Shallow Rio Negro Biotope: Let's talk about Problems!

[@tanksfornothin]

Love this kind of chat where we can learn from your experience

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thanks! I'm glad this somewhat different format of videos works:)

[@yorkaquariums1840]

I agree that’s it is likely not the oak wood. It shouldn’t leach that much. I would remove the mesh bags under the sand and keep the set up going. It’s a beautiful tank even with the quite literally black water. Hopefully you can get the bags out without destroying the setup!

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! Yes, indeed compost is likely culprit. I will have to figure out how to remove the mesh bags without uprooting all the Echinodorus!

[@Hydrahandle7]

Ya it's not the oak.. Just make it a deeper substrate to cap off. Do 2 small water changes a week and it will work out nicely.. A light hanging off the wall in the middle would solve the problem and look good.. I really like this tank thanks for the video..

[@bigfishlad4847]

I think it looks spectacular Hus

[@aquahobby1982]

Awesome .... glad to see u again . I hope ur move went smooth. 🎉🎉 awesome tank

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! The house move was a bit of a challenge with 6 tanks to move, but all is good now:)

[@lorenzospina3174]

I love the style of your aquariums ❤

[@Chompchompyerded]

Actually that water looks quite similar to that found in Rio Negro (minus the silt load of course), and its tributaries. Also the pools there which form as flood waters recede are this colour even when the silt settles out. That’s probably why your fish are so happy in it. The problem with the plants may or may not be light related. I don’t see the yellowing of leaves which one would expect in a low light environment. Oak is one of the greatest repositories of tannins in the world, and it is even more so when it’s been sitting in a bog somewhere. You may need to soak those monsters for up to a year to get most of the tannins out. May I be so presumptuous as to ask what sorts of botanicals are in your tank? Also? Did you boil them prior to adding them? with some botanicals you will need to boil them several times, letting them stand for a bit each time before adding them to the tank. All that said, I think it looks fantastic! Just like the real thing. It’s also spectacular! It’s cool to see the fish appearing and disappearing from the darkness. Once you have appropriate lighting over it the rays of light penetrating the foliage will be amazing, and will mitigate the darkness a little. As you already aware, full spectrum light is very important for the growth of plants. I understand not wanting to drill holes in the ceiling or walls. Fortunately there is something which can work for that. Have you considered using a couple of vertical lighting posts with grow lights substituted o , or alternatively, a frame on which you can mount broad spectrum lamps? That would surely give them the light they need. There is one other thing I notice which could be contributing to slow plant growth. Your substrate seems to be very thin. Plants need lots of substrate to sink their roots into. You need at least an inch including your cap layer, and some of the larger plants will require more than that. If you don’t have a layer which includes a bio-nutrient your plants will not have enough food to grow. In the rain forest, where all these plants come from, the annual floods wash in plenty of nutrients. Your fish will contribute a little bit, but since most of them are small species in quite a large tank, they may not contribute enough. You may end up having to add a bit to give the plants enough to grow vigorously.The problem with adding enough plant food is that it will also cause algebto grow. To fis this problem, add the critters which graze on algae. Things like snails, plecos, and coreys will serve well in this capacity, and will reduce the amount of cleaning and water changes you have to do. The frequent water changes probably also aren’t helping your plants to grow. There are shrimps which are native to the Amazon basin, but they are too fragile to survive in captivity for more than half an hour. Therefore, bamboo shrimp and neocardinia would be your best choices. Those two shrimp species feed in different ways and will take care of different algae. The neat thing about snails and shrimp is that they self control their population. When they pretty much have the tank clean of algae, they will stop breeding, and the population will decline to a much more manageable scale. The really big benefit of snails and shrimp is that they also add more food for the plants, they clean the leaves of the plants, and the shrimp will even clean all the roots,eating all the alge which have accumulated on the roots, which will in turn vastly improve the plants’ ability to uptake nutrients. I apologize for writing such a long post, but I hope at least some of it will help. Whether you know it or not, you have a spectacular aquarium which only requires a few modifications to make it a museum piece. Please don’t get frustrated with it. You are definitely headed in the right direction!

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thanks for these suggestions! I really appreciate it! I'm glad you like the tank, I should probably be less critical of it, lol. For botanicals, I've only used some jack fruit leaves, which I pre-soak for a week and I know that they leach very little tannins. I guess it is a mixture of oak wood and aquatic compost on the bottom. The layer of substrate is actually fairly deep in the back of the tank, where Echinodorus are planted, but it is impossible to see it because of the turbidity. I thought about shrimp, but my water is extremely soft and acidic. There is hardly any detectable hardness (GH at about 1), so I'm worried that their shells won't handle it. The same with snails, only pond snails seem to survive and occasionally thrive. I lost all nerites previously.

[@Dudelzack]

Erm... one or two additions: Why shrimp or snails anyway? One of the fascinating parts about blackwater setups are aufwuchs and biofilms as a base of a foodchain for the fish. Except the Corydoras all fish in the tank nibble and pick at biofilms. Algae will basically not come into play due to the lack of light coming through thanks to the humic substances. Also besides amazon leaf shrimp (Euryrhynchus amazoniensis) there won't be many species surviving the conditions and they are not fragile, they are simply not exported from South America because they live hidden in the leaf litter and you won't see them in a tank, so people are not interested to pay money. Bamboo shrimp don't belong in a setup like this at all, as they eat things suspended in the water, like freshwater phytoplankton. They would need a certain current and wood pieces in said current to sit an sift on. Neocaridina will thrice in such a setup indefinitely and simply do nothing for it besides reproducing and sometimes falling prey to fish. I see no benefit in this. My suggestion for plant nutrients: Minimal dosage of liquid full spectrum fertilizers following the duckweed index (choose a floating plant, once it starts to go weak add a minimal dose of fertilizers. I'm down to less than 10ml per months in a 100 liter setup and I have a good 10m of pothos growing out of the tank.). About the nutrients being washed in: That's true for the Varzea-forests in Whitewater regions. This here is a setup inspired by the Rio negro, so we're talking nutrient poor blackwater and Igapó-forests. Those are basically devoid of aquatic plants, only those who cheat for light (Nymphea with floating leaves, floating plants, riparian plants) survive. That's why the Hydrocotyle is doing so well. True aquatic plants are a rare sight in these habitats. I'd probably simply remove the mesh bags, add more leaf litter (only soak to sink, not to wash out humic substances) and work with even softer water. Sorry for the long post. I'm running such a setup for years now and been through a lot of experiences in that time.

[@tropicalfishhub]

@@Dudelzack Thanks for these suggestions! I have today removed temporarily all riparian plants except photos. They were melting away, and both calthea and Anthurium lost most of their roots. Fern still had healthy root system, so planted it in a pot. Tomorrow I'll remove all mesh bags and whatever is left of Echinodorus and dwarf sagg. I'll be adding more jack fruit leaves and some savu pods. We'll see what comes out of it!

[@michaelc6755]

In my most recent tank the tannins caused the water to get too dark and I finally used Purigen. In my many years in the hobby I can't believe I've never used it before. It works amazing and it's super easy to use with a canister filter.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thanks! I will give it a try, I never used it before as well

[@kdr1048]

I think it looks excellent! And i bet over time it will get lighter tannins. I think you should leave it be and let it naturally lighten up. It's a beautiful setup!

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! Patience is the key here, I will certainly leave it as it is for another couple of weeks

[@TheMzscorpio99]

I also have a black water setup. Your water is clear. it's your background on the aquarium. Get a submersible light. Place it on the bottom side wall of the tank.

[@tropicalfishhub]

There is actually no background on much of the tank, only in about 20% in the right corner to hide heaters and filter inlets

[@FreshwaterIchthyology]

The actual tannoids from every plant is very difficult to predict. I find it interesting how different woods react. I did experiment with palms and yes they produce tannins but the nutrient levels are insane so you get a lot of black beard algae, filter feeding organisms and bacterial blooms. Bogwood shouldn't be so bad unless collected fresh which isn't bogwood.

[@tropicalfishhub]

I had similar experiences with palm brushes, which seem to affect nutrient levels so much. I am convinced that the main source of tannins in my tank are mesh bags with aquatic pond compost

[@gardian1701]

You need to hang some full spectrum led spot lights above the tank. 👌

[@tropicalfishhub]

That would be the ideal scenario, but I don't want to drill holes in the ceiling or walls

[@tamasfekete7302]

Maybe adding Seachem Purigen to the canister filter would help to remove tannins? 🤔

[@andresp9020]

I think it looks beautiful. Maybe adding a spotlight like or similar to a Kessil on the left side of the tank will lighten up that particular area and will probably create a cool lighting effect within the blackwater.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! I have a small ikea spotlight in the right corner, but it doesnt seem to do much, I guess because the tank is shallow

[@DEXTER-TV-series]

Thanks for sharing your story! Nice to know. What level of nitrates do you have with the compost bags ?

[@DEXTER-TV-series]

I would put an upper sump (just a basin) filled with lava crumbs and direct the water from the canister filter into this basin. And from there by gravity into the aquarium. A large number of bacteria will purify the water, make it transparent and eat tannins.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! Nitrates are actually quite low at about 15. I guess floating plants consume them all

[@oldtyme773]

I don’t think it has anything to do with the aquatic compost. MD Fishtanks uses aquatic compost in most of his set ups & they are all completely crystal clear. The only tank he had with tanning issues was from wood he collected. I suggest putting a bag of aquatic compost in a bucket & see just how much tannings it releases before pulling your set up apart. I believe the tannings are coming from a wood source

[@tropicalfishhub]

It is indeed a mystery to me as I have used compost in my tanks before, although not the same brand. Previously, I never had issues with it and all tannins could have been removed by a single water change

[@fran7336]

It's still a nice set up. Remove the mesh bags and keep going. Oak wood would not leach that much. It seems your riparium plants are not getting much natural light. That could be their problem. Keep going with it I say.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you! I am indeed considering taking off the mesh bags and possibly removing taller riparian plants, leaving pothos and philodendron

[@Gilsfishroom]

Oh dear! Could you try capping the bags with more sand?

[@tropicalfishhub]

I've thought about it, but I'm worried that it will bury the plants too deep in substrate.

[@taliblatif3747]

Just be patient, it will clear after 8 months. It’s healthy so leave it alone

[@aquaracer65]

Is that piece of bark still in there? Could be the problem or indeed otherwise the soil bags. I’ve grown plants like that in pure sand by using root tabs. And take out the carbon in your filter, that stuff is only useful to filter out medicine. It’s still a nice tank though that just needs a little tweaking.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Yes, indeed the cork bark is still in there although I cannot even see it because of tannins! It is quite massive, so you are probably right about it leaching tannins. I'll certainly remove the carbon; it had no effect at all!

[@LushSaltyAquariums]

I'm having the same issue. Though i think culprit could be fine dust from sand. Did you try using a clarifier like fritz? It is not a chemical agent per se. completely harmless. It binds particles which can then be caught in floss in a temporary HOB filter. withing 24 hours the floss totally brown and water clearer.

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thanks! I haven't heard of Fritz before, but now I checked it and I will definitely order it! Your new blackwater tank amazing btw :) I have not finished watching the video yet, but loving the amount of plants! This is what I potentially wanted in my current setup

[@Dudelzack]

That clarifier is not designed for setups like this. It will flocculate everything suspended in the water which then sinks to the bottom. As you have Corydoras and Dicrossus in the tank, the bottomdwellers will be subject to this and it's not advisable.

[@LushSaltyAquariums]

That's precisely whay I use a temporary HOB while utilizing the floculater!@@Dudelzack

[@LushSaltyAquariums]

As I responded to other comment do use temporary HOB filtration during its use.@@tropicalfishhub

[@tropicalfishhub]

Good to know, thanks! I'll rather not use it@@Dudelzack

[@TrevorGreenfield2014]

Have you considered that it might be the piece of cork bark? I used a piece like you have in one of my tanks some years ago and it sent the water very dark.

[@tropicalfishhub]

I think that you might be right as the cork bark is massive. I moved it around today and it is actually still floating, which probably means that it still has some air in it, and possibly more tannins to leach!

[@xentriic]

Would redo all together, if something feels not right that's more or less always the way to go in my mind. For the riparian plants, how about a floor lamp?

[@tropicalfishhub]

I am very much feeling like redoing it! Floor lamp is a great idea, I have not thought about it! Thank you!

[@michaelstruyf8641]

I have mesh bags with pond soil.. and never had problems with it. I think its the wood

[@tropicalfishhub]

Yes, I never had problems with soil before too

[@Dudelzack]

Botanicals, leaf litter and wood usually make for yellowish tint. The turbidness does not come from anything leaching in the water directly, the compost might cause bacterial blooms (as the biofilm on the surface seems to proof). What usually helps is using pure RO as the base water, as then the stuff leaching in the water doesn't do much. In true blackwater some turbidness is not wrong. Crystal clear water is not the norm. Also I can tell you from experience, true aquatic plants don't work in Rio Negro setups. More light for the emersed plants is advisable, indeed.

[@tropicalfishhub]

It makes sense indeed, considering that carbon did not work. It does seem like bacterial boom. I guess I'll keep on with water changes until my patience runs thin and I pull out all mesh bags with compost!

[@Dudelzack]

@@tropicalfishhub After the discussions here in the comments and revisiting the video two times... probably for the best to remove the mesh bags rather sooner than later and using a combination of very soft base water, lots of added humic substances (for the colour you desire use the extract of 4-5 bags of rooibos and 20-25 alder cones in 3 liters RO every two weeks) and work up to a minimal dosage of liquid fertilizer. I estimate you will need about 10-15ml per months tops.

[@tropicalfishhub]

@@Dudelzack I'll proceed with that tomorrow! Will let you know the results

[@radx78]

Love look of a tank though

[@tropicalfishhub]

Thank you!

[@93kristof]

Try some Purigen

[@Hydrahandle7]

At sand and pull some wood 🪵