Should Abortions Be Illegal In Singapore? Ft. A Priest | The Daily Ketchup Podcast

Singapore has the most liberal abortion laws in the world. They also have the lowest prevalence of Down syndrome. Coincidence....?
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Cast:
• Johnathan Chua / johnathanchua
• Daniel Lim / danlim11
• Jonathan Paul / jonathanpaul.sxw
• Denise Oh / ohthedenise
Behind the Cam:
• Nashrul Merza
• Julian Chin
• Hisyam Osman
• Daren Khek
• Deborah Lee
Edited by:
Raymond Deoferio

[@eunagiii]

the priest stance on the matter that if the victim of rape aborts the baby, will you forget that the rape has happened/will the trauma still live with you should not be a basis for your decision to abort the child or not. Reliving the trauma everyday for 9 months... JUST to give birth to a baby that you didnt want in the first place is ridiculous. The PTSD that will come with it? If they considered the unborn baby to be a life, then what if the mum commits suicide /because of/ the PTSD that results from carrying the baby? That's 2 lives. I respectfully disagree with the priest. It's not possible to put yourself in the victim's shoes, and to think that that's a decision to be made so easily.

[@cashmerehazel21]

Not to mention the *trauma of childbirth labour and post-natal illnesses??* What about those days that the rape victim needs to go for medical checkups that make her see her own unwanted child on the ultrasound machine, controlling her food intake and diet because of pregnancy, watching out for her own safety, changing her clothing or shoes to prevent falls etc.? There's so much inconvenience both physically and mentally during those 9 months. After birth, there's risk of post-natal depression, osteoporosis, diabetes, hypertension, and did I mention the risk of dying during labour? A woman should be given a chance to "sacrifice" her body for a child she truly wants, and men should not undermine what pregnancies do to a human body that is _used_ to generate another human body.

[@eunagiii]

@@cashmerehazel21 exactly. No womb, no opinion.

[@ryan-co4cu]

@@cashmerehazel21 i agree with u completely

[@TheRealBBFM]

I can understand why John got into a heated discussion with him

[@shysmy19]

@@cashmerehazel21 So you would kill a life just to make your life easier, for the sake of your convenience??? The choice is usually very simple, the life of a literal living creature or your personal mental/physical satisfaction. Obviously only one is the right choice.

[@justrandomotaku]

The panel should have more women discussing their perspectives and experiences. I don't think most men know and understand what women go through with regards to a) birth control b) access to, shame surrounding abortion

[@gordonchild7508]

most of the biggest pro life activists are women. The arguments are the same as these men you speak of.

[@thisulwickramarachchi2380]

Men don't need to know what women go thru... abortion should be illegal...

[@RambutanLaw]

@@thisulwickramarachchi2380 to abort or not, it is not men who have to go through the process or carrying the babies for 9 months. So, I think it is fair to hear more women's opinion on this topic.

[@koon2038]

Appreciate how much contextual info Denise brings to the table every episode, and how she delivers them

[@matt9445]

This show keeps getting better… First time EVER seeing vulgarities used in front of a priest during a discussion…HAHA

[@clairephua7344]

There’s one circular argument that got me quite uncomfortable: If the priest can acknowledge that taking a life is extremely traumatic (particularly for the woman) and its something that many cannot forgive themselves for, then how is abortion an easy out? Its a guilt and trauma that the parents have to carry for the rest of their lives for their irresponsible action of having unprotected sex. On top of that, its also the risk of the mother’s loss of ability to carry a child again, the risk that the mother is put in during the abortion. To think that abortion is an easy out that allow teenagers to have unprotected sex without consequences is to undermine the risk, danger and effects that abortion has on a mother, both physically and mentally.

[@Brainiac5]

yup, easier said when guys dont have to go through the physical pain.

[@moreover1238]

Procedurally, abortion is not the easy way out. Post op wise too. There are risks… I had a D&C done on me. So I would know. With that.. I agree with u. But the priest was not talking about the risks and guilt as easy way out… u got it out of context. He was saying.. generally, as a whole, from a macro pov.. abortion is viewed as the easy way out as it takes care of the problem (the unwanted pregnancy) quickly.

[@moreover1238]

In fact, if u noticed, through the convo… everyone agrees that the road to abortion is not easy. U have to go through paramount points of guilt or shame either way. But it doesn’t negate why people and society in general still favour abortion right? U don’t have to raise a life that is unwanted. It is factual - easy way out. So priest is correct to say that from society standpoint

[@gordonchild7508]

@@Brainiac5 do note that some of the biggest pro-life activists in the world are actually women. So your statement is just no valid.

[@jessicanicolich1634]

My body my choice

[@veenassa]

I worked with children with down syndrome and their simplicity in this complicated world reminded me that happiness and joy is really not that complicated.

[@sunsetstooearly1125]

Don't attack me, just my 2c. I don't particularly agree with the priest's arguments on: 1) Pro-choice results in people who have unprotected sex knowing that there is 'an easy way out' -This was exactly the same argument people had against the HPV vaccine. By the same logic, should we not provide lung cancer/diabetes treatment on the basis that people will live even more unhealthily/smoke more/have an even worse diet 2) You won't forget the traumatic experience regardless of whether you terminate the pregnancy following a rape -The victim will have to go through 9 months of reliving the traumatic experience all day and all night -> more likely to develop PTSD -If the delivery requires a caesarean -> permanent scar that will forever remind the victim of the trauma -Furthermore, carrying a foetus to term has its own set of consequences. a) Risk of maternal death b) Risk of serious consequences such as pre-eclampsia and seizures 3) Society should aim to be more inclusive and provide support to people with disabilities instead of termination of pregnancy -Then shouldn't these laws aiming to support women/the disadvantaged/people with disabilities be passed first before making terminations illegal

[@wheyprotein4266]

Thank you!! Just wanted to add: 14:52 The priest mentioned "Are we training a generation to say I can just do and don't think about the consequence?" -- But the priest literally agreed that the process of abortion is "mental torture". Shouldn't that be enough of a consequence? If it's mental torture, how is it an easy way out? 15:40 The priest mentioned that society should be more helpful to the poor and marginalised. -- But its funny because historically it's the religious people who marginalise minorities. 15:50 The priest mentioned that this will lead to a path where we basically breed only the very best gene pool. -- But he is making a slippery slope fallacy. We just want people to have a choice. We do not need people to do organic gene selection.

[@rachelclaudia679]

The priest also mentioned that there’s a better alternative where the girl could choose the option of adoption and that many childless couples are waiting for a child. However, does he not think that that choice might be more harmful and torturous for the girl as she might know that something with her DNA is living on the same planet and that might be more mentally harmful to her than just aborting it. If she kills herself through suicide, that would mean that the unborn baby will die as well. I think having this discussion will immediately choose the side of the unborn baby instead of the living mother

[@hazelinng6746]

As they said gene selection is already happening. Sooner or later, these terms would come into play. I guess some would argue, those terms shouldn’t be allowed but then again some would argue it’s “Pro choice” @whey protein

[@SaltyFishXD]

IMO, unprotected sex is an active choice whereas diseases such as cancer and diabetes is not an active decision, in most cases these diseases are genetically inherited. Regardless of a cure/easy way out for such diseases, people still still choose to live unhealthy knowingly or unknowingly. Talking about the vaccine, i also agree that it would promote an "easy way out" but the same logic wouldn't rly work on diseases that NOBODY wished for and get it. Whereas unprotected sex is entirely avoidable through choice unless raped. Iff raped then it wouldn't rly be an "easy way out" since such choice wasn't given a thought of by the victim before the rape. There are many very healthy people who still get cancers etc. I say again it is my opinion, but people still take unprotected sex so lightly because we don't consider the repercussions until it hits us, and boy when it does, it hits HARD. So.. it is an active choice but most are uneducated or oblivious to the repercussions. It's a tough dilemma with so many to account for. Best we could do is to strive towards a more educated society together instead of creating a rift and villainizing each other. In the end, no moral problems can be solved completely as we all have our own thoughts and opinions.

[@isabellekiew6557]

@Scrub9090 in majority of cases "mortal danger" is not a clear line. we should not have to wait till the women's life is in absolute danger to decide if the child should be terminated. PTSD doesn't only have mental consequences that you suffer alone. It comes with increased risk of harm to self and others and so I don't think we should trivialise PTSD to a personal ailment... To be pro-life is to be want to make a choice on another women's body and I just don't think we currently have the support systems in place to deal with the consequences of making those choices for women.

[@crystallow2470]

14:59 How in the world is having abortion as an option an "easy way out"? 😐 Abortion comes with its own set of health risks, social stigma, guilt (which has been brought up in this episode) and I wouldn't necessarily say it's "cheap" either. Pretty sure not a lot of people abort for fun/ as an afterthought - this is not something that people do frivolously as an "easy way out". A lot of the pro-life arguments here hinge on whether giving women the choice for abortion would lead to things like people thinking less about protection because they can ~always go have an abortion~ as if it's the simplest thing to do. Also the trauma of rape here is so simplified as if the only thing that is traumatic is the memory of the incident. Please do your research about what various forms of trauma rape survivors have - it's not a matter of "the rape already happened you can't reverse it so the trauma is the same whether you abort or not". Why don't you invite women who have actually gone through abortion or have actually faced a situation in which they had to consider abortion to speak on this issue?

[@paopaokaren]

Agree.

[@jamieheartz]

omg finally a new ep!! i’m so scare y’all are gonna stop doing these podcast videos because i love it so much i binge watch whenever i’m bored

[@JohnathanChuaa]

Thanks leh!

[@Xxxxxxxxxxcxccc]

@@JohnathanChuaa subtitles please

[@heyilikeable]

Abortion should be legal. Childbirth out of rape cases, prostitution, cases where minors are unable to make decisions for themselves, where it threatens the life of the mother and so on, these cases already justify the need for abortion to be legal.

[@jiawei0917]

Those you mentioned are less than 10% of total abortions done. Or even 5%.

[@malcolmwong5510]

Question is does the mother make the choice or is the child’s choice being taken from it?

[@IBCo.]

@@malcolmwong5510 But the question is, what choice is being taken from the child? The choice of being born or the choice of being aborted? Neither abortion or birth were choices made by the child. The same can be said standing from both sides. If I know I'm gonna be birth into a messed up family of drug abusing parents,, violence and hardship, I would rather I was aborted. In this case would I then be able to say that pro-lifers took away my choice of being aborted, and forced me into a life of messed up environment and hardship?

[@operatorlink]

@@malcolmwong5510 it isn't a child yet, most cases of abortion the fetus have not develop a functioning brain for consciousness.

[@asdf56953]

@@malcolmwong5510 or rather, does the child want to be born? Pro life=pro choice. If you don't have choice you have no life.

[@lov5293]

genuinely, this is really not a debate for men to enter. "oh but the father has a say about the baby's life too!" yes, but only after the baby is born. before the baby is born, you provide no physical support for the baby. you're not the one who has to go through downright horrific changes to your body. pregnancy always seems so easy in anti-abortion stances. "just have the baby and let someone else adopt them" - after 9 months of pain, not to mention all the pre and post-natal consequences, plus labour! do you know the kind of long-lasting changes a mother's body has to go through for a child? it's enough to drive a person insane, especially if they never wanted the child. pro-choice is not pro-abortion. abortion is traumatic and painful, and trust me: nobody would go through with an abortion unless they had to. pro-choice allows women to have control over their future. pro-life forces women to carry for 9 months and give birth - you're potentially forcing a child to have a child, if the woman is a teen mom (basically a girl). personally i would never have an abortion if it was an accidental pregnancy from consensual sex, not rape. but there is zero reason why any other woman shouldn't have access to it. religious people need to know their boundaries. your scripture goes as far as the people who believe in it. you do not have the right to force others to follow your ways. also, i do not believe that human 'life' begins at conception, with the definition that life means being conscious. a pre 24week fetus has no feelings, no virtues, no morals. it is not aware of pain. it has no choice - it is not defenceless, it simply has no defence. if you let the fetus choose whether it wants to be aborted, it can't because it does not have the mental capacity to do so - it literally has no stance. as far as being human means, it isn't a human yet. talking about its potential to become a human is a pointless argument. at that moment, when the woman chooses an abortion, it isn't a human, simple as that.

[@drwtng]

Just on the sub-portion regarding birth defects: As a father of a "high support requirement" special needs child, IMHO, a couple that has not raised a special needs child before often doesnt have enough information, at the point of pregnancy, to make an informed decision.

[@TOMtheLui]

The issue with abortion is quite simple at least in my humble opinion. When is a life? Brainwaves. We use that for determine medical death, and it should apply for determining life. For example, if you have an accident and you are in a coma beyond a certain stage, doctors will pronounce you medically dead. This standard should apply for life. Does the baby have a certain level of brainwaves? Yes, life, no abort. No, not life, may abort. Any other issue shouldn't be relevant when it comes to law. Law should let people be generally as free as they can be within limits.

[@ChirpyChat]

Excellent conversation. Took the show content a few notches up.

[@yue337]

Whether it is going through abortion or birth, both are not easy for women and both will affect the woman mentally and physically so the choice lies with the woman who is carrying the baby because that will affect her the most. In Singapore, it is illegal to abort after 24weeks because that is when the baby can possibly survive after being born and I think that is a good guideline to balance between respecting the mother’s choice and a new life. Not allowing abortion is just a selfish decision made by men.

[@dinoweiming7495]

Abortion involves heavily on a woman's choice, so how come I only see one woman in this discussion? Both the rape and the abortion are traumatic to the woman, so why are these men making assumptions?

[@lecherhao86]

This is an open discussion and there's no right and wrong. Putting legality aside, pro-life or pro-choice arguments concern not just an individual, the couple and the immediate family but also the community and society at large. If the argument is based on the premises that individual is responsible for his/her own action, and that individual has to make personal choice, then the argument is that pro-life/pro-choice should be an individual decision that bears consequence. And therefore the individual choice ought to be respected. Of course, each premise can further be counterargued. Regarding the societial support system and the ideal situation where society works together to raise up those marginalized- we are not going to discount that. However we can argue that the reality right now in Singapore is that we are not a welfare state that makes sure no one gets left behind, ensuring that alot more resources are given to those who need it more. We are not moving in that direction. We have achieved quite a bit of equality but not equity. Those who with less resources are struggling and what more if they have to deal with difficult circumstances. On this note, let's talk about parents with special needs children, especially those with severe disabilities. They have to prepare for the future that their child will not be able to take care of themselves, not to even mention about supporting themselves economically. IN an ideal society where government goes all out to SUPPORT them, there ought to be alot alot more daily activities centres and special needs school/centres opened for those with special needs, with alot alot more staff to support the clients, and the staff get paid really well to reduce the high turnover. ALL facilities in the community and companies ought to be mandated and funded by government to accommodate to those with special needs who can travel and work. All our Youngs ought to go through some form of inclusive education where they learn and work alongside with those with special needs regardless of their severity. ALL employers ought to be understanding enough to let the parents take leave whenever they need, to take care of their special needs children who suddenly fall sick or to attend to school matters. There are so many IFs, so many assumptions to be made in an ideal situation where society and government support the marginalized, but we all know that we are far far away from that at our current state. Lastly, to have a more meaningful discussion, we ought to include the marginalized 'ones' in national planning- e.g. those who got raped, those who have special needs child, those with severe disabilities, those who were incarcerated. But even if we can have such an inclusive discussion in the planning of policies, even within themselves, they will have diverse opinions on their own unique circumstances. Therefore, there's really no answer to this discussion. And we are not searching for one. We can only advocate for greater support for the marginalized and the less fortunate groups. And to respect individuality and their choices within a legal system.

[@LinksRoyal]

Thank you for your insight and sharing! i have learned much and have much to think about!

[@xueqifong]

Pro life at times seems like its just prioritising the unborn’s child rights over the mother’s rights..

[@brxndonnnn]

I mean it’s either you prioritise the unborn child’s rights over the mother’s or vice versa right.. so why only target pro-life for that? Unless you’re saying pro-choice ensures both rights are prioritised? Please enlighten..

[@wms_raggedwarrior1232]

@@brxndonnnn because the mother is already alive and a functioning human as compared to a baby which has not been born yet????

[@pinktoebeans]

@@wms_raggedwarrior1232 then you go into a utilitarian argument, where we should prioritise those who are more immediately useful to society?

[@brxndonnnn]

@@wms_raggedwarrior1232 And so the mother is definitely more valuable (or worthy of retaining existence) in the long run (keywords: in the long run, because I feel they need to be highlighted for your comprehension) than the unborn child whom could have easily been as valuable or worthy of existence if given birth to. Cool. Speaks volumes.

[@RiJeong]

Give Denise a RAISE always making great points i stan

[@nicolewesley8433]

The shame and trauma felt by the mothers of being raped will be felt by the baby in the stomach. And it will be a downward spiral after that.

[@eded9792]

ProChoice, to me is women's own choice to either keep or abort the conception. Prolife is taking away the individual right to decide.

[@justrandomotaku]

Does the priest know how unreliable and harm to women's bodies some contraceptives are?

[@xia0b0iix]

He is only human after all. :)

[@jeffreytan5840]

The priest does not and cannot suggest contraceptives. In the Catholic Church using contraceptives is a sin.

[@moreover1238]

Denise, thanks for challenging on deformity and quality of life. I work with special needs kids and so many of them are just genuinely happy and loving children. Should they be cut short in their existence Because one assumes they have a lackluster quality of life?

[@Brainiac5]

15:48 kinda disagree with his opinion that its the "easy way out", mainly because you can't just keep having abortions without any drawbacks, the lady who has to get an abortion is exposed to risks and possible side effects. End of the day, I just think the person who has to go through the pain and suffering of giving birth has the ultimate say, and no one else should have the ability to take that power to decide away.

[@gordonchild7508]

The pro life argument is that the unborn child is another life separate from this person. So why does this person have the right to take away the life of the unborn child when they're not the same person. It's another life, it's not the pregnant persons life.

[@charisLUVSmj]

really enjoy how your discussions are always so bold and nuanced!!

[@shunzchia9716]

I think the pertinent point not brought up was about the freedom of choice being taken away from the mother that decides to proceed with an abortion. Understanding the value of life is one matter, but do we then remove the autonomy from the mother? Because by being pro-life, we are actually trying to take away this choice from the woman that has to carry the child for 9 months and and consequences thereafter.

[@sillybearss]

Edits: grammar Good question. I have wrestled with this issue for awhile in the past. The question that made me think more is: “If it’s the case of a born 2-month old, are we also forcing the mother to take care of her child with her body, breast-feeding the child, etc? Doesn’t she have the right to say no to using her body to take care of her child?”. For me, the answer to that question is, well, the mother is simply expected to take care of her child with her body, be it breast-feeding, change diapers, rocking the baby, etc. If mothers of born children are expected to take care and protect their born children to the best of their abilities, shouldn’t we also expect the same for unborn children, since both of them are living children with human DNA? Perhaps you can think about this to add onto your current dilemma.

[@kadakaboom]

Whilst I personally am pro choice and disagree with the priest, I can see what the priest meant when he said it was the couples fault for not using contraceptives in regards to John's friend situation but I am curious to know what the priest thinks if a couple took all preventative measures like condoms and ext, yet still got pregnant. Cause there have been many cases like that. Does that mean still that the couple would have to keep the child?

[@3dcherry_]

to your point, a major preventive measure that u miss out is abstinence. i believe the priest would also say the same, as their beliefs are sex after marriage. in an ideal world i believe that the morality of the priest makes the most sense, but we dont live in that world. we humans are never perfect and sometimes we put ourselves ahead then others and that is where all these dilemma comes into play

[@s9839617i]

You do know that contraceptions are never 100% “safe” in preventing pregnancies right? Couple or not, anyone involved in a consenting sexual intercourse should know the probability of having pregnancies at the end. If the couple chooses to abort a life (their child’s life) out of convenience for eg. their careers, financial state or studies, that isn’t exactly moral is it? Hence we hear Fr Terrence asking them as well on their perception on the value of life. Regards to your question, I would ask if life of the unborn should be in disposal for the living’s convenience?

[@jimw8615]

Dylan Heng well said guys. The problem is people do not want to take responsibility and ownership for their own actions or mistakes. They blame everyone and everything except themselves. They want a reset, a easy way out. Selfish. Period.

[@sunsetstooearly1125]

@@s9839617i The issue is that if it is an unwanted pregnancy, taking away the choice is a lose-lose-lose situation. The parents are not have to put everything they have on hold - lose The society has to take on the burden of putting extra resources for the kid +/- family - lose The kid is unlikely to be growing up in the best possible environment -lose Let's face it, abortions are still gonna happen whether it's legal or not. Wouldn't it be better to provide a safe environment (where it is win-lose or win-win) rather than creating a lose-lose-lose situation

[@s9839617i]

@@sunsetstooearly1125 i would disagree with you and your 3 pointers of a "lose-lose-lose" situation. 1) Sexually active parents SHOULD have the intellect to understand that sexual activities can lead to pregnancies as i already have mentioned. If those parents chooses to have abortion afterwards, it's incredibly irresponsible and morally upsetting. 2) Why would you assume that the "unwanted" child would be a burden in society? Why would you predetermine the unborn's fate? Are you telling me it is impossible for that "unwanted" child to succeed in life? 3) I'd ask you to determine the qualities of life that is "required" for a human person worth living. As Fr Terrence have mentioned, often times it is society's project an idea of what a good life is. Difficult circumstances and hardships does not justify the means to have an Abortion.

[@streen2000]

I think this is a great platform you guys have created and I've enjoyed every episode so far. This is one of the heavier topics you guys have covered; props for taking the effort and encouraging more conversation on this! I do feel though that this issue of abortion needs to be explored in much greater depth - why not get the viewpoints of leaders from other religions, and maybe... representatives from AWARE and our politicians too

[@psl2288]

Instead of policing homosexuals and making choices for women, I think some religions should look into keeping their backyards clean first. In short, bringing paedophiles to task and so called 'religious people' who divide rather then try to bring people together.

[@dthio]

this is srsy the best podcast ever. i love that John Chua prefaced ‘we are not trying to convince anyone, just understand what everyone thinks’. i love that you present the arguments fairly and neutrally :) and you all do it in such a special, humorous, candid way its seriously incredible. what a blessing to society yall really are :D KEEP IT UP GUYS JIAYOUS dont lose that vision ever

[@amelial3396]

no i just wanted to say pro choice is NOT PRO ABORTION, its a misconception. YOU, women have autonomy to CHOOSE if u want to abort OR not. saying im pro abortion is totally wrong, i would personally not abort but that does not mean i think other women should not abort. THATS THE POINT OF PRO CHOICE, YOH HAVE A CHOICE. the whole “pro choice means u enjoy killing babies” is so wrong. no one enjoys abortion, but its having the autonomy and BASIC RIGHT over your body that is intended. people need to understand pro choice DOES NOT EQUAL pro abortion, u get to choose for YOUR OWN BODY. whereas pro life is pro birth, the baby MUST be born despite the context of how it was conceived.

[@kirachew5422]

A 16 with a beautiful life ahead of her was rape by her grand father got prenant with a child with down syndrome. Due to her family and her religious beliefs she have the obligation to keep the child. Can you imagined what the victim the child or family will have to go through for the rest of their life?

[@presston]

Don’t forget that childbirth itself is traumatic.

[@arieljess9242]

Actually, can someone just tell me how does one’s decision of being pro-choice or pro-life has to involve the priest himself. Why is he getting involved in another person’s choices and decisions? Don’t tell me because priest has to force down his rightful laws of his religion as “the bible says so”, he already said that he will not view the situation from a religious standpoint but from a “moral”standpoint… As a priest who stands from a “moral” standpoint, he sets his own definition of what’s moral and what’s not, and choose to refer adoption as an act of immorality because of his own skewed assumptions and arguments e.g. “Who says a down syndrome person can’t be happy?”. No one, even himself, is able to predict whether a new life would be born feeling happy, but we can predict the hardships and pain that the child has to suffer due to down syndrome (a fact that we all can acknowledge). What if he ends up not being happy? Of course the priest wouldn’t allow himself to be liable for any sufferings… YOU made the decision to give birth to this child of your own… YOU take care of him… Shouldn’t the priest have neutral views about this matter instead? He has to understand that he is influential to his own Catholic people. His preachings impact their decisions. They deserve to make their own life choices and practice autonomy. If their act of abortion doesn’t affect or cause inconvenience to the lives of other people, the priest shouldn’t get involved in their decision making. Should this even be made as a topic of discussion and what’s the point of it? Just like cultural, religious and racial differences, we should respect each other’s preferences and life decisions. This video should have been about their opinions towards US’s government policy-making on illegal abortion, not their opinions towards the immorality of abortion. Honestly, how does bringing a priest into this discussion table add value to the content… If his arguments are based on his own opinions, we could get anyone else maybe? Perhaps heterosexual females who had experiences of abortion… and those who didn’t

[@gordonchild7508]

Do you even know what you are saying? There's completely nothing wrong with a priest being involved in this conversation. Every religion or faith would and should teach on all matters of faith and morals. Morality has to do with objective truths in this world. There is no such thing as subjective truth, thats just feelings. Truth is truth. So the priests moral standpoint is backed up with objective truth. Killing someone is wrong for everyone, whether you are religious or not. That's just the truth. Thats why the Catholic church has a stance on it. Religion is based on objective truth whatever it teaches applies to world, whether they are of that faith or not.

[@arieljess9242]

@@gordonchild7508 If abortion is “wrong” and considered an “objective truth”, the idea would have been considered a crime and illegal around the world. So no, it is a subjective truth.

[@lydia4230]

denise at 21:50 - legend

[@waihanho2779]

The law and religion should be separated. If religion believes that certain behaviours are not desirable, that should be managed within the context of that religion. And not applied to the whole of Singapore.

[@TheSmellyboiboi]

I feel like this conversation leaned a little too far into romanticising the Catholic/Christian viewpoint and romanticising the actions of people in an ideal world. Pretty unfeasible and quite irresponsible to do so, especially in cases of the safety of an abused child's physical and psychological health in cases of rape and incest. The sanctity of life is important, until you come across victims of financial, abuse, and a multitude of other societal issues. In an ideal world, no one would rape a child. In an ideal world, no one would irresponsibly have sex. In an idea world, no one would be too poor to support themselves, let alone an already existing family, and an extra new mouth to feed. In an ideal world, physical, mental and psychological deformity would be attended to more vigorously. Personal take: life is precious, but the quality of life is too. If crime, poverty and financial instability goes down, if a family can retain or improve their own QoL, and if a woman can choose to do what she wants/needs to her own body, then abortion should not just be legal, not just be a medical right, but an essential human right. It's not an ideal world. We shouldn't be talking hypotheticals when these issues affect very real people in very horrifyingly bad circumstsnces.

[@maomi3672]

Btw, great episodes as usual (New sub here) but I think it would have been more fitting if you got more women for this particular ep too, because y'know - they are the target of the conversation. A woman who has already made an abortion would have probably given us WAY more insight as to the reasons, causes, stigma, trauma, guilt etc that lead to her decision.

[@nutsanatolia]

awesome episode! thank u guys for hosting Fr Terence, it's really nice to hear this discussion done face to face and not through toxic comment pages 😂 finally a video where people can be mature when faced with different points of view and not cancel each other 😊😊😊

[@kennethng3757]

You should do a pro-LGBT priest vs anti-LGBT priest in a future episode!

[@clarifieryx7736]

I'm a pro choice, there is always consequences to irresponsibility in every form, it's for one to decide which punishment they would rather choose from the other. Also, there's no shame to it, I do not know how people associate such word with abortion.

[@ImANightCreature]

I am and always will be pro-choice (arguments again the priest's points below), but kudos to the team for doing a rational discussion covering a good scope. The priest's point that unwanted babies growing up to a crime-engaging life is the issue of society / gov... exactly! And because we can't have the ideal gov & society (root cause) now, that's why we solve the easier problem - legalize abortion. Let women and families decide if they want this child and if they can support it, with knowledge of (not 100% but at least a portion) the impact to their own lives (eg for women often a career cut). But of course meanwhile the work towards fixing the root cause should not stop. Just that it takes too long, and lets be frank that few have confidence in that coming true, so why should more suffering be made in this long uncertain period of getting society to support families, reduce inequalities etc? Legalizing abortion is NOT the same as controlling who gets the right to reproduction, it is the option to not have children if you don't WANT them. I definitely don't agree with drawing parallels between the two ideas. As for the guilt of taking a life - yes. It will follow you forever. My mom had an abortion when they weren't ready for a child. She's still sad about it now. But it taught my parents a lesson in parenthood and preparedness. The next time they had a child it's me, and I was wanted. I was raised well to the best of their resources, and with minimal impact to my mom's life because they have thought it out and planned their way. It makes me so uncomfortable that ANYONE except the women who bears full grunt of pregnancy and child birth and often the future care-giver role gets to have a call on this decision. Not well-to-do people sitting in high power, not the male partner who caused the pregnancy, not the families of both side. The power should not be handed to anyone else if they cannot take full responsibility of their words. And why is attention only given to the mother for the pregnancy period, when a good adoption (and future lifestyle) is promised for the unwanted child? Pregnancy changes a women's life (and how your body looks). If she was 16yo, its not so easy as "oh take a gap year and go back later lorh". Can the church and other help groups control the gossip of her schoolmates and teachers? Or how she feels when she look into the mirror and observe traces of the pregnancy? No one said abortion is easy or less traumatic. However, let the women pick her own trauma. Let the women decide. Sure at a macro level all is good - we respect lives!! We have higher birth rates and a stronger labour force! But you look at a micro level, family to family... Unwanted children just struggle so much compared to a wanted child. Maybe bringing in some statistics would help (eg how many % of unwanted children got adopted to become wanted children). *But love the priest's point that society had added more filters on depending the value of a person basis their utility. Very thought-provoking.

[@junxian3014]

I was very shocked when the priest said so casually “take a gap year and go back later”. Its such an oversimplification of pregnancy. The amount of care and support needed during and after pregnancy, i dont think having a support group or whatever will work for someone who doesnt want the child. And with the issue of giving up the baby for adoption. If the baby was a result of a traumatic experience (rape / abusive partner etc). Chancing upon the kid randomly outside will bring up the trauma. And if adoption law doesnt allow the mother to know the identity of the child, any kid she sees of similar age range could be her kid. I would think its mentally strenuous to have such thoughts constantly coming up “oh this might be my kid that I gave up for adoption”

[@dereksun761]

It's great to see such matured debates even amongst commentors. If this was a US news. The only argument some people might have is "Church should fix the pedophiles blah blah" I only managed to find just 1. Father Terence has not gone into a full theological debate but its simple. The church does not promote pre-marital sex and if a couple has a child out of it, it is a consequence of their action. Aborting the child is essentially making the child pay for the actions of the parents. As mentioned during this podcast, rape cases/incest etc make up a minority of cases and for the former (rape ) it is acknowledged that the psychological trauma is terrible for the woman. What can society do to help them? As a priest hearing confessions, I'm 100% sure he knows the sins and regrets of many better than anyone and I'm certain the regret from aborting a child has left a huge impact on many women. You cannot undo the psychological trauma of rape but you can undo the trauma of terminating a life. I believe this podcast goal wasn't to change beliefs but as rightfully pointed out to present the arguments of both side for viewers to discern. Regarding arguments on what defines a life worth living, we just need to go back less than a century to see some human beings define who is worthy of living and who is not human enough to be packed in trains to be exterminated. That should also be presented in the conversation piece about what does society feel is valuable. I absolutely loved this episode. Brilliant job team!

[@iyanh09]

denise dropping gems in this video!!!!

[@vhalia]

LOve this episode, and as Fr Terence said, LOVE is what drives your motives to the right path

[@Spooder1989]

I can’t stand it when men, especially religious men, think they can decided for a woman what she can do with her body. Also, pro choice does not mean pro abortion. For example, I may be against it, but I can’t tell someone they can’t do it.

[@trufflesmellgood9214]

Kinda pity Fr Terence and kudos to him for agreeing to feature in this video (John owes him big time)… hope he doesn’t get bothered with the comments on social media. It’s one of those topics where “Damn if you do, damn if you don’t”.

[@kryxieshinnosuke1708]

Denise and Jon Chua are so smart and articulated i really wish i was their friends. My friends are too shallow/childish to talk about anything serious

[@eugene8836]

Full of slippery slope argument from the priest, could've extended (I don't think anyone would disagree a 40 mins episode!) and expound more with logical refutes and discussion! Still loving tho :D

[@aiklynnng]

Love this series so so much. Love hearing from all these different perspectives on life. It really helped me see different issues through different lenses. it certainly taught us to empathize and embrace societal differences with an open heart. Keep up the good work team!

[@operatorlink]

There are lots of slippery slope arguments used, taken to logical extremes.

[@simhweelim]

all of his arguments are slippery slope arguments

[@bonsaijimmy]

When I was in the Poly, & Chairman of the Catholic students Union, our monthly Discussion Session about Abortion was a sell out. As this panel is quite young ( I am now 71), it is always good to hear your views on such a controversial topic. Although I have avoided discussing my views for a very long time for the simple reason that I cannot carry a baby for 9 months , it takes 2 to make a baby. No reason for a Man avoid discussing the sanctity of Life , the moral & financial responsibility & if both are not married the consequences of their decisions regarding the baby. I am surprised that the law does exempt a girl under 16 to undergo an Abortion without parental consent. However, in a TRUE USA case , a 10 year old child was raped. As a minor, I believe any Society should not compel to carry her baby for 9 months. She was a victim so it is morally wrong for her to suffer the dire symptoms of pregnancy plus the pain of child birth. I was a nurse. The date today is 3 December 2022. I watched 20 MPs debating the Repeal of 377a for 2 days this week. May I suggest this panel inviting 2 people with opposing views to discuss your understanding of De criminalising Sodomy for 2 men engaging in that act in private. The Government has will enshrine a definition of Marriage into the CONSTITUTION defining marriage a MONOGAMOUS union of one man & one woman. In a past Dail catchup discussion an Imman declared that it was legal for a Muslim man to have 4 wives in a country where bigamy & polygamy is illegal. Is this EXCEPTION UN Constitutional ?

[@leeboonkang2]

Everyone should be entitled to their own opinion and choices(as much as possible). A law shouldn’t restrict the entire population to forced to chose to not be able to abort when they want to. If the law allow abortion, those that wants abortion can have abortion and those that doesn’t can just don’t do it. And people that are “pro-life” can then talk through and counsel those that are making the abortion choice. Strip away the religion, the morality, the intelligence and etc. At the root we are just living beings that have their life needs and will always choose the option that give us the best advantage in living, so its up to the individual to decide which option is better for him/her, either financially, spiritually or whatever. At least thats my opinion.

[@yolow86616]

Nice coverage but Down syndrome is not the only disability. There are other kinds of inborn disabilities.

[@constantine92]

i think he's just stating Down syndrome as just an example.

[@davidong3776]

I’m happy for this discussion taking place and made public. Arguments and counter arguments. The contestation of ideas and views with well stated principle. Singapore needs more discussions of these kind. Well done boys.

[@guiishow2]

(im a dude so take wtv i say with a pinch of salt) let me start off with saying i think childbirth is also selfish to an extent; i know its a rather extreme opinion, but i see it as an individual having to experience life (both the good and the bad, which btw can also be construed differently between ppl) because of the sole reason their parents wanted them to (i also recognise its impossible to get consent from a fetus; tho i dont think that waives it off). with regards to abortion, i feel like even morality is not that good of a basis to argue upon, because in truth, morality is also subjective. i think what a lot of "pro-lifers" are against is the promotion of abortion. but legalising and promoting can be mutually exclusive. moreover, "pro-lifers" also often only argue for the fetus to be born, but could not care less about what happens to them afterwards; which kinda contradicts the argument itself (for instance, if the fetus is going to be born in a financially struggling family; or even if its born in a well to do family, what about potential health risks that manifest at or after birth? what then are the pro-lifers suggesting to counteract that?). if you've read this up till now, someone somewhere has probably just died of a preventable cause. perhaps more resources and energy should be directed towards reducing death of currently born persons. after all, if one has the right to bring a life into the world, why does one not also have the right to stop said life from entering the world?

[@jiawei0917]

I think the priest already answered it properly. Those “accidents” can be avoided. Since it’s happened, it’s their fault, and their fault shouldn’t cause someone’s life to be taken. They already have a choice when they choose to have protected or unprotected sex. Well for whether what happens to them afterwards, that depends solely on society and the nurturing of the family, not because he’s not aborted. The priest also gave solutions that the church can assist in adoption

[@gordonchild7508]

To your point about morality being subjective. How is morality subjective? Whether something is moral or not, it would be true for everyone. Something that is true is true whether you like it or not. Truth doesnt care about feelings. Killing someone or stealing something is objectively morally wrong. There are moral truths in this world.

[@zhenjie5574]

love your podcast. seems like snippets are missing before 22:35, can just shower us with the full length we are also okay for the quality of content hahah, thanks for being vocal and keeping it up!

[@wayne2109]

Utilitarianism is NOT about the benefits you bring to society. At its core, utilitarianism is about projecting your belief of the "best" life onto others. In this aspect religions, especially processing ones like Catholicism, are very utilitarian.

[@joelasharr]

Jonathan Paul converted at the 15:12 mark of this video. Hahaha!

[@jessicamong1586]

Who want to give birth a rapist child? Women should have the right to abortion regardless conception. Why must women be punish to carry the rapist child?

[@davidpoon1010]

I think being where we are, we can be both pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. We don't have to buy into this partisan style of decision making that is neither beneficial to choice nor life.

[@dialps119]

Denise raises excellent points!

[@casstsj]

Abortion and murder is not the same. Murder is killing a human. Abortion is getting rid of a foetus. What makes us human is not the heart beat or the body parts we have. What makes us human is the experience, emotions and personality we have. A foetus doesn’t have any of that.

[@gordonchild7508]

nonsense. so what does a foetus grow into? a cat? a dog? You were a foetus at one point, but your mother let you develop inside her. So are you saying it is fine to kill a baby when it's 1 day away from due date? Since it still has no human experience, emotions or personality yet? Which again, you wouldn't know because they're not out yet. Tell me, at what age do you know that a person has experience, emotions and personality?

[@ChiongZ]

For the algorithm to pick this channel up!

[@Proactionguy]

the point that terence made at 25:30 hit the nail on the head. many times if it's not due to financial reasons, the idea of aborting kids that have disabilities comes from a place of internal selfishness and inflated ego

[@lecherhao86]

You know, not discounting what you said, we cannot deny that raising up a child with disabilities especially those with severe disabilities, is really really financially demanding. And Singapore is not a welfare state that allocates alot more resources to those who need it more. And even in an ideal world, no government will give unlimited money to the families to support the child with disabilities. Currently, the many subsidies that our government have given might still not be enough to pull these household out of hardship. In my line of work, I have seen many families with people with disabilities and special needs struggle financially. There are many areas to consider financially- medical cost, caregiving cost, special diet cost, education cost, special equipment cost, therapy cost, private tutoring cost. All these aren't free of charge. And that employers are unhappy that the parents have to keep on taking leave whenever the child fall sick at home. Sometimes parents have to rush to school to pick up their child who fall sick or can't take the school bus home. We also have to look at the post graduation for these children with disabilities. Many might not be able to take care of themselves at all. They need caregiving services. They can't hold a job and who's supporting these adults financially until they pass on? The day care facilities are limited and might not be able to cater to every needs of the person with severe disabilities. The schools, centres, agencies are understaff and turnover rates are high. Fact is many of those with severe disabilities have to stay at home after 18. The current reality in Singapore is that our culture, infrastructure, workplaces are not fully equipped and accommodated yet to support people with disabilities with all that we can give. Our society has made improvement along the way. We have indeed achieved quite a bit of equality now. But to move towards that ideal situation where these families with children with disabilities can fully get supported has to be achieving equity more than equality. And in order to do that, we require allocating resources aka money to support the family with more resources and services; to support the service providers with alot more funding and staff to then support the clients; to ensure that these people with disabilities get looked after appropriately after 18 and after their parents have passed on. And I havnt even touched on the other non finamcial aspects yet such as empathy from the general public, removing stereotypes. Basically, the ideal situation is everyone else living, learning and working with the people with disabilities and their families in a truly inclusive AND equity society. Lastly, going back to the part you mentioned where some parents are selfish and have inflated ego to abort those with disabilities. Are they really selfish to think about their future where they know hardship will be awaiting them?

[@arieljess9242]

Don’t you think it would have been more selfish to bring a life that has to suffer hardships as a result of his own disabilities like discrimination from society, pain from endless surgical procedures, inability to support oneself due to financial lack, inability to take care of themselves when their parents start ageing and therefore no longer able to provide physical, financial and emotional support. If they die, external support would have to provide housing for them at not cost since they unable to pay rent. Can you now see how much of a inconvenience and burden that others have to bear as a result of keeping a disabled life?

[@kingseiryu929]

So everything boils down to this: are you pro choice? That is u believe women should have the right to abort because their womb their choice. But then when it comes to aborting special needs, ppl who are pro choice cannot suddenly say ohhh but special needs children are lives too so u can't abort just bcos they might have worst life. It's contradictory.

[@luigisrs]

Morality and the shaming of women around the issue need to be further addressed. Too many males in a conversation about women rights :/

[@Zach-wv8pz]

Abortion isn't just a women's rights issue. It concerns the rights of unborn children and fathers too. There are multiple principles regarding this matter and they are inherently contradictory to one another. Inevitably, some principles are prioritised over others to varying extent. The crux of the matter is to strike a balance between these principles, and the balance shifts with the ever changing sociocultural and technological landscapes.

[@darren4094]

Law is made by people, for the people. Bottom line is prolife takes away your right to your body therefore your destiny. Your god, morality, or whatever have no place in forcing some poor girl to keep a bunch of cells. If youre in a burning building, faced with a choice to save only one A.helpless girl or B.1000 viable fetal cells, then life at conception argument is moot. If adoption was a viable option then orphanages wouldn't exist. The wait-list for adoption would be for newborns. I loled when he brought it up. All those missions to impoverished countries didn't make him see the gangs of street children in Catholic manila eh? If the govt allows the sale of cigarettes then I'm encouraging my people to smoke? If I let people have the choice to abort something potentially destructive or even life threatening, then it encourages people to have sex irresponsiblly? The sale of cigs or alcohol is like prochoice, banning it wouldn't make it go away. It just makes it unsafe, unregulated. The ignorance to think your views have any bearing on a major life decision of some poor girl that's already in distress to come to an option like abortion is absolutely disgusting. Ps. Let's say the acting policy is prolife, you're driven to desperation, you illegally get an abortion. You and and the operator are open to murder charges. And in Singapore,that's the death penalty. So you're going to kill someone to teach them not to kill someTHING

[@swaser112]

Trauma of taking away a life? What about the trauma of childbirth and the effects before and after? Why assume the lady has a support system surrounding her? An abortion allows the lady to live her life as before and she can fully focus on handling the trauma from the rape rather than having to juggle both childbirth and the trauma. Also, it depends on what you define is a life. It’s called birth certificate, not conception certificate.

[@sashamericia]

really kudos to this video , so many insights! and as a fellow catholic as well makes me happy to see Jon Chua like not afraid to bring a priest in this videos as I feel now people are afraid to evanglise and show this part of them as well so thank you!

[@aaron96ish]

Amazing and eye-opening content. Keep it up guys 🔥 subscribed

[@ethanlim3548]

Interesting discussion! Loving the content

[@wenqiang7857]

When is the next episode coming out? These podcasts are very nice interesting to watch!👍🏻👍🏻

[@duduawate]

If a young minor girl gets pregnant after being raped, would that be a valid reason for her to abort?

[@wendyshoowaiching4161]

It's a challenging question. Since it has conception (brought to life in the womb), we cannot abort the baby. If you don't plan to keep, give up to orphanage home to live well. At least one didn't commit killing of a life and bear the karma of killing. Many pregnant women commited abortion and live to regret it with many problems later into the life. And the featus suffering spirit couldn't cross over remain, follow and the mother experience many bodily sickness and obstruction in life. Bad Luck and not many things is not smooth in life.

[@uriahhozhenhao3801]

the table flipped because of the priest's aura

[@tareginda]

Will channel consider subtitles, pretty please?

[@youshengchew1728]

Late to this.. but I feel that what the priest said is true. Religion should not be pushed onto everyone in terms of law. There are agnostics and atheists. Hence I can be a Catholic that is pro life for myself. But still want to allow pro choice for others. The law should be for the majority but I can be pro life for myself. Let's be tolerant of everyone.

[@Behmushimushi]

My own personal opinion. I am a pro-choice and pro-life depending on the circumstances, and an atheist. (Please do not take offense) Regarding the rape argument on whether to abort or to keep the baby is a very unfortunate incident and I hope and pray that you find the happiness that you deserve. But think of it this way, if you ever decide to abort an innocent baby, wouldn't it be very traumatizing as well which is choosing to take an innocent life? If you ever decide to have the ultimate courage(not saying the victim who choose to have an abortion has no courage) to keep the baby and raise it yourself or to let it be adopted knowing that the child will be in good hands, wouldn't it heal some part of the trauma knowing that you've done a very commendable act to provide the child with love and care despite the past tragic circumstances? To every single rapist out there, you will definitely rot in hell to a point where you wish you didn't even exist in the first place. Willing to be proven wrong and believe there is a god or gods for this sole purpose.

[@cceriouslyy]

Great episode! Do one on lgbt issues with the priest!

[@cplcwgoh]

What about perspectives from other religions? Or people without religion?

[@smapguy1987]

I really love this podcast and the openness of everyone on hearing differing views and being so civil about it. I'm a pro-lifer btw. Haha. I feel it would be more interesting for someone to take the position of the aborted babies because they are the only party which does not have a voice in this. The irony is that we can only debate about this because we have the privilege of not being aborted in the first place.

[@veenassa]

Bring Fr Terence for more topics !

[@Yewsingz]

Loving the content here, haven't missed an episode. Great discussion with different views, religiously, emotionally and more. Well done & keep it coming 💪🏻

[@noellephan8956]

psa & tw to anyone that were r*aped n impregnated, pls do not listen to this!! i just want to validate ur choices and experiences and that you should not feel ANY guilt for your own choices!!

[@clarence961]

22:30 onwards HAHAHAHA

[@HangHangTwee]

jon paul praying position LOL

[@chloeoki7151]

Should we halt vaccine boosters till end of the year for high income countries as urges by WHO to allow millions in poorer countries who have yet to receive a single dose?

[@jjxx8764]

excellent conversation. maybe if it’s possible, you guys can get a female pastor as a guest as well, and see if the 2 pastors have the same view or will their thoughts differ.

[@elizayeo3294]

A discussion on abortion, yet you invited a male guest. Total of 4 males and 1 female in this panel as well.

[@dianec8987]

Very interesting Convo. The priest made some good points 🤔

[@KimiLovesYouxoxo]

ok thanks this discussion has affirmed my decision: tying my tubes bye

[@hloc]

Great... A full blown sausage party...

[@kingseiryu929]

Great... All humans again. Can we get some interspecies interaction? Humanist

[@rajand1872]

Are pro lifers also against the death penalty or only abortions?

[@lawboy5566]

John paul watch quite nice. Kept getting distracted by it. Casioak mod??

[@TheDailyKetchupPodcast]

Yup. -)

[@toodletop]

Thanks for the video, really enjoyed it. Very interesting views shared! There are a few points that can be discussed that does not have to be about the debate about religious beliefs or ideological values. The first point on whether abortion should be prohibited and criminalised. The facts show that penalising abortion actually does not prevent it. People who experience unwanted pregnancies will somehow seek out access to abortion even in the most punitive legal situations, which actually is more dangerous and causes other problems in society. Many clandestine abortions are performed unsafely, that may lead to health problems or even death. The second point is about human rights of women and girls. Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy in cases when the foetus has serious complications or if the pregnancy was the result of rape is a form of inhuman and degrading treatment to women. Does the Catholic Church permit abortion if it knowingly endangers the life of the mother? In this case, for the mother, is knowingly allowing or doing something to your body you know might result in death, a sin? What Father argues is based on his definition of when life begins, which is at conception of the embryo. This has been debated and no consensus has been reached. Some argue that it's at day 14, where you can no longer form twins and triplets. Some argue it's at week 24 to 28 when you see the beginnings of the human specific electroencephalogram. If we have different definitions of where life begins, his arguments will not hold unless he can convince everyone that life starts after fertilisation. If embryo lost were the moral equivalent of infant death, then pregnancy would have to be regarded as a public health crisis of epidemic proportions and alleviating natural embryo loss would be a more urgent moral cause than abortion.

[@crabmeatsushi]

i know its supposed to b a podcast but do yall think yall can do w subtitles 😖😖 im more of a visual than audio and i cant catch some parts hehehheheheheh but other than that i love ur channel!

[@mizsharon87]

Please post a video everyday! =)

[@kwangahsan9501]

YesMarriages beprepared LifePreciously PreciouslyPreciously.

[@BeachBoi1000]

If I got a Down syndrome foetus I will abort not because he/she will not have a good life but I will feel miserable.

[@kirachew5422]

Religion vs Law.