Shadow of the Torturer (spoiler free review) by Gene Wolfe

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[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Soooo it turns out this one just went straight over my head. I was reading this like a traditional fantasy story and didn't read anything about the series before I read it, instead of paying closer attention to non-obvious things going on in the background and realizing it's almost more of a sci-fi story. WHOOSH. I might have to re-read this eventually with a different mindset. But I honestly don't understand how people would pick up on these things if they hadn't heard that first.

[@tasosalexiadis7748]

You need to read all parts of it. They don't work as standalones books. Consider them as one huge novel.

[@AndreDeSimone-dy1cz]

I've got this one in March, but might try to do the series as one book. Or do Shadow and Claw, a palette cleanser, then Sword and Citadel

[@marcweber8509]

Sounds like a good plan.

[@OrlandoOrtiz570]

Don't make excuses. You didn't get it the first time just like no one gets it the first time. Read it again and you'll at least not pretend like your "plot first" mindset is the end all be all.

[@FrankOConnor]

Honestly props for admitting it. Most people would eat all the complaints and stop reading the comments. But yeah, it's absolutely not what you describe in the review.

[@kurtgoldstein3254]

I understand and accept all your arguments, except that people like this series because it's older. I have a lot of reasons why this is my favorite series and in my opinion it is written in such a way that it will never get old. The concepts and technologies described in it are timeless. Gene Wolfe was genius.

[@Br1cht]

You tell him brother Kurt!

[@OrlandoOrtiz570]

Yeah, it was all pretty fair criticism until he reduced its popularity down to nostalgia. It probably isn't the first sci fi series that does the self referencing thing with the stories from the Brown Book on top having the "found document" trope but it's a major reason why it's so popular.

[@philbrowning2779]

No, Matt… people like it because it’s good, not old. Lol

[@lughmanwatandust1020]

​@@philbrowning2779 said the old guy

[@jeroenadmiraal8714]

Lol, don't read the rest. For me it's a 10/10 but you're not getting enough out of this because you're looking for a different kind of storytelling. There is actually so much story in this that every single line counts for revelations and increasing complexity later on, if you feel like connecting endless hints, but the book has filtered through your mind in a way that only a skeleton of story remains visible.

[@thelasthandbook6704]

My favorite useless bit of Gene Wolfe trivia is that he was one of the engineers who designed the equipment used to make Pringle's Potato Chips. IIRC his name is even on one of the patents.

[@andreabknight]

I heard he inspired the pringles logo- the man with the moustache

[@Zedible]

100% the first time is a mind fuck, where you feel like Wolfe is so much smarter than you. On the re-read though, oh boy on the re-read after finishing the 4th…Masterpiece. Absolute masterpiece

[@Belemrys]

Agreed!

[@snickerslord9004]

Hey Matt, this will be a little long-winded but I absolutely love this series. I'm someone that bounced off this series about 10 years ago after going in thinking it would be a more standard story. I understood very little of what I was reading at the time and wouldn't have been able to tell you the plot after finishing the first two books. Fast forward 10 years to today and I'm in the camp that thinks Book of the New Sun is some of the best sci-fi/fantasy to ever exist, and I've read plenty modern sci-fi/fantasy stories of the years. The main thing about BotNS is that it starts to make more and more sense the deeper you get into the series. And on top of that, things make even more sense on subsequent re-reads. I haven't read Malazan (yet), but from what I understand it's a similar experience, which is way a lot of us were interested in hearing your thoughts about BotNS. In BotNS, there are bits of story found very early on that inform things much, much later. There are also things much, much later that inform things very early on. Once those things clicked into place, my mind would not turn off. I hope you find the time and energy to keep working through the series, because I think you'll find some interesting things as you finish it up. The other thing with BotNS is that Severian is possibly the most unreliable unreliable narrator I've ever read. He glosses over events that are important because they make him look bad and he talks a lot about unimportant events that made him look good. Gene Wolfe also used a lot of archaic or seldom used language because he is essentially playing as the narrator for Severian's story, and the words he chooses are the closest he could find to reach a similar meaning. It's such a weird web of misinformation and questionable "translation" (at times) that re-reading the series feels like a completely different experience. Book of the New Sun is filled so deeply with hints and foreshadowing about what the world is and what's actually happening that there's very little chance anyone would ever pick up on most of it a first time through. Let alone after only Shadow of the Torturer. There's just so much that doesn't make sense until later that Shadow by itself makes very little sense. My apologies for such a long comment in the KZbin comments...I thought you'd be interested to hear my thoughts after I had a similar experience my first time reading it. Really enjoying your content, btw. I love having a place to go where I know I'll get reviews. We lost that in a lot of booktube.

[@br1na332]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this comment! I've really been struggling, and watched some videos, Liene's Library's Should You Read Book of the New Sun is amazing. A lot of comments on YT and GR to anything but outpouring of praise has not been great on the whole. I realise that going in thinking it would be like Viriconium by M John Harrison, beyond the psychedelic tone, severe anxiety, and the audiobook were a bad combo for me. I'm 2/3 through so I'm going to push through, but the plan is to come back to the text in the future. Hearing you bounce off and come back is really what hit for me as someone who attempted to play Dark Souls a few times a year for many years, but kept bouncing off in spite of loving the idea and wanting to love it, before it finally clicked and I have an embarrassing amount of time in FromSoft games now. This genuinely gave me hope. Thank you! ❤

[@snickerslord9004]

@@br1na332 I'm so glad this helped! After my first attempt at reading BotNS, it took me 6 years to get back to it again. But once I did, it very quickly became something I found very special. It's something I try to re-read every couple of years to see what else I can pick up on the I'd missed previously. Here's hoping it can become that for you as well! We may end up with very similar feelings for this considering your experience with FromSoftware games. I tried Demon's Souls when it first launched in 2007 and made it about 1/3 of the way through before I had to move it. It just felt so different from everything else I had every played (and that's how I felt initially with BotNS). I went back a year later and completely fell in love. And now FromSoftware games are about the only the games I will drop everything else for. My favorite game list has now become just a list of my favorite FromSoftware games. I really hope you can find some joy and interest in BotNS! It's genuinely the most rewarding reading experience I've ever had, and continues to be 10+ years later. One of my favorite resources to use while reading was this article series from Fabio Fernandes via Tor.com. I'm pretty sure he did one for every book and it was a nice addition to my reading expreience: www.tor.com/2019/08/22/gene-wolfes-the-shadow-of-the-torturer-part-1/

[@TruthSeeker-333]

Wolfe writes layered puzzles. His stories often have things happening behind the story that Gene wants you to figure out. When Wolfe shifts to minimal narrative detail this is when he is often revealing key plot details without using words; Gene, like Melville and Shakespeare, uses the lacunae, the space between words, to tell a story. I recommend you try his short stories like the Island of Dr Death or TFHOC; New Sun is hard to read which is why it’s so good. Also, Gene writes stories that transcend category, his work sits better next masterpieces like Moby Dick or Shakespeare’s tragedies rather than modern sci fi/fantasy work.

[@jarltrippin]

Bit of a lengthy comment ahead, but I really struggle to talk about these books with any brevity lol. Hopefully it helps you understand why BotNS is so beloved though. Here goes: I read all four books this year and it's become my new favourite work of fantasy. Even the most hardcore fans of it, similarly to Malazan and Prince of Nothing, will say that it's not for everyone. Gene Wolfe was going for something that not even other sci-fi/fantasy authors were going for at the time, so the point about ageing doesn't really apply to this imo. His work has always been somewhat underground for a reason. While I was reading Shadow of the Torturer I was wrapped up in the atmosphere, mystery, prose and chaos of the events. I'm someone who loves the feeling of being actually _lost_ in a fantasy book, which is why I don't enjoy a lot of modern fantasy, at least not as intensely as most readers in the community. Book of the New Sun actually feels magical in its own weird way. *Light spoilers for book 1 ahead:* Severian is an unreliable narrator. The fallibility of memory is famously Gene Wolfe's favourite theme. It probably helps knowing that before going in because it kept me on my toes with the information that was given me and it was almost like a battle of perception and comprehension between me and Severian. Then I reached the appendix and learned that not only is Severian untrustworthy, but the text itself is too because it's canonically a translation for a language that doesn't exist yet. It was at this point my mind was blown because _everything_ I'd just read got flipped on its head. Pretty much every weird word I looked up to give me an idea of what Severian was describing is rendered meaningless because Gene Wolfe (the translator character) didn't even fucking know lmao. I remember thinking "Holy shit, I'm looking at this story through multiple distorted lenses. What the hell is happening?" The strange, archaic prose is absolutely inseparable from the protagonist, world and themes. It all leans on eachother so beautifully that it just could not have been written any other way. I really didn't expect you to like this, but you gave it a higher rating than I thought you would. I will say, since you didn't like this book, you won't like the rest of it either. It's kinda like Lord of the Rings in that it was written as one whole but separated into multiple volumes by the publisher, so there's no variation in Wolfe's approach at all. Though if my comment has deepened your appreciation of it then who knows?

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Yeah that makes sense. I think if I really put the time and effort in I could end up loving it. I might try that at some point and just really take my time with it.

[@jarltrippin]

​@@MattsFantasyBookReviewsIf you do check it out again, I hope you enjoy it more. If not then it's whatever. They're definitely books that remind you reading is a process and that some books _need_ to be read slowly. It took me three or four weeks to finish each one and they're only 300 pages long. Anyway, I appreciate the respect you showed to it in this review.

[@philbrowning2779]

This is a sci-fi work bub. It just reads as a fantasy. And it’s only the first volume. Reread it and keep going. It was written as a 1000+ page novel broken up in 4 volumes. This book is multi-layered and there’s numerous podcasts devoted to this authors work speculating on the deeper meaning within his novels. These books are meant to be reread. It changes form every time you close the covers, perpetually rearranging its DNA.

[@d.cvijaxo7401]

Problem is that you read Wolfe with eyes of genre reader. Wolfe is above genre. He is not SF writer or Fantasy writer. He is master of fantastic literature. Problem is that some readers need fable. If you think fable is important in novel than Wolfe is not for you. You keep saying that Wolfe is old. Ok greek myths are old too and according to that logic wothless. The word classic stands for books that refuse to be old or are so important that being old is not important. You read it with ”wrong” perspective. But it is ok. For me Wolfe says and covers more in his two fanasy books (Knight and Wizard) than Jordan / Sanderson in 14 books with 800 pages each. They are not old I suppose. Malazan is extremely long writing of extremely long tabletop roleplaying session . For me off course. So it only depends HOW you are reading your books. Because of that i thing that ranking books is biggest BS in existance. Sorry because my english and long comment. But yea You are right. If ypu compare Wolfe and Abercombe Wolfe is just not for you. Not a big deal.

[@Majesticon]

You're never gonna convince these people what good writing is. The fact that they have such a HUGE platform is frankly horrifying.

[@bryson2662]

Yes, I can confidently say that not only do I like Book of the New Sun more than most modern fantasy (barring Malazan) but it's better than nearly all the popular stuff at least. I read it about one year ago for the first time (I say this to put aside your claims of nostalgia). A lot of modern fantasy can and should learn a lot from Gene Wolfe. His exploration of themes, and religion, use of subtext, symbolism, complexity in character, allusion, subtlety etc. are all the best the genre and outside the genre has to offer. There is good reason why writers such as Neil Gaiman and Ursula K. Le Guin praise Wolfe. When I read most modern fantasy I find them lacking if I'm comparing it to Wolfe and BotNS in particular. There is nothing he does poorly in terms of writing. Of course you're not going to 'get the plot' by reading book one. It's a single story told in 4 parts and Wolfe will over and over again hit the reader with something that will completely re contextualize what the reader has read up until that point. Ignoring the other (very interesting and complex) character in the book, Severian is one of the most interesting characters in the genre, his journey is second to none (I include names like Karsa Orlong). You talk about prose as if it's a separate part of the story. It is the story. It's literally the medium by which you experience the worldbuilding, the plot and the characters (among other things). Speaking of Worldbuilding, Wolfe is the master of this as well and he does it best in BotNS, tiny details that Severian doesn't draw attention to you tells the reader so many interesting things about the world and knowing about the world and getting these details are also part of the plot. I wrote all this to say, like what you like and dislike what you dislike but this is not a bad book and many of your points were way off the mark.

[@jarltrippin]

I agree. I think prose should be way more important in fantasy and I'm surprised it isn't, considering its origins in epic poetry, Lord Dunsany, Tolkien, etc. There are shockingly very few writers in this genre who recognise prose as a worldbuilding device, and Gene Wolfe's work is, in my opinion, the most effective use of it. I don't understand the world of Book of the New Sun pretty much at all, but holy fuck, I _feel_ it. It's absolutely perfect fantasy because it actually feels otherworldly.

[@RayOutThere]

BOTNS is a dense and difficult read but so rewarding. I had a few false starts with this book before getting through it. I felt how you did about it. It has so much going on beneath the surface.

[@theritwickkumar]

I'd say TBOTNS is a Sci-Fi Series posing as a Fantasy Series and the "fun" bit is trying to figure out what is not being said, what's being hidden. And because the original four books were written as one book it's all there but you probably won't get it or appreciate it until you re-read... It isn't heavy on plot and what is there, the significance of it won't sink in until much later... And it's definitely not for everyone...not even sure it was for Me but I really wanted to experience it so stuck with it... I tried to pay as much attention as I could, but was able to appreciate and get more only after watching explained videos, which I did after each book. And You won't get a clear idea of what is happening until book 4 and even then a lot is left out, left to the imagination...making Book 5 a must read! But if You are not enjoying the process skip the series because Book 2 makes things harder still... Book 3 is a lotta fun and Book 5 is where the real payoff is, where a lot is explained...and this inspite of it not originally being a part of the Series (that itself tells You a lot of what Gene Wolfe was intending to do here) I also had the 'Lexicon Urthus' which I refered to every now and then to get an idea of what was happening, and what the different words meant... so what I am bascially trying to say is that it's okay not getting it, that's by design but there are ways in which You can figure things out after each book and putting in the effeort and doing it is what worked for Me..!

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Yeah, it feels like if you put the time and effort in - this series could be really amazing. Problem is I don't really have the time or effort to put into it!

[@erickoenig9768]

No worries about not liking it on the first go. The Book of the New Sun is a tough read for even experienced readers and it's closer to something like Gravity's Rainbow, or Ulysses, than your standard Science-Fiction/Fantasy story. It is also an unqualified work of genius once you actually start piecing it together and make the connections. It's a book that is meant to, and rewards immensely, re-reading. With that said, I'm somewhat shocked that you would not get a lot out of this given your love of the Suneater series. Suneater borrows so liberally and brazenly from Book of the New Sun (Just looked at the title) - and in some ways just lifts plot points directly from it - that I'm surprised you didn't see those. I know it's often compared to Dune and Name of the Wind, but it's greatest influences are from Wolfe. For that reason alone, I thought you might get more out of this book than you would if you went in totally blind. The chief difference, however, is that Ruochhio isn't layering it in subtext or using language to abstract and mystify the proceedings.

[@Severian1]

This is the best book I have ever read and even I was confused on my first read through. It was so good for me on my reread that it replaced Malazan as my favorite piece of literature ever and I love Malazan to death. Your reaction is completely valid. The problem is it is one book split into four and Gene Wolfe is the kind of writer that hides things in subtext way too much. You need the context of the whole book to get the major hints in book one and the books get even weirder as you go, so I understand people bouncing off of Shadow. So many things went over my head too. But Gene is not an unkind writer. Cool things happen in the book as you go and you have read juicy things even now but as I said, much is revealed through context. There is action though but that is not the book's focus. What Wolfe delivers is atmosphere, symbolism, subtle characterization and world-building, a lot of thematic exploration, some jokes, and the most complex narration I have ever read.

[@severianthefool7233]

Severian is that you? It’s me, Little Severian.

[@Severian1]

@@severianthefool7233 Why did you touch the ring?!!!!

[@severianthefool7233]

@@Severian1 did we just become best friends?!

[@Severian1]

@@severianthefool7233 We just did. Glad to find more people who get these books. You really shouldn't have touched the ring.

[@severianthefool7233]

@@Severian1 I guess I live up to my username.. do you listen to any of the Wolfe podcasts?

[@mattj2118]

Whether it’s contemporary or classic I think you’re the type of reader who just wants a fun ride and there’s nothing wrong with that. You should read Warriors Apprentice by Louis McMaster Bujold, written in 1986.

[@shinigami2502]

Bujold writing is just timeless and beautiful. I read it and it felt like modern writing. I was today years old to know that it was published in 80s

[@shinigami2502]

This book truly embodies the definition of "journey before destination". Imo, thats what makes this book stand the test of time. You don't really read it for the end destination, rather to experience the journey and what you'll find along the way.

[@royston1928]

I've been joking with you on discord about this score Matt, but I think your reaction is totally fine and pretty similar to my first attempt. I think I may have DNFd twice actually. I freely admit that I needed help to love these books. I'm not smart enough to get it all myself. I had to use other resources like the alzebo soup podcast etc. That sounds like work and most people would just not bother. I understand that completely. I think it was the prose and the tone which kept me invested and willing to put in the extra effort for this series. In the end I'm glad I did. There's nothing quite like it and I put it up there with Malazan and The Prince of Nothing now.

[@hellogoodbye3786]

To me I treated the story like the lore of a Dark Souls game. I came across this book series due to it being compared to it, and so I read it with rhis in mind, and I loved it! I'm not sure if that'll help you, but yea, all the best.

[@donkey3235]

This is like lotr, you have to read every book in the series to understand the rest. It’s amazing. The plot is SO there, but so subtle, it’s deeply complex. It slowly gets revealed throughout the story, but you don’t always get it because it’s implicitly stated. Every word written that you think was drawn out, irrelevant, etc is completely important and necessary to the story

[@EODO-si7dq]

I just finished the third book and I still feel the same as you tbh. It's still over my head. But I'm committed to reading the Book and Urth of the New Sun.

[@mikaelmarklund7908]

I think you need to read all 4 book, it was written as one book that got split up. Yes it goes straight over your head, like any one else, don't let that make you feel stupid. It's a first person narration, from a person that clearly has no idea what is going on in him or the world, you are experiencing that that confusion, not just reading. Its like life, we have no idea what is actually going on, we put narration according to what we learned things are. I understand if it feels defeating, but trust me. read all the books. Then if you don't like it fine. For me it is not pros. It's the journey. whish epic ness you only understand in the end. Good luck:)

[@Yungshamgod]

Hi Matt. I’m 23 years old and read the series more than a year ago. I disagree with your musings towards the end of the video as I loved the series

[@EricMcLuen]

A lot of it is a puzzle to figure out. It is in first person so exposition is limited. Wolfe also tells you how the series ends about 50 pages into the first book. Regarding modern writing is better...Wolfe was incredibly ly influential on a lot of authors. I see a lot of him in Mark Lawrence with the lost technology. But fornsome reason, Wolfe like Cook just doesn't vibe with a lot of modern readers. I read these maybe 2 years ago. It did take a bit to get used to this writing and the setting. I will be rereading at some point just because there is so much there I missed. And they are short.

[@BookishChas]

I didn’t enjoy this book either Matt. In fact I read both books in the bind-up back to back, and it was a complete waste of my time. If you didn’t enjoy the first book, don’t bother with the second one lol.

[@DrMetalpin]

It’s one of those that kinda reveals itself and becomes better understood later in the series. I was like that with Malazan. It took me years to get through Gardens of the Moon. It just throws you into the middle of events and characters without any explanations or building. One year I finally got through it and read the other books. It became perhaps my favorite fantasy series of all time and now GOTM makes perfect sense to me. I’ve found that with Gene’s series it got better the more I learned about the world, especially when I read Urth of the New Sun. I had to read it all at least twice, but now I think about it often. There are parts of the New Sun that are similar to other works of literature (Dickens’ Great Expectations for one, but there are others). Some works just aren’t for everybody, but some works also are intended to be read multiple times. Wolfe also has that way of making up words like Neal Stephenson. If a reader isn’t in the mood to deal with things like that, it will never be enjoyed. Once you figure out what the heck stuff is, the story is pretty amazing. I will also say that my respect for Christopher Ruocchio has made me respect and want to learn more about Gene Wolfe, even though I had already read Wolfe long before hearing Christopher talk about it.

[@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962]

I recommended it to my fiancee, but she disliked it and did not finish it. I did not fault her and I do not fault you. Wolfe's works are arduous to understand, and usually require multiple reads to decipher the actual plot. The text is an iceberg. It is a riddle in novel format. Not everyone likes that. Others love it. I love it. On the other hand, I really dislike Rothfuss who, imo, is trying to be Wolfe, but utterly fails. I do not fault others for liking Rothfuss. Different strokes and all that.

[@SleepyBookReader-666]

At it’s core this is a far future sci fi novel, purposefully created to be a fairly baroque journey of discovery , peeling back the onion layers of what is really going on in the world, and what is really going on with the main character/ narrator. For those who enjoy it the charm is in trying to put all the pieces together often over the course of several rereads. It is a literary adventure but not a literal adventure story, in fact it probably aims to turn upside down any adventure story expectations .

[@samm8190]

People say that this is as complex or confusing as Malazan. Do you agree or know what they mean?

[@deathdealer9054]

You are giving 3 star to so much classic books this year LOL

[@samm8190]

Respect. 🫡

[@LiamsLyceum]

Sounds presentist

[@tia_lenay]

I feel like I’ll love this one since lately me & Matt have not been having the same taste

[@randallk6812]

I think about this book alot actually. It's like a puzzle that presents itself as a basic bare bones narrative. But the depth is almost limitless.

[@volsere]

I wonder what people will say about series like malazan in 40 years

[@tommyboyscalemodeling4988]

It's a fantasy masterpiece.

[@dinocollins720]

Another fantastic video! Thank you!

[@theradioactiveboar]

I read the first 2 books, if you didn't like the first one because of the meandering plot the 2nd doesn't really fix that. The whole thing just feels like a dream, its just weird seemingly directionless situations that follow each other. It left me wanting to continue the series even less than the first one did.

[@greyopem7605]

I tried it, didn't make it. Looked it up to see if I was missing something, and well, yeah I was. I can certainly appreciate the craft (based on secondhand accounts unfortunately) and complexity, but imo, if a book (let alone an entire series) requires multiple readings to get anywhere, it could be done better. Similar to the old MMO adage of "it gets good after 100 hours" I'm simply not willing to suffer through something I don't enjoy until then. If "it gets good at the second book" is the author/publisher recommended take, then I have to interpret that as "the first book isn't very good"

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Yeah, I agree. I could see it being amazing if you really put the time and effort to study it. But I'm not in a place at the moment where I want to study my reads.

[@sirdinkus6537]

If I remember correctly , Gene Wolfe wrote this series as sort of a "found document", as in this story was discovered and translated, so the descriptions and stuff are imperfect and the translator (Gene) is trying to use familiar words for unknown concepts. That's why it's sci-fi but many of the terms are old and/or fantasy terms. It's definitely a strange series, and from how I interpreted it, much of the descriptions and stuff are vague and left for the reader to try and visualize or ponder out. Many consider "The Book of the New Sun" to be among the most definitive sci-fi series of all time. I personally liked it, and once I understood the framing, it really did feel like I was reading some strange translation of an alien story.

[@Br1cht]

I have noticed that a visit from the Inquisition will fix such heresy right up, sad to have to inform on such a nice Booktuber but.. alas, I’m willing to sacrifice for the greater good. ;)

[@heretic124]

I read this series two years ago for the first time. I too had some doubts after the first book. But when everything started clicking together towards the end of the series my opinion went up and now it's one of my favorite books/series next to Malazan or First Law. I still liked this book more than you. I rated three of the four books 4/5* and gave 5/5* only to book three. But this series is so much better when considered as a whole. It was actually written as one book too, it's the publisher that forced Gene to split it into four books. The whole thing was already written when book one came out. I was smiling when you were describing what you didn't like about it because it was so... I don't know... silly. But not in a derogatory way, more like in a cute way.

[@joshyaks]

Of my 240 videos on KZbin, my negative review of Shadow of the Torturer has received by far the largest number of nasty and vitriolic comments! (Prior to that, I'd had no idea the book/series was so well regarded!)

[@gregtaylor9806]

Gene Wolfe attracts people with a high degree intellectual vanity

[@aerialruin8568]

It went partially over my head too but I still loved it. The weird psychedelic tone and amazing prose made it for me. Also I read all four books plus Urth of the New Sun back to back, I think that helped immerse me in the world,

[@akashas6012]

Thanks for an honest review. This book is great writing. I love the main character. I loved this book as a young adult. I reread it as an adult and it has come down a bit in rating, it kinda dark, but this still is a good book. I haven't finished the series yet.

[@knotslip8862]

Thanks for being honest. Not sure if I'll read this one or not...Maybe after much more reading.

[@danielstockley5631]

I got through it in 2 days and I will finish the rest but I gotta say, I was a little let down given all the hype. Still, amazingly written and an interesting take on sci fi fantasy. ---SPOILERS BELOW--- One thing I don't like in fantasy is when the fantasy world overlaps or is connected to our real world. When Severian goes to the library to collect the 4 books, the old librarian tells him about a crystal cube that contains more knowledge than the rest of the library combined. I thought "oh no, is this a fantasy world that's actually in the distant future? Is that some computer device?", and the next similar warning was the revolutionary, the machine they used on Thecla. I thought "well maybe not, maybe it's a medieval world that just has some limited advanced technology, including stuff left over from the past". But then Severian and Agia encounter those 3 people in the jungle room of the botanical gardens and I realised this was like 2 anthropologists from probably our 20th century with a native that was being read the bible, then Severian sees one of our planes flying overhead. I kept reading but that disappointed me. But one of the reasons I'll keep reading the rest of the series is because of the interesting characterisation and relationships. I also like that it kept me guessing incorrectly about what would come next. When the girl in the brothel looked like Thecla I thought she was going to fall in love with Severian and agree to take Thecla's place so her love could be happy. Then I thought that his cloak, being darker than black, would play a role. I thought during the duel with avern flowers he would figure out that his opponent couldn't see him in the dark or something. I'm glad I was wrong because these assumptions would have been lazy writing if they came true so there's that at least.

[@claudeyanly5356]

Thank you for this honest and courageous review. I don't think you need to read further in the series but i will say that my favorite books were the 3rd and 4th ( although many will rep the 2nd). I just read this within the last couple years for the first time but tend to like older fantasy better than newer (except Malazan, which is great) so you're not wholly off base

[@andreabknight]

Only 3 predictions right this month so far- and this was one of them! 😆

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Yeah I think I only got 3 right as well!

[@emosongsandreadalongs]

This series has been on my radar for a while because 3 of the 4 books won the Locus award. I'll definitely get around to reading it one of these days. Hopefully I like it more than you did! PS Interesting to hear that the first book is hard(ish) to find solo. I found all 4 books as separate mass market paperbacks for $2 each at my local used bookstore

[@maucho88]

oh yeah a bad review from my favorite booktuber! *grabs popcorn*

[@ShelfCentered]

Great review, always appreciate your honesty. I've only read one short story by Wolfe (though I own so many of his books) and it went right over my head for sure. No clue. I've been pretty trepidatious about reading this book since.

[@Chris_Traylor]

I definitely understand this reaction as it was similar to mine. The only thing I would say is to treat it all as one book because by the time I finished all four parts it became my favorite story under LotR. Totally understand not wanting to waist your time, though. I certainly wrestled with that after finishing Shadow.

[@SeverianofNessus]

Don't let it filter you!

[@parazatico9030]

I read this when it first came out, finished it, just, and for some reason bought the rest of the series, (probably because the covers were by Bruce Pennington, an illustrator I've always admired), but I've never bothered to read them. Severian's relationship with Thecla is compelling, but the rest of it just seems to meander. As you say; 'I think I'm missing something'.

[@yelisieimurai]

If Matt doesn’t like it, I will love it!😂

[@flemingstephen16]

I also need a plot. I’m all about great characters, but I need a plot to keep moving somehow. I’d started The Goblin Emperor recently, and was enjoying it at the beginning, but then quickly started to wonder if it was going anywhere. I watched your review and was like…yeah, I’m gonna pass on this.

[@dougsundseth6904]

I read this series as it was coming out. I thought it was kind of tedious, even though I was very much the right age and temperament for 'edgy' fiction. In retrospect, I find it curious that so many people love (and loved) this thing, though I'm glad they found something that worked for them. I agree with your take about "beautiful prose". I see it as related to a "beautiful hammer" or a "beautiful pair of scissors". They're all just tools intended to perform a job, not an end in themselves. It's the job they do that matters.

[@Avzigoyhbasilsikos]

The prose are great but the story is the best I’ve read

[@akellerhouse83]

I did not know that book was so old! I've never really been interested in reading it. I love some 80's fantasy tho. Feist is my favorite. I've read all 40 of his books. Or whatever number it is.

[@heidi6281]

Matt time to pick up Daughter of the Empire, classic but more modern than the modern stuff!!

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

I will be reading it in 2024!

[@praetorxyn]

Haven't read this but it's one of Ruocchio's favorites, so there must be something there.

[@Alkemisti]

This book is basically a criticism of nihilism, and a reader who is savvy with Patristic and Scholastic theology might get more out of it than others. I like the philosophical aspect of Wolfe's works, but I did DNF _The Shadow of the Torturer_ at my first try. I am much lesser fan of the sequals. I have read books 2 and 3, and they are mostly just aimless wandering, and it is uncertain if many of the events happen just in the main character's head. He might be more or less insane. Difficult to say. I was planning to read the 4th book this year, but it is still waiting.

[@gregtaylor9806]

If you enjoy the book, simply for the material itself, you don’t need to passive aggressively insult the reviewer. If you have gravitated towards the book, because you are attracted to the mystique of being a ‘Gene Wolfe Fan’ then.. you get this comment section.

[@joeystett]

I swear it's weird how similar our taste in fantasy books is. Did not enjoy reading this one, which is sad because people love it.

[@Belemrys]

I read this for the first time this year. The beautiful prose you love it 10x more impressive when you realize he is hiding a meta narrative in the prose. It is a writers book. It is Sci-Fantasy but also literary masterpiece on par with Shakespeare. You have to read it like Shakespeare. He doesnt allow you to just read it for the story. I thought you would like it like Malazan. Same concept just excuted with humility and a deft touch.

[@ecantrell7775]

I completely agree with you on this, Matt. My brother-in-law recommended this to me and said he loved it, but I just did not get it. It was a chore to finish.

[@Wally_stad]

Hated this book. I was so ready to like it and it just fell flat. Felt like a lot of other things I’ve read except it was “hard” to read for no reason. Intellectual masturbation if you ask me. It felt like nothing happened in this one. He leaves his home for another town, and the climax of the book is him getting in a fight with some random person on the way there which had nothing to do with the rest of the plot. I closed this book and had to ask myself how it is spoken about so highly.

[@OrlandoOrtiz570]

Most people don't get the book. People that have read that book 10 times over still might not "get it". The simple version is that it's a story of transitioning from adolescent to an adult in the far distant future in which the sun is dying.

[@douglasdea637]

I'm glad it's not just me. I've been hearing about this series for years, decades with seemingly everyone putting it on their Top 10 list. I read all four books earlier this year and was gravely disappointed. Yes it meanders and much of it makes little sense. It takes place over a year or so of time and yet Severian ages a dozen years. He meets the same people over and over again no matter where he goes. Short stories scattered throughout the books have no connection to the main story. Severian has zero martial training and yet he wins every fight he is in. I truly believe Gene Wolfe wrote this as a parody of science fiction and fantasy and no one has picked up on that fact. I'll give the series 2/5 stars. Shadow is the best of them and the others just go down hill. Skip them.

[@thetruth9783]

youre supposed to not get it the first time

[@quitefranklyjosh]

You REALLY shouldn’t consider things written 40 years ago old…. That’s absurd! If that’s old, then I guess Frankenstein has achieved the status of ancient already? Really? Are you old because you’re in your 40’s? 🧐

[@stormblxssed1465]

It really is hard to understand especially because of the fact severian literally lies to you and its so hard to parse out . For example some people dont even look like how he describes hes just describing them as human to make it easier for you to understand and theres so many things you dont really get because severian doesnt get them but you can pick them up as you go through the story you just have to pay really close attention

[@arymuhammad7549]

There won't be a torture better than sand dan glokta whether you go backwards or forwards in time

[@Avzigoyhbasilsikos]

Usually love all your takes, respect still, some of your qualms are very personal but understandable, don’t read the series if you didn’t enjoy this one

[@marcweber8509]

I don't know if you've played Dark Souls or any FromSoftware game. The kind of enjoyment you get out of these games and their lore is similar to the enjoyment you get out of Gene Wolfe's writing. I'd say don't push yourself through book 2 right now. Let it rest for a while and maybe come back to it later.

[@kmm3458]

I'm at the point of the duel and not interested in the book at all. What was the point of Father Inire's mirrors and him explaining the electromagnetic waves and the speed of light to a little girl? Why was she so frightened? Was the story ever finished? The characters are bland, random people meet with random people, random things happen. Have read some great books from the 80's, this one is not.

[@gregtaylor9806]

It is a ‘great book’ but it’s not good at delivering a coherent story. That’s actually why people like it, because it is a difficult thing to understand and rewards those who meditate and ‘experience’ the book. When I have enjoyed the book, it is when I am willing to read a paragraph and then think about it with the book on my chest for like 20m. It’s nice, intellectually luxurious, but I simply don’t have time for that anymore. I don’t think anyone living ‘right’ does lol.

[@bigcheese467]

2 1/2 ouch

[@ahill6858]

Sounds like Assassin Apprentice. Haha

[@markc6411]

Do you like any older fantasy?

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

Riftwar and black conpany

[@markc6411]

I love the Riftwar books@@MattsFantasyBookReviews

[@duffypratt]

The four books work best as a single, stand-alone novel. So take your standard 800 page book, read the first quarter of it, and tell me how well it holds up on its own. As you’ve already discovered, the book is fantasy in structure, but it is science fiction mostly in its content. Also, Wolfe only conveys info that he believes Sevarian would convey. Thus, there’s even less spoon feeding here than in Erikson. But the world building is astonishing and absolutely first rate. As for the plot, it makes more and more sense as you go deeper through the book. I suspect it will make even more sense upon reread. Severian, however, tells you the overriding arch of the story on the very first page: it’s about how he becomes the Autarch. I’ve had this disagreement with you before. There was not a dearth of fantasy/sci-if books in the 70s and 80s. It seems that way now because the fantasy and sci-if world has such an incredibly short memory and discards or disregards almost everything that is not new. I only read The Book of the New Sun last year, and it was easily the best book I read that year. Often, I agree with your reviews, but when our tastes diverge, they diverge strongly. It tends to be either with older, or more difficult, slower-paced books.

[@danieldelvalle5004]

Mistake, you review the first book of The Book of the New Sun as if it was a singleton. Before you can judge its worth you must read the other three and judge them as a whole because The Shadow of the Torturer is just one piece of the puzzle or one layer of the onion that is this work. Then you must read the fifth book of the series, The Urth of the New Sun for your critique to have validity.

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

I don't buy the idea that you must read an entire series in order to judge it. Sure, it can and should heighten the appreciation, but it should never be a requirement for this or any series.

[@danieldelvalle5004]

@@MattsFantasyBookReviews mistake again. You can't generalize The Book of the New Sun as if it was like any other series. Sure you are right in your assertion when it comes to the Dune series where each book can be judged individually or TLOTR. Wolfe gave a certain structure toThe Book of the New Sun so that The Shadow of the Torturer is one piece of the puzzle. To be even more clear, Wolfe originally wrote TBOTNS as one big book with four parts. It was the publisher who decided for marketing reasons to publish it in four parts. So you miss my point. The Shadow of the Torturer is not a singleton. It's part of a whole. You can't say that about the Dune series. Obviously not all series are the same as you seem to assume.

[@Fia-kz6sf]

Totally agree. Book was a massive letdown . It's open to so many, different interpretations, and it becomes meaningless.

[@jayrocs]

Hah don't blame you. Prose is beautiful and typically I enjoy unreliable narrators but even knowing the background of the book prior to reading I just didn't want to think that hard.

[@kenneth_mata]

This are my thoughts as well, it was extremely underwhelming

[@Henry-jp3mc]

I DNF this book. Really struggled with the style.

[@cavendar24]

Neil Gaiman's quote on the bookcover is something like "this is the best Science Fiction novel of the century". Kind of a weird thing to say if it's a fantasy novel. I struggled with this book because of the language. No offense to Mr Wolfe but his writing sounds pretentious. "Like a dove that suddenly commandeered an arctother . . . " What?? I joked to my wife that it was written by a tryhard. I haven't finished it yet (your fault because I started on Gardens of the Moon) so I can't give it a fair rating yet.

[@antibiker]

Huge agree on prose being towards the bottom of what makes a book great. Ive never understood the fantasy communities obsession with it

[@dmckenna]

Presumably you are also confused by movie fans' "obsession" with cinematography.

[@antibiker]

@@dmckenna if you're dropping movies constantly because the cinematography isn't up to your standards, which I've seen people do with prose, then yes you might have a problem

[@OrlandoOrtiz570]

Probably most fantasy readers didn't fall in love with the genre because the language reads like a textbook.

[@antibiker]

@@OrlandoOrtiz570 I saw a comment on another of Matt's videos that said they dropped the book in the first chapter because "the adjectives didn't flow well". That, to me, is insane and pretentious

[@Paromita_M]

I didn't like or understand much. 🤭

[@NIL0S]

I've read all of the books in the series, over the span of half a year or so. I liked the first book the most, it's characters, descriptions and themes, but after that, it gets kind of meandering, and even becomes frustrating at the very end. There are too many coincidences continuously happening for one, and every single female character is super one note. A lot of the narration seems to get lost in irrelevant detail, while actually in truth holding important meaning between the lines, that to understand you probably have to be a human encyclopedia. So there's constantly these two incongruent levels to the narration, the surface level which is often quite banal and seems to be going nowhere, and the meta level which very easily goes above ones head. The very last book attempts to provide a more straight forward decoding of the more occult meanings, but the author can't help himself and be even more obscurantist as it goes on, and ultimately lurches to an ending. I'm glad I've read it, but I haven't really enjoyed it as others did. A book can be both deep and complex without being as contrieved and complicated.

[@inthetearoom]

so the rating is his intellect not the book

[@jimfarmar5939]

I don’t think, that you think; that this book went over your head. It sounds like an excuse for rage watchers. Keep it straight up dude, “I didn’t like it, I thought it sucked.”

[@MattsFantasyBookReviews]

The problem for me was the when I read it, I didn't like it and thought it was "okayish". But after finishing I found out that there's a whole deeper thing going on, that if I were really studying this book I probably would have enjoyed. But I don't really want to invest that kind of time/energy into it in order to get what the book was trying to do.

[@lughmanwatandust1020]

WOW 2.5 stars ??? Quite generous It was one of the worst books I've ever read