argue that the whole 'another ring being forged' isn't too bad of a thing. Tolkien, after all, states that it is pure folly to try to challenge Sauron by using his ring, or mirroring his powers and methods. He demonstrated this with Boromir and Saruman in the books, and I think Monolith pulled it off rather well with Celebrimbor and Eltariel. Besides, Saruman tried to forge a Ring of his own during the books, and he may have even succeeded, as he was wearing a ring when he met Gandalf in Fellowship. Remember, the purpose of the Rings were to preserve the state of the old world, and preserve the power of the Elves in their waning days in Middle Earth. Even the One Ring was meant to preserve Sauron's own power and keep him from fading as well, aside from its other purpose to dominate the other rings. Yes, making a new ring SEEMS to contradict Tolkien here, but the new Ring actually serves the same purpose as the other twenty rings: Preserving all the power that Celebrimbor and Talion accumulated, and trying to use that power against Sauron, though would never have truly succeeded due to the waning power. As for Isildur and Helm, Isildur being corrupted and turned into a ringwraith isn't too far out of left field either. The Return of the King shows that Nazgul CAN die, as the Witch King was slain permanently at Pelennor Fields. My best guess is that the Westernesse Blade Merry carried did the deed, with Eowyn performing the coup-de-grace. And seeing as Nazgul can permanently die in canon, it's not all that far-fetched for Nazgul to have been permanently killed in the Shadows Timeline past, with Isildur and Helm being corrupted to replace fallen Nazgul, most likely with similar Westernesse blades. And honestly, if I were Sauron, and this accursed Man cut MY ring from MY hand and started wearing it around as a trophy? Hell yes, I'd twist and corrupt him to serve me for daring to be so insolent. Death would be too good for him.

[@Twist1517]

No-Face-Required my thoughts exactly. The only thing that bothers me is that Celebrimbor was there when Annatar gave ring to Helm... otherwise I was really amused by the idea that Sauron has nazgul as his employees and fires someone in order to replace them with someone more competent. I just imagine sad nazgul in Minas Morgul packing his things and leaving while other nazgul cheer him up and wish good luck.

[@w1lle1]

Well said, I agree completely. I think the games filled the blanks what I have wondered about and it succeeded very well imo.

[@nmjjmn663]

I'd agree, except for the fact that Shelob the prophetess (I can't believe I just wrote that) stated that if Celebrimbor faced Sauron with Talion instead of Eltariel they would've succeeded, and dominated Sauron's mind. Meaning that it apparently isn't folly to use a ring to defeat the Lord of the Rings. By the way, I'm sorry if this comes across at nitpicking, but the Witch-King only died in Return of the King in the sense that he never had time to recover before the One Ring was destroyed. if Frodo failed, the Witch-King would've eventually reappeared. Meaning that the Nazgul can only really die if the One Ring is destroyed. And obviously if they can't die, they can't be replaced.

[@stevemanart]

When I tried LotrO, my only real "wtf" moment was "wow there's a lot more magic around, but i guess ramping up the magic level does make sense for an action/fantasy game", but everything i learn about Shadows games just makes me more and more annoyed.

[@pernelladams448]

I just got done rewatching this and I have one question: If you were able to try and fix these games lorewise how would you?

[@tomn8932]

15:00 To be fair, there is an overarching message that power corrupts in Shadow of War and that regardless of initial intent, absolute power corrupts absolutely (i.e. with Celebrimbor trying to become the new "Dark Lord).

[@MattyPan118]

I need a sequel using Tolkien's unfinished sequel

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

"Dark Lord will be replaced by the Bright Lord" Yes, it's indeed implying that Celebrimbor is not that different from Sauron

[@SirShadeyy]

As much as I like the Shadow of Mordor games, I don't exactly like how they handled the lore. I personally enjoy the games but not the lore

[@thenoblerogue]

Thank you for the lore break down, I'm not the most knowledgeable so I needed someone to help me see the differences. I think I have something to offer here that should really be interesting for us all. As has been stated the games are noncannon and the developers knew that, what makes these stories isn't the elements they bring in from the legendarium, but instead the themes they are working with. The nature of greed, the power of nature, and the folly of hubris, and more. If anyone is interested please engage me here as I'd love to talk about it.

[@savagejoker22]

they should make a middle earth game based on the blue wizards, its something thats never been seen so you could take creative liberties

[@blackwatchcommander104]

I just see it as an else worlds story

[@dantegoat8568]

and a good else world story for sure.

[@RexVenge95]

What really, really broke the lore for me was the addition of "The Nazgul Sisters" in Shadow of War's DLC. I get how they changed the rules for being a Nazgul as someone who wears the nine rings at any given time, but for random easterling twins to successfully kill two of the original Ringwraiths and take their rings is just utter sacrilege.

[@BEZERKSTUDIOS718]

Tbf there do exist weapons that are specifically made to kill nazgul in lore so besides, the most powerful nazgul, the witch King, was defeated by a hobbit and a woman so eh

[@pokeyscorpion8224]

@@BEZERKSTUDIOS718 Exactly. And if the lord of the Nazgul can be killed so simply, the others would definitely be much easier to kill

[@morpheusbutasasquirtle4431]

I think it kinda goes to show that there can be all sorts of people in the world out there (middle earth and such not real life) that may very well be complete badasses.

[@everydayweeaboo7049]

When looking at Shadow of Mordor/War I think of them like I think of Dark Souls. The story is muddled and not much is understood about the who what when and where. The games are not cannon and I respect it but when telling a story dont we all take a few liberties in the details. Thats why I think the Mordor/War Games are stories being told rather but not being told by Tallion to someone

[@davidfletcher6703]

I believe that the source of media that took the least amount of liberties are Jackson's version of the legendarium, the one that took the most liberties would be Rings of Power, it seems to me that the characters in that iteration are alike to the ones in the original story are in name only, so much so that I'm not going to sully myself by watching it

[@rorydonaldson2794]

Could you do a simular video with the hobbit movies? Compare the book to the movies, id love that so much

[@ZarathustrasCrown]

There's a solid reviewer around you can find who does pretty solid jobs at that in the meantime, show called "Lost in Adaptation" where he literally does nothing but compare book versions to movie versions of stories...he's done the first two hobbit films but still waiting on the last one...consequently, he introduced me to a couple books I didn't even know existed...did you know Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Neverending Story were books? Or Rambo First Blood? And the books of those are just NUTS, way, WAY darker than the movies... :P

[@ewanwalker5967]

I know this is a year late but there's also a reviewer called Lindsay Ellis who has a brilliant 4 part series on the Hobbit films and why they were so bad.

[@patrickramseyart]

@@ewanwalker5967 But like... they were good tho... * sulks away *

[@maxexp]

I'm a bit late... But still enjoyed this video, and agree with every point. Little trivia, one of the writers of Shadow of War stated in an interview that "Shelob was the secret hero of Lord of the Rings." He went on to say something to the effect of Shelob making a deal with Gollum to lead the hobbits to her cave, and she would chase them down the correct paths, leading them closer to their goal. Needless to say, the entire idea there is beyond ridiculous. I like the gameplay, but the writers definitely felt they had better ideas than Tolkien did, as they showed little to no respect for his vision of Middle-Earth

[@juliada8121]

I cannot overstate how much I love and appreciate this channel

[@lukeskywalkerthe2nd773]

Awesome video Yoystan you truly delved quite deep into the "altered lore" of the Middle Earth games I'm quite fond of them but the only thing I don't really like about them is the very drastic altering of Tolkiens lore I know they are non-canon but it just annoys me SOM altered quite a bit imo but SOW took it way to far from Shelob can take on a fair form to being able to forge a New Ring it just annoys me honestly sometimes but they are non-canon so it doesn't really matter tbh anyway love this video and can't wait for the next one!!!! :)

[@massaweed420]

What annoyed me the most was the people who tried to say that the games were actually more canon then Tolkiens established lore. I honestly couldn't believe that people were really THAT ignorant on the lore, or that in love with the games that they made it into their own canon...

[@linusgomez9830]

So I love this game but the lore is not there so I feel like if all of this happens then it would be in its own altered timeline type thing. I am also not saying these games are cannon just to clarify.

[@J37T3R]

I'm curious about one thing: if you were to try to re-write the games' stories to make them as lore-friendly as you could while still keeping the rest of the game mostly the same in concept, how would you do it? I'm not nearly well-versed enough in Middle Earth lore to come up with something myself, but I'm wondering if you were to pick perhaps a different time period and characters, could it be done?

[@Boom__6678]

I'd love to see that.

[@finghinmccarthy5021]

I very much enjoyed both games, while some of the lore alterations bother me a little i like to see people put a new twist or spin on things as afterall the developers didnt want to stick exactly to the lore as they didnt believe they could make the best game they could that way. I like to view the games as more of a love letter than adaptation.

[@lotrmaster5456]

There is, however, affirmation of the existence of an eye. During their trip into Mordor Frodo and Sam even see it, peering out throw a window and looking toward the west.

[@Saltboi1823]

The worst part is the fact that to tell the story they wanted to tell, they never had to defy the lore for most of the game. Like, why not instead of literally being at the black gate, maybe Talion was simply the captain of a small human outpost that was caught in the wave of Sauron's army? Perhaps instead of Celebrimbor, Talion was saved and bonded with the spirit of some lesser Maia? Then, maybe instead of being nazgul, Talion fights 2 mortal servants of Sauron, one being coerced into his situation by Sauron. Which is why Talion takes sympathy on him as he too, perhaps was made to run the outpost where his family was slain as punishment for defending Ioreth? Now, this would make the idea of Talion becoming a nazgul somewhat more murky, but I feel like I could come up with an answer for that eventually.

[@tylercummings1458]

I definitely have to take the lore away from the games to enjoy them, which I do, but I think one of the aspects that I like about them pertaining to lore is that it gives a chance to open others to Tolkien’s world. Like if they get anyone wanting to find more about the world because of something in game like say, “Tar Goroth” the balrog, they may find out about the original balrogs like Gothmog which could lead to even more tales, much like I felt after watching the Fellowship for the first time. I mean it could lead people to fall into wonderful rabbit hole that is Tolkien’s works. TL:DR The games tho flawed could introduce new people to the lore.

[@philipwrighton]

I have absolutely no idea what you said most of the time but you are smart. Love these videos.

[@richardjared960]

As much as I love these games. They do break the lore a lot. I see them as being side stories in a universe I love. Great video as always!

[@ewilson9650]

Celebrimbor didn’t die in the last alliance in the games, he died in his own wee rebellion thing when he took the one ring. And the point that his soul never should have come back since he was in the halls of mandos, since he had the one ring, and could have been corrupted by it, maybe it makes sense that his soul never reaches the afterlife, being “banished from death”. This in turn may have altered his described kind nature as the one ring may have nurtured a desire for power.

[@ohwhy3471]

You forgot that celebrimbor was "controlled" by Sauron and helped perfect the one ring so that's why he knows how to make another one ring in the first game but i agree with your message in the end

[@rickeymariu1]

As for the Necromancer. He did not actually raise the Balrog. The ring's energry basicly did, and for some strange reason "woke the dead" which then "required a little coaxing" in the Necromancer's words.

[@happywheeler4268]

When I first heard hints of this game and the person being fused with Talion, I immediately thought of Gorlim, however, when Celebrimbor was revealed, I just rolled my eyes. Talion would have made a better tale in the First Age with Gorlim fusing with him. They could have done a TON more with that. That's what I would have done. This is not CANON whatsoever. Timeline, Characters, etc. everything is bastardized. You couldn't have had a better analysis of this and review. Great job. I am going with Gandalf on this one: "Saruman believes only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I've found. It is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay."

[@LordMortanius]

To be fair, we know even less of Gorlim than we do of Celebrimbor. The sum of his existence can be summarized as "Sauron made him think his dead wife was alive."

[@happywheeler4268]

Maybe to someone who hasn't read the Silmarillion or Lost and Unfinished Tales. Since this game is inferred and made up... well that was my point, obviously.

[@austinroy5146]

Obviously someone who has read the Silmarillion would know about Gorlim, etc. but I'm pretty sure WB wouldn't be able to sell a story set in the first age as well as they sold these. To a wider, more general audience, the stuff they set the story around was more common knowledge and makes more sense from a marketing standpoint. Of course they should've made it better lore-wise, but for a company, they would consider the general audience rather than only people who are fully informed on Tolkien's works

[@happywheeler4268]

Either way doesn't matter to me, didn't buy the game nor do I care what there marketing tools are.

[@austinroy5146]

Yeah I only mentioned it because I'm studying game design so I kind of had to consider some of their actions from a developer's standpoint

[@jarodlalonde5545]

This video was wonderfully made and all the points were true, and valid, however I know that monolith didn't mean any disrespect to the Tolkien estate or his works. They quite simply were trying to make an enjoyable gaming experience in an amazing universe that has had some tragic failures in trying to be moved into the market. While yes, they took heavy liberties and changed many things, I believe that it was, as a general statement, very well put together. They achieved what they sought out to do. Not to mention, the gameplay in both of these games was fluid and responsive (especially in the second) and the nemesis system was an innovation in the gaming market. Which really just puts more fame onto the LOTR universe.

[@iberiesees8313]

Let's play a game: Take a shot everytime the word respect comes up 2 shots when the word respectful comes up 3 shots when the word disrespect comes up 4 shots when the word disrespectful comes up

[@bloodassassin9285]

Nah just down all 4 bottle spirits then

[@euclyptuseuphoria3759]

In my opinion, even with all the lore inconsistencies, I stil love these games to death. It feels less like a story from LOTR as much as it is a power fantasy.

[@Demolitiondude]

Since the games are in the same universe but alternate timelines. The shadow games are elseworld for lotr.

[@FrankTheTank17]

Say what you will about the lore and what not, I’m a huge fan of these two games. I’ve played them both and finished them several times and the movies as well. I grew up watching them and they are some of my favorite movies.

[@openalpha01]

My biggest pet peeve regarding these games is that Celebrimbor turns into a wraith. When in fact, as far as I know only corrupted men are turned into wraiths. Celebrimbor is an immortal being, whose fate is determine by Mandos after they're slayed.

[@timonsolus]

It would make much more sense for the wraith to be Isildur, rather than Celebrimbor. Talion would have a deeper connection to Isildur than he had to Celebrimbor. The whole ‘New Ring’ sub plot was unnecessary IMO - especially since Talion bonded with the wraith without it, and then was able to continue his quest after losing it.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

Ironically enough, Celebrimbor was corrupted by the ring too, so devs could easily make the wraith to be any other man or even make a new character Although I do like the characteristic of an every man who just wants to kill big bad villain and a warmonger, who wants to conquer all of Mordor

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

​@@timonsolus and it would work better than Nazgul Isildur

[@piaspeak]

I don't play these games but your well thought out and lucid response was very much appreciated. I enjoy your work, your authenticity and insights. Keep it up.

[@MalkiaxMedia]

Could you do a video about the lore in the Battle for Middle-Earth RTS games from the early 2000s? I played those games religiously and are the driving force behind me still loving the Lord of the Rings universe

[@MenoftheWest]

Malkiax Definitely! I love those games!

[@Phantom_Zer0]

@@MenoftheWest - i was going to ask the same :)

[@fibinock]

One thing the games did super well is parallelism, echoing other characters and themes... I’m a real sucker for that sort of thing. For example, I really liked how they portrayed Shelob as an anti-Galadriel! Galadriel, fair-haired Lady of Light who sees possible futures through the reflecting pool versus Shelob, dark-haired spawn of Ungoliant, literal primeval darkness, accompanied with her own visions of the future. Even their voices sound similar! Another was the echoing of Galadriel’s One Ring outburst in the things Celebrimbor says when he possesses the Ring. Her final, menacing statement “All shall love me and despair” parallels perfectly with Celebrimbor’s “All shall fear me and rejoice,” demonstrating how similar the effect is on two very powerful Elves. Actually gave me chills when I heard it... Sorry I’m late to the comments, I had to play Shadow if War first, lol

[@divinecrusader4258]

Little mistake, you said Talion attacked Isildur at minas morgul, however they were actually fighting on the bridge of bara-dur

[@dravenmowers1631]

They had their first meeting in Minas Morgul before their big fight near Barad-Dûr.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

​@@dravenmowers1631 did they? I'm pretty sure Talion only met 5 generic Nazgul and the Witch King

[@TechCom101]

I would like to make a debate regarding Shelob having a human form. Because she is the mightiest of Ungoliant's children, that alone should explain her being able to take human form whereas he kin in Mirkwood do not, also because they are more savage and less intelligent that her and prefer their spider forms. Shelob does seem to have some idea of what the future holds and she tried to ensure the fall of Sauron. I believe in the lore, Sauron considered her his "cat", something she likely took offense to. This I believe is the reason she did not take human form and try to talk to Frodo or Sam, she knew the only way to quicken their journey into Mordor was to attack them in her spider-form; that or Sauron weakened her in some way to trap her in her spider-form. As for after Sam stabbed, maybe changing to human form is what saved her? Also I read a MCU + LotR crossover fanfic series called Avengers of the Ring on FF.net and I am curious if Shelob had a brood that she devoured when unable to feed on anything else and if the day she was stabbed happened to be the day her latest brood were born and if they then devoured their mother?

[@Badboyben1422]

Excellent video as always! I hope you get a chance to do The Third Age, if you never heard of it before, it's a video game. PS2 Gamecube etc. About a Gondor Captain named Berethor and his journey throughout Middle Earth, starting from Eregion to Pelennor fields meeting allies and battling enemies in turn based style combat game. And basically interacting with the characters from the books. Though the game uses the designs of the characters from the movies. Now what I loved most was the lore pieces that would find throughout the game. And that Gandalf and sometimes Saruman would narrate the segments. Maybe you could do a video on that. Oh and one more thing and I quite enjoyed it. There was a scene in SOW that showed Shelob and Sauron together in his tower and that reminded me of the quote from the Two Towers, "his cat he calls her, but she owns him not." was interesting to see the least.

[@MenoftheWest]

Dragorath Tatsu I love that game!

[@themightycm]

I enjoyed the collectibles that had a voice over, I felt they were much more respectful to the lore while adding new things. I especially enjoyed the ones about the blue wizards

[@masterchief2982]

I always look at it like it’s an alternate timeline where what happens in the games are what happened in that timeline. Like in Dragon ball where the future trunks timeline is drastically different

[@MrSRA13]

I really enjoy these games. But you are absolutely spot on. My friends don't understand why I get frustrated and switch it off but some of the liberties are just ridiculous. Why make changes to a world in which is already faultless, with so much depth it can have endless possibilities. It really does wind me up. But I enjoy the games for what they are. I feel the movies(LOTR mainly) made subtle changes that worked for the film and were overall respectful. I feel they captured the atmosphere and environments perfectly which these games also fail to do. The fact there was an incredible musical score also helped. If only the game had got those rights.

[@vittorio74]

Try lord of the rings online if you want a game more lore-friendly with lotr. It would be great if you could make reviews of this game as well

[@jarrodwraight9971]

I liked your video, I liked the games and I really appreciate you highlighting the differences between the two media (though I feel your persistent usage of the word 'disrespectful' is extreme). One thing I thought; Celebrimbor might have been kind but, after Sauron's betrayal was revealed, he would have become bitter and his resolve hardened. I also think that after the 'eternity' of being a wraith, he would be bitter, wrathful and determined to beat Sauron at all costs regardless of his past traits.

[@tomthumbstick1033]

"One does not simply design a game set in Mordor. Its black lore is teeming with more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, nor can it be redeemed or somehow set to accomplish any seemingly good purpose free of the taint of Shadow. And the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland riddled with fire, ash, and dust. The very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with 10,000 game developers could you do this. It is folly!" Okay, that may be a bit of an exaggeration, but my main problem with the games that prevented me from buying them is not only the disrespect to Tolkien's lore. From what I could tell by watching game trailers and KZbin videos and such was that the foundational conceit of the games is that you could indeed fight fire with fire, or darkness with darkness. The One Ring could supposedly be opposed by another evil ring. The way to counteract Sauron's will to dominate all of Middle Earth was apparently to exert a stronger will to dominate orcs and such creatures to turn them against each other and the Dark Lord himself. This is clearly not what Tolkien intended. Gandalf did not give Frodo the speech about Bilbo showing mercy to Gollum for nothing. Gandalf and Galadriel both knew that their temptation to use the One Ring for good would be their downfall and bring about the ruin of Middle Earth. As Galadriel said in the movie: "I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this. In place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair!" For the games to portray that evil plans can be opposed by evil means runs counter to Tolkien's clear intent that evil must be conquered by good. Thank you for making this video and clearly stating the deficiencies of these games without resorting to an angry rant. Cheers to you! Hurrah and huzzah!

[@all1nerd377]

I still think they could have made a third game and call it "Shadow of Doom". Its right there!

[@michaeldean9684]

I'd be interested to see a similar video about War in the North, I loved that game but it always felt a bit off lore wise

[@noahwilhelm9201]

Also, did you note how Celebrimbor says that Minas Ithil was once apart of his kingdom? That was completely wrong, since Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion, on the west side of Khazad-dum (Moria), and Minas Ithil was the city of Isildur. Also, Celebrimbor never led an army into Mordor, but was murdered by Sauron in Eregion after Sauron interrogated him, leading Elrond to make the refuge of Imladris (Rivendell).

[@MsBellaGames]

Loved the video, as always. Since I didn't plan on playing either of those games I was curious to see how they stacked up to canon and you answered my curiosity quite nicely. I'd love to see you do some videos about LOTRO, if you haven't already. I've also been a fan of the game for 7+ years now. :)

[@christianfarren1179]

Beautiful work MOTW! One question I hadn't considered: since Celebrimbor became corrupted this series and tried to take Sauron's place, would he be placed in the same limbo state as Saruman? I don't quite remember what happens to corrupted elves after death

[@MenoftheWest]

Christian Farren I feel that they would be held in a separate place in the Halls of Mandos or they would be cast out into the void.

[@thomasg.5818]

Really liked the video and the thought you put into it. Ultimately though I don't think there's any reason try to fit the Shadow games into the Legendarium but for different reasons than what you mentioned. To me the story of those games was always cliche and lackluster, it's only redeeming quality is hkw simply served to provide you an explanation on why your doing what your doing in the game. The key element that makes the games appealing to me is the gameplay unique orc/olog characters you fight in the campaign and open world. By that reasoning I am still glad the games were made to begin with even if it's disrespectful to Tolkien's works. From what I've seen, most Lord of the Rings games either recycle the story of the films or movies. The Shadow of games feels like a much needed breath of fresh air. While I respect your love for Lord of the Rings online both as a game and as a way to build on the lore of the Legendarium in a respectful fashion. Games of that genre, specifically MMOs are not doing too well in the age we live in. The number of truly financially stable MMOs can be count on the fingers of two hands. Can there be a new Lord of the Rings game that's not an MMO nor copying the storyline of the book/film trilogy while staying true to the lore of thr Legendarium. Maybe but I doubt it Anyways great review looking forward to your new theory videos.

[@hitokiriizo]

old vid but here it goes. i could actually see isildur falling to sauron and becoming a wraith but it depends on if the witch king was able to capture/steal souls upon their deaths. he had the ring for a couple of years and we saw what its influence could do with gollum and bilbo who did have it for significantly longer but were less corruptible due to being hobbits where men were much easier to corrupt, especally since it seemed like the ring instantly corrupted isildur the moment he took possession of it(like 20 mins max between the cutting of the fingers and going into mount doom)....it'd be kinda poetic to have him fall into wraithhood due to his own hubris as well, like nietzsche's quote "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."

[@wesomek]

Sounds like a whole lot of, "rules to not be broken and disbelief to not be held", being had here. Idk, I like the idea of there being an orc necromancer who summons a balrog from the icey depths. Even Token was unsure how many they're was and made changes back and forth through the story. To make too many hard rules is to also be extra critical to the original author.

[@JoaoPedro-qp9cw]

Hey Yoystan, I've been thinking about a lotr game concept for a while, it would change a major event of the legendarium, but remain faithful to Tolkien's concepts and rules(the one thing SoM and SoW haven't done). What are your thoughts about it?

[@saikonakoshi4334]

Please rant for me. Love the games but fuuuuuccckkk did they take some liberties with the lore that I absolutely hate.

[@FraserSouris]

I feel they're like an alternate comic book version. To that they work really well

[@OnesieTwos]

This is interesting! As someone largely unfamiliar with the deeper aspects of Tolkien's stuff, the inconsistencies of these games went well over my head. Eye-opening!

[@DrEvil-nx3xx]

The lore has massive holes, but the gameplay/graphics are incredible.

[@dominikszakacs7070]

I agree with you. I'm not entirely a Tolkien expert, but for me there are some irritating mistakes in these games as well. Yet, it is still my favourite Middle-Earth game ever. Why? Because the story is, in my point of view, beautiful. Yes, the the laws and core elements of Tolkien's world is not stable in these games, but I think we should rather consider these games as alternate dimensions or alternate stories. The game developers picked up interesting pieces from Tolkien's world, and sort of recreated it. And maybe some of you think that it's not entirely respectful towards Tolkien, but I think it is.

[@talion6642]

May u do a video of how u Could bring the SoW/M to work with the legendarium And BTW they had to look that the people like it and play it it would be all to confusing for a new player or someone who doesn’t know lotr

[@juanpablogonzalez8528]

i would like to add one little thing, i don't think a Balrog is something that can be summoned by a necromancer or any sorcerer as it is a maiar, just like Gandalf or Saruman, it is a powerful being that has it's own purpose on middle earth and not some demon or "dark spirit" as they seem to treat them in this game

[@jaketheberge1970]

Would you be interested in doing a similar video with the movies lore compared to the books? Did you like the Movies BTW?

[@MenoftheWest]

Jake Theberge Great idea! It would have to be multiple videos but that would be so fun! I love the movies, they are what introduced me into the lore!

[@jaketheberge1970]

Men of the West Me too. Oddly enough I've read The Hobbit and The Silmirillion(I know I butchered that name) but never lotr entirely. Especially since the Silmirillion is a harder read IMO.

[@mikepetrakis4450]

I would also love to see this, also to inform you another channel has allready made videos about this topic. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpPck55vetRlpbM Even though they didn't seem to have a complete knowledge of the legendarim.

[@stormbear3816]

movies vs book?i only say one thing. the EFFING Army of the dead at Minas Tirith.

[@riffz6065]

Please do this for your next video:)

[@stephanegger9887]

When I startet playing, I "farmed" a legendary Orc, as he had bad stats and didnt look unique enough to keep him. After killing him ~5times, I called my caragor and he came riding on it. Now known as "the blight" I nearly shit my pants. He killed me 2 times, so I recruited him. Sadly he later died in the fighting pits.

[@JackChurchill101]

Very nice... Though I'll stick to my Third Age: Total War, for respectful lore games.

[@mattledford2873]

I started watching you because i started playing Shadow of Mordor. Your channel totally revitalized a childhood love of the movies and books. They were the first books i ever fully read and actually enjoyed. So i decided to read them again and watch all rhe extended cuts again 😅

[@christianrussberg4547]

Who can make the most powerful ring? A literal demigod and one of the most powerful beings in the universe, who invented the very idea of crafting rings imbued with power? or One Gondor soldier and a ghost boi?

[@danielhennessy824]

loved the video, I think the story is aimed at those are only familiar with the films rather than the books or any other middle earth lore because if you look at it that way, it makes perfect sense. But yes, I completely agree with everything you've said here. Such fun games though!

[@braderslooloo]

Unfortunately, if they wanted to set these games in the lotr universe, they couldn't not break the lore with the type of game. No matter what time period they could've set it in, it would've broken the lore. Thus so, it is, in my eyes and the developers eyes, simply a separate entity. I'm sure they didn't mean any disrespect when making these games, and what games they are!

[@SamuraiOniReaver]

I knew it, I knew WB was doing there own thing, thank you for explaining the differences lore wise, wow.. So it's WB's fault on how Talion got treated, it should of been Talion and Celebrimbor that fought Sauron, So what if Talion wanted to destroy Sauron.. That would have ended the conflict, But no, WB had to portray Celebrimbor as a backstabber.. I'm sure if that was a reality, Celebrimbor would never have turned his back on Talion like that man, and then he asks Eltariel to fight Sauron with him? I'm sitting there like are you kidding me? ughh, I hate that ending.. Anyways awesome video man, I'm definitely gonna check out the rest of you're videos as I am a big fan of the universe and lore Tolkien has created myself

[@saintdonoghue]

I've been wondering what you thought of this very subject! Such a terrific video!

[@death-king1834]

I overall enjoy the Shadow games, I think overall they excel best in their gameplay like the Nemesis system then really in their stories cause man oh man the liberties taken with the lore and such can be quite frustrating at times. In fact I often question whether these games would have benefitted better if they had been their own original ip instead of using the Middle-earth name. If anything that probably would have been better as they wouldn't have had been so restricted with the rules and timeline of Tolkien's world.

[@xiaoquanyang402]

SOW is a novel within Tolkin's novel. Its very existence is disrespectful toward Tolkin's works. As a LOTR fans who played and enjoyed SOW and SOM I try not to take them too seriously lore vise.

[@mortenpedersen763]

I just consider it fanfic on cocain. What to fight a balrog? Fuck yeah! Ride a dragon? You got it bro! Control an army of orcs and undead? YEAH!!! You got it! Become a Nazgul, ultimate edgelord? Got ya there! Monolith more or less looked at the lore and asked; What would people love to do?

[@spooglet3279]

Not to strike too hard, but you spelled "Tolkien" wrong.

[@Mulcam29]

I am a Tolkein fan too, but I can't seem to see it as disrespectful.

[@nastrael]

It can't even be bothered to answer to basic chronology. Then there's the matter of the blatant disrespect to the IP in general with the whole lootbox thing. Especially after the Tolkien Estate already successfully sued Warner Bros over the use of the IP for gambling.

[@Mulcam29]

Nastrael Rowe when did the law suit happen? Never heard of it happening nor do i care since technically it's not gambling or any different than what happens in their other game Injustice 2. Then adding that it actually does fit the chronology of the movies as its a movie tie in series only using some things from all the other books.

[@electric_kool-aid]

Thank you so much. I’ve been searching for the lore of SoM explained for a long time. Most videos are about the general storyline.

[@donratto9651]

I like the actual games but damn the lore annoyed me whilst playing. If you could have a game set on any part of Tolkien' s legendariam what would it be?

[@MenoftheWest]

The Guy Over There Open-world game, like Skyrim but set in Beleriand during the First Age and the War of Wrath. That would be so much fun! What about you friend?

[@k9vendettathewolfofmordor529]

anything to do with the haradrim

[@donratto9651]

Men of the West I think you could have a really good adventure game taking place during the early moments of arda doing something cool/artistic with the music of Ainur

[@MagusMarquillin]

+the guy over there Hmm, something like Loom then, except you constantly have Melkor trying to drown out your song creations. It's a cool idea but probably the hardest point in the legendarium to conceptualize - I'd be all over a Middle Earth adventure game set when/wherever.

[@DamonNomad82]

I would like to see a game, or, better yet, a series of games, based on the life of Isildur. His story is absolutely epic from beginning to end, from his youth on Numenor to his rule of Gondor and his taking of the One Ring.

[@ChaosToRule]

I have no doubt that the dev's on the games read the books and appendices and then they filled all the gap's with the writings of David Day. According to whom, Tom Bombadil was only a Maiar and so was Goldberry. Great video as always, and thank you for saving me a ton of money on a game lol

[@aidbotwoody939]

It's a shame that these games so badly break the cannon because so many of their ideas are really interesting to explore. I'd love to see something exploring the stories of the nazgūl because as far as I'm aware most are unnamed and it seems like some really fantastic stories could be built from them. Also some stories based in the east would be awesome because it is a very interesting setting that isn't actually covered to extensively (at least as best to my knowledge). There are so many positive things put into these games but the lack of care given to major narrative points really saddens me.

[@thenoblerogue]

Why does breaking the lore negate the value of the ideas expressed?

[@MenoftheWest]

John Smith It doesn’t necessarily. Again, sometimes it works and is even good to take certain liberties, like the movies cutting out the Old Forest to save time. If they hadn’t, The Fellowship of the Ring movie might not have done too well as it would’ve been too long. However, liberties should stay relevant and true to the themes and motifs of its inspiration. The Nazgûl changes made these heroes into corrupted beings, depicting that those who desire justice will inevitably fall, as Talion does. It isn’t a very inspirational theme, even though Tolkien’s works have many inspirational themes in it. Again, this is just my opinion, but I believe that is part of what it takes to make a good adaptation of a source material.

[@NiCoNiCoNiCola]

​@@MenoftheWest Helm took the ring to avenge himself and take back his daughter, all for power and strength. Suladan took the ring after Sauron's promises for power and again, was mostly corrupted willingly. Isildur didn't even accept the ring himself, he was literally dead when it was bound to him. Talion is the only one who got properly corrupted by the Ring, gradually losing his humanity, control and soul for the power to control and defend Mordor

[@GreyKingZero]

I really love your work it really gives so much explanation to why things are and how they work. If possible I would want Talion to have been a character of lord of the rings but it would require alot of work to put someone like him into the world Tolkien made. A story within a story you know.

[@OneMadPanda]

In my opinion, it is a great game. But a terrible Middle-Earth game. It breaks so many rules and things .. I played through it and is beautiful and fun and I'll eternally recommend people play it. But it is just not a good place if you care about the established Lore of things. And to be honest. It's fine for a game like this to exist. I just don't know if it really needed the Tolkien tie-in to really work. Also, frankly? The first game was okay. It took it's freedom with the story and with who Kelebrimbor was, but I could overlook that for the fun gameplay. But the second game decided to just go completely off the rails. People just using Magic like it is a thing that anyone can just do. Necromancy just being normal. Orcs whom you blatantly killed returning, again and again. It is simply not how this world works and it'd have been better to make it a standalone universe, instead of treating an ancient and well loved source that badly.

[@KingGalby]

I really have no problem with liberties taken with dating, even such things as the late fall of Minas Ithil. It's when they twisted the essence of characters or themes against the nature of Tolkein's work, such as Binding Talion's spirit after death, or turning Isildur or Hammer Hand into nazgul. Also pretty sure they could have found or created a more fitting character than Shelob for her role. Did I hear correctly that Sauron's Eye is claimed to be an abomination of tangled spirits of three characters? Save me.

[@F5Metal]

The games are amazing and I like them both, personally I think disrespectful is too strong a word and not true in the slightest for two reasons. 1. It's obvious this game more or less takes place in the movies not the books, the LOTR trilogy had to make changes from the books too. You can't make a film exactly like the book, that's being a slave to the material and boring; what's the point of watching a movie based on a book if it's gonna be like the book page for page. You said the Eye of Sauron was not in the book but it is in the films so maybe thats why Sauron and Celebrimbor are trapped together. 2. Don't take the lore in the games too seriously, I know your a hardcore fan but it's not all bad. You keep saying they're being disrespectful but personally I think they're not, the writers of these games know everything about Middle Earth and they're doing a good job of telling their own story. Some decisions are wrong but it's not disrespectful, would you say the movies are disrespectful for cutting and changing the lore because Christopher Tolkien does but everyone else love the LOTR trilogy. You wanna talk disrespect look no further than Star Wars, what Disney's doing with the current movies is just pure sacrilege; they erased the Expanded Universe and created a new shittier one. All the stories with the Solo twins and Boba Fett: GONE! It's non cannon now but the difference between that non cannon and this non cannon is that at least is the Middle Earth games are far better. The Tolkienverse got off easy if you ask me, it could have been a lot worse like killing all the Valar single handedly with a dagger or something like that. The point is that even though it's not following the source material it's still fun and kind of creative really, their were some bad choices like I said such as; Shelob shapeshifting, Isildur and Helm, Mordor with forests and Celebribor being cold hearted in the end, he did put a lot of his strength including his soul into the new ring just like Sauron did with his ring. And creating a new ring isn't exactly a bad plan either; all I'm saying is just enjoy it for what it is not what it's suppose to be, the characters were portrayed beautifully (with a few exceptions but mostly pretty good, it's good to actually see Sauron in physical form for a change) and c'mon a half man half wraith killing Orcs and Uruks, you can't tell me that's not cool; even your inner nerd had to have loved that.

[@dancarpenter6321]

Amen, man.

[@dancarpenter6321]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I recently found your channel (which I LOVE, by the way. Keep up the great work, Yoystan!!). Anyway, on to my comment - Years ago, a friend of mine convinced me to watch LOTR. I was hesitant at first but eventually gave in. Prior to LOTR, I wasn't really into fantasy. However after watching FOTR, I was instantly hooked. I watched all 3 films, then the extended editions, and eventually ended up buying the book (which inevitably led to the Silmarillion, and so on). I was a bit surprised with the changes that Jackson made, but I understood them. A true-to-the-book movie would have been very slow, and FOTR may have been more of a musical than anything. The same goes for the games. They did take several liberties with the lore; some of which were upsetting. However if you're able to separate the game and the lore, you're left with two extremely entertaining games. Despite the inaccuracies, they re-ignited my love for all things Middle-Earth. Hopefully Monolith inspired at least a few people to put down the controller and pick up a book. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, it was so exciting to feel like I was a PART of Middle-Earth, not just reading/watching it; no matter if it was canon or not.

[@WizardAnimations]

Lol this is my 3rd time being 1st on your vids. But I don't even think Talion as a whole existed in middle Earth.

[@alexekers9436]

Homie Wizard he didnt he was made up for the game

[@tumhornkingslayer6411]

Well, he could have been, we don't know.

[@jeffreymilliman2306]

Shadow of Mordor always struck me as a bunch of game ideas that just got roughly shoehorned into this setting, with little regard to how well it fit. If it was in a different setting, I'd be able to enjoy it a bit more.