Shooting DAMAGED Lenses - What's The Worst That Could Happen?

Can you shoot a vintage lens with damage and faults like dust, fungus and scratches?
Will they give a useable image, or are they just fit for the scrapheap?
Sometimes vintage lenses collect faults and damage over the years, but some will let you carry on shooting, while others need immediate repair.
Check out the video to find out which is which!
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Thanks for watching!

[@Photovintageguy]

Just bought a Minolta 45mm f2 it ended up having a bit fungus. I told the ebay seller he gave me a big discount. I found out this model is very easy to fix. It’s just a few screws. You can even reach the back lens group from the front. I pulled out the front group cleaned with 50/50 peroxide and water. Removed all dust then removed all the haze from both lens groups. Using 70% alcohol on a cleaning cloth. Now it’s the best md 45mm f2 own of several. Great lens now this one is crazy clear and dust free. I would say that pancake is the best everyday carry md lens.

[@otisjordan5613]

Is there a source for a guide for this specific lens? Mine has quite a lot of dust and haze inside and I'd really like to clean it up.

[@ovamata]

I own a beautiful and quite rare Olympus OM Zuiko 18mm. However, similarly to your Flektogon, the glass has many, many micro scratches. The result is a slightly hazy image, and loss of contrast - but I've found in the right situations, the imperfections enhance the vintage effect and give it quite an interesting, dreamy 'film' look.

[@chriss5675]

Would love to see you polish out the scratches and be able to see what difference it makes to the image.

[@osliverpool]

Some of the old Soviet lenses had quite soft glass, and suffered from tiny scratches from hard cleaning. Looking forward to see how the polishing of the Flektogon goes - would definitely love to see that.

[@atf2940]

I am quite happy to buy lenses with fungus, if the price is right. A lense catches fungus by high humidity, either constant or sudden (e.g. rain). It is usually easy to remove; peroxide and ammonia will help. If allowed to stay on for many years, it may etch the glas or coating. Even then the fungus can be completely removed and the lense _can_ still be usable. Fungus jumping from one lense to another may well be a myth. Fungus spores are everywhere. If the conditions are right, they don't need assistance from a neighbouring lense. -- Haze is more of a lottery. Sometimes it is easy to clean out. But sometimes it just stays put. Then nothing short of repolishing will do, or you use the lense for flattering portraits only.

[@caw25sha]

Yes, please keep us updated on the 20mm. I can't help wondering how it got in that state - wear and tear due to prolonged hard usage or a single accident. I'm also wondering how much a decent quality filter would compensate for the coating being removed.

[@jeremymillen4443]

Very interesting video Nigel. It would be instructive to see you at work, polishing out the scratches, on the front element. Good luck with finding somewhere that can re-coat it too.

[@nickykodak7536]

Lenses cannot be re-coated

[@jeremymillen4443]

@@nickykodak7536 That is factually inaccurate. Lenses can be recoated…and are. There is no theoretical impediment. The problem is that, in practice, very high prices are typically involved. The work tends to be done by a small - and ever diminishing - number of specialist firms who deal only with high ended still camera lenses, such as some Leica ones and those from the cinematic industry. I think that Nigel’s idea of asking an optician chain was an original and very interesting one and am keen to find out how he gets on. Modern coatings tend to be better and more durable than of old, so if an optician took him up on his enquiry there could be an interesting result!

[@nickykodak7536]

@@jeremymillen4443 Inaccurate, eh? Then give Nigel a set of contact details to have it done. Good luck.

[@jeremymillen4443]

@@nickykodak7536 Nigel isn’t looking to have a Leica or cinematic lens recoated at a very high price, as far as I am aware, so I think his idea of approaching an optician is the best one.

[@nickykodak7536]

@@jeremymillen4443 I think you need to consider what you are saying. You are seriously arguing that this lens can have a recoat from an optician that will exactly replace a remove existing camera lens manufacturer's coating. Please don't call people's knowledge "inaccurate" when you are simply guessing and assuming you are correct.

[@Rich4Truth]

Great video! Yes, I would like to see how you polish it! Thanks for the video. I was just looking at cameras on ebay. I don’t have enough of them yet! 😂 When I get enough of them, then I can start buying vintage lenses. Everything I have now is modern. But I’m blind in one eye and can’t see good out of the other one, so it’s hard for me to turn loose of the autofocus. But I will : )

[@Leitz65]

Great to see the Complete repair on the CJ lens would be a shame Not to rescue great German optics. Thanks for your efforts regarding all things related to classic film. Keep us posted.

[@TheeManWIthNoLife]

That new movie Infinity Pool used 1970's cinema lenses with fungus and it makes the movie look really cool and unique!

[@Magnetron692]

Hi Nigel, many thanks! It is much appreciated! One of my lenses developed fungus, I sold it as defective. Apart from that my lenses are in nice condition. And so is my new acquisition, the Minolta MD Rokkor 8.0/100-500 mm. If you so desire, I could send you some images made with it as soon as I have much spare time if you are into super telephoto zoom lenses. Best wishes Ralf

[@barclayjb]

Go for it. I am curious to see if it works. I bought two used lens from my local camera shop for $10 each. One was a Nikkor 28-80 g kit lens. Zoom was very stiff and the aperture was not working. I took it apart. Fixed the aperture, but the zoom mechanism unrepairable. It was a great learning experience and a low cost. The other lens was a 28-70 Nikkor 3.3-4.5 ai and it works great.

[@robmay3570]

I bought a CZJ pancolar 50mm 1.8 very cheaply knowing it had light fungus I striped the back element and treated it and 2 years later still no fungus. I also bought a Fuji xc zoom with damage to the front element which most of the time does not show. I rap all my lenses in tissue paper this is very good at stopping dust and fungus provided it is a dry place. Excellent channel keep up the good work. I would like to see the glass polishing.😊

[@ted356]

Nice to see some vintage lenses finding a new life!

[@petersnow389]

Good morning Nigel, Thank you for another interesting episode. In the case of the 20mm Flektogon, it looks as if a cloth has been used to clean the lens, with dust present on the front element. Dust particles are as hard as diamonds, and cleaning the glass this way will almost be akin to rubbing it with fine grinding paste!.

[@zenography7923]

I guess it could well be that. Whatever it is, it's done the lens no favours!

[@arcanics1971]

Pesky KZbin didn't put your video in my subs feed this week. Despite me being a Patron, and having watched EVERY video. I assumed when I saw no vid that life had got in the way, and you'd had to skip a week. But no, it's just KZbin deciding not to show one of my most watched channels' latest video to me. Grrrr.

[@SoSaMin0524]

Yes please show how you polish the scratches out 😁 Would love to see that 😁 I have a Nikon 35mm F2 ais lens I love and has been well loved…like you purchased it thinking it was in good condition from the seller…it hasn’t stopped me from using the lens to see what I can get out of it…but often wonder about what it would take to clear the scratches from the surface from the front lens 😁

[@campbells0ups]

looking forward to the potential repair results from the Flectagon 20mm f/4 !

[@adrianaspinall1641]

Excellent video. I have a Yashica TLR with haze. I was told, were a fix to be attempted, it would destroy the lens coatings. I am now unsure whether to scrap it or not.

[@MyChevySonic]

I bought a pf rokkor from an estate sale in terrible condition: chipped front element, haze, and fading coating, but luckily only the front. I figured I had nothing to lose, so I sanded and polished the front element clean as i could and coated it with some auto ceramic. It takes clean, sharp pictures now. While i can't say whether or not it's as good as in its prime (lol), it still takes stunning photos now at 1.4.

[@TristanColgate]

I got a 20mm f/3.5 for my pen fv, 28mm equiv. It's a funky little lens. I got it /relatively/ cheap, as it was listed as having a bit of haze. I've pulled it apart, but it seems like it is between two glued elements that I can't separate. From what I can tell, it's not too bad, unless shooting toward the sun, that seems to drop the contrast quite a bit. Right now the main thing stopping me using it is just my knowledge that that haze is there.

[@philipjooste5688]

Very Interesting, some time ago I bought a Nikon 24mm f2.8 ais lens for cheap - a lens known for it's sharpness corner to corner even at F2.8 due to the CRC elements. The seller did point out the front element scratches though - so I took a chance and bought the lens anyway. The scratches looked like cleaning marks or the front lens cap could have fallen off while in a camera bag, rubbing against something abrasive. I tested the lens on a full frame 24mp dslr and found that the lens works great from f2.8 - 5.6. However, starting at f8 and stopped down further the lens develops a lower contrast spot around the lower right crossing of rule of thirds. The great thing about this 24mm is that infinity focus starts at 5 meters, so at f5.6 you have reasonable sharpness corner to corner from apprx 2 meters away to infinity, hence very little need to stop down further. Still a great lens if you work around the limitations. Regards

[@theoldunsshot1005]

Interesting! When I had my first SLR, a Zenit EM, I bought an Optomax 135/2.8. It wasn't great but it was good enough for a novice user. Some lens care things I have gleaned from "experts" is that letting daylight get to stored lenses can prevent the spread of fungus because it doesn't thrive in UV light. I was told that the nearer to a rear element that fungus and other nasties occur, the worse the effect on image quality. Those "facts" came from an internet forum, so I can't confirm the accuracy. When it comes to polishing scratches out of glass I do have some experience, as I was a Glass Decorator in the early part of my working life. Jeweller's Rouge is a gentle abrasive used to do a final polish on glass and precious stones, but it does affect the passage of light through glass and polishing could have an adverse effect on lens performance as the profile of the glass surface could be worn unevenly. How much it would affect the lens I don't know, so I will watch out for your results. Another fascinating video!

[@MitchFlint]

Lens groups can separate in bright, droplet-like transparent spots. Fungus I've seen is usually fuzzy or hazy, light gray. (Goodness knows what it lives on!) One of the most interesting factory defects I had was in the taking lens of a Yashica Mat LM, which had tiny, nearly microscopic bubbles in the glass of its front element. But man, that lens produced some really nice tones!

[@nickykodak7536]

Glass bubbles in any composite lens make no difference to image quality. Try blobbing a 0.5mm pen dot on the front glass of any lens and seeing if you can see it on any image. Do the test with a friend so you don't convince yourself of what is fact and what is imagination. Composite lenses do not register tiny circular marks like dust specs or bubbles unless they are huge items or huge clusters of small things.

[@sidekickbob7227]

The fungus is supposed to live on the oil.

[@northstar1950]

AHHHH fungus! You must immediately encase the lens in about a foot of concrete. Keep it at least six miles from your other lenses and place blue flashing lights around it too. Ideally inform the local police, the Pope and the Leader of the Church of England. I was going to suggest Sunak to but He's busy making money.

[@philhodgkinson1460]

Nice video Nigel.... I got that Optomax I did get a pal to look at it I think maybe fungus and oily blades etc.... Yeh do a vid pls on the 20mm CZJ that would be good.... Cheers man....

[@Jennifer_Prentice]

YES I want to see the polishing .. :)

[@michaelmiller641]

I have a canon 17mm f4 which I bought when doing photography for an architectural practice. When riding in the tube, the face of the lens got scratched, not badly, but I imagine it may have lowered the contrast. It was an expensive lens like your biogon, so I was somewhat distressed. So I will be watching with some interest your experiments with glass grinding! Also, when working as a photographic technician for a uni I successfully repaired a dented Nikon lens, only to be told that I needn't have bothered as they would just buy a new one . Thanks for your videos really interesting.

[@Foxglove963]

Doing yourself glass grinding is useless, you'll never obtain the superb quality of a Ross or Dallmeyer.

[@nevillewatkins4997]

I'd like to see how you get on with the polishing. As long as it's nice and even I'm sure you'll get a result of some kind. Be interesting to see.

[@geoffreystone1598]

The angry photographer suggested a method of killing fungus in lenses. This involved cooper coins heated in a bag with the lens added.

[@fredyellowsnow7492]

For one deep scratch used a fine felt-tip pen to black it out and never noticed the scratch on shooting it afterwards.

[@anonyymi4782]

I had Canon fd 24mm f2 with ruined front element. I tried to polish it. I even made a mould from thermal plastic to maintain original curvature during grinding. Well... glass is hard and those scratches were too deep for cerium-based polishing with low rmp. After couple of vain hours I managed to drop lens on hard surface and broke the damn thing. Then I thought that it was basically just a normal positive meniscus lens just like easily available close up lenses in variety of diameters and coatings. 160 mm focal lenght aka a tad under +6 diopters was a tricky number to match, but I made a wild guess and uv-glued 3mm too small +4 lens in place of original element and screwed another +2 close up lens on filter threads to match the original lens. I don't know if I were somehow especially lucky, but that worked out very well optically speaking. Sharp as before, but without haze. You seem to have this option too according to optical diagram. So, before you break up your flektogon's front element, just measure it's focal lenght and diameter and you still have one shot left to make it work with peanuts. To get your infinity focus without working on focusing mechanism just remember the new element's diopter can go over the original lens but not under.

[@matthiasaronjonsson3066]

I would gladly watch a refurbishing video about your CZJ Flektogon. As far as I know none of my lenses have fungus or much dust. There seems to be tiny metal flakes on the glass of my 135 DC Nikkor and my MOG Primoplan 75 (one tiny flake in each lens) and my old Leitz Summicron 50mm has a tiny bit of hairline scratches on the front element (does not degrade the image as far as I can see.

[@kruno7150]

yes, for some time i'm buying "for parts or repair" lenses and it is safe to say that more than 80% are repairable. Didn't dare (yet) with glass polishing but I have few 44-2's waiting for just that :) re-coating seems to be interesting idea

[@markwalker8374]

I went to Brempton Cliffs to photograph gannets with my Panasonic GH4 and 100-300mm. After some time, in the strong breeze, I started to notice a few tiny white flecks on my navy blue jacket, then it happened, my unprotected lens copped a large glob of bird poo. Cleaned it off and discovered that some of the coating had been stripped away but it didn't seem to affect the photos much. Lucky it wasn't an expensive lens.

[@zenography7923]

Gosh, that's some corrosive poo!

[@aperture8usa66]

Lenses that have those kinds of fine scratches probably acquired them from being used at the beach. Protective filters must be applied when shooting in a windy, sandy environment, or kiss your front element goodbye.

[@DrAgan_tortojed]

In reasonable amounts, either the fungus or dust inside the lenses should not be (a major) problem - it will add a little "softness" to your photos, and, ironically, it might even make photos looking better. The thing is, there is practically NO LENS in this world that is fungus free and dust free. What IS certainly the major problem are different types of mechanical malfunctioning: wobbling of the (loosen) inner tubes, dis-functional aperture mechanisms, damaged lens's mount (bayonet), damaged electronics...

[@perin99]

I would be very interested to see how you get on with the CZJ. Even if it's a total disaster I'm sure that it will still be worth more than the £50 you paid for it.

[@nickykodak7536]

Errrrr...oh no it really will not be!

[@nickykodak7536]

What many people say is "fungus" is often simply internal condensation or accumulated muck that can be cleaned off with simple liquid spectacle cleaning fluid and non-abrasive tissue or cloth. Real fungus - the spiderweb stuff - often comes off with the same gear. However "polishing" with anything abrasive - from cerium oxide to car polish to toothpaste is often more damaging than the actual fungus; especially if the glass is coated. Basically, if it cannot be done with gentle cleaning and little pressure then the lens is as good as it'll ever be.

[@zenography7923]

Check out this week's video if you can - you may be surprised!

[@stephenrasmussen8160]

I you put it in the window to get some sunlight, it will kill the fungus and prevent it from spreading, or so I've heard.

[@nickykodak7536]

This will not work. Most modern windows stop large percentages of UV light that this process requires to work. Use a UV lamp instead, but do not expect miracles as many lens coatings post WW2 reduce UV. Plus you need to know how many days you need to treat it under a lamp. Never repeat what you have read online unless you have tried it for yourself.

[@davidjosephs6476]

Hi Nigel thanks for another great video A friend of mine bought a zorki4 with a Jupiter 8 lens great pictures then I noticed it was full of fungus spreading all over inner front element I stripped and cleaned all fungus pictures still great no difference 😂????

[@nicusorapostol]

Yes i would like ti see the result of adjusting the scratches of your last lens

[@mike-fb4fw]

i have a hexanon 57mm 1.4 that has some fungus in it, but it still works reasonably well with a lens hood and cooperative light

[@user-pq3oq2nq2h]

I would like to see the 20mm polish. I took a 135mm 3.5 Suiko lens apart, cleaned the glass from fungus and dust, put it back together its all fine now. But other lenses I have worked on I've had no luck with removing the glass from the lens for various reasons. I'm really glad I did the 135mm lens its a lovely lens to use, good colours sharp Images from it, I used KZbin to watch people work on lenses then I had a go myself.......

[@katyg3873]

glass polish will get the scratches out. Start gently with a soft clay bar for cars. Then go a step up with a super fine autoglym glass polish, then if that doesn’t work go for the cerium oxide. For polishing glass the pad is key. Use a felt or even denim pad.

[@bri_v]

I had a Canon 70-300 with fungus in it... I was too chicken to try and dismantle it, so I sold it off to a pawn shop that, thankfully, didn't notice... horrible, I know 😆

[@StanNoteboom]

Yes, I would like to watch lens cleaning

[@robstammers7149]

Hi Nigel, regarding fungus, would a high intensity UV light source kill the fungus, and yes would like to see you at work polishing out those scratches and the result after polishing. Regards Rob.

[@Readbetweenthelines1]

Please show us how you polish out the scratches

[@barrycohen311]

Just thinking about fungus. Would it not need oxygen to survive? I wonder if you were to put it into a pure environment of nitrogen or carbon dioxide, with zero oxygen, would it die off? Or else subjecting it to extreme heat? Say backing it in an oven at 170 degrees F for some hours. Of course that would probably ruin and warp the lens anyway. I doubt freezing it would do much good. Soaking it in Isopropyl Alcohol maybe, for several days? Just curious if biologists or scientists would have any recommendations on what might kill it off.

[@sidekickbob7227]

Uv light is the remedy.

[@thegregdavieschannel]

I'm trying to figure out DIY lens coatings. X

[@russellwestproductions]

you've turned me into a Zenographer!! Do you ever shoot on old hasselblad carl zeiss sonnar lenses, planar 90mm f2.8, or the meyer optik trioplan 100mm?

[@zenography7923]

Welcome aboard! I haven't used those lenses but would love to try them.

[@campbells0ups]

small fungus around the edges of lenses generally doesnt degrade the image quality. from my own experience

[@MyChevySonic]

If you're shooting with aps-c or 4/3 even less so. If you barely or don't see it on FF, it shouldn't show up at all on crop.

[@davidbraun6568]

One of the worst for me is Palinar Telephoto 1:3.5 f=135mm a preset lens that came with a Praktica LB with Domiplan, so the lens is a free bonus in the bag. Unfortunatly it has a big semicircle of haze. Wonder if it could be cleaned.

[@rpgbb]

I have problems to focus with a Jupiter 8. Maybe the Zorki 4 camera is not properly calibrated?

[@jackmckechnie6705]

Ultroviolet light will kill the fungus...take off the front and the back cap so the light can shine through it and let that crap soak in it for hours and chances are the fungus will be dead. Just watch it because it could cause a fire if your not careful! I had a badly eaten up Pentax lens that it did a great job on!

[@bentwhite]

I have a UV-C light that I used to shine through a fungus lens. Seems to have stop the growth.

[@mikemcgrath5188]

I keep my gear in plastic boxes that have desiccant silica gel packs in them. also, older lenses benefit from lens hoods. my philosophy is buy a nice clean old lens for extra bux. i used to work for a famous german lens repair shop. i seen old lenses completely fogged up. we had special tools and old timers that knew all the disassembly tricks. they repaired such items at high prices. if anyone wants to do it yourself lens repairs buy two so you can screw one up while learning.

[@campyonlyguy]

Great info! Is there a danger that fungus can spread from lens to lens if an affected lens is stored with others that are not?

[@campyonlyguy]

Hit the comments button too soon! Thanks for confirming the danger of storing fungus-affected lenses!

[@zenography7923]

Some say yes, some say no. Personally I wouldn't store an infected lens anywhere near clean ones!

[@Skipsul]

Please do let us know if the polishing works, or if you can get good work out of an optician. I have that same CZJ Flecktogon (Exaka mount), and love it, but like yours its front element has been a wee bit abused. I've heard car window coatings like RainX are a good last-ditch coating for badly scratched front elements, but I've only tried it on some cheap old beaters so far - not going to chance it yet on an actually good lens.

[@nickykodak7536]

It's not wise to repeat what you have read online unless you have first tried out what you have read for yourself!

[@jasonbalenweddingfilm3749]

any wide angle lens, dust fungus and scratches will affect and sometime visible. 50mm and above dust and scratches wont be visible

[@TheNitebinder]

Interesting #video you've done here.The photos at 4:06 look ok, not bad for a fungus ridden lens. Do you often purchase that dream lens which looks great on eBay, but get it home and turns into a nightmare? Worse, does a fungus ridden lens overtime, infects the camera?

[@antonio270156]

I hear that leaving the lenses under direct strong sunlight can kill a lot of fungi, because they contains a lot of UV. Have you tried that?

[@rpgbb]

Oh I’m looking forward for the Nuclear Option! ☢️

[@shedtime_au]

You can halt the progress of fungus by treating the lens with a UV lamp. It won't get rid of what's there but will stop it from growing any further.

[@Foxglove963]

Let the lens sit in the sunlight for two hours. Sunlight is the richest source of UV light and it's free. The fungus is impossible to remove as it etches into the glass.

[@philipjooste5688]

I wonder whether by fitting a multicoated uv filter on the front of the 20mm after polishing the front element would somehow make up for the loss of polished away coatings. Regards

[@zenography7923]

That was my first thought, then I realised that the damaged surface is still there and will do just the same with the light that comes through the filter. But check out this week's episode for a successful repair!

[@Skipsul]

One other issue that came to mind: balsam separation between elements glued together. That's another one that's hard to rectify.

[@mikemcgrath5188]

heat up and repress, seen old timers do it all the time.

[@unbroken1010]

Put in a zip lock bag with pennies that have been heated in a dryer. The copper and heat should neutralize some of it.

[@jameswelsh453]

I'm lead to beleive that if you put the lens in sunlight for a few weeks with the bottom cap on for safety, it will kill the fungus!

[@unbroken1010]

Zenography goes anarchist 😂 I'm all in.

[@killpop8255]

Not keen on bringing the type of fungus that would grow inside a lens into the house.

[@killpop8255]

Would you try Indian Ink first on the chipped lens?

[@zenography7923]

I haven't heard of that solution - does it work?

[@sclogse1]

What inner temperature in a lens kills fungus?

[@Photovintageguy]

Probably better to use a germicidal uv lamp on it . heat will just melt the oils in the lens. Germicidal lamps can damage you eyes do don’t view them do it a box. Better is to disassemble and use water/peroxide mix then let dry before replacing.

[@suryamahendra20]

i went for holiday for 2 months and left my old lenses at home... then the fungus start to show :( . I think i have to buy the dry box

[@piszczyk]

My sad story with a broken lens is Kodak Retina with Rodenstock Heligon. There were two "bubbles" between front glases (which are glued together). I tried every method to fix it that I found on the internet. And the lens was getting worse with each attempt... Now it's good enough to be exhibit on a shelf 😕

[@sidekickbob7227]

I havd had success with first taking the glasses apart, cleankng them, and then regluing the glasses toghether with canada balsam.

[@piszczyk]

​@@sidekickbob7227 Well, the problem is that I can't separate them...

[@jimgraves4197]

You can stop the spread of fungus with a UV light in a box, UV Light kills it, but doesn't remove it. The lens really needs a strip and a deep clean to remove it.

[@alan-sk7ky]

Evening all. Go and have a search for ' kurt munger + dirty lens article ' you'll not worry to much about cleaning or having a 1b on the front... ;-)

[@sclogse1]

A Sears Auto 50mm 1.4 highly touted by the ebay seller was just purchased yesterday by me No this, no that, everything turns and clicks smooth. Then AFTER paying he says he sees a dot of fungus on the rear element. Well, we know it ain't on the outside. I wish those lens remover rubber cups in a set weren't so much money...

[@perin99]

I've got one with the same problem. The rear group is of the type that isn't easily taken apart so I killed further growth with UV, shot it as is and have made some lovely photos with it. If you got yours for a reasonable price it's worth keeping.

[@sidekickbob7227]

Find a drinkinglass with the right diameter. Then apply some "blue tack" to the rim of the glass. Works like a charm, as long as the ring isn't unusually hard stuck.

[@DJBastor]

Can fungus spread to nearby lenses?

[@zenography7923]

As I understand it, yes.

[@DJBastor]

@@zenography7923 Thx for your reply

[@philipslighting8240]

I would rather have a Takumar with fungus than an optomax with fungus.

[@nigelprice4799]

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.....sorry, couldn't resist

[@philipslighting8240]

@@nigelprice4799 Sounds like you had both.

[@jimcarnes5885]

you sound and look very high , . . . almost to the point of completely ripped . . . . .

[@zenography7923]

Not quite sure why that would be!