Shooting Groups: Hornady vs Erik Cortina

[@sandybarnett7502]

Your group will never be smaller than your first two shots

[@SpudOutdoors]

20 shots hmmm induce heat. When I hunt I plan on shooting one. If my 2 or 3 shot group is quarter all the time then my 1 shot will hit my mark.

[@hopefulballistics]

Yep! Thanks for watching!

[@billclifton8400]

Those best F class shooters in the world are also not using Hornady bullets either 😂

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

Well, it’s June 2023 now and it is very interesting to note that Erik Cortina is now reporting that he doesn’t exhaustively ladder test seat depth anymore to tune his rifle… he has settled on a constant seat depth and he tunes his rifle with a barrel tuner only… Well now that’s interesting… especially considering that he just won two major F-class championships.

[@derekyates43]

No need in seating depth adjustments with tuner thats what it does is tunes the harmonics like seating depth does

[@SpudOutdoors]

If my 2nd shot is no where close to my first shot then that seating depth is done. Moving on.

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

I recently thoroughly cleaned the bores of all of my rifles… took them to the range and the first cold clean bore rounds grouped with the rest of the rounds just fine without a fouler. That was nice to see. I am going to worry less about fouling shots accordingly in my huting rifles… They maintain minute of moose accuracy even after cleaning.

[@hopefulballistics]

Good to hear

[@davidreed6779]

You finally hit the nail on the head. Can you hit what you're aiming at with the first two or three shots out of a cold barrel.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

My 1 shot groups can't be beat!

[@hopefulballistics]

🤣

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

People are getting their panties in a knot over group size and “flyers” way too much… The fact that shot dispersion follows a statistical normal distribution is an undeniable fact. The fact that it takes a sample size above a minimum amount for a statistical analysis of data to achieve statistical significance is also an undeniable fact. Learning such facts is beneficial only if you are 1) capable of understanding what it means and 2) capable of figuring out how it applies to your objectives so you can decide what to do about it. Those who cannot manage these 2 things are easy to spot… they show up in the comment sections of videos with misinterpretations that I can only describe as adorable. The good folks at Hornady and Applied Ballistics are doing the shooting community a great service by sharing the results of their large sample size testing.

[@hopefulballistics]

Gathered data being shared is always a plus

[@ronlowney4700]

🤭 For a poor shooter, "dispersion" may not follow a "normal distribution" with a small sample size! 🤣 But, those are the same people that don't practice much and then are the same "Weekend Warriors" that are trying to take shots at game animals from a country mile! ☹ They either don't know any better or just don't care! 😯

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

@@ronlowney4700 I think the majority of hunters are conscientious... but the Yahoo types you describe certainly do exist in all walks of life. People can change too. It is a little worrysome seeing videos on the internet depicting harvesting game at outrageous distances... that might motivate others to try it without being even remotely equipped for it. But... most hunters frown on taking pock shots at game and are quick to point this out in comment sections which is a good thing.

[@ronlowney4700]

🤷‍♂️ I hope so, but it is a real "pet peeve" of mine! 😡

[@JSomerled]

Have you ever priced out a custom rifle? And the builder guarantees an MOA… Some people claim their rifle is a .25 moa just because they’ve shot that group once… but not consistent.. it is about consistency and repeatability over every group.

[@hopefulballistics]

You are correct. It’s all about consistency and repeatability.

[@tacticalmattfoley]

Imagine my shock at Hornady recommending someone shoot more..LOL.

[@hopefulballistics]

Lol

[@gc641]

Hmmmmm…….now I never thought of shooting and letting it cool and shoot again, excellent thought

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for watching!

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

I think your comments on prioritizing first shot precision over multi-shot group size for hunting is very relevant. A big part of the relevance is the fact that the shooter is “cold” not just the bore… Also beneficial is practicing first round hits at long range in a variety of positions that you actually hunt with… positional shooting practice, and shooting under stress are going to net more real benefits in the field than farting out heaps of 100yd groups from the bench. Cheers.

[@ronlowney4700]

🤠 Yes, practicing under "field conditions" is Very Important! I live in the Rocky Mountains and many people forget to adjust their shots for elevation when they are shooting on steep slopes or use their rifle sling properly to help them "steady the rifle" (along with a stable "rest")! Their is nothing wrong with trying to get to know your rifle/load and your "personal shooting tendencies"! However, my "biggest suggestion" is don't take a bad shot - both in the position of the animal and the distance to it! Problem Solved!

[@hopefulballistics]

Yes absolutely!

[@jorgefigueroa7573]

100% well said, as a hunter. I cannot agree more. 95% of the time all What We have is that cold bore single shot and you have to make it count. So definitely depending on your discipline and how you use a rifle makes all the difference in world what your shot placement and group size that works. For me sure I always try as hard as I can to have the best possible, reload and group because when you hunt you have to throw in all the factors that competition shooters rarely experience. Weather condition cold or hot raining outdoors, walking in a swamp, night conditions like for hogs. Your heart beating out of your chest looking at a 10 point buck. Many variables. And now trying to keep it tight

[@hopefulballistics]

Great comment, and we’ll said Jorge!

[@ronlowney4700]

🕵️‍♂️ Everyone has "missed the boat" here in some regard! You are right in trying to make the first shot count! They are wrong in saying that this attention to accuracy doesn't apply to hunters - it does because it helps determine how far you should be shooting at a game animals! 😯 The points that need to be discussed include: 1) How often does a flyer occur and how does that limit the distance of shot that a hunter should be taking at a game animal? 2.) What causes a flyer? 3.) What methodology do you use to break in a barrel? 4.) What methodology do you use to clean your barrel and your definition of cleaning? 5.) What methodologies do you use to perform a ladder test for load development? I would like to elaborate on my methods of these, in taking out the biases of methods, to help people examine the flaws in their methods! However, you made some very good points and I would like to connect those dots a bit more! 👨‍🏫 (continued in next comment):

[@hopefulballistics]

Good comment, I’m curious to hear more

[@richardfitzsimmons5244]

The points of view are all correct or at least valid. I listen to the Hornady podcasts and Eric's videos. I agree with both What I do understand is about the equipment used and how it's used and refined as to its application and making it work. And That makes a lot of the difference. Shooting in a controlled atmosphere is one thing. Working in the wind and outdoor atmosphere is an art. And some are very good at it.

[@hopefulballistics]

Very well said

[@codyway7424]

Food for thought. Check out Carlos Hathcock's method for zeroing and the one shot kill. Lots to knowledge there. Also, if preparing loads for competition, know the temp of your barrel and how it reacts during a string of fire. As the barrel heats up, does the group open up, or does the point of inpact shift?

[@hopefulballistics]

Good comment

[@rosalindstewart7013]

Don’t over think it, if what your doing works for you, keep doing it

[@hopefulballistics]

Right on

[@123tl]

Eric proves Hornadys point, they say you need hundreds of rounds to prove accuracy. Eric claims he does it in two shot groups. But Eric has shot hundreds if not thousands of two shot groups to get his load development, therefore he uses hundreds of groupings.

[@lazybear236]

The relevant question is the size deviation of flyers and their percentage. So yes 100 shot groups will have more dispersion than 10 or 20. But how big is the average distance

[@hopefulballistics]

You are correct. Also, how practically doesn’t it matter in your application

[@Forumrida38621]

Ya I've done a lot of reloading/testing and 100% seating depth absolutely changes accuracy. It makes sense though for a Hornady rep to push the idea to shoot more rounds.. also just fyi it's pronounced core-teen-a

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks

[@wcsstars10]

Very well said! This is the mindset

[@hopefulballistics]

Thank you! I appreciate you watching and commenting

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 I should also mention the importance of trying to practice under field conditions (elevation, if possible, and wind) and to correct for elevation when shooting on steep slopes out here in the Rocky Mountains! Also, using your sling to help you steady the rifle, trying to find a "natural rest" or using your pack/shooting stick to help you shoot, and only taking shots that give you a clear shot at the vitals and only at the distances that you know you can hit the vitals (which means subtracting about 200 yards from what you can do, consistantly, on a bench)! 😜

[@tomlarue654]

GunBlue 490 says do everything at .020 and you should be good. I’m still trying to learn everything I can before I start reloading so I don’t know much.

[@hopefulballistics]

That’s where I start to. I only adjust it if I’m getting poor accuracy

[@ronlowney4700]

😁 You are not far off in your statement about two shot groups! The way that I conduct a ladder test is similar to what you have observed - where the first two shots may touch and the third one is a flyer! So, what I will do to take the "bias" out of it is as follows: 1.) The first shot will be from a cold barrel (just like hunting) and will be "less fouled" than any follow up shots! So, since I have already explained my 5 shot cleaning regiment - I will take 1 shot with each of the incrementally increased powder loads at a different target for each and then clean the barrel! I will let the barrel cool and repeat the process a second time at each target, in the same order! After documenting the first two shots with each, the 3rd shot will be in reverse order at each different target, unfouled barrel to fouled barrel and note any difference in the results! 2.) After identifying the best prospects, I will come out on another day, take some "Warm up shots", and then repeat the process with the best prospective candidates! 3.) I will seat the bullets at the same distance that you previously said that you do off the lands and any adjustments will be towards touching the lands, with careful attention to pressure signs! Next Comment (My Conclusions):

[@MarcinP2]

Working in video games we get a lot of messages like "you need to fix your accuracy, my M4 shoots 2 inch groups at 100". Of course if you set the dispersion that way the in-game M4 will shoot infinite shots into a full 2 inch circle but that's exactly what people think will happen if they are able to shoot an impressive group once in a blue moon, they chuck the times they shot badly on ammo inconsistency or wind gusts. I would perhaps be interesting what is the widest group your precision rifle is capable of as a definition of its confidence interval. How wide the group can get without aiming errors. What is the losing group size in the competition. Does the 100 group Hornady tester shot have fliers or were the fliers from smaller groups in that larger circle?

[@hopefulballistics]

Good comment, thanks

[@kylemartin832]

I figured out what Hornady is saying a long time ago. I have a very accurate AR with a Larue Stealth barrel. Let's say I shoot 5, 3 shot groups. One of those groups could be .5moa and another lets say 1.25moa. I can't claim my gun shoots .5moa but I do see lots of people do. They'll shoot 5 groups and take the best not the advantage and claim it shoots better than it actually does. I love Eric's podcast but truth is he's on a different level. He's using a 32" barrel that's 2" in diameter, spends a tremendous time tuning his loads and he's a would champion f-class guy to boot. They are both right for different reasons. 👍🙏✌

[@hopefulballistics]

I agree

[@lancmac]

Most excellent

[@hopefulballistics]

Thank you!

[@longshooter457]

Hornady saying seating depth does not affect accuracy proves to me that they haven't got a clue. After all...they only make bullets. What would they know about load development. Erik knows his stuff. They would be wise to listen to him.

[@crawlingrocket116]

They didn't say that. They said that they tried to find nodes of accuracy by changing seating depth by small increments, and couldn't. Whatever differences they saw at first disappeared when sample size was increased. Big changes to seating depth might still make a difference. Like slamming the bullet into the lands vs having a sizeable jump. If you think that's wrong, just make the test and show us the data.

[@denisleblanc4506]

I watched both of the videos and thought like you they both made valid points. I dabbled in pistol competition and hunter rifle class competition. For pistol shooting I would practice at least 2000 rounds before the competition. (Thinking back I probably should have dry fired more often to get the same results.) In the hunter rifle class you had to use your hunting rig with full power loads. I had never shot more than a three shot group with it when developing loads. Not my rig is nowhere near what M. Cortina used. Well at my first match you fired two ten shot strings. As expected my MOA load looked more like a 2 MOA rifle after 10 shots and surprisingly my second string was almost identical to the first one and I won. I still consider my rifle a one MOA rifle with my reloads. Mr Cortina probably starts with what I would call at least a quarter minute rifle. Does it mean M. Cortina always shoots a quarter minute group at 1000 yards even in ideal conditions? I don't think so. He will also see dispersion but because he uses the best components, reloading technique, and really knows how to shoot he will only see a few shots that open his groups to lets just say a half MOA or a little larger. So even he will see some dispersion just maybe not as much as us. My two ten shots strings that measured 2 MOA are technically statistically valid when I combine them. I still define my rifle as a one MOA but know I shouldn't be shooting much more than 300 yards at big animals. If I can shoot MOA from a bench, its probably going to be at least 2 MOA in the field. Once you start shooting more than 300 yards, you are pushing it more than you think. I actually think all my big game shots are probably something like 3 MOA if I'm being honest. But I would never consider my rifle a 3 MOA rifle. The Hornady guys have seen the real dispersion of some pretty good rigs but remember in a 30 shot group they only need a few shots to open up their group to their dispersion values. Thats something like 10% of their shots are what we call flyers. They don't call them that. I look at the odds like the odds of me getting a flyer is in the order of 10% on the bench and probably 20% in the field. So I limit myself to 300 yards and even then it has to be good conditions and a fairly steady rest. When I see hunters willing to take 400 yard shots and more I don't think they ever considered dispersion. They probably shot a gong at 500 yards 4 out of 5 times. In actual hunting conditions they probably would only hit that same gong once if at all at 500 yards. Dispersion can work both ways and if they can get a few shots at a game animal. Chances are they will kill it. A bad shot that "disperses" in the right direction can become a great shot. But that suggests you'll always have a chance at two or three shots. Where I hunt you rarely do and very few hunters can make a shot at 500 yards once the game starts moving.

[@hopefulballistics]

Very well said! Thanks for sharing this and your experience

[@richardfitzsimmons5244]

Both are right. But If Younthink about Eric or F class shooters. They shoot the same loads. through Their equipment for 100s. Of rounds. So yes they realize dispersion factors. Just by repeating over the life of the same found and tested platform over and over. So essentially its the same point of view as hornady. Except that its tweaked with a lot of investment to compete and to acheive that level of precision.

[@docholiday6650]

Hornady didn't do their tests with a 270 Winchester. I can get one hole groups(smaller than quarter MOA) with 100 shots in a row. Nothing beats 270 Winchester!

[@hopefulballistics]

Very impressive! 😂

[@123tl]

Show us the target there mr doc holiday

[@tonycooper4031]

They are both right in their own way. Eric ONLY shoots the very best barrels. He has said that he will discard a barrel if it doesn't shoot .4 or better consistently. Hornady has factory or replaced factory barrels as they shoot them out. Eric's gun, due to his standards is just going to not throw as many fliers as Hornadys guns. For most of us hunters, Hornadys data is our data. This is also why Hornady doesn't see a tuner work. Their barrels and loads are just not precise enough IMO. I agree 2 shot groups are telling me a lot. Because the group cannot get better after the 2nd. If I feel I broke both shots good. And I find I can repeat that load from cold. That's what I roll with. And use my saved money for taxidermy. I do, of course, shoot 3 and 4 shot fast groups for the data.

[@hopefulballistics]

I appreciate the comment

[@SpudOutdoors]

The reason why hornady didn’t see a change in seating depths is because their ammo is terrible. A fine tuned load. When you change the seating depth by .006 or .003 you will see it open and close. I have done this test multiple times and see it performed. Nodes are .006 long.

[@hopefulballistics]

Yeah I agree. The seating depth thing is a confusing one

[@jeffsiewert1258]

How do you know the changes in 3shot group size were caused by changes in seating depth and not just small sample size?

[@SpudOutdoors]

@@jeffsiewert1258 I’ve done enough testing that with good bullets seating 100% affects Harmonics. If it didn’t then tuners wouldn’t work. Hornady bullets are no where consistent so it lives on pure chaos

[@jeffsiewert1258]

So somehow you’ve magically managed to defeat statistical confidence by using small sample sizes? Wow, would have never thought of that!

[@SpudOutdoors]

@@jeffsiewert1258 hornady did their tests with their material and so the results is true to their material. F class has been using Berger and lapua material for a long time and has shown seating depth matters. Hornady can’t make the assumption without performing a test using other materials that is not theirs.

[@Rico11b]

I believe Erik's position over Hornady's position. Erik has to pay money to complete, purchase components, and travel to matches. Erik is LITERALLY putting his money where his mouth is, whereas Hornady is trying to make money by saying you have to shoot more. LOL. I will say this though. If you're a HUNTER and you're only shooting 5 to 7 rounds per season, YOU'RE WRONG!!! You need to practice year round and KNOW your rifle. Regardless of how many game animals you take in the season. As a minimum, you should be shooting a box a month, as a minimum.

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comment

[@rockylavigna5977]

Great video, if shooting Weatherby they will guarantee sub moa with their ammo.Ok when on other weatherby forums and they can't achieve sub moa with their reloads they resort to playing with the seating depth, OK. My question with a Weatherby freebore the factory does not consider this option, Why should I? I do not agree with the dirty gun thing,sorry. A Weatherby will shoot a bullseye with a clean barrel. When breaking in a Weatherby I clean the barrel every three rounds and man do I get the negative remarks at the range. The very thought of letting a weatherby dirty just sends shivers up my spine. We are all different. I have Weatherby since the late eighties its a big bore 300 and shoots dead bullseye clean and I mean a very clean barrel best gun I ever owned; Letting a corrosive compound in a expensive barrel and think it will not operate with a clean barrel just does not make any sense to me when I know this is a very easy way to ruin your gun. This is my experience if you want to hunt with a dirty gun ok me never. Never the less great video Thank you

[@hopefulballistics]

Thank you for your comment and for watching. I’m not saying a rifle won’t shoot clean. In my experience the first shot when clean has a slightly different point of impact than the follow up shots. If you know where the clean bore shot hits and it’s repeatable, there would be no problem. This has been my experience, but I appreciate you sharing yours!

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 What causes a "Flyer" and how often does it occur and under what conditions? You should know the "how often" part by documenting that yourself! What does happen, after the first few shots is that the barrel heats up and expands? When the bullet engages the rifling, it also expands! Horneday actually used a name for that "condition" in answering some of my questions ("Opturate", which is a different expansion rate for monolithic vs. lead core bullets - which will have different "performance/accuracy" results)! So, if the hot barrel bore size shrinks (when it heats up) and the bullet expands, the bullet is getting squeezed through a tighter barrel! That will not produce the same "conditions" (pressures and stability) upon the bullet as it leaves the gun and will effect accuracy! That is why you want to make your first shot count! And, as you eluded to, that is why you want to hunt with a barrel that is slightly fouled! If you document your load and how often you get a flyer and what direction that flyer goes and how far "off" it is - then you can adjust your shots accordingly, as the barrel heats up! As it heats up, the load will shoot faster and you will shoot higher, as the bullet will drop less! So, "get to know your barrel and your load", but always try and make "the first shot count" and "know your shooting limits from this" (both you load and your tendencies to flinch - where will the bullet go and adjust accordingly)! 😜

[@hopefulballistics]

Good information Ron, thanks

[@123tl]

How many shots are you taking while hunting to heat your barrel up.

[@ronlowney4700]

🕵️‍♂️ I do rest my barrel between shots, but the "Cold Barrel" (First Shot) will typically be the "Flyer" of the Group! That is Why it is important to Know Your Gun and Note where that first shot hits! 🎯

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 Let's start at the beginning with a "Clean Barrel"!: 1.) Do you expect Horneday to do the same "barrel break in proceedures" as a competition shooter? I don't! But, that could effect our observed results! Some experienced hunters, like Ron Spomer, don't even believe in "breaking in a barrel at all"! But, I do! An Most Competition Shooters do as well! I will run a patch through a new barrel every shot, for the first five shots, and every 5 shots after that! First, a dry patch, then one with oil, and then a patch or two to remove the oil! I have reduced my use of copper fouling remover and a wire brush over the years, because - like Horneday said - it can reduce barrel life! Do you think Horneday and the Average Competition Shooters have the same cleaning regiment? No they don't! And that could Skew the "observed results" too! Consistancy and Attention to detail is the key here! So, Not only do I believe what the competition shooters observe, I (as a hunter), behave more like them in my barrel "cleaning" routines! Just not as much in using the copper remover solvent, because I want my barrel to last longer than they do! Next Comment (Ladder Testing For A Load):

[@ronlowney4700]

🤔 I agree with your statement about wating until the barrel is "fouled", before load development! After those first 5 shots, I like to use the heaver bullets at slower velocities to "break it in" - to try and give myself a little longer barrel life (operating it at lower pressures) and a more consistent fouling (because a heavier, slower moving bullet moving through the barrel - which has a longer bearing surface - will foul the barrel more "uniformly/completely" and more "gently")! I'm not saying everything that I do will get the exact results that I want, but everything that I do has some thought put behind it! 🤷‍♂️

[@DadWil]

If all you shoot is off the shelf factory ammo none of this applies... however if you load your own ammo listen to what Erik Cortina has to say... I did and closed up my groups considerably... Other people to listen to on load development would be Scott Satterlee, Dan Newberry, & Chis Long If you want to shoot well look at what the good shooters do and do it to the best of your ability

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks Dad Wil! Take care

[@theowenssailingdiary5239]

Ill just tell you a noise that sets me off like no other- noisy swallowing.. I'm a sensitive soul.. Fuck that!

[@hopefulballistics]

Go find another channel

[@clapton924]

Erik's last name is Cor-tina lol

[@hopefulballistics]

My mistake

[@xforce708]

Hunting vs F Class shooting. F Class is going to shoot many shots with heat in the barrel. Hunting, missing is not the plan or the norm and in my more than forty years hunting whitetail I’ve seldom ever taken a second shot at a deer. What have done is shoot a deer only to have another appear that I might take as well. So as a hunter I’m more concerned with one shot from a rifle and ammo that has sat out in the hunting conditions for at least two hours. Also if you shoot five rather quickly and the barrel is heated up and you chamber that fifth round and for whatever reason take a little time breaking that shot you’ve cooked that round. And according to how temp stable your powder is you could be firing your first cartridge at 30*F and your fifth at over 100*F. In short as a hunter I want to trust my rifle on a cold bore shot. I also like to know where it goes on a lightly lubed bore because all of my rifles are not stainless.

[@hopefulballistics]

@@xforce708 well said!

[@larrynevills7648]

"Cortina"... Not "Cortana." Like fingernails-on-a-chalkboard everytime you say "Cortana."

[@hopefulballistics]

I stand corrected. I didn’t know a mispronounced vowel was so irritating