Teen Titans | Responding to Prejudice

Teen. Titan. Tamaranian. What's one more T-word?
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[@ShadyDoorags]

I don't have a problem with the "I'm part robot" line, I just thought it was funny.

[@elizabethescalante8114]

To Shady: For your next King Of The Hill, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do Leanne's Saga, Bobby Goes Nuts and Pretty Pretty Dresses?!?!?! Any one of those Please?!

[@DarkTemplarKain]

i'm still cracking up about that quip with bruce wayne displaying affection.

[@VidelxSpopovich]

I could have sworn you had already covered this episode like years ago or something.

[@sarahhenry3607]

I like to think that scene was donr n said on purpose

[@bigmacsama]

@@VidelxSpopovich no you’re thinking of the quest episode and the one where cyborg fights Atlas the robot villain called “Only Human”.

[@kidtruck9157]

Robin goes from "chill" to "We will make him apologize by beating his head in" real fast. Gotta love it when friends are ride or die.

[@shipper-of-heart8898]

Im so happy he didn't brush it off/ try to blame Starfire for it like 'you know, youre probably jealous because youre not the only alien among us anymore' or say that maybe 'troq' means something different on Val's planet

[@ShadeKirby500]

Yeah thats one of the things I love about this episode. I love that Robin went from really appreciating his compliments, to wanting to throw down with him when he realized that his friend was being called a racial slur all this time.

[@McLoviniam]

Must be a nice feeling 😮‍💨

[@yuishishido8780]

Considering Dick is one of the nicer Robins, you know you fucked up when he’s pissed. Come to think of it all four Robins represent a different aspect of Batman. Dick Grayson: The most compassionate Robin. (Batman’s heart) Jason Todd: The most violent Robin. (Batman’s rage) Tim Drake: The smartest Robin. (Batman’s brains) Damian Wayne: The most calculating Robin (Batman’s skill)

[@lazaroskarmaniolas7410]

Definitely took from his dad. Boy's boutta throw hands with fuckin' Pepsiman here with no hesitation. He really loves her.

[@CJ-vd6po]

When cyborg says “I’m part robot”, reminds of when Raven feels like she won’t fit in with the team. He’s responds “He’s green, half of me is metal, and she’s from space. You fit in just fine.” Cyborg is comic relief and the heart of show.

[@ianfinrir8724]

If anything, Robin is the one that doesn't fit in because he's the only "normal" one.

[@sebastianschoefl]

@@ianfinrir8724robin was raised by batman. He is far from normal.

[@Parker_DNDnerd]

Which episode is this?

[@ashleypierce1631]

@@Parker_DNDnerd Go! Season 5 episode 10

[@ColleenFoley-ln9lr]

Valuer or however you spell his name he wasn't very nice to Starfire! That's one of the reasons why I identify with Starfire when she was mistreated terribly by him! I don't want anyone to do the same to me just because I look like some kind of teenager or 20 year old but I am in my 30's which means that I am 36 but on June 19th I'm going to be 37! I don't want anybody being prejudiced about me I may look like a kid but I'm not! But one of my favorite hobbies was mostly drawing cartoons and painting them on the canvas but most of all I love to make cartoon comic strips! I don't care what anyone says about cartoons that are meant to be for kids I always thought that cartoons are for everybody they're not just funny sometimes they are educational! I even learned from a cartoon once that a happy home is a neat home and if I were independent enough to clean the house like my mom used to do I would do it especially if it means getting my own cat! And the other reason why I identify with Starfire is that she loves cats! And sometimes I wonder if she's a fan of Ladybug and Cat Noir!? Even if ladybug and Cat Noir are not DC superheroes it's fine anyway! And I could picture Starfire making a decision of what she wants to be for Halloween either Ladybug or Cat Noir!?❤

[@alexandru5369]

"Im half robot" Well played writers well played

[@Sleepy_Apocalypse]

💯💯💯

[@Capri_00]

I know because when I saw this episode for the first time and he said yeah, I was seriously not expecting him to say, “I’m part robot…” So yep, well played.

[@darksideofevil13]

I mean he's mostly mechanical so it makes enough sense.

[@jakk2631]

I mean what catches your eye more all his mail robot parts more skin color

[@firepuppies4086]

​@@jakk2631 granted he was also a star high school athlete... Who probably traveled around for events... What happens when folks get salty when you best them?

[@Rannulfus]

Raven: "The best defense is a good violence." Robin: "You mean offense." Raven: "That's what I said."

[@khajiitimanus7432]

Lmao, bloodthirsty Raven is hilarious

[@somechupacabrawithinternet8866]

i agree with her

[@ShadowEX7]

I think the “I’m half robot” line works way better than a “I’m black” line ever would because it could imply that even among other people of the same skin color would likely treat him differently.

[@samreddig8819]

And it comes off as less preachy. The worst way to turn off an audience is to talk down to them.

[@JeroenDoes]

Also in a shows that is also watched by kids this would only work for black people.

[@vindifference]

It's also more timeless. In a few generations after we hopefully abolish petty human racism, newer generations watching the show won't get why him being black is even a concern. It would firmly set the show as being a "new millennial" product. Whereas him being a walking tank is still probably a few centuries off from being something widely considered "normal", so even people that live in the era of no-racism would get it.

[@Shouvak]

Not to mention, anyone could ve feeling that depending on where their location is. On tip if that I'm not sure how much DC brings that kind of thing up. Like how much of a problem is it in the DC universe?

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

It also works way better being said towards a literal alien.

[@pinkraven7043]

“You may not value my life, but I still value YOURS”- that line man. That line is everything. And when Starfire made it clear that for this mission, she is prioritizing her responsibilities as a Teen Titan over her emotions? A harsh life lesson in one sentence. Whether we like it or not, that’s how we have to live sometimes. Emotions are good to acknowledge and manage, but there are usually things that require our attention more. If Starfire just let herself be offended and have her feelings come first before the mission, this episode would not have progressed the way it did. Like you said, it’s a shame that this kind of writing is not in the limelight as often anymore.

[@nathanseper8738]

I think that's a good lesson: hurt feelings are not a good reason to abandon your duties.

[@JcgLounge]

Can that line be said louder for the lunatics in the back? On both sides?

[@InfernosReaper]

Yeah, life requires that sometimes we have to do things we don't want to and put up with people we don't like. That's a lesson a *lot* of people don't see to get these days. I blame the internet, because it makes it very easy to shut out the "undesirables" instead of learning how to deal with them in a mature way.

[@kennethsatria6607]

In any modern show Val would likely get karma'd or get beat up and defeated, in all cases playing into inner rage and having it justified and allowed to be vented. But we all know you dont get that in real life. The things others say or do you can simply be proven wrong and defy without compromising yourself.

[@kennethsatria6607]

​@@JcgLounge In this modern age of ugly heroics and normalized killing and flaunting superpowers I really hope people never forget the concept of a greater good and basic morality

[@TheMasterBlaze]

To be fair, Cyborg did have problems fitting in due to his cybernetics. It fits in lore wise and as a perfect subtle undertone.

[@gripesreality2126]

With starfire being the focus of race based hatred in the episode it made sense for cyborg to relate to her not based on race but being half machine which told kids discrimination doesn't just happen based on someone's race but other things

[@TheMasterBlaze]

@@gripesreality2126 Indeed.

[@vision4860]

@@gripesreality2126 Also as others have already said in other threads here, Starfire herself probably has no concept of Earth nationalities and their history. She literally doesn't see color like that. So if Vic brought up being black, she would've just been confused. Also sometimes people forget that even if someone is for instance black, that doesn't mean they've experienced prejudice toward them in the same way(s), or sometimes, even at all. It depends on environment as well as the person's race/nationality.

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@vision4860 cyborg probably faced some discrimination because of his skin but he is better off than most people on the planet he is a talented football player in school and his dad is a famous scientist so honestly, he probably faced more discrimination from being a robot

[@msk-qp6fn]

@@painvillegaming4119 touche

[@JDWalker495]

This episode was goated I like how the second Robin learned what Val was really calling Star, he was ready to kick his ass even though he was close to him

[@wastelandlegocheem]

Manz went from being superman to andrew tate with superpowers.

[@lifewithlee6298]

Yeah .. don’t mess with his girl 😅

[@slashbash1347]

I love the exchange between Starfire and Cyborg. "Perhaps we should inform him later?" "He'd wanna know now."

[@wastelandlegocheem]

@@slashbash1347 dem friends be based.

[@austinborden5667]

what was even calling her trok truck ????

[@adriannaranjo4397]

I also like the fact even this "hero" wasn't instantly cured of his prejudice in one encounter He tried waving it away that Starfire was "one of the good ones" and they shot that down fast. So he just gets angry and leaves

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

And it wasn't like he was secretly a villain either. He's still a hero, even if he's racist. That some nuance there.

[@spaghetti1641]

I think it is important he leaves. If he stays and they welcome him / remain friends. What does that say to Starfire? Put up with being his punching bag so it is easier for us/ 'while he learns'. Hell no.

[@sabrecellist]

It's in the same vein as the "you're a credit to your people, son" from Justice League

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@TheCapedCrusader39 Goody-Two Shoes heroes (Superman, Captain America, etc.) and mustache-twirling villains (Thanos, Darkseid, etc.) have their place in hero stories as well. It's just also nice to have characters who occupy the in-between parts of the spectrum. And even the goody two shoes can have flaws and mustache twirling villains can have redeeming qualities. A hero's flaws can be something that they have to overcome, or it can be something that helps the characterize them even if it isn't meant for them to overcome.

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@TheCapedCrusader39 It would have to be after a well-deserved journey, one that might be cool to see.

[@TheSlinkyDogg]

I always saw the “I’m part robot” line Cyborg showing he understands her. Cause Starfire is an alien so maybe she doesn’t fully understand that humans have different races. She just think humans are all one ethnicity just like Tamaraneans, but she knows not all humans are half robot. So saying “I’m part robot” was just easier for her to understand.

[@user-pi3hd2bt3f]

I took it as him not being able to fit in anywhere. Most average people cannot relate to having most of their body be made from prostethics. So even amongst people of his own race he would be considered different or "a freak"

[@moneygrabber6720]

@caitlyncarvalho7637you mean trigon?

[@moneygrabber6720]

@caitlyncarvalho7637 oh gotcha, well who doesn’t love a goth girl. Am I right?

[@GamerMage2k-kl4iq]

That makes sense

[@BrakSplash]

Kind of cliche though A black guy doesnt automatically mean "I've been prejudiced." I've met white people who were treated differently because of the color of their skin. But it's never talked about 😅

[@Tactisloth]

Cyborg's "Of course I do, I'm part robot" is honestly genius on a couple levels. One, everyone knows what we expect him to say there, and the subversion of that is humorous, bringing a bit of levity to the episode while not completely drowning out the message of the episode with stupid humor. And two, it allows a real way he would be seen and treated differently by people without going calling out the obvious and without shoving it in kids/peoples faces and being preachy. Three, it allows the message of treating everyone equally despite being from different places/lineages without it being solely about the African American plight so more people can relate to it.

[@Dr.Meme-Man]

Four, Starfire isn’t familiar with racial differences on Earth. In her eyes, humans are all the same. So saying “I’m half-robot” makes it a equally effective to the conversation and her plight as opposed to saying “I’m African American”

[@TayoEXE]

@@Dr.Meme-Man Five, okay, not five, but I completely agree with Three. Prejudice is the core struggle and problem within many -isms. Being considered lower value only for one's differences in whatever is just a sad and unfortunately very human thing. I think more people can relate to this feeling outside of even race. Being unpopular, your upbringing, your interests, your personality, the type of clothes you where, etc. Being unfairly treated in general I suppose while being grouped in with an entire group. It's totally relatable. Cyborg has struggled with his not being fully human and identity in another episode, so honestly, it is within character too in my opinion.

[@Tactisloth]

@@Dr.Meme-Man excellent point, I completely overlooked the fact that Starfire likely wouldn't know that history either

[@DarkAuraLord]

it's great because it works on a surface level while also having VERY strong subtext. The parallel is clear to anyone that knows, but what Cyborg actually says is EQUALLY obvious and makes sense, both in context of the character and in what we've SEEN prior to that. Cyborg is African American representation, but he's also disabled representation, too. Prior to this episode, we actually see that explored a bit in "The Sum of His Parts", a season 1 episode, in which Cyborg briefly encounters a kid with a prosthetic arm that looks up to him. That episode's main theme deals with what it means to be Human, but it also draws a pretty strong comparison with cyborg, real disability, and some of the doubts and insecurity that can plague those individuals. All this to say that, his line to Starfire makes perfect sense for him to say, while also being a cheeky nod to the audience who is also aware of the obvious, but unspoken.

[@Tomeroche]

It's also an easy to understand and obvious way to show why he'd receive discrimination without potentially further damaging the children's watching innocence by needing to be explained racial discrimination if they weren't already aware.

[@GaioSamurai]

Robin's immediate "He *will* apologize," is fantastic. This man goes from hero worship to "I'm gonna beat his ass" in a literal blink of an eye. Sure, it's his crush, but if you honestly think he wouldnt do that for *any* of these friends, you need to rewatch this series. Only time I've seen robin more mad was Slade.

[@bigchungus1848]

The most angry I’ve ever seen Robin was in the episode “Haunted.” Slade pisses him off more than anything else. And yes, Robin would without question run through a brick wall for all of his friends.

[@SkyPerson]

Honestly I wasn’t even thinking about Robin’s crush, I genuinely just thought that’s what he’d do, cause it is

[@symbolguy3609]

When Val was being racist toward Starfire in front of the others, I wonder if it’s because he assumes they share his bigotry, or if he knows they don’t and he’s simply taking advantage of their ignorance. Then again, he would’ve asked them why they have a “Tamaranean pet” in the first place, so I I’m guessing the latter.

[@ThisisKyle]

I recently mentioned this episode to my parents. While discussing the topic that cartoons today or kind of dumbing-down children. They were absolutely flabbergasted that a cartoon for kids would have dealt with a topic like this. I'm starting to realize that my parents were completely unaware of anything I was watching your doing as a kid

[@geocelta1961]

They did something similar in an episode of static shock and basically all of X-Men is about overcoming prejudice, too. It wasn't uncommon even 20 years ago

[@daniboy4153]

@geocelta1961 And many act like kids shows before have never discussed any actual issues

[@cohenvale6342]

Not surprised Parents back then never thought we could find actual important lessons to take with us or teach us anything. Heck, remember the line Raven said "tv rots your brain" in that one control freak episode. They don't bother to ask if maybe some shows are more than just entertainment. Its the same with games. They dont factor in the fact that some shows and games can have stories. And in those stories, characters can develop and feel real. And ive started to think that depending on the medium and style, parents opinions of a story, be it on tv or book, cartoonish or realistic, will determine what a parent will think upon looking at the cover

[@Zacman1123]

​@@cohenvale6342 you got that right on the nose

[@logicplague]

Show them a few episodes of Justice League and Unlimited.

[@myiachanmagicalgirl]

I love that Starfire's diplomatic training shines through here. I don't often like to think of Starfire as a Space Princess, but it's so obvious here she knows how to be around manipulative, condescending jerkwads without letting it destroy her. Especially that dig about "well if you are so great why don't you do it" and the double entendre is about hostile conditions scream to me of the mind games of a Royal Court where you can't just lash out and say how you really feel without causing an "incident".

[@papimala1093]

And having Blackfire as an older sister probably teaches you some patience too😂 with her smart ass mouth

[@SkylarThompson-mu1qs]

It's ironic considering her voice actress's later role voicing another pink royal-

[@craigpeoples9883]

​@@papimala1093Guess her sister was good for something after all

[@marocat4749]

Or using his words against him.

[@VunderGuy]

@@SkylarThompson-mu1qs Starfire isn't pink tho? She's red. Both Starfire and Bubblegum do have weird skin tones tho. XD

[@lukeroberson2115]

The treatment of Val Jor (or however it's spelled) at the end actually makes sense to me. The fact that he immediately drops the "compliments" shows that he never really let go of the prejudice. He is experiencing cognitive dissonance because he believes Tamaranians are lesser, but at the same time owes Starfire greatly. So he rationalizes it as she's "one of the good ones." It's the same as "You're a credit to your people" thing in the Legends episode of Justice League. Val never let go of his prejudices towards Tamaranians in general. Saying Star is "one of the good ones" is basically a backhanded insult saying her race is still, in general, bad. That's the reason the Titans treat Val harshly.

[@oz_jones]

I mean, this is probably the one of the first times he experiences pushback for his views. People don't change overnight. Usually anyway. Like I was bitten by a dog when I was 5 (or 6, its a bit fuzzy, but over 30 years ago). That gave me a phobia of dogs but I just recently (like 2-3 years ago) noticed that I am not afraid of random dogs anymore. And yes, racial (or special(?)) prejudice is wholly different, but I digress.

[@taylorsanada3180]

No wonder I never saw him in Titan's Together in the final episode against the Brotherhood of Evil, due to his troqgy racism.

[@rosiequartzie2230]

My personal theory on why Val wasn't shy about calling Starfire "Troq" around the others was because he thought they knew what it was and AGREED with him, probably thinking they where just keeping her around out of pity, or maybe even as a PET. That's also probably why he was pissed the team took her side immediately, its similar to how some prejudiced people view "Race Traitors"

[@starrsmith3810]

My theory was that it was because her teammates aren’t from the same planet as her. That much is obvious. Thus they don’t know what it means. They only been there once after all.

[@cornchaptermasterofcarmine5902]

But race traitors are hated because they betrayed their own people? I mean is it not right to execute someone who tried to sell your people out to the soviets?

[@annasullivan9768]

Yeah I agree he did not change to be a good man when he said "your one of the good ones" he's basically saying oh your special and they're not racist people can have friends whom they discriminate I know it's weird .

[@ThundagaT2]

Pretty much yeah. When racism is the norm, the people that are dont recognize it as racism. Its just a normal thing to them

[@catbatrat1760]

@@ThundagaT2 Reminds me of how in that one book that got banned from schools (title is slipping my mind, it's the one about a young boy who befriends a slave and tries to help him escape despite having been taught that he would literally go to hell for it), the kid calls his slave friend the N-word. Not because he doesn't love or respect him, but because he hears the adults around him say it all the time, so he literally has no idea that it means anything other than simply "black person".

[@geeks_dungeon]

i love the fact that robin as soon as he finds out one of his friends is called a slur. he like "time to go to war" also starfire saving his life at the end is the true definition of being a hero

[@Zthewise]

My favorite line in this episode is "You may not value my life, but I still value yours". Also, how did it take me till just now to realize Princess Bubblegum and Starfire shared a voice actress.

[@ivanivan744]

Didn't notice until you mentioned it. Mindblowing

[@thegreatairbendinggurulagh2658]

She's also Viridi, the goddess of nature from Kid Icarus: Uprising.

[@R3tr0w1]

Holy crap really

[@Kikyolover9]

She was also the voice of Penny in chalkzone

[@davidtimmer596]

​@@thegreatairbendinggurulagh2658There's also Gurren Lagann where she voiced Nia

[@ljaquos]

Honestly you cut out my favorite part of the episode, which is when Cyborg actually tells Robin what's been going on, and you get that absolutely vitriolic "...What?" Just the boiling hatred in that one word was so phenomenal. I love it. Really shows how much Robin loves his team, and Starfire specifically.

[@OpticalSorcerer]

Looking back, it's fascinating that they chose a HERO to act like this; everyone assumes a hero fights for everyone and has positive traits, but they have their own beliefs that can be interpreted as positive or negative.

[@KyleRayner12]

Based on his behavior later - becoming shocked and angry that the team would defend Starfire against him - I'd guess that Val saw no problem in openly calling her a slur, just as he didn't see an issue with verbally berating her in front of the group, so I wouldn't say that he was intentionally hiding anything from the team.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Yes, he assumed the Titans only kept Starfire around for the obvious benefits of having a Tamaranian in the team, because that is what he does.

[@randytyson]

It's a case of what people want to see over what actuallys there

[@Scalesthelizardwizard]

I wonder how the episode would have gone if they knew about the slur from the start

[@chaos4654]

​@@Scalesthelizardwizard I imahine things would either be far more aggressive between the two groups... Or the Titans might try handling the problem themselves despite him.

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@Scalesthelizardwizard Robin would kick him in the face

[@intotheaether9022]

I recently got my six-year-old daughter hooked on teen Titans and when this episode came up, my wife and I were watching it with her and the scene where she asked cyborg if he has ever dealt with any discrimination and he responds "well yeah, I'm half robot" was such masterful writing that her and I had probably a 20 minute discussion about how modern writers would not have been able to handle that situation with nearly that level of Grace.

[@Don_Ratski]

Pure class that line. Hopefully, if I ever have kids, I can have a moment like this

[@theorangelantern8771]

Too true.

[@sweetdaydreamer8868]

you had that discussion with your SIX YEAR OLD ??

[@intotheaether9022]

@@sweetdaydreamer8868 no, the long discussion was with my wife. My daughter would have heard some of it, but it's not like we got real Racey in the discussion anyway. It was mostly praising the tact of the writers.

[@Dis_Dis]

​@kristopherprime9837 Huh? Why should racism only be reserved for species vs species cases? Why not human vs human? The main villain in Hunchback of Notre Dame is a racist against Romani people and that is both a children's movie and a masterpiece.

[@trevorbacquet9718]

Cyborg saying: "Of course I do, I'm part robot" also makes sense when you remember that Starfire is an alien, and thus, might not have a great understanding of discrimination based off skin color. He went for something that's easier to explain. Also, Val-Yor refusing to change his ways, at best saying she's one of the good ones is a realistic touch. People don't abandon their prejudices in a single day; the process often takes years, if not longer, especially when it's something you take for granted and never had any reason to question.

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

Star fire is not an idiot.

[@LakinMae5]

@@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024she isn’t but her time on earth is very limited at this point, she hasn’t been on for no long than a year or two, so her experiences with humans haven’t really tested to their limits.

[@TheSeleneSeipher]

9:36 I find the line particularly striking since Tamaranean powers are tied to their emotions. Starfire's powers don't falter at all during this episode even after Valior's repeated verbal abuse. Shows a great amount of mental fortitude for Starfire's character.

[@ella-sj8bu]

that’s so interesting, i didn’t know that. would you mind explaining it a little more? so, if a tamaranean was in hysterics would their powers be rendered useless or just uncontrollable?

[@TheSeleneSeipher]

@@ella-sj8bu According to the episode "switched" Starfire says you have to feel a certain feeling to use each of her powers (telling this to Raven as they have been body swapped accidentally by the episode's villain the Puppet King). To fly she has to feel unbridled joy, starbolts require her to feel righteous fury, and her super strength requires boundless confidence. Hysterics I'm not sure since it would technically be her feeling emotional. I suppose it might not be as controlled, but she'd still have them. The only time her powers faltered in the show that I remember was in the episode "stranded" where her being upset left her unable to use any of her powers. But in the episode she very clearly isn't in hysterics just deeply upset in the context. Almost to a point of shutting down emotionally.

[@ella-sj8bu]

@@TheSeleneSeipher thank you so much for explaining, i cant believe i didn't know any of this!! i'll definitely have to rewatch this show

[@TheWeaklyPaper]

I'll be honest, I always hear the "...I'm half robot." line get a lot of flak, but I honestly think it's pretty damn good. He's not trying to shame or educate Star for not knowing, he's sympathizing because he actually knows how that feels. Cyborg *literally* just heard Starfire ask "You know what it feels like to be judged by how you look?" He *knows* she doesn't know. He also knows that means she's legitimately "color-blind". Victor isn't stupid, he could just say "People who don't know me hate and judge me because they think I'm a threat, and don't think I'm human," and that that sentence can apply to *both* reasons people would wrongly fear him. The writers summed up what would today be a preachy, out-of-character, "How could you say that? Let me explain to you everything that has happened to my people so you know EXACTLY how bad you need to feel" down to a small, non-judgemental sentence that says "I understand." He's her friend, not her vice-principal, and I think that matters.

[@catbatrat1760]

Were people actually, genuinely criticizing that line? I thought they were just joking.

[@TheWeaklyPaper]

@@catbatrat1760 I haven't seen anyone in this comment section freaking out about it, but I've seen a few KZbinrs get mad at the line because "It didn't say enough." I'm glad that Shady doesn't feel like that, cause I was getting worried that the episode might get a bad rep because of that.

[@thebeastoftheunknown8457]

@Kristopher Prime Why would they cringe if he said he was black?

[@sebastianlucas704]

@@thebeastoftheunknown8457 The focus of the episode is prejudice. Him saying that he's black, shifts the focus to blacks. Him saying that he's part robot reinforce the point.

[@PumpkinSwag]

I'm disappointed that that lime got any flak. I thought it was a great subversion. But some people online seem to prefer ham fisted writing that is in-your-face.

[@Stargazer_Ley]

I think this episode also shows that sometimes the "hero" isn't a good person. You can do the right thing and still be a horrible person in the end.

[@als3022]

Very true, although honestly I know we like to judge others on that, but do you prefer someone who is wonderful, but causes mass suffering by their actions in attempting to be good. Or the horrible person who does the right thing and saves others?

[@tylerian4648]

​@@als3022 The person who is horrible but does the right thing is probably better. They can be shown what is horrible about themselves and once that happens correcting that horribleness would only be natural for them. Someone who is nice but causes great harm in trying to do good is much harder to change, as any attempt to show the harm they cause will seem to them an attack on what they see as good.

[@wakkaseta8351]

The original concept of Heroes had nothing to do with morality in the first place. That only came to be when soft westerners started rehashing the stories.

[@cypher160manny2]

John maclaine in the die hard films is a jerk but still keeps saving people from terrorists

[@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon]

Not even horrible person, just flawed, and that's specially true about historical figures.

[@ugan2]

I think with the ending, the writers were going for something realistic. Like he's clearly still insulting her and her people (something that was established that she's proud of) even if it's wrapped in a compliment. And his response to being called out was to say "hey you know I didn't mean it..." And yeah that makes it hard for you to acknowledge he made an attempt because it doesn't come off as genuine. It was clear that yes his viewpoints wouldn't change over night but also didn't expect the Titans to just let that go especially as the show made it clear their friendship was genuine

[@balanc-joy9187]

You nailed what others missed about the ending, I thought everyone else was missing it.

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@balanc-joy9187 fair enough personally am bothered cause the Temerrians isn't exactly a loved race they're no different than a sayien

[@arnowisp6244]

@@painvillegaming4119 In short. Folks in the galaxy have plenty of reasons to dislike them..

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@arnowisp6244 yeah tho in this continuity they might different but I don't know it been a while since I watched them

[@lewisaino]

Bet he would react the same with Kyrptonians, Hawkpeople

[@theotherjared9824]

My mom didn't like the shows I grew up with like this one. Not because they were bad, but because they dealt with heavy subject matter that she was not comfortable with. Luckily, my dad loved them, and we often watched them together. He still says Invader Zim is one of his favorites.

[@um2913]

Star fire saying “I still value your life” reminds me of when Anne Frank wrote “in spite of everything I still think people are good at heart”

[@VunderGuy]

Problem: people aren't good at heart. That does not, however, mean they cannot be saved. It only means they need a savior more.

[@nickzilla20]

Starfire has great friends in this episode. While the titans admired Val Yor, Cyborg was concerned for her and wanted to tell Robin, with Robin the moment he was informed about how Val Yor was treating her he immediately loses that respect for him and the others too at the end. It shows their friendship is more important than any hero to admire.

[@tailedgates9]

"You may not value my life, but I still value yours!" We don't deserve Starfire. Or this show. Easily one of my childhood favorites.

[@arnowisp6244]

*I am not Starfire*

[@oldstyle5114]

More like Val doesn't

[@vindifference]

Wait....That rly why they named him "val-your"? Cause if so, that's hilariously dumb

[@Powerclock35]

@@arnowisp6244 We don’t talk about THAT

[@TheDapperDragon]

There's a reason I grew up being attracted to badass redheads.

[@powersurge_beast]

I feel very similar to your feelings on Starfire's true heroic actions with jonathan Joestar from Jojo. When he said "You have a family, someone to expect you to come home" after being so mercilessly attacked it hit.

[@guardian3636]

I'm a Jojo fan and phantom blood is my favorite part but when does Johnathan say that? That does like something he would say but i don't remember him saying that

[@No-yp7kr]

​@@guardian3636 To Speedwagon when he tried stealing from Jonathan

[@guardian3636]

@@No-yp7kr oh yeah!

[@powersurge_beast]

Comments getting steam so Shady ily you should watch Phantom Blood it's got an unapologetically good protag

[@spiralgodking9877]

​@@guardian3636 Then Speedwagon personally stands up for him against his own men in Ogre Street. It was beautiful.

[@philly_sports1558]

I just love how all of Starfire’s teammates stick up for her and are firmly on her side despite them all idolizing Val-Yor in the beginning of the episode. She really is the heart of the team and they’re all protective of her.

[@joshualowe959]

"There are always going to be people who say mean things about who you are or where are you are from. But there are many other people who do not judge others based on looks. Those are the people who's words really matter."

[@KirbyStyle2]

"You may not value my life, but I value yours." The gravity of that line is insane.

[@Ninguin]

That line and the line saying that while some people may hate you per some uncontrollable factor but many more will look past it and their words are what matters is something people could use a real dose of today. Instead of focusing on the small handful that are racist, sexist, etc Surround yourself with people who do like you for you. Don't aim to ruin the other person's life, they likely also bring value to someone's life as well, just don't interact with them. Worry about what the people who care about you have to say.

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

Pathetic really. 💀

[@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024]

@@NinguinMajority of the world is racist and sexist dear. It’s not a small minority.

[@spectrestain4360]

@@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024 Would that include you, then? Or are you "one of the good ones"?

[@jimmydean7219]

The “of course I do, I’m part robot” line was both funny, but honestly genius. Lots of layers to that line. Cyborg could’ve easily gone racial with it, but his response implies that the color of his skin is less impactful to him than the fact that he’s half robot. Which, I mean, is a fair freaking point. Like, which is going to be more impactful in my life, my black hair and green eyes, or the fact that i need the geek squad for medical problems, and I can shoot lasers and see in infrared now?

[@3HorsemenOfMovingPictures]

Eren Yeagah

[@ajakakakak]

I always thought it was a metaphor for racial discrimination. Saying it without actually saying it type thing

[@jimmydean7219]

@@ajakakakak I could see that being the case. I would even say that the cyborg transformation and subsequent feeling of alienation in the first place is a big metaphor for racial discrimination from the start. But I feel like more "modern" writers would've just jumped into heavy handed "of course I do...I'm black" as opposed to "Of course I do...I'm part robot." And, as I said, I like to think that being half robot is FAR more impactful than one's melanin levels, to the point that race really shouldn't even factor in.

[@marocat4749]

I am pretty sure it is about discrimination,m as buff black dude he probably heard a lot of that . But that it has layers makres it so much better

[@ElGreco15]

All I can think of is the horror.... Of needing repairs done at Best Buy

[@TheOddityFair]

How do I say, “I couldn’t agree with you more,” in every language throughout time? These are the lessons we will always need.

[@ShadyDoorags]

The like button.

[@queenperrytheplatypus458]

@Caitlyn Carvalho Wow, this came out of no where. One, Starfire wouldn't know anything about Christianity, and why would the show writers bring religion in a show that clearly doesn't have God existing in it? Most shows unless specifically made for a religious audience would have any kind of religion in it unless it was part of some character's personality, life style, or backstory.

[@queenperrytheplatypus458]

@Caitlyn Carvalho I don't know, I forgot that Raven's dad existed.

[@Ninguin]

@caitlyncarvalho7637 I'm fairly certain the DC Universe has a representation of both the Christianity God and the Greek Gods but I'm not confident on God, I know without a doubt they use a lot of Greek inspiration.

[@shawnleeguku]

To me the whole "You must be one of the good ones" line didn't come across as Val making progress, just continuing to back up his own prejudices while begrudgingly admitting that Starfire helped. Maybe a line from Starfire at the end about how him saying that was "Good, but not good enough" would have worked.

[@theinfeno]

Perhaps, but it would be extremely unrealistic for someone who harbors extremely prejudice views to be changed in an instant even when directly proven wrong. It takes time to rationalize new ideas.

[@marocat4749]

They "just stop talking" would personally be more mature, and make clear they dont tolerate him offending her and he stay professional. They still are heroes, and personally its maybe more realistic.

[@BrakSplash]

I actually considered that he was making progress. He was starting to see that not all Tamaranians are as bad as he thought. Heck, I liked him because he was a flawed hero. He went out of his way to save lives, but something happened to make him resent Starfire's people.

[@trickq5883]

@@BrakSplash Actually he's not the only one. Starfire said that the were other across the galaxy who looked down on her people.

[@BrakSplash]

@@trickq5883 eh, to be fair, aliens look down on the human species all the time. And the humans just take it in stride

[@ryan3960]

"It means 'nothing' " is very similar to how Odysseus uses his words and calls himself "Nobody" when confronting Polyphemus. Very clever writing used for this one.

[@ivanbluecool]

A very great episode where it takes being blatantly racist and shows many sides to it with the problem. The victim and the third party where Starfire lashes at cyborg who didn't know the true meaning making him ignorant but not a bad person I'd say this episode and the number 88 episode in knd took concepts and showed them very well for kids to digest and adults to understand

[@ussxrequin]

Man, I miss KND. It's been a while since I've thought about it.

[@ivanbluecool]

@@ussxrequin been seeing episodes on HBO max and such. They were a lot deeper than I remember and still holds up

[@wafflebroz]

@@ivanbluecool Just did my first ever watch through about a month ago. Very pleased with the experience

[@ivanbluecool]

@@wafflebroz very nice.

[@headshotmaster138]

What was the the number 88 episode about? I haven't seen KND in ages so please forgive me.

[@SerenityM16]

“Remember when saying that WASN’T controversial?” Yes Shady, yes I do, and it baffles me to no end it is now

[@giovanniorellana2200]

Starfire is my favorite character of Teen Titans. She's so nice and adorable!

[@mythosinfinite6736]

Starfire in the animated series: 😊😇💪🤷‍♀️😋🫂👩‍❤️‍👨💌💝👰‍♀️👽 Starfire in almost anything else: 😘🤮💩😈💋💔🤏👈👄👅💃🍆🍷👠

[@CosmosStudios-ho5fg]

While I agree that it may not have been the best idea to shut val-yor's chances of redemption down, you also have to consider that he hated Starfire so much he was literally willing to let her die in a huge explosion. Twice. He didn't just insult her, he actually put her in dangerous situations on multiple occasions.

[@kirbwarriork3371]

That line about her emotions not being as important as the mission hits hard for me because emotions are her THING. There's at least one episode that explains her entire powerset comes from a place of emotion and the episode where she and Raven switch bodies shows that Raven has a hard time having emotions (causing her to fail to use Starfire's powers) while Starfire has a problem not having emotions (causing her to lose control of Raven's powers).

[@TheCommenterDragon]

Honestly, It's because of Val's treatment toward Starfire that he instantly became one of my least favorite side character in this show. Because as the Titans basically told Val he had no right to judge Starfire without getting to know her.

[@stephenking5852]

Isn’t it more about judging her entire species than just her?

[@logicplague]

"he had no right to judge Starfire without getting to know her" Remember when THAT was the message? Good times.

[@logicplague]

@@stephenking5852 Either/or, they are equally important. No individual member of a species is identical to another, therefore knowing the species tells you nothing of the individual.

[@stephenking5852]

@@logicplague true, entire races or species are not hive minds that lack individual personalities, but this guy managed to insult Starfire’s people just by complimenting her, calling her, “one of the good ones.”

[@riddlerthediddler4392]

@@stephenking5852 Given blackfire and other Tamaranians we've seen he's probably had a lot of bad experiences with them and just assumed they were all that way over time

[@logicplague]

"You don't get rid of ideas by out casting them, they just go to a different place." Yes, and in that new place they often grow and thrive. When he arrived, he hated one race, when he left he hated two.

[@magicthunder24]

An absolute tragedy

[@als3022]

You can always add new enemies.

[@hitskwaad]

Oh no

[@logicplague]

@@hitskwaad I know!

[@crfstewarje]

@Logic Plague, my argument, is that Val didn't even start seeing the good in Starfire. He only care that she saved his life, rather than actually seeing good in Starfire, because of who she is. This is clearly hinted at, when he nearly still calls her a Troq and then gets offended when Starfire politely says that she is not better than her own kind. The Titans saw right through him, which is why they told him to leave. The Titans aren't at fault for him playing the victim and saying, "You're just like the Troqs"

[@robertbarrows6687]

There was a bit of ambiguity on Val's attack on those robots after his racism against Starfire came out too. Were they the truly the threat he said they were, or was he basing it off on prejudice too. I mean we could have had some questions by Robin: "What did these guys even do to make wiping them all out the right thing to do Val?"

[@ShadyDoorags]

In real life, yes, these are the questions that should be asked. But in context of the show, Val-Yor did show footage of their race extinguishing others and the Titans saw that Val himself was at least trying to keep innocent civilians safe.

[@robertbarrows6687]

@@ShadyDoorags Though I wonder if that was edited, or we were dealing with the Geth situation here where they just were defending themselves after being attacked unprovoked.

[@VonDelacroix]

@@robertbarrows6687 I like the Geth too, but they were not the defenders in the beginning, they killed anyone that ventured into their space and got caught.

[@arnowisp6244]

@@VonDelacroix Shoot on sight Basically

[@tamyasaunders7689]

​@@ShadyDooragsI was wondering that too since the locrix being a threat was based off the words of a racist but it is kind of interesting to have a good guy do something immoral like being racist

[@lovefromwonderland]

To this day, Troq remains one of my favorite cartoon episodes. It handles racism so gracefully and teaches kids not to respond with violence, but with kindness and respect. It’s a sad episode (cause Starfire is my favorite character and seeing her down makes me sad) but I appreciate it a lot. Teen Titans is a great show, nuff said.

[@samwhy4974]

Honestly the line "of course I do, im part robot" is so brilliant. Because of how it makes adult think and kids not. Kids will hear and see that then agree "yeah people would make fun of me if I were part robot. Even though it would be kinda cool" which gets the entire point of prejudice across without ever saying the real world equivalent. When that kid grows up I think they'll naturally have a better heart for the world going forward. Because they learned a little lesson from the titans. Goddammit this show was amazing

[@warwulf1889]

7:51 But it was clever. Instead of going for the easy and insensitive out, they addressed a different aspect of Cyborg. Being essentially disabled, he his nothing without a regular recharge of power or else he'll shutdown.

[@ericjohnson6120]

One reason for the Titans not interfering is that they don't know who's in the right and who's in the wrong. It's only after Val-Yor steers the Locrix away from Jump City do they know.

[@ShadeKirby500]

Yeah I was saying this to my screen, I mean they kinda picked a side and just cheered it on, but Val-Yor could have come here to destroy the planet or something. These are space travellers, it can be kinda difficult to tell, so they didn't interfere.

[@battlesheep2552]

Yeah, you don't want to just assume the weird tentacle aliens are the bad guys, that would be racist

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Hearing Starfire tell him to go to jail felt so cathartic. Fantastic edit

[@Capri_00]

I think that maybe the writers did want to bring him back at some point but the series went a different way and with too many story arcs. Then the series got the axe and we were stuck with TTG which would never divert those themes into the episodes.

[@MikeTyson-Easy]

⁠TTG is overrated but ppl act like its the plague

[@theecourtofmadness]

My favorite part is when Cyborg UNKNOWINGLY uses the slur Starfire has a much bigger reaction. It hurts coming from Val, but he's a virtual stranger and she cares much less about his opinion. But. When it comes from the mouth of someone she loves, she can't keep quiet anymore. She realizes she failed to properly communicate the meaning of the word and isn't angry at him, but she can't stand to hear him call her that.

[@JohnJacksonJohnson]

@12:49, it's like "has this guy never heard of the words 'backhanded compliment'? It's basically insulting someone while masking it as being nice." Ex: "that was nice... for a girl."

[@helixsol7171]

I never noticed how much he looked like Captain Atom until now

[@JDWalker495]

Thank you, I thought it was a reference Especially since I remember Atom discriminated against non powers heroes

[@stephenking5852]

@@JDWalker495 that’s only Captain Atom from Batman: The Brave and the Bold.

[@noahsmith4877]

@@stephenking5852 he was kind of a douche in that episode

[@chasformer3091]

This episode handled prejudice so much better than most modern superhero comics and modern cartoons do today (cough) Louder and Prouder(cough).

[@arnowisp6244]

Sad thing about That Pround family show is that it's exactly ehat the writer wanted. The Original Writer. The Overton window back then kept them in check. But now they can make the TRUE Proud family show they wanted...

[@ShalemAhava]

Don't get me started on how bad that episode was!

[@neonfroot]

I disagree.

[@firenze6478]

Most modern writers act like prejudice can only happen to certain groups

[@Pyramanager]

@@firenze6478 exactly, they ignore most of history and only focus on one particular part of history. And they dont even get that small part correct. I hate how they say only blacks have ever been enslaved, whites have never sufferred, and that whites went to africa and just abducted africans. All of which are false

[@brandonscott7164]

The slow pan after he says “ I’m half robot “ gave me reason to live 😂😂😂😂😂love you shady

[@optimusprime320-h9c]

I actually prefer the way the episode ends; because I think one of the most important messages is that you are not responsible for bettering your elders (I.e parents, grandparents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, ect.) and that you do not have to stick around and take even mild abuse to change someone. That in essence you do have the power and choice to walk away and real friends and family will support you in that decision. If Val had stuck around it would have muddy the message and made it seem like to younger viewers that you have to put up with it and help them change rather than take your health into account. Because notice they gave him the boot after the mission was over, they did their moral duty, his journey is not their moral duty to create.

[@fellowpassenger_54-67]

Nowadays the “I can fix them” mentality is easy to find even though it’s not someone’s responsibility to do all the work in fixing someone else’s problems Others can only help if the person that needs help is helping themselves first and is willing to accept help, I’m glad we’ve got good shows with these types of good messages

[@amfstudios8695]

I've heard the interpretation that Cyborg's "I'm half robot" had an additional meaning you don't pick up at first. The idea that he didn't want Star to know just how terrible humans can truly be.

[@khajiitimanus7432]

Possible. Could be that and the idea that Starfire just sees humans as humans, so racial profiling would be alien (ba dum tss) to her. Thus it's more meaningful as a universal and visually apparent thing - being half machine would change how people treat you, if only by necessity due to different requirements to function. In other words, it's _easier_ to explain that he understands by mentioning that he's part robot. The other path requires more to say, and for that moment, all he needed to convey was that he understood.

[@SkylarThompson-mu1qs]

​@@khajiitimanus7432And the robot part could be voyaging into disability discrimination but yea Cy was racially discriminated.

[@tfordham13]

I think Robin and raven hero worshiping is a thing they can do but it really depends like Robin with batman or Raven with some kind of magic user

[@Hyper_Drud]

I like to think Raven Hero worships Robin to an extent or at the very least admires him. She was wearing one of Robin’s suits at the end of that episode where Robin goes to train with a martial arts master.

[@lazaroskarmaniolas7410]

Probably Zatanna. Or Constantine.

[@AkjobAlgvak]

7:39 To be fair, if you saw Cyborg on the street, would his race really be the first thing you notice?

[@ZayZaz]

Yes and no

[@stansman5461]

Definitely. And the discrimination he feels for being a robot is something he'll get from any person, not just a small group of racists

[@ammash3000]

Well he wasn’t always half robot.

[@taylorsanada3180]

His robotics take up most of his appearance, so his race doesn't matter at that point no more. Plus, Starfire won't know what he means in saying "black", due to not living on earth society since birth and her team have different skin colors on top of that, which she won't further understand.

[@harmonixerraze]

I got the impression that he didn't think Starfire was "One of the good ones" and was saying he was wrong about her genuinely, but rather was forced to due to realizing the group he wanted to impress were on her side and would be disgusted with him if he didn't.

[@kenthuang436]

And Starfire did say the perfect response to such a comment. Maybe it was supposed to be a compliment but Starfire saving the guy from certain death doesn’t make her any better than other Tamaranians. Blackfire is the rare exception since she only thinks of herself but the other Taramaranians we’ve seen are noble and willing to do whatever it takes to do the right thing. Val Or was too closed minded to see that.

[@marocat4749]

I dont know, i think its a really good case of "but starfire is one of the good one" would be yeah she impressed him, but he learned the wrong lesson. Its not that she is different than her pwople, its to not be rassist.

[@chimichangalesbo4345]

He didn’t make any progress, he was just under pressure to not look like as much as a douche bag. He still maintained his prejudice. “One of the good ones” is basically just calling Starfire an anomaly in a still useless race.

[@user-ks8kn4hx8q]

No, the Titans were right to tell Val-Yor to go leave. They were 100 percent right to treat him that way for being racist to Starfire

[@facundopollacino7956]

Le falto el respeto a nuestra chica.

[@tahraethestoryteller6079]

I think they learned their lesson from the third episode and try not to intervene in galactic affairs At least this when A Whoever’s fighting them can handle themselves and when the planet and their inhabitants aren’t in direct danger Had they been causing damage to Jump or if someone else was in danger then they would have intervened

[@arthurboriathetrueking999]

Yeah

[@joecrazy9896]

6:48 Wow Cyborg, even used the hard "i".

[@TheLuconic]

This series is why I adore the original teen titans. Such great writing and such good character development. And consistent relationships.

[@TheSqoad]

The ending seems to hit a strong message. And it's all about drawing an immovable line. You CAN work with someone whose values you do not share to accomplish a mutual goal. You CANNOT trade the safety and comfort of your family for the benefit a hostile stranger. It's a very good lesson.

[@ultranerd333]

I feel that the "The mission is more impressive than my feelings line" coming from Star is especially strong because her powers are linked to her emotions, so she is likely willingly handicapping herself for the sake of the mission

[@ricomannen2502]

This episode was the reason to make me relfect on our society today that we should strive on being better people and not stooping low just for a sence of small justice. Instead we all should be more like star fire to inspire others

[@als3022]

When it comes to genetic traits I agree. But, when it comes to combating ideologies that are literally the opposite of each other that becomes impossible.

[@H250V]

Something minor, but I always found it odd when people point out Cyborg's wording of him being "half-robot" because I never thought that - at least in the context of the show - that Victor was always judged by his skin, but when it came to his equipment, it always was a source of contempt at times - from the time he met the Fixer when his power supply was running low, to even his duel with Atlas, and even the fights with Brother Blood, a man who forsaked his humanity in order to be able to gain power over everyone he tried to brainwash. Like it makes sense that Cyborg's humanity would be what drives him over some random guy calling him a slur, so I kind of never thought it was weird that he would mention that to Star when it came to talking about "being judged by his looks" or race/species. The show probably did it to not be too on the nose, but I also think there was at least precedent with Cyborg's self-consciousness being half-machine. Also, yeah: I think the Starfire episodes were usually my faves simply because it always tied back towards loyalty, family, and what it means to be close to others - especially when certain situations seem like they'd be the drop that breaks the camel's back.

[@ShadyDoorags]

In context of Victor Stone, it makes sense that he was never judged by his skin color. While I don't know the original story, the updated version of Victor is that he was a star-athlete on his way to college when he got into an accident. His life was almost perfect, save his workaholic father. No mention of discrimination there. I'm just making a tongue-and-cheek joke since asking black people if they've been discriminated against is very common. A lot of people have brought up how this episode dodged a bullet using Cyborg's robotic past.

[@christianjohnson5379]

​@@ShadyDoorags glad you made mention of this. When talking about Cyborg in another conversation with someone (it was about Cyborg in Zack Snyder's Justice League), they insisted that Cyborg MUST have struggled through life because he was black, and that his appearance in ZSJL was meant to address that issue....like how on EARTH is that the case? People have this assumption that because someone is black or non-white in any way, that they are by default struggling and are experiencing racial prejudice. It's just presumptuous. I mean I can't pretend to know what any people of any other race go through, but I'm not going to ASSUME that they are struggling or are victims of prejudice either. And I don't think every appearance of a non-white character in every form of media is meant to be a political statement of representation or racial struggles. No matter what race you are, your experiences are going to be different. There are many black Americans who struggle, but also many who have had it easy, same thing with whites, Asians, and Hispanics.

[@Zacman1123]

The racism plot line of this episode, especially Cyborg's line later, flew over my head as a kid.

[@ShadeKirby500]

Yeah like I actually think the actual 'racism' aspect of the episode, while it is no doubt there for people to chew on, I think it was done with the appropriate gravitas and isn't like, overblown or exaggerated.

[@kelechiojobor933]

@@ShadeKirby500no, cyborg's line was about dread and discrimination , as far he was a concerned, he was treated as a freak making him loose his football career , school ,friends and colleagues

[@vindifference]

Probably because at its pure core, it's not just speaking about racism. It is about being different and the discrimination that that brings. Wouldn't matter if it was because he was black, part robot, overweight, dressed effeminately, or was 3 feet tall. That's why these kinds of stories cut deeply for various people. While stories targeting specific contemporary issues are nice only at specific periods for specific groups.

[@zcubeDbz]

8:26 I can't help but remember the fact that her powers are controlled by her emotions. Meaning while all this is going on, she's having to hold onto something that is joyful in order to keep her powers running in top form. Possibly the idea of never seeing that guy again after their mission is done

[@erubin100]

I hear what you're saying about the ending, but here's the thing...I don't think he WAS trying to "make an effort," it seemed more like he was trying to save face in front of the other titans. His comments imply he's learned nothing and is drawing the conclusion that "there are some good ones out of all the bad" rather than "these people are no different than us where it counts." In that context, the titans reacted appropriately. How would you react if you went on a long mission only to find out the jerk in charge has been insulting your friend this entire time? Also, this guy's mind was NEVER going to change from just one experience alone. People don't change their worldviews that quickly, and racism dies hard.

[@marocat4749]

I think its even better when he respects her more, but didnt got how his prejudivce to all of he rpeople was wrong. Which is good nuance. But yeah, if he really did effort, he would have asked her what to call her.

[@samgerard3891]

"Course I do, I'm part robot" I laughed too hard at Shady's reaction.

[@XYGamingRemedyG]

Bro. I hard laughed at the Starfire "YOU get racism?!" 😭🤣😂😭😭 WOW that was crazy they did that but also it's double entendre cause he's a cyborg but also, I mean, they know it's a race bit. It makes me wanna go back and watch more of this. Such a good show!!

[@davisthegamelord]

Fun Fact: vals VA is the same guy who voices Bill from king of the hill.

[@blubullie4850]

Now I am wondering how the episode would change with Bill's voice. It would make Val seem more ignorant than heroic, making the insult seem worse. It would be as if he learned from rumors of the Tamaraneans, not from actual interactions with one. Would that make people more upset with him then? Would that make the episode better or worse?

[@claymathewselevator8121]

Stephen Root is a great actor

[@davisthegamelord]

@@claymathewselevator8121 dudes got alot of range

[@someonebored0100]

Val treated Starfire like shit for something she can’t control. The Titans shunned him for something he CHOOSES to be

[@jessicawilliams3849]

I like the ending. Valyor knew he was being backhanded - he’s not an idiot. He just had too much pride to admit he was completely wrong and when he’s called out, he punks out and chooses his ego. It’s not the job of victims to save racists. Valyor got all the help and resources that episode to see he was wrong and openly chose to go against the facts

[@SrMadru]

Yeah sure but theyre not anyone, theyre the teen titans, starfire didnt need to save valyor but she did cause shes a hero, even if it was going to be fruitless they should have done something besides shoo him away

[@dirtydirtyshisno7284]

@@SrMadru Also gotta consider that the episode can only go on for so long and he’s not a reoccurring character so they couldn’t give him a reason to stay

[@NakedOwl501]

9:44 is the hardest I laughed at one of your videos. Was NOT expecting that edit 😂

[@Agent-8]

Nope nope NOPE stop talking go to jail

[@sarahhenry3607]

I also gotta say I really love how much you felt from Starfire when she expressed how she cares about the value of life.

[@C0ldIron]

I agree it would be nice to have a better understanding of why he has his prejudice. From the one episode we see her home one would assume Tamaranians are basically space barbadians which could lead to a reputation not to mention Darkfire’s actions making them look both primitive and savage. On the other hand in the comics they are super piecful before being invaded and more technically advanced. I feel this is just a case writers needing space racism so they don’t have to address things directly. It wouldn’t work with Raven because as you said she literally is one of the good ones and the rest of them would be too close to real.

[@als3022]

That was what I was thinking. Isn't her species warlike? Aren't there plenty of species that despise them because they attacked them? You can't fix someone (If they are the ones who need fixing) unless you know that big question WHY!!

[@randomrhino7500]

To be fair StarFire is the od one out out of her species correct me if I’m wrong I remember her speech or warriors and possibly Concord so other people in the past

[@MovieMadness23]

One other thing I love about the scene with Cyborg is when he says “you know you can’t punch him out because it’ll prove that everything he’s saying is true” I felt that line had a lot of weight to it and it was true on a number of levels, this was such a great episode

[@inkdemon6065]

The 'part robot' line shows part of the reason I love this Teen Titans. Whenever Cyborg had an episode about his insecurities it was about being a cyborg. So many shows growing up would try to bring up race and either make one episode and entirely ignore the lesson after that or make it the character's whole personality. Like we are in the middle of a war but we're gonna have a filler episode where, nothing gets resolved and makes the whole thing pointless in the end. Cyborg was always happy with himself as a human, he loved his life and was confident in his human half. Teen Titans never took the low-hanging fruit, and their lessons were always well thought out and it felt like they MEANT it every time.

[@jackpearce367]

You’ll be the Teen Titans guy before you know it

[@adamk-paxlogan7330Sucks]

I don't know any one else that reviews teen titans,so I'm fine with this XD

[@timelink3315]

I can understand and kind of agree how the Titans treated Val in the end, simply due to the fact that they are teenagers and their brains aren't fully ready to deal with such a nuanced situation. Now if the Justice League ended it on that note, it would be weird and pretty unfitting since they are adults that have a clearer understanding of how people's hearts and views can change over time.

[@Wandermidget]

I think it's pretty fine too that the episode ended with the Titans acting the way they did because it also goes into the aesop that Starfire more or less said word for word as the final sentence. Some people are just going to stay bigoted no matter what you show them or prove otherwise, and you shouldn't "waste" your time around those people. Be with the people who do appreciate you. Val was a one-off character so I felt the writing team felt they could afford a character like him sticking with his mindset.

[@magicthunder24]

​@@Wandermidget I get that but I also think that message would have been more poignant if, after trying to reason that he should try to hold judgemenr off from the rest of her race until he gets to know them and their values just like he did Starfire, he fought back against it with no hesitation, showing he didn't learn to let go of his bigotry but just allowed her to bypass it after she proved at every turn that it was just plain wrong. Then when he'd fly off and she'd say that it would show that despite the best efforts of others, some people would indeed hold strong to those feelings regardless.

[@hephsforge9236]

I think simply having another character present in the story, say he already had a sidekick who admired him and demonstrated similar attitudes towards Star who was the one to send him off, showing that while he may not be quick to change, others will, would have better worked to wrapping up the story as you wouldn’t need to present him as trying to change to begin with. Ik that is kinda cliché when it comes to episodes of shows like this, but the cliché is there for the sake of making the story’s landing much cleaner and message stronger. They even could have had this third-perspective character show up later in the series in a minor way(say, as a member of Titans East, or in the final season) adding more to how improving yourself can lead to you find new allies where you at one time wouldn’t expect it, making you both stronger together, and stronger on your own.

[@march.286]

I think it also gives more deepness to the episode the fact it didn’t end in a happy ending where intergalactic racism was defeated, and it’s real, you can go as far as saving someone’s life and not changing them, but you do it because you are greater and know what is right

[@hiddenthunder1395]

​@@march.286the thing is, Val was somewhat changed. Episode ends with him giving a warm smile to show that he appreciates his short time with Teen Titans.

[@VideoEssayWatcher5484]

This video made me understand the value and power of characters like Superman. I wasn’t really passionate about them, they came off as boring but they’re actually beautiful.

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

11:53 I agree. A real hero wants to save as many people as possible, even if they're a complete asshole. This episode rightfully shows that you can have an otherwise very heroic and selfless person who carries some very bigoted and hateful views. He's not painted as a straight villain, that makes it realistic and relatable.

[@99thJediWarrior]

One of the highlights aside from how well this episode was handled was how Robin was about make Val-Yor apologize to Starfire. Before Cyborg and Starfire even told him anything, Robin did seem to admire him. But the minute he found out what Val-Yor said about Starfire, he was about to throw hands with Val-Yor for him to apologize. He does not tolerate disrespect directed at his teammates, whether they are heroes or not. Not only that but when Robin did find out, that "What?" in his voice was actually kind of scary to hear. The tone in his voice, how quick it was. You could not tell me that his inner Batman didn't shoot to the surface when he listened to Cyborg.

[@ScintillatingSusie]

This was always my favorite episode growing up, and I am so glad you covered it. Out of all the reviews, they only mentioned how Starfire never lashed back against Val for his harsh treatment of her but never the fact that she pushes her feelings down to do what's right. Helping out in the battlefield and saving Val were two of the biggest points in the episode and it feels people miss the bigger message of how just because someone is awful and prejudice doesn't mean they deserve harsh punishment. And now that you pointed it out, yeah, I am a bit frustrated by the ending as well since it missed another lesson they could show. No matter how awful someone is, if they can show they have the ability to change then give them the chance. I will admit, there are some people who are in fact incapable of change. (Mainly people with Sociopathy/Psychopathy which are both mental disorders that keeps people from empathizing, a lot more complicated than that but it shows my point) But that just means that if we find someone who not only is willing but capable of change, we should just be more willing to let them

[@amandamimic2725]

Actually, even psychopath can improve. I don't know if they can do it under their own power, but at least once one has improved. Dr. David Wood was pretty awful and being an actual literal diagnosed psychopath was probably why. Later in life ha has been able to prioritize other people and even have intermittent bouts of empathy. It think he and I would both attribute it to becoming christian and not necessarily his own ability, but point is you never know for sure that anyone is beyond improvement! This isn't meant to be a dig at you, but I did want to offer this counter example I have heard

[@ScintillatingSusie]

@@amandamimic2725 Huh, well thank you for informing me. That may just be Psychopaths. But I also want to thank you because this just made my point about the message stronger. If people can change, give them the chance and help them change.

[@KairuHakubi]

it's sad nobody has learned these obvious lessons from history. a hated group redeems itself not through anger and revolt, but through patience and kindness. and when people start to change their minds, you have to FOSTER that. not continue ostracizing them for daring to have a negative opinion.

[@kennethsatria6607]

Yes but at the same time a change of mind is never easy, prejudices are not just things some people can let go of after being chastised and Val Yor is stil pretty much a stranger they dont owe him that much.

[@ScintillatingSusie]

@@kennethsatria6607 I never said it was easy, and that it doesn't take time. But people won't take that time if you don't give it to them.

[@blubullie4850]

Side Note: Val-Yor is the only one of his species we have ever seen, ever. This episode is also the only time we get to see this character, which makes me wonder if we would ever find out more about this character.

[@als3022]

Nope, why I am not really a fan. We don't learn anything else about him. And he is more one note. We don't know why he is speciest. Are his species supremacist? Have they gone to war with the Tameranians? They are a warlike species. There are a variety of reasons why people get a negative view of others. It can be how they are raised, or because many in that group did terrible things to them. It's not an excuse, but without knowing it he changes from an interesting character to "Bigot character #3.

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

@@als3022 yes for example the palastins ethnic hatred of Israelis is very different from for example a white supermist

[@SnazzyjazzBro]

I don't think so. Cause much like that rock monster alien who treated like a dog I think he was meant to be a one time character.

[@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942]

Or why there are alien races looked down at Tameranians, is because they lose a war? Their costumes? Their looks? I remember the weading of Starfire, how this other ugly alien wanted to marry her and was happy for that...Blackfire also told us how she has travel around space and never mention racist situations (thought she probably didn't want to share them, which I get...or because she was already looked down not because be Tameranian, but by be a criminal... ...now I kind feel we seriously needed let Starfire had her focused season, like how the other Titans had their own...picture the next season happening in space and see the planets Blackfire attacked or stole from, or how other races react to them, some may be mean like this guy, others could be mean too but later learn what they are doing is wrong and see the planets that are allies of Starfire's people and perhaps background of Starfire and her sister...maybe introduce her brother? The comic based on this show touched that subject (some issues were meh, still disapointed with Ravager's introduction there, yet that was the only story I was really into, yet even that was left in a cliff hanger...)

[@Oznerock]

@@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942 Tamarian culture is generally a lot closer to blackfire than to starfire... They're a warrior culture so it's very likely a lot of the galaxy hates them for a variety of war-related reasons.

[@spiderrocket8367]

13:23 I have to disagree if he gave starfire a somewhat meaningful apology or begrudgingly acknowledged her skills and abilities without the titans presence ( because lets be honest he's only saying this because he's quickly picked up the titans know that he has been being discriminatory towards starfire) then yeah giving him some credit would be warranted but it's simply because he just wants to still look like a hero to the titans. And it's clear that the titans have kicked him off that pedestal so he just lumps them together with her. Not every bigot wants to change

[@dewdrop8180]

16:46. I really appreciate that. I feel like Starfire is so underappreciated, as a character and with her strength. She's inspiring and (to me) the most human of the Titans, even though she's an alien from another planet.

[@phor8567]

I understand your point about the Titans not recognizing Val Yor’s attempt to change his thoughts about Tamaranians but at the same time I think the point of the episode was that it is not Starfire’s responsibility to change Val Yor’s mind. Starfire saved Val Yor’s life. If even after that he can’t understand the error of his ways then there is only so much the Titans can do to try and change his preconceived notions, that is something he will have to work out on his own. But I think it was more important for the Titans to preserve Starfire’s integrity as a member of the team by unambiguously telling Val Yor they did not want him to be a part of their lives anymore because yes Starfire is very noble in this episode putting the mission above her feelings but at the same time her feelings are still important and still matter so, at least to me, it was nice to see the episode have the Titans prioritize protecting her and her feelings rather than potentially trying to reason with a racist.

[@march.286]

Troq is my favorite Teen Titans episode, period. One of the things I love is how caring Cyborg was, when he told her “let’s go tell Robin” like it’s the natural path and then reaffirmed this to StarFire when she is not sure I love it, because sometimes you are afraid to talk about that person who is loved for everyone, you commented about how he didn’t expected Star telling her team, but it happens not daring to have that kind of attention, if it was not for Cyborg she would have been in the shadows, which gives more value to kids to dare to talk to someone if you are suffering discrimination. And one thing I will disagree with you is the ending, because ok, StarFire showed him how amazing she is to the point he has to apologize to her and admit his mistake, but he already put her into two near death situation and proposed her to “finish” herself, so yeah, he can go to Azarath

[@LadyLeomon]

I remember this episode well, Teen Titans and Static Shock are the only shows I can recall that had an episode directly addressing racism (and The Proud Family, I just feel the moral hit harder with Teen Titans and Static Shock) that stuck with me for years afterwards. Thanks for giving this episode its dues (and pointing out what could have been improved) 😊😊😊 Note: When Starfire says “it means nothing” I don’t think was brushing it off, her tone sounds _resigned_ almost, like she’s used to hearing it, which makes me think others had insulted her the same way and it still hurts. And given how she normally is (bubbly and cheerful) I’m honestly surprised none of the other Titans picked up on it until she outright said it, especially Robin! Thanks for the new video Shady and go hug your furbabies all 💙🐱💙

[@judgem0rt1s23]

I really miss the days where heroes were just *good.* They had a good heart deep down past their flaws, and they always, *ALWAYS* made you want to be a better person. Only real complaint (minor one) I have with this episode break down is not including the moment Robin says *"What?"* the moment he finds out what Valyor was doing to his friend. Always happy to see you do these videos, dude. Would love to see you analyze the episode "Frozen Out" from Static Shock.

[@Haley_Alexis99]

This IS my favorite Starfire episode, and probably in my Top 5 episodes from TT. The clip of the quote you added in at the end that Starfire is saying is my FAVORITE quote from the entire series. This episode never fails to make me cry at the end (because I'm an emotional person, cannot help it). When Star asks Cyborg, in disbelief or maybe wonder, that he also knows what it's like to be judged based off of what he looks like, that hits deep. As children, we automatically come to the conclusion it's because he's part robot (and it is because he's part robot). But when you rewatch the series as an adult, you feel Cyborg's pause. Cyborg knows one of his best friends is an alien. She doesn't understand the concept of people being judged based upon skin color. Being part robot, Cy's brain can (most likely) process information at higher speed. He probably takes note that Star is his alien friend, and won't understand if he says "I'm black." Because his understanding and experience with prejudice is two sided, he settles for "Of course, I do. (Pause.) I'm part robot." He opts for the one she WILL understand. Now, this is just my interpretation, and I could be totally wrong that's the reason for Cyborg's pause between those two sentences. As others have commented, his stating being part robot is correct. But I still think it's neat to see how others interpret things and the messages they learn from them! Essay = over.

[@shipper-of-heart8898]

It kinda makes sense for the team to act this way (as in the chibi versions) though- they may be serious, but they are still teens (so, children p much). Its not often an older, more experienced superhero approaches them and asks for help, so of course theyd go fanboy/fangirl when someone like Val seems super friendly and awesome. To them hes probably like that 'big kid' all the elementary students look up to for being an athlete/super popular/has some quality that kids think is 'cool'