Shibata vs Fritz Gyger: Sonic Differences Between Stylus Tip Shapes

[@60ndown]

if I have to try hard to hear a difference, I go with the cheaper option, because it sounds about the same :)

[@richardsoffice9176]

Thank you! Sometimes these differences can be important. Back in the mid to late 60's a lot of people had conical shaped styli with a heavy tracking weight, eventually there would be record wear. Then, if you used a cartridge with an elliptical stylus, this would ride lower in the groove, below the wear caused by the larger conical stylus, and provide much better sound, perhaps like brand new. I've obtained the same results between wear caused by an elliptical stylus, and then using a Shibata. Also, a fine line elliptical or Shibata should have lower inner groove distortion, at the lower relative record groove speed, there. From memory, I was told by the Marantz people years ago that Saul Marantz was responsible for the Shure elliptical cartridge, this was perhaps the first V-15, made to his specifications for the first Marantz radial tracking turntable. There was no deviation, because the tone arm came in from the right side, straight across the record radius. It had a precision gear assembly, which required a little more tracking force.

[@bucurion4882]

The sounds is very detailed and clarity. I think Fritz Geiger are more detailed than Shibata. By the way the two needles sound amazing

[@matereo]

The OM40 is still a very valid well sounding design.

[@mgsamps]

Sounds to me like the the FG is down a couple of dB around the 250-300Hz range compared to the Shibata, other than that not a lot of difference. Great videos, my ass hurts where I've been sitting here listening and watching ALL your vids for so long.

[@HiFisquarepants]

LOL! Thanks ;)

[@sam66hazmal]

I am hearing cymbals through the fritz gyger seem to ring more naturally on this recording and resonate better.

[@davidjaine5397]

True they do....although on the 2M theres slightly [a minuscule] more definition between the instruments. The FG also seems a little louder.

[@stimpacat]

I have a Audio Tech AT214S. I have it on my AR-XA. I have Harkness C-40s. Waiting for my Citation 1 and 2(McShane Kit) and can not wait to hear the amp. Mid Jan. it will be done. Whats your thought on the my dads 60yrs AR-XA with the AT214S. Does the Cartridge work with AR-XA is my Question if you dont mind me asking.

[@neandrewthal]

Glad I'm not the only one who can't hear a difference.

all I want is a cart that can play back the LP in it's intended frequency range. If I want lower mid range I will turn the knob.

[@TheChianello]

I prefer the F Gyge , I hear slightly clearer transient response in the upper mid-range.

[@Outpost1977]

Sound is almost identical, i listened to it with good headphones. The Black is much more expensive than the FG, which is also still available on Ebay.So the choice for me wouldn't be too difficult...

[@yungpepe]

If you're buying from Ebay the Black is much more reasonable. Still ~150-250 bucks more, but much better than paying 800+.

[@BenjaminJGold]

I kinda prefer the sound of the Gyger myself. I like thinning down 250hz for some odd reason. LOL

[@HiFisquarepants]

Benjamin Gold It has been quite a long time since I last used this weird combination but coincidentally I went back to it the other day and...I love it! :) I'll most likely make a video with this combo soon :)

[@enjoyingmylife]

Interestingly, I heard a significant difference in low mid or upper bass (a richness) in favor of the OM40 when listening on my relatively cheap PC speakers (HK Soundsticks with 2.1 system), but couldn't hear any difference at all using my Beyer DT 990 Pro headphones. Any idea why?

[@Drivehead103]

I prefer my 2m black over the Fitz Geiger 40 I have. Quite a bit of difference between the two. When I use the 2m black it sounds like I have a new amplifier.... Everything is bigger and more detailed. Audio-Technica 440 MLB is another fine cartridge also and destroys sibilance better than any of the others I have mentioned, wish I could combine it with the 2m black!!! Thinking about trying sound Smith or another Audio-Technica.

[@ateliermediomusic4890]

Crazy, when people say there is no difference. There is a difference between there is no difference or I can't hear a difference. :D

[@daleclark4160]

I would find it interesting using the black stylus on a 2M blue body and see how much difference the internal wiring/motor of the actual cartridge has between the two lines.

[@HiFisquarepants]

I did that some years ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/paPaapdubL6Ejqs

[@felixfranzen7578]

Cool. I'm about to do the same thing. I just bought a mint SL-1210MK2 (made in 1989). It came with a 2M Blue and a Black stylus should make for a nice upgrade. Some say you can't or shouldn't do that and that you need to buy a full 2M Bronze or Black (mainly Ortofon themselves for obvious reasons). The claim is that a Blue cartridge body with a Black stylus won't add up to the same thing as Black on Black (or Bronze) and will not perform as well. But I'm pretty much sure it's bull. I did some research and it looks like all 2M's share the same generator and are like 98% the same. There's some silver plating in Black/Bronze, but that can't possibly make any difference. And the stylus is just the needle in a hunk of plastic. So, a Black stylus on Blue cart should get you the same thing as a full Black, only cheaper. Plus, you don't need to set the cart up and align it all over again (I just hate that, always feels like I'm going to mess something up).

[@ElectoneGuy]

I'm not hearing any difference.

[@bristolfashion4421]

That is because it all snake oil and other utter gubbins, innit.

[@bristolfashion4421]

Pointless twaddle wherein live The Aut and The Pedant. It no coincidence that all “audiophiles” are men. Trainspotters. Weirdos and Anoraks. Deadly dull and ultimately, irrelevant…

[@kevinatkab5219]

Interesting comments on Shibata attributes. Truth is the FG70 offers a finer and longer line of contact. which translates into more detail for the FG70 not the other way around. The bass differences are most likely due to the differences in compliance. the Shibata is lower, therefore transmits more energy into the suspension. Of course, lower compliance means greater record wear per play. the FG70 is all upside and no downside. I agree that natural reeds or strings would have been better material as it is mostly harmonic overtones that line contact styli accel at.

[@davidjaine5397]

Interesting information Kevin. And your right...woodwinds or strings would be easier to discern the differences. I find doing any comparo, its best to use simple pieces...maybe 3 instruments to get a handle on whats going on...[at least at first.] Its amazing what just focusing on the sound of a cymbal can reveal!

[@SuperNickid]

@HiFisquarepants: it his normal while a record spin, the outter edge sometimes jumps?

[@gamerjunction5335]

Yes, it is pretty common if the records are not stored correctly. That means not vertical. A slight lean, like if the shelf is not full and the records fall over slightly can cause this. Use a bookend if you have to.

[@BenjaminJGold]

What platter mat(s) are you using with the 1200? Looks like cork and rubber?

[@HiFisquarepants]

Benjamin Gold It was a home made multi layered cork mat. Watch this video for more details on the mat: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rouoo5ape5ehn68 Anyway, I've been using the achromat for over a year now :)

[@matereo]

Ortofon used to have VDH and Gyger tips instead of shibata which they formerly used on older designs and claim the first Van den Hul and then Gyger tips were better and more accurate. But then i guess at first the VDH tips became too expensive and hard to acquire so they went with Fritz Gyger instead. And now i believe they tried to narrow down the cost again by applying "fine line" and shibata tips again. It would not surprise me if Ortofons budget maneuvering is what has made it hard for Jico to acquire their SAS and Shibata diamond tips and led to them no longer supplying the SAS stylus anymore.

[@xuser48]

FG's are still in use by Ortofon. And Replicant 100 which is a derivative of the FG.

[@jeffbecker8716]

What model is the Fritz Gyger? I don't see it listed on the 2M list of stylus replacements. Did you do some customization to the cartridge to make it fit?

[@MultiMeschi]

The OM 40 has the Fritz Gyger needle cut. OM needles seem to fit on the 2M cartridge.

[@crosleyfiver8686]

Can't Miss that it is the APP! Great sounding

[@johnbravo7542]

The Gyger was slightly better,it seemed to be more open,airier

[@ChicoFagundes78]

I agree

[@socksumi]

I'll wager the OM stylus is a hell of a lot cheaper because it's not got the marketing hype of the 2M stylus. 2M styli are OM styli with fancy jackets and a 50% to 100% jacked up price.

[@redangel73]

Is it possilble to set 2M stylus on the OM cartridge?

[@HiFisquarepants]

You need to do this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGGnZIB8nKd9r80

[@Captain_Nightspore]

I hear no difference through a Meridian Explorer 2->Audio Research VSi60-> floor-standing Green Mountain Audio Continuums (time-aligned design, similar to Wilson Audio Sabrinas) , or on my iMac with Emotiva powered drivers and another Meridian Explorer 2. It sounds great either way.

[@guygamps]

This is really interesting, but quick question....@HIFisquarepants, have you captured the 2 as hi res WAV/FLAC files so they can be auditioned without going through KZbin? I beleive KZbin is using AAC compression on the audio, I do know AAC is not too shabby, compared with MP3 its good, but for critical evaluation it would be really interesting to be able to playback 24bit 96khz wav or flac files lifted straight off your phonostage without using youtube. Ive done this to share recordings off my turntable rig (privately) with experts to help get the best out of VTF and VTA settings. Just a thought, keep up the great work

[@joverstreet24]

what's the name of this piece of music playing?

[@prperkes]

I ordered a Quintet Black (w/ Shibata stylus) but it was on back order for a long time. My salesman offered me a good deal on a Cadenza Red (which was in stock). I asked if I could get the same deal on a Blue (w/ Fritz Gyger stylus) and he made me an even better deal so I got the Cadenza Blue. I have had the cartridge for a couple of weeks now and I am delighted with it. I am disabled and retired so I can just sit and play records all day long so I have had a lot of listening with the Cadenza Blue. This video has convinced me that I made the right decision, insomuch as the difference between the two styli is very, very small, and the Cadenza line is much better than the Quintet. (I couldn't quite afford the Cadenza Black...)

[@HiFisquarepants]

Glad to know this video is useful ;)

[@jeffbellin8224]

The ensemble horns or synthesizer, whatever is after the sax solo, has more separation on top with the Shibata. Listen to the top of the notes.

[@mayhemresurrection]

what's the name of the song and the artist. it's beautiful the sound. But honestly can't make out the difference

[@hifispongebob]

Clayton Rana 🐸 Pipeline by The Alan Parsons Project :)

[@mayhemresurrection]

HiFispongebob Thank you

[@leon9021]

No difference. Thought the Fritz would be better at tracking in general it has no sound signature. Its the entire assembly that has a signature not just styli.

[@alanmaier]

I can only note a difference in the cymbals - and I'm honestly had pressed to say which one I like better. Almost a slight frequency response variance at around 10KHz. The sort of minor variation that phono loading would cause if the bodies were not the same.

[@richardsoffice9176]

I read alot about hi fi equipment before I made purchases. I decided to buy Shure cartridges because of 'trackability' (compliance). to Shure V-15, three & four. You mentioned cymbals. Years ago, I wanted to tape Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On" for a dance class. I had one of his greatest hits L P's, and while I really like his music, this is not one of my favorites. So this track was new. I had a linear tracking Sony turntable with a Shure V-15 three, or four. If you're familiar with this track, it was a big hit. At the beginning, there are 3 wah wah type guitar notes, then a loud cymbal crash, by itself. For the first time, I heard the cymbal AS a cymbal, the detail, realistically, and not just a high frequency mush.

[@ninjabluewings]

Well to be totally honest I cannot tell but there probably is a TINY DIFFERENCE! and I mean TINY, if using good headphones i could probably tell the difference coz my ears can hear a pin drop 20 miles away but I as my name is not "Rothchild" I cannot afford decent headphones. I also think when it comes to Hi-Fi audiophiles it can become absolutely ludicrous the lengths people will go to and the obscene amount of money they will gladly spend just to hear a difference that probably is only detectable when connected to high sensitivity audio testing equipment. having said that the sound quality from all of your videos is nothing short of INCREDIBLE! but how on earth can you afford such a huge collection of luxury cartridges 🤔

[@utub1473]

I prefer the Shibata honestly.

[@owlnswan4016]

The FG stylus blows it away. I don't see the appeal of the sound of a Shibata...in my experience, they bring an overly rounded haze into the sound.

[@TD402dd]

You go with the Shibata because it can find high details no other stylus seems able to find.

[@QoraxAudio]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Shibata was invented for use on quadraphonic cartridges, but is mostly used on stereo cartridges for both reduced IGD and wear.

[@vinylchallenge5572]

just go for the snare: more energy and punch with the .... the synthlines also show more Information with in the .... , i would say, not too difficult to explore.

[@utub1473]

The soundstage is a little wider on the black, and it feels more immersive. That's about it.

[@paulturner3553]

Not any real difference between the 2. I use vintage Shure and Audio Technica carts which track between 1-1.4 grams which is lighter than most of the carts I see on the market these days.

[@Fotojensen]

Same same.... in my opinion, same needle on different pickup

[@roycspary8923]

no point just playing us music without comments. whatever microphone you are using will alter the sound more than the stylus, change, yes I know you will have used the same mike but it still means we have little idea what we are listening to, then there is all the you tube compression and processing, then there is the fact that my antique computer has horrible sound, as do most computers, so zero chance of discerning anything, so please include some comentary

[@arminm6527]

Fritz Gyger sounds more dynamical, beter sound stage.

[@feliscorax]

Yeah, I would agree with that, actually. I've just finished listening to this through a pair of Sennheiser HD 598s plugged into a Cambridge Audio CXA 81 amplifier (very musical), and the Fritz Gyger sounds airier. Mind you, it's such a tiny difference between the two that I really suspect the sound difference also depends upon the rest of the equipment and the all-important pair of ears doing the listening. When it really comes down to it, I would not be bothered if my stylus was a Shibata or a Fritz Gyger, so I think budget should be the only determining factor in preference. Most people tend to hear what they want to hear, anyway.

[@music9556]

fritz is better because of the less mass of plastic around the stylus cantilever.

[@petr8068]

SH...more compact and relaxing sound.

[@andreasleonlandgren3092]

There is no need to select 720 it better the picture not the sound.

[@MusicLover-01]

FG no contest for me. 2M black sounds boring in comparison, too smooth slightly lifeless with rolled off highs...

[@scottstrang1583]

I like the concord one better.

[@tg6373]

Shibata for me

[@tg6373]

Okay, I'm undecided now.

[@farhadb.5172]

Both are equally good

[@xuser48]

The FG stylus sounds more powerful than the Shibata.

[@auris8789]

distortions in right chanel

[@bryede]

It's a noisy pressing. I had a hard time finding a copy of Ammonia Avenue that was not pressed off-center.

[@IlMortadella]

Shibata

[@DetroitButcher]

I have golden ears, and I don't hear any difference. Cheers anyway though.

[@johnbravo7542]

Tony Romanov,I guess your ears aren't as golden as you think

[@pipilangstrumpf7076]

John Bravo means saving money...

[@IlMortadella]

honestly NO difference

[@mikejohnson7696]

Not a good idea to use highly highly processed music for tests. Parsons uses many many layers of recording, like doubling till u have 1000 saxophones. No natural tone left. & a techniques isn't a good table.

[@robertarmstrong6015]

No discernible difference.

[@vynleshmynle7372]

Sound the same, as an upgrade to these, go with Nagaoka MP-110

[@bunkelops]

LOL!!!! Not even in the same league cheap ass.

[@vinylcity1599]

more details in the ortafan, wider dynamics

[@junglejamesie]

They are both Ortofon stylii.....

[@johnbravo7542]

Vinyl City the ortafan hahaha

[@peterconstantino6651]

Oh yeah! I'm going to tell the difference between stylus tips, seriously, something that literally minute, via a recording on KZbin. You guys must have something really wonky besides brains happening in your heads! And using pop music. Really man!

[@davidjaine5397]

The human ear is an amazing piece of equipment!