Gloomhaven | Shelfside Review

[@dannyp4174]

This video has made me realize my biggest problem with Gloomhaven is I'm not playing it with Daniel. Incredibly detailed and thorough review. A masterpiece you might say.

[@Sean.Lim.]

Agreed! Daniel, do you go on the GH Digital Discord channel by chance? Keen to play with ya!

[@Shelfside]

Naw, I always just play with my pals atm, but I'd be interested later on! Right now I'm looking more into the possibility of streaming Gloomhaven digital -Daniel

[@jeffhoward1423]

I am here to say a few things: 1) I'm an Ashton fan, but I am really hoping that Daniel gets unleashed now that his two year project is over. 2) Recalibrating viewers to the idea that a 7 rating is good = brilliant and SO NECESSARY. The gig economy and associated apps have ruined the 1-5 or 1-10 scale. Thank you for addressing that critical element of all reviews. And 3) this is one of the best, most well thought out, written, and edited reviews I have ever watched (of any media). Your channel has quickly shot up my subs to my top three among boardgames channels. Well done and thank you!

[@meathir4921]

That intro has so many references, from Obi Wan to SUASD and Egoraptor, it was glorious.

[@Maspital]

Please don't call them SUASD, that just feels wrong :D

[@colboy1fish]

The sit down & shut up mat saying "its a little rat" in the intro

[@dinklebutt1003]

I don’t really enjoy dungeon crawlers or co-ops, so I have close to no interest in Gloomhaven, but I’ll be god damned if I’m not going to watch this whole thing. You fellas are just…. Very fucking entertaining.

[@CareyMcDuff]

Fantastic! I'll probably never play Gloomhaven, but now I feel like I understand it. Plus so many insights on game design. Thank you for putting the time and effort into making this!

[@Shelfside]

glad ya got a lot out of it! Cheers! -Ashton

[@tuandatphan8216]

I am so happy to see my art getting featured at 25:19. You guys truly make killer videos, please keep them coming.

[@adnamvietnam1]

I just got home after a 5 hour drive from getting away for a long weekend. This video kept me entertained whilst unpacking, tidying and getting the clothes washed. Thank you. Now to play some gloomhaven. 👍👍👍

[@JJW667]

Amazing review. Funny, fast-paced, and fair.

[@BenBoersma]

As usual, an amazingly comprehensive and entertaining review! Thank you for taking so much time to put it together 🤠👍

[@weeyao]

Incredible epic review. Can’t believe I watched in entirety. Balanced review.

[@Shelfside]

Much appreciated!

[@yourbeardlybro5887]

I'm glad you went over the Gloomhaven games! Daniel doesn't disappoint! Quality review

[@Shelfside]

Thanks!

[@rahdo]

god damn daniel, this is a masterpiece!

[@Shelfside]

Yoooo thanks for the comment! -Daniel

[@anonmisfit]

i got 700+ hrs in this game with dozens of hours on almost all chars n having tried out all major builds on said chars and still, i couldnt help but watch this with a fat smile on my face. tyvm

[@Shelfside]

Hell yeah! I wish I was that deep lol I have a responsibility to play other games haha -Daniel

[@chrisdeutsch4669]

Thanks for the amazing videos! I randomly recently played a Gloomhaven game where the owner just handed out 4 random tuckboxes and we opened up to scenario one and went at it. He only played once before and was never going to actually play as a proper campaign so it worked out rather well.

[@Shelfside]

That's great to hear! People are always so intimidated by the prospect of starting a massive campaign with the massive box so it's cool seeing people just diving in without caring! -Daniel

[@PaulMB40]

What a staggeringly incisive and comprehensive review. I can only begin to imagine the amount of work that went to it. As epic and monstrously detailed as the game itself. Oh, it was bloody funny, too. Incredible.

[@Shelfside]

Thanks! Yeah this took a few months for sure hahaha -Daniel

[@jakecrowe3797]

So thankful for Ashton’s score. I’ve been thinking I’ve been missing something after my few plays of this game, but I realized euro style gaming isn’t for me, especially in a dungeon crawl. Thanks for all your hard work! Love your long form videos.

[@Shelfside]

Cheers! Still hasn't budged after all of these years :) -Ashton

[@KZsZs]

Guys these new intros are CRAZY GREAT! :D

[@ilanberci]

One of the best reviews I have ever seen.. So fast, precise, efficient... fantastic

[@Kriakye2435]

Watched this a second time while making some food. Such a great overview of a large game! Nice job! 👍👀👍

[@Table.Fables]

Very well thought out and comprehensive review- absolutely brilliant chaps I applaud you! Ps was gutted with Ashton’s score… and SO happy when I got Daniel’s LOL

[@DeyaViews]

The opening had me absolutely stunned. Amazing piece of work! I found myself laughing upon recognizing Egoraptor's voice and Matt Lees from Shut Up & Sit Down. The special effects were very well done. Mad props. :D I've played Jaws of the Lion for 5 missions with my datefriend. I liked that pretty well, but Gloomhaven itself would be too huge for me (though minis always tempt me). Gloomhaven digital would be cool to try though. I figure I might have the same thing with Scythe digital in that Gloomhaven digital would cut down SO MUCH on the downtime. (Also a big reason why I like BoardGameArena.) Games on a physical tabletop in my house should have that in-person experience add on to the whole experience, not detract from it. Gloomhaven seems like it COULD hit just right... or completely fail at that.

[@olivierjodoin2283]

Gloomhaven (200h+) and Scythe (20h+) are 2 excellent games on Steam that I probably could never get to the table in physical form.

[@indeimaus]

maybe the best gloomhaven video i've seen

[@Shelfside]

Thank you! More haven stuff coming from us :) -Ashton

[@curiousintuit]

This review was longer than most board games, and I love it.

[@marcelcwertetschka]

looking forward to your forgotten circles review ;P Awesome video!

[@andreidinu4438]

The intros do convince you to stay for the whole 1 hour qnd 30 minutes of the video tho.

[@Brockoly3]

Your guys reviews are great. Very thorough and well thought out.

[@bastianvillebro6420]

That intro had be dying i swear you guys are geniuses:D The best review of this game I’ve seen so far

[@vlowolvtake1797]

Never played Gloomhaven but loved this review.

[@PickleTheHutt]

A friend and I finished the campaign (around 55-60 scenarios for us, most but not all unlocks) over about a year and a half playing one scenario every week or two. We only lost a couple of times total. We used the Gloomhaven Helper app to manage the encounters (I consider it essential) as I absolutely HATE the fiddliness required out of the box. I don't regret playing, but near the end I was entirely sick of the game and probably would have just quit except my friend was enjoying it more than me. We stopped going for unlocks and side quests near the end and just rushed the campaign story (or "story" is more appropriate as the narrative and writing are quite weak). After we finished, I packed everything up, including an unopened Forgotten Circles, and gave it all to my friend. A couple of years later and I still have zero interest in the system and will completely skip Jaws of the Lion and Frosthaven.

[@Shelfside]

Yeah the repetitiveness is really big problem if you're trying to do a sizable amount of scenarios, the game would've definitely benefited from less scenarios but they were more individually unique. -Daniel

[@user-nd1mz4hp6w]

(Cover your ears Ashton) Every so often i come back to watch this video just for the intro, and to hear someone talk about GH who appreciates it as much as i do. And Daniel is funny as hell.

[@David-jv3ws]

I agree with Ashton's review. I wanted to like it but I ended up hating it. Yet one of my favourite games is Mage Knight which shares some similarities. But unlike MK I quickly got burned out by GH, which is weird considering that MK is more complex

[@Shelfside]

I came in wanting to hate it but ended up liking it LOL -Daniel

[@hamescarlos]

I usually don’t watch 1hr plus review videos, but your charismas make it enjoyable. Keep up the good work. PS this is my 5th video watching (watched from beginning to end: Tainted Grail, Bloodrage, Ankh, Rising Sun and this one).

[@Shelfside]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@lp9092]

That intro! Omg. I subbed just based on that. Great commentary too. Very funny and open review. Great point that everything you need for this massive journey is all in one package. I’ve spent more on lesser games going through expansion content. GH isn’t for everybody, but it ticks all the boxes for me... in a giant box.

[@Shelfside]

Thank you! This game really is a journey and Daniel did a splendid job putting this all together. Can't wait for FH! -Ashton

[@lp9092]

@@Shelfside np Ashton. You guys deserve kudos and more subs. :). I thought your JoTL review was great too. Nice to have games reviews by people who actually play them... not just one time review copies. (Though I get that you’re not invested in GH.). If you enjoy dice-chucking mechanics and that’s one of the elements missing for you in GH, have you tried Too Many Bones? That may be more of your style - though the price to go all-in... gasp!. (Apologies if you’ve already reviewed TMB... I’m just now on to your content.). Anyway, Best to you both! - Luke

[@Shelfside]

@@lp9092 Cheers! Yeah I'm not the most invested in GH, but still curious to see what FH has. I have not tried Too Many Bones, yet a good friend has a copy we're supposed to play soon! There's a certain sweet spot where there's not TOO much dice chucking for me in a game though, something like HeroQuest can be quite a bit, Descent 2nd ed hit a good middle ground. Will have to investigate this topic further! -Ashton

[@lp9092]

@@Shelfside sweet. If you get some plays in I’ll look forward to hearing what you think of TMB. I originally wrote off Bones because it was so rule-heavy and seemed bad on TTS. (NoPunIncluded: “It’s a great game to play with your friends... if you don’t want to be friends anymore.”) But I gave it a few goes on the physical version and found it rewarding and fun.

[@Shelfside]

@@lp9092 ahaha awesome! Yeah I think I would only play physical, quite dislike rolling dice on TTS :3 -Ashton

[@sebastienvivas9319]

The much anticipated and incredible LORD DANIEL review is finally upon us. I thank thee oh great patron of wisdom and JANK!

[@CleaveBuscemi]

I just wanted to stop after the intro and say... my first character was the cragheart, and i loved that someone else noticed his belt says Kyle. It's like the class was made for me!

[@Shelfside]

It's actually a decently popular joke within the community haha -Daniel

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

Lots of great insights and love the 3 scores you guys use at the end of your reviews. Cheers!

[@mel_from_hell]

A friend suggested me this review and as an avid gloomhaven player, I must say sir you got a new subscriber, you have raised very solid points

[@Shelfside]

thank you! Can't wait to see what we think of frosthaven -Ashton

[@lohipuikko9043]

I have to say while I also like the Digital version of Gloomhaven with my friends we all agree that digital will never beat physical for us. Its just simply more fun for us personally to play with each other face to face and actually touch the components. But the one bad thing I will say is that the game absolutely benefits from an organizer as it makes the setup way faster and efficient. So if you are gonna get this already expensive game a organizer is highly recommended and it ads more to the overall price. Is it worth it still? In our humble opinion absolutely yes and me and my friends cannot wait for Frosthaven.

[@septimustavi9352]

Circles and Two-Minis are probably my favourite two classes :D I consider Gloomhaven helper to be pretty much essential if you want to play scenarios in a timely manner, it tracks sooooooooooooo much stuff that would otherwise be fiddly little things on the table and allows you to get into playing quicker since you dont have to spend a heap of time setting up the monsters with their ability and stat cards. Have also found it way easier to check how much health and what status conditions a monster has through the app than from the included components. Jaws tutorial is, imo, the best board game tutorial I have ever encountered. Also I feel like if the Gloomhaven scenarios were more unique, closer to Forgotten Circles' scenarios, it would feel a lot less repetitive towards the end even with the "Kill all enemies" goals. Also if they had the hybrids in Gloomhaven that would have added a good deal more variety and new challenges.

[@somefishhere]

Hi! From the future. Frosthaven does a lot of things right. And oooo I just unlocked Coral and now I understand why you’re so excited. I know that you get a great deal of Gloomhaven done through digital, does that mean you’ll ever get into Crimson Scales and Trail of Ashes? I really dig the dev-blogs about the character creation process for those.

[@Shelfside]

I definitely want to play them, but no idea when I'll get around to them it's real busy behind the scenes here (Frosthaven review is in its final stages of editing after all these months lol) -Daniel

[@domestica33]

Kudos to the best gloomhaven review ever. A++

[@imaqt3.14]

I always felt your guys delivery was sometimes inspired by Egoraptor. Maybe there's some truth to it 🧐🧐.

[@Shelfside]

Very much some truth to it -Daniel

[@henriwhitehead]

Great review! You capture Gloomhaven perfectly.

[@nfischer091]

So happy to see a fellow Circles lover! I feel like it has a bad rep as being weak or difficult but I found it to be the most satisfying class to play by far.

[@Shelfside]

Circles is so funny to play lmao screw all the bad rep, trying to keep a bipolar runaway train on its rails is the most entertaining thing ever hahaha -Daniel

[@benjaminloyd6056]

These intro segments could certainly be a big part of your "thing", unique to your channel. Gloomhaven is the grandfather of cardboard bloat.

[@douglasstoll7520]

Heck of a thorough review.

[@donbooger]

I just watched a boardgame review that is as long as a movie on a boardgame I have already played dozens of times. I am really into this hobby it seems.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

7 is good.

[@Shelfside]

This guy gets it -Daniel

[@McCartyMM]

Lol about the conversation about X and your saw status.

[@Shelfside]

Yeah my experience with X was a complete shitshow lmao -Daniel

[@creamysmooth79]

I enjoy the game, but I didn't end up loving it like I thought I would. That probably comes down to hype and expectation rather than anything else, and it was honestly comforting to see Ashton's review, agreeing with everything and realizing that I am not the only person in the world that wasn't blown away by it, because it sure feels that way sometimes. I had to keep playing because I figured it must just click or get better or something, because that many people can't be wrong. I have had fun with it, so I would give it a 6 or 7 out of 10, and I am glad that other people really do love it, I just didn't feel the same love unfortunately.

[@Pynkthunder]

Great review! can't wait for your take on Frosthaven.

[@Shelfside]

You and me both!

[@morpheus587]

Great video! GH has never interested me personally. I do have JOTL in shrink, not in a hurry to play it though. Did get it for $30 seemed like a screaming deal. One day I'll play it and if I like it I'm sure I will be able to find original GH on Ebay on the cheap.

[@Shelfside]

Definitely the way to go! Seeing if you like the combat just from playing Jaws will make or break your experience lol -Daniel

[@TheAlfahDj]

Bro, gloomhave shines when someone takes the DM role of fabricating an story, and make his own scenarios. The first thing we ditched, was the tiles, and got some hex paper and went to town with a printer. Also added some skills ala DnD 5e and made some scenarios for roleplaying. Thats the coolest reason to have gloomhaven, it becomes a Dnd experience, all in itself, with a ton of structure.

[@anonmisfit]

sounds awesome!

[@wayner396]

Best review I've seen of this game. Looks neat but i dont think it's quite for me as for this much upkeep I'd rather play a video game but I'm super happy to see board gamed hitting this point where they can basically be an offline video game. Awesome job.

[@ShadyNetworker]

Thanks for breaking the game down man! The real question, though: have you looked....UNDER the black box insert?

[@starburst7681]

You're a braver man than I

[@Shelfside]

If you look carefully in the video when components are on screen, it's definitely there lol -Daniel

[@DementedDistraction]

Screaming under the approach of Hero Quest made me crack up so badly. 🤣

[@justacynic]

New subscriber on this review that I'm only 37 minutes into. Why have I not heard of Shelfside before???

[@Shelfside]

KZbin algorithm works in mysterious ways lol -Daniel

[@fy8798]

Egoraptor, in a gloomhaven video?! Nice review, and quite fair!

[@Shelfside]

Egoraptor was my childhood lol -Daniel

[@dylanhoward4978]

Played like 10 scenarios in this game and this video is the first time I noticed the damage tokens have numbers on them. Personally I like to load damage tokens onto enemies as HP tokens and take them off as damage is dealt so it's easier to tell at a glance what is close to being dead.

[@kaushikpaddy7467]

Ive had the big box since 2019... I organized it all with an insert but was too intimidated to play it since it is gonna be solo.. Picked up Jaws of the lion and it makes the game so easy to learn!

[@hongcuong]

This guy's hyper anime spirit is just entertaining to watch. Wonder how he got so much energy to talk nonstop I'm constantly hooked! LOL! xD

[@Tivizzz]

Nice lil’ Matt cameo :)

[@DustyLamp]

Siding with Ashton on this, but enjoying the long form reviews!

[@zoro-sn1zy]

That soundrel video got me into your channel.

[@illid4ri]

awesome review...! ain't anyone in the comments going to point out and fuss that Dark Soul is called out while Bloodborne is shown?? reallyyyy? you guys are just pretending.

[@Shelfside]

it do be called the soulsborne genre -Daniel

[@miya7430]

Music in intro makes me want to have a chill drum break

We need a Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy Review

[@MoviesWithRandy]

I have been on the fence about this game for a loooong time. I love the idea and I love the art and the idea of getting into something like it. For someone like me I love dice rolls for Combat and defense it’s just what I’m used to, cards just feels a lot less of an intensity. But I’ll probably still buy it so when I rewatch this for the 8th time I can all the more understand the pain of how huge the game is.

[@adamlong9728]

I know me too, clunking dice down, with the sound and the hand action, much more simulates doing a real attack! More so than flipping over a card or, as in some games, drawing a chit from a bag.

[@janboyen4414]

You sir a true hero! This video has better direction than de 3 multi billion Disney Star Wars movies. Thank u...

[@Shelfside]

It's almost like being my own director with complete creative control means everything comes from a cohesive package straight outta my head lol -Daniel

[@jackogoeswacko4smackos]

top notch video editing

[@shortydancer]

Yo was that an Ashton impression at 30:30 ?

[@Shelfside]

Wasn't trying to be but now that you bring it up i cant unhear it -Daniel

[@kosterix123]

Amusing story and impressive to have finished it. The conclusion is that it’s unbalanced midway on, you need digital solutions and therefore you might as well play other video games. I realized I’m done with analog fiddliness. I’d rather play board games optimized for something specific rather than a modular system like GH. But my biggest gripe with GH is that I dislike the art, the font. The lack of world lore. The lack of motivation for my heroes and the lack of npc interaction. If all that’s left is hex based combat, play Memoir or Hoplomachus Victorum. I hope the world building will be better in FH and that unlockables will have requirements. That event cards display what card they originated from. FH will likely be better but Isofarian will be delivered earlier so I’ll play that first.

[@Shelfside]

Certainly with you on the fiddliness and theme/presentation of the game. I just can't get into it! Stil boggles my mind how Daniel is so into it. I also like neuroshima hex/monolith arena for my hex play, but I suppose that isn't a dungeon crawler ahaha. Here's to hoping what's next in FH -Ashton

[@wheelskis]

Have you tried Mage Knight? I got it when the pandemic first struck after researching best solo games. It is a fantastic game that I have played many times and would not ever play multiplayer. If you're looking for a dungeon crawler, asymmetry, and very relevant and well crafter character upgrades throughout a scenario, I would highly recommend.

[@Shelfside]

played it once in high school with Daniel actually! Really enjoyed it, but yeah certainly wouldn't want to play multiplayer again. We'll have to give it a review one day since so many people bring it up :) -Ashton

[@triplea657aaa]

The envelopes are the reason I use house-rules in most games.

[@kevinpitts4107]

We started to play the scenarios at random. We played 40+ scenarios following the story and it never really meant anything to us and got lost in what we could do or couldn’t do so we just open the book and say let’s play this. Mostly so we can get accomplishments to open up new character boxes. House rules are so important with this game.

[@Shelfside]

Agreed on finding your own way to play! I also remember Daniel telling me that he totally lost track of the story very quickly too, also maybe helped by us being completionists ahaha. Cheers! -Ashton

[@Shelfside]

Going forward now that the review is done I'm probably going to do something similar lol -Daniel

[@johnathankokoski]

Epic review!

[@fireprooof101]

Thanks! Thisbwas a great video!Not even done with JOTL but found a super deal on Gloomhaven, I cant wait to start, but I must, I must wait..

[@MafiulRobin]

GH JOTL is 10/10 for me.

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

While one wouldn't expect a game of this calibre (read: price) to have some of these issues you listed (especially ones concerning components, tokens, tiles etc.) most are easily mitigated but yes, mitigation does require extra investment in terms of components not included in the box. For example, I'm using dice instead of tokens for damage (and I'm not the only one), and I even got some TerrainCrate stuff and some aquarium equipment to replace the overlay tiles (that is purely because I wanted to see how it would look like. It looks amazing :P). Hell, I even got some pebbles from the beach to represent some obstacles, and I made some pillars and columns out of clay lol. Those looked horrible but for a few sessions they adorned our map tiles. I personally don't mind the fiddliness around monster attack cards, conditions, elements etc. If anything I find the app equally fiddly, as I'm just replacing fiddle with a faddle, but that's okay, to each their own, obviously. I don't even mind the repetitiveness of most of these scenarios. My partner and I are casual players and we don't get into the nitty gritty of how this item behaves with this class or how this ability is comboing (or not) off of that or this, we just play and try to make the best of it. We are surprisingly good at it, for the lack of in depth analysis. Two biggest problems we have with GH are unbalanced scenarios for certain classes (that's definitely a thing, even WE can see that) and the story itself is so meh and lost in everything that's happening it stops being important or even clear after a few side quests. We are near the end of the main story line and for the love of it I have NO idea what's happening, who's who, what we are trying to do, who said what, who we killed when, nothing. I hope Frosthaven will have some better system of story tracking.

[@Shelfside]

Custom map and overlay tiles always looked amazing based on what I've seen from the subreddit, but I'd personally save the effort for something like DnD over Gloomhaven lol Regarding fiddliness, what's important at the end of the day is to use whatever you feel the most comfortable and efficient with, but there's also the fact that using digital tools allows a speed that unfortunately isn't possible when using all physical components (click is always faster than reaching around, and there's no need to setup monster stats/cards). It unfortunately absolutely is a real thing that tons of players are put off by how much bookkeeping is involved with Gloomhaven. I also have high hopes for Frosthaven since they've hired a writer and have an excerpt book you read from constantly when doing certain things in the game, which hopefully makes the narrative more focused! -Daniel

[@Madnetz]

Please, come back when you're done with Forgotten Circles. I was waiting for it it show up as either "this solves all my problems" or "this is not a problem, excpet for in forgotten circles"

[@Shelfside]

You bet I will, but that will be a different video considering this is just a review of base Gloomhaven. Sequels/expansions have overhauled so many systems and rules that if someone were to play base Gloomhaven with all the improvements the score would actually increase! -Daniel

[@richardmagel4247]

I am sooooo looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Frosthaven when you get it

[@Shelfside]

I just can't wait to finally get after all these delays haha -Daniel

[@zylapena9967]

I'm surprised Ashton did not like GH because of "programmed actions". I think approaching enemies and doing 2 generic attack actions is much more monotonous and boring (I'm looking at you Descent). I can totally relate to Daniel wanting to play GH ALL THE FREAKIN TIME with our game group. 10/10 masterpiece indeed and a fine example of genius game design.

[@Shelfside]

surprised I didn't like it either! Something about programming just doesn't put me in a dungeon crawling mood at all. Cheers! -Ashton

[@otakuofmine]

its really great how many things GH 2nd seem to adress in the negative section.

[@Shelfside]

Yea I could entirely remove the gameplay cons minus the time length one which is kinda wild -Daniel

[@otakuofmine]

@@Shelfside Indeed, its what you want from a "remake", so glad they listened. it will be even my first dive into the game, so i feel lucky there.

[@TheRoseCat6_11]

so im 4 sinarios (well, im on the 4th one) into JotL, and man... now i kind of want to get the beeg box. i want to wait for a sale though cuz ive seen it on amazon for like $100. anyway, amazing review! i didn't think i'd watch a 90min review video today but here i am. u defiantly sold me on the game, even with all the cons. my only worry is that i'd probably end up playing mostly solo. i didn't know about the adding players if u want thing though, so i might be able to invite my siblings every once in a while. but its all thoughts now, i should probably finish JotL 1st. anyway (again) thanks for the review, and keep up the amazing work!

[@Shelfside]

hey cheers! You may want to be on the lookout for frosthaven too, since that's coming up soon! -Ashton

[@TheRoseCat6_11]

@@Shelfside oooh, i definitely will! It looks super cool

[@rmsgrey]

Some random thoughts: I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't find the stamina potions to be that powerful - maybe I'm just not setting out to exploit them fully, or maybe it's that we haven't unlocked that one class yet. They're good, and they work equally well for any class, so they're an easy, safe pick when you're first equipping a new character (and if you're at high enough reputation, 10 gold items are effectively just somewhere to park 5 gold until you want to spend it), but there are other items I'd get first for several classes, and I've frequently finished scenarios with an unused stamina potion sitting amongst multiple spent/consumed items. Starting play is one place where Gloomhaven is really lacking. The instructions to start the campaign are actually on the inside front cover of the scenario book - but the only way to find that out (using what's in the box) is by actually cracking open the big book of spoilers to see what's in it. As for using Gloomhaven purely to free-play scenarios without bothering with the campaign, while I've never done so myself, my immediate appraisal of the campaign (even before getting into the "story") is that it's primary function is to ration out the content so you're not just getting almost a hundred scenarios, seventeen classes and over a hundred items dumped on you and being told to pick - instead, you have a handful of scenarios you're encouraged to pick between at any given point (assuming you prefer to not replay old scenarios in casual mode) and relatively few classes that your attention is being steered toward, as well as drip-feeding the items (though having most of the staple items in the initial shop is definitely a suboptimal design choice given that so many new items get unlocked later). It's definitely viable to come up with your own system for picking classes and scenarios instead of the existing campaign.

[@Shelfside]

Great comment! When it comes to Stamina Potions, there's been so many times where doubling up on a strong card may as well have the effectiveness of playing a loss card (seriously, double cragheart massive boulder while backup ammunition is live is just not ok), and also fixing your hand to get out of sticky situations is absolutely insane, especially if you purposefully put yourself in those situations to do huge AOE's that normally wouldn't be safe. -Daniel

[@rmsgrey]

@@Shelfside If I'm going to be risking myself in order to do a huge AOE, I'd rather use a power potion to make it more likely that it does the job the first time than a stamina potion to recycle it. Fewer incoming hits to absorb that way. And if I'm ever in a position where repeating the same action two turns in a row is that valuable, I can usually short rest to do it (often costing less than losing a card from hand, at worst costing 1 additional point of damage over losing a card from hand). And as an example of class-specific priorities, with a Scoundrel, I'd want to secure a source of invisibility (as Smoke Bomb insurance to make sure the doubling effect actually fires), a source of advantage (to avoid nulls on the big single-target attacks), and a source of jump/flying (boots or enhancement) before looking at stamina potions - being able to jump over an unexpected roadblock rather than giving up most of a planned Move 5 gives you the "oops, I'll try that again" benefit of a stamina potion in a reusable format. The Scoundrel's also a fairly good example of a pretty consistent class - if one Move 5 whiffs, you've probably got a second in hand; if you draw a null on your Attack 3 +2 for isolation, you've probably got a second one of those too. Low hand size does mean that the increased stamina from stamina potions is more useful than for some classes, but most of the time their strongest non-loss actions are non-unique, or close to. Or there's a locked class which I haven't played myself, where my friend playing it made Attack 5s turn after turn without needing stamina potions. I do still consider getting a stamina potion a viable choice for pretty much any character - the insurance is nice, and you'll often have space for another minor item - but it's not the first shopping priority. And unless you go in planning to force using it for a specific combo, or at a specific point, there's a good chance you'll reach the end of the scenario without having needed that insurance...

[@Shelfside]

Ah, when I was talking about "normally wouldn't be safe", I'm referring to instances where the cards don't line up properly but the play would be possible if you go in and then recover something to safely get back out next turn on fast initiative. And while it's true you can just short rest early, you still don't want to be doing that too often because burning longevity on well timed loss actions is usually going to put in far more work. When it comes to scoundrel, I've found that I didn't need invisibility cloak because their movement and initiatives are so good you can pretty easily control whether or not you want to get hit in the first place, so instead I took item 16 for more utility spam. I also didn't find a source of advantage useful because of Flurry of Blades, which could also just be recovered with a stam pot if need be. But back to the stam pot, for how cheap it is for how much effort it puts in, it's way too strong not just for enabling broken sequences but also the versatility of being insurance, on top of increased longevity. The most powerful instances are going to be using it to spam powerful actions. Mindthief with 4 stuns instead of 2 before a rest, Scoundrel doing 2 back to back Visage, Brute doing back to back dozens of damage from Balanced measure, the list of hilariously dumb combos is never ending. Stamina potion is even nerfed in Jaws (1 card not 2), and then nerfed again in Frosthaven lol (1 level 1 card) -Daniel

[@rmsgrey]

@@Shelfside One big annoyance I has as Scoundrel was playing the top of Smoke Bomb to set up a big attack the next round, then something unexpected happens so the attack isn't viable. Having a way to turn invisible on demand later means being able to make that doubled attack after all rather than it being lost. It's not invisibility to avoid hits; it's invisibility so you can turn a single target into paste - which is the same reason for wanting advantage: so your one loss action of the scenario doesn't get nulled out. When I was playing Scoundrel, it wasn't unusual for me to leave the rest of the party to mop up, and go off and do my own thing in a different part of the map for a while, solo-ing entire rooms. The trouble with arguing for stamina potion as an insurance policy and arguing for it as a combo enabler is that you can only do one - if you're letting your Mindthief use stun most rounds, then you're doing that early (late in the scenario, you'll have thinned out the non-stun cards anyway, so you'll naturally be stunning most rounds) while using it as insurance means hanging on to it unused until late. And, yes, it's good value for the gold cost, but it remains something I pick up later in my build, if I have the spare pouch, and if I'm not saving the gold for something else (or have high reputation so it's not a net loss to sell it back to the shop) - for example, with a class that can do interesting things with summons, I'd rather use my minor item slots for (expensive) summon-related items that directly interact with my class abilities than for the (cheap) generic stamina potion. I recognise that popular opinion is against me, but I still think that a lot of the popularity of stamina potions is because they're easy and cheap, not because they're best-in-slot for a given class.

[@razzendahcuben]

Thank you for the thorough critique. Though I must say... 10/10? How does one enjoy it so much despite having such a keen awareness of its cons? In my 30 years of gaming, I have probably two games that I would call 9/10s, and I understand how its possible to love something that is simultaneously frustrating in certain respects, but to me a 10/10 cannot have so many significant design flaws. The implementation of items, the repetitive objectives, the underwhelming narrative... how does that not dock GH by at least one point?

[@Shelfside]

Everyone all has their own personal preferences! I'd equate this to how it's not only possible to have guilty pleasures, but to not have certain flaws detract from one's experience. I don't really care about a ton of the balance and repetition issues because I love to theorycraft and mess around with weird builds all the time, which gets around the balance and repetition problems. On top of that, I'm really deep into the Gloomhaven community and I'm aware of "patches" that are constantly being pushed out from sequels and expansions such as Frosthaven's inspiration system and advantage/disadvantage rule change. Were there to be another printing with all those updated rules and systems changes, Gloomhaven's recommender score would actually increase lol (but that probably won't happen because it seems like Cephalofair is far more interested in pushing out new stuff) -Daniel

[@MagicalAlpaca]

I beat jotl solo and beat half of gloomhaven solo and still have an amazing time but I had to take a long break bc it definitely is a puzzle and when playing solo with 3 and 4 characters, it becomes exhausting after a while but I still love it and will finish it one day.

[@ashtonwu7760]

Daniel tore it up here

[@eriksjogren800]

Thank you for the video

[@calaiart]

The digital argument is ridiculous. Then I could make a case to give up board games altogether and only play video games because you can do more with them

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

Have you played 'Gunshi, The Art of Strategy'? I received it today. I bought it blindly, and I'm wondering how it's viewed by the gaming community.

[@normg7399]

Nice Review! I would like to ask what do you think about the bosses in gloomhaven? I often think that gloomhaven is lagging in quality related to some Boss encounters and they become a little underwhelming most of the time. Either they are to weak or boring. What do you think?

[@Shelfside]

I think bosses are pretty hit or miss. There's definitely a few that I absolutely loved, and others that didn't really do anything special beyond just being a big pile of stats that spawns more dudes. But I definitely agree that most of the time bosses are a little undertuned, though I'm not sure if that's because of the bosses themselves or because of how a lot of classes have easy ways to do HUGE single target damage. -Daniel

[@aiaegaming2952]

Someone that also prefers Circles :o I haven't unlocked every class, so it might not be definitive, but I do think Circles will remain my favourite

[@Shelfside]

Circles really is something else haha -Daniel

[@rmsgrey]

I started Circles at prosperity 6, and loved it.

[@Architectofawesome]

Bro, I would not play a digital board game over an actual video game in any case besides playing with people if we can't get physically together but that seems like a very niche thing.

[@Allen-P]

Holy crap 90 minutes!

[@Xenmas021]

Agree that "kill all enemy" scenarios are way too common, but if those rare objective quests feel like "kill all enemies" it's because you're playing too low of a difficulty

[@Shelfside]

Yeah I'd agree with this sentiment for the vast majority of the game, but also with sufficiently skilled players there's a tipping point around level 7+. At that point unless everyone is purposefully playing with underpowered classes and items, the game's difficulty doesn't really meaningfully scale even on +2/3. Thankfully in Frosthaven, difficulty 6 & 7 for the enemies are going to scale much higher than in Gloomhaven! -Daniel

[@jperes889]

I started with Jaws and it is perfect for me. 90 scenarios is not really a plus because I want to play other games, I would get bored at some point. As great as the game mechanics are, I probably won't purchase the big box or even Frosthaven but who knows maybe at some point I let myself tempted.

[@Shelfside]

Totally valid, playing Gloomhaven and Frosthaven has me questioning why I even have other board games lol -Daniel

[@xtraplayer7281]

You'll have to do a review of 2.0

[@DarthNVious]

That dude on 1:00 whiplashed his head so hard on that concrete. Totally his fault.