Should new authors be plotting or pantsing?

[@carolynbrubaker1619]

Thank you!!! You are the first agent I have heard say that pantsing is "ok". Most seem to think it's cheating or lazy somehow. WHen I wrote my first book clear back in 1987 I tried to plot it out because I thought that's was what I was "supposed" to do and immediately got so bogged down I was ready to quit before I really began. Before I put it aside I decided to jump ahead and write a scene I was excited about.The minute I started writing the scene Boom! the excitement and fun was back again. TUrns out I am a total pantser. Nothing will send my muse running to the corner to pout faster than trying to outline, but I've always kept it as a guilty little secret; because thought I was the only one. I never even heard the term pantser until 2016 and it was like finding a golden easter egg. I think the vast majority are most comfortable with at least some sort of a plan but there are a few of us that really do better when we "write by the seat of our pants".

[@dueling_spectra7270]

Look up Dean Wesley's Smyth's presentations on Writing into the Dark. I think there's at least four or five different versions he's given over the years uploaded here in youtube. You will find what he has to say about what he observed writers doing vs what they proclaimed to be doing interesting.😉 Also, Becca Syme's book Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? was helpful to me because she explores why it's okay to trust our inner pantser, why we are often conditioned not to trust it, as well as how to start overcoming that distrust.

[@jimgilbert9984]

Plotting vs. pantsing. I was thinking about this as I wrote my latest novel. I do my research, then I work out a rough plot in my head. My "plot outline" is basically made up of the big events in the novel, but not the stuff in-between. I let that stuff flow naturally as I move from one event to another, kind of like a conversation that I have with myself. This means I usually have to go back and revise or double check something when I'm writing later in the book, but revision is part of the job. This approach allows me a lot of flexibility in my storyline, especially when/if things come up (news, documentaries, further information concerning my subject, etc.) that I can work into my novel. For example: My first novel is about a guy who lives in a haunted house in a small town outside Charleston, SC. He has to go into the city on business. I wanted him to encounter ghosts in Charleston. Just as I was approaching that point in my novel, I saw a documentary about the time when pirates blockaded Charleston (back when it was still called Charles Town). The documentary even mentioned a ghostly legend that stemmed from the blockade. So I worked it into my novel for the character's visit to Charleston. I'm not saying this is the way for everyone. To borrow a line from Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books: "There is no one true way." What works for one person may or may not work for another person. Everyone should find the way that works best for him/her.

[@brandonparsons5412]

Im about a 75% pantser and 25% plotter. I found very early on in my writing journey plotting was not fun for me. I had the major story plot points I wanted to hit and decided I’d let the characters take me there. Some even changed along the way. For me it feels more natural and I enjoy the twists and turns that wasn’t planned out but it was what the characters would do so I went with it! Love your videos!

[@AlyssaMatesic]

This sounds like a great middle ground!

[@sanchorim8014]

I'm the inverse: 75% plotter, 25% pantser Plotting gets me further than trying to come up with stuff on the fly, but I make tweaks as I go.

[@briankilgore8808]

@@sanchorim8014 authorial flexibility is a good thing.

[@jamesman9208]

You have quickly become a top 5 youtuber for me. Love your stuff. I was a football player in a family of writers, and now in my 20's feel very behind trying to catch up. Finished 6 short stories and working on Nanowrimo now. Love your stuff. Keep it up

[@AlyssaMatesic]

I'm so glad you're enjoying my channel - thanks for the kind comment!

[@tinahoffman6073]

Great questions today! Hooray for Triple A Wednesday! ❤

[@melsilva9158]

I've been an engineer for my 30+ year career and started writing a Sci-Fi novel last year. As you probably guessed, I am a plotter. I have a word document that has main character descriptions, plot arcs, and some raw data in the beginning and then has a 5-10-point outline for each chapter. Some chapters have excruciating detail for the plot points (like fight or battle scenes that have been mapped out). The outline document alone is 25k words. Then I have hand-drawn floor plan drawings of the protagonist ship and I have a spreadsheet with names, ranks and defining characteristics for ships, places, people and even more details on the dozen main characters of the story. I just completed writing Ch-38 and I have outlined 40 chapters plus an epilogue. But here's the thing... I may have 6 plot points I want to cover in a chapter, but when I'm adding dialogue and scenes, some of those plot points just don't fit (theme or setting, not word count). So, the outline has remained fluid as plot points shift from one chapter to the next or further along in the story. Nor, did I outline the entire storyline all up front. In a lot of cases, I only had the chapter title, with no plot points for future chapters when I started writing. Then, based on the previous chapters, I would outline the next 5 or so chapters. As has been said many times, it's a process and the characters sometimes create their own plot points for a chapter that I never outlined at all. Once you build the characters and world, sometimes they tell the writer what they should be doing in that moment as others have stated.

[@sanchorim8014]

Recently, I've started doing chapter outlines in addition to the outline for the whole novel, because while the page by page stuff can be fun, it can also be tedious and take forever. Right now, I only outline the chapter that I'm currently working on, and I don't script most of the dialogue. I'll see how it plays out.

[@Exayevie]

I’m working with a totally new process for my current WIP and the results are so LIBERATING. I finally decided to do whatever made sense for me, and it ended up looking like this: First, I sketched out a very rough arc that was more about dividing the story into sections exploring different facets of the concept (rather than planning out specific plot points). Next, I used that framework to discovery write a “zero draft” (disclaimer: that means different things for different people). Then, I did some developmental editing work from the zero draft - refined the character arcs I was going to use, patched plot holes, moved scenes. Now, I’m writing my first full, proper draft from the edited zero draft and it’s going so well. I have no idea what steps in that process would even QUALIFY as plotted or pantsed. It feels like it’s not even on the same spectrum, in a way that has been immensely refreshing.

[@AlyssaMatesic]

This is great! So glad you've found a process that works so well for you!

[@jc6086]

I JUST discovered that I am, indeed, a plotter. I finished my last book by plotting. And I recently started a new project, also by plotting. But before I got to this new book, I started not one, not two, but THREE books via pantsing and lost steam at the 50 page mark. Every. Single. Time. It just helps knowing exactly what is happening for each chapter, what the themes are, what the main goal is for the book. I need a clear vision in order to write. I like to take all the hard guesswork out of writing so I can just have fun writing the scene I know I need to write.

[@UvstudioCaToronto]

You are just like me!

[@fleurwings6973]

Hey there, I have a few questions: 1) Would trying to get featured in literary magazines help upcoming writers get a bit more established, or possibly create connections with potential agent, editor, or publisher. and if yes, can you explain how to pick the magazines that are best for submittsions? 2) Do the big publishing houses budget the traveling for literary events of the writers they represent?

[@dueling_spectra7270]

I wrote my first book by pantsing it. The second I plotted. I found plotting more plodding, and it's easy to write a little too much detail, which completely gums up the process for me. What I eventually worked out to was starting with a clear premise, then as I write, I have up to seven bullet points below my current chapter, where I store my open loops. So If something happens in the story, that will have consequences a few chapters out, it goes into my open loop list, so I'm not dropping story threads. Also if the protagonist or antagonist has things they wants to accomplish in the near future, they get added to the list as well. I think this was a coping mechanism I tried by fluke when my brain-fog was at it's zenith. Like making a cup of tea, so you boil the kettle, rip open the tea bag, get distracted, come back hours later to find the kettle's no longer warm, the teabag is in the mug but bone dry, and now you're completely partched level of executive-dis-function. But it's given me a nice writing method where the story still feels spontaneous, and I always know what I want to write! The other thing that's been helpful is giving each chapter a brief heading (I saw this in a fictionary webinar) so when I get that stuck feeling because my intuition is screaming that I've just created a continuity error, it makes it MUCH easier to go back and fact check.

[@kirtiomart]

I finally finished reading all the "Chapter Break" newsletter emails. Thank you...

[@AlyssaMatesic]

You're so welcome! I hope you've found them helpful.

[@lorettaknoelk3475]

I do a loose outline at best. I tried to write a book with my husband. We had creative differences. Biggest one being he wanted to super outline every scene and plot. I did appreciate the outline to remember character ages and quirks. Also to make sure I used all 7 characters. But that's about all I did with that. I experience writing in a way like someone is telling me a story and I am the typist.

[@jamesbutler7885]

I'm definitely a mix of plotting and pantsing. With most of my novels, I typically know the general arc of the story and how it will end, then I will allow the characters and the scenes to evolve as I'm moving through the overall outline.

[@hardnewstakenharder]

Completely pantsed my first novel and it's in acquisitions, but I gotta say, I'll be plotting the next one lol.

[@JustClaude13]

I've been writing down and developing stories for decades, but had no idea what to do with them. Most of them cheap trash, of course. Then two things came together last year. I learned about the National Novel Writing Month and I found a copy of Save the Cat. I put the two together and decided I'd try actually writing my first novel. So I picked the idea I was most passionate about right now, an orphan girl trying to head off a goblin uprising to save the kingdom, and the goblins. I started laying out the beats and developing the scenes, told my brother what I was doing and invited him to join me, and started making preparations. I ended the month with 50,050 words and finished the rough draft ten days later. It's surprisingly readable. My brother just sat and wrote what came to him. He finished at 49,500 and is still plugging away. He's a pantser, but he's looking at learning some story structure so he can do a rough outline to find the finish. This year I plan to have a deeper outline with more details, while my brother will probably have a one page road map to keep him on course. We're still working on methods.

[@gailcbull]

On plotting vs. pantsing: I'd like to recommend a book called "Story Engineering: Mastering the 6 Core Competencies of Successful Writing" by Larry Brooks. In it, he lays out a plan for brainstorming your concept and a series of concept questions. The concept questions are a list of questions to answer before you get to the end of your first draft. To compare it to hiking, if pantsing is setting out with no idea where you're going, and outlining is following your GPS giving you every detail of the path, then concept questions are setting out with a compass and a list of landmarks to discover along the way. It's a fantastic "middle ground" method for writing a first draft.

[@andyclark3530]

I mainly write short stories, and that's a little different, but sometimes I 90% plot, sometimes I 10% plot. At times I will develop character descriptions, setting descriptions, the theme and scene by scene descriptions. And sometimes I write a 2-3 sentence story concept. Either way seems to work for me, but the ones that have a more developed outline tend to develop into longer stories. The last novel I wrote was definitely plottied, but I varied from that plot significantly as I went along. I do think that it's important to give yourself license to change and adapt as you draft and the story builds inside of you, and that's a strength of pantsing. Plotting can be adaptable too, you just need to view your plot as a pre-first draft that's subject to revision along with everything else. Bless you, Alyssa and Lucka for anotherr well done video. I do have a silly question - how do you spell Lucka?

[@vandaken3612]

I'm more of a pantser. I found that plotting was forcing me to come out with character traits and storylines that felt restricted. The story I wanted to write felt formulaic because of all the planning I'd done. Once I threw that out, words just flowed onto the page and I felt like it was the characters and the story that was taking me along on a journey. Even the ending I initially planned, changed as a result and felt more natural.

[@declanconner9360]

As long as you know how to structure a story, it doesn't matter if you plot or pants. Both have you consider the story as it unfolds, and you can hold the plot points in your head, on paper, or the hard drive for where they need to occur and drive towards them as targets. I personally prefer to write a blurb for the genre to know the story has legs before I do anything. I then flesh that out to a 1 page synopsis as a bare minimum. Much easier than condensing say 90k words when done. As for plotting, my last efforts have been two trilogies which I planned out in detail and which each took a month to plot. I then completed the full trilogies in a further 3 months at 90k each, so from a productivity POV, it worked for me. I couldn't' have done that by pantsing which normally takes me 6 months for me to write just 1 ' book. Both trilogies needed individual book plots and with an overall plot for the trilogies and various character arcs. It would have been too complicated to get to the end game without writers block or losing sight of plot and characterizations.

[@futurestoryteller]

I guess it wouldn't be fair to phrase this as a question. I think the only right way to look at writing is that there is no one right way, like you said. But I have met a person who refuses to _try_ new methods for the sake of experimentation and potentially improvement, and personally I don't understand what the hangup is there.

[@TheresaReichley]

I find the concept of “book bibles” to work pretty well for me. Create a book of all the characters, plots and world building, and a fairly simple outline (I use Harlan’s 8 beat structure or Save The Cat 15 beat depending on the story). This gives enough information and depth to give you an idea of where you’re heading, but it’s not so huge that it ties you down. But I find that having the stuff that matters most to the story written and collected beforehand keeps things consistent enough to create something worth reading and editing. I think there is a bit of bias toward thinking you can pants, for the same reason people in the rap scene think they can freestyle. It seems impressive to say that you came up with your story on the fly. But it’s not really how most people work and only works well once you’re good enough at recognizing problems in the plotting or characters to know something is off.

[@AlyssaMatesic]

These are great tips for outlining - thanks for sharing!

[@mollyrafferty801]

A Google form for questions may be easier. You could probably get the questions delivered to your email, and after you answer them, you could delete the email. This would help you make sure you answer every question. The con would be receiving so many emails lol

[@matttholl6004]

Oh my god..at night time I sauna and roast a bowl..and leason to the old time radio shows of years gone by..it was at amazon..expecting the thirlls..thematic in the background sending chills up your spine..it was a ..ai..voice coming over the speaker..scary..very scary..cheers😀👍

[@brendanjparedes]

The last four manuscripts I wrote were pantser books. It took three weeks to cover 120K words... much longer to cut 20K from the word count and proof it until the prose was clan of typos and grammatical errors... mostly typos... stupid new keyboard. I took notes as I went on the first to give me a character list and basic events that needed to be addressed in some fashion. But, other than that, the next three all took about a month, including a Christmas book - stupid Hallmark channel. I've plotted before, but only generally laying out a very quick chapter summary for a serial I was writing. But, I generally find that if I try to plot it, I'm fighting against the story as I write. Somewhere in the second act I usually have an ending already written that I'm steering into. But, other than a couple of ideas I'll come up with while I write to use further into the story that I'll jot down, I start with Chapter One and run straight through the end. And then I'll agonize over a synopsis and a three-sentence story description to build a query off of. When the gears start grinding in my head trying to ride out the story, I stop... usually three full rough drafts of novels in. There are parts of the plotting process I wish I could do but, other than a paragraph I might write a month or two or six ahead of time, start on Chapter One and run with it.

[@kaylajames3098]

Haha. Hallmark’s got me too. Will try your process.

[@georgiapayne2945]

I think I'd say I'm about 90% plotter and 10% pantser because I always outline the main plot but new ideas usually pop in when I'm writing 🤷‍♀️

[@Axxman300]

Career Pantser. I always have set-pieces I write toward, but everything in between is written on the day. I tried an outline once, wrote a hilarious treatment, but when it ended up on paper it was dull, and boring. For the record, my current NaNoWriMo is halfway done, and it's half pantser, half outline due to being a revision of last year's failed project. Your self-assessment checklist came in handy, and I've restructured the story to give more upfront action from Chapter-One, and develope characters, and plot. So thanks for that.

[@AlyssaMatesic]

So glad you found the self-assessment helpful! Good luck with the rest of your NaNoWriMo project :)

[@arielb98]

Hi Alyssa! Your channel is so helpful as I wait for my critique partners give me feedback and start my query package. But here is my sceanrio/question: I'm planning to query 4-5 agents at a time (1 dream agent, 2 good fits, and 2 low priority ones) next year. I'll likely send the 2 good fits and 2 low priority agents for practice first in my first two rounds and apply what I learn before querying more agents that align with my career goals. But what if I get a full request or even representation offer before even getting to my dream agent(s)? Should I take representation from an agent that likes my book just in case all my dream/ideal agents don't offer me anything? Or should I only query agents that match my most of my needs.

[@minsogoth]

Hey, Like the questioner from today I am a half and half writer. What I have found to work the best for me is to start out pantsing and then at around the 1/4 mark I stop and plot out the major beats and scenes that need to be there and then work my way to those while still occasionally veering off if a good idea comes to me. I originally thought I was a pantser through and through but I wasn’t able to finish a book until I discovered that I need some structure at point along the way.

[@AlyssaMatesic]

I love this hybrid approach! Glad you've found a process that works well for you :)

[@blt2421]

Plotter. I need to know my destination before I hit the road.

[@DR-ul8vx]

I have found both methods, (plotting vs pantsing) have worked for me dependent on the project I was working on at the time. An example would be a project I was very passionate about, no outline, no plotting, finished initial draft in about a month. A different project which was interesting to me, I created detailed outlines, character trees, extensive research, this took about 6 months to complete.

[@bobcornwell403]

I think writing is similar to acting.In acting, they use both "technique" and "method", with technique being the fall back. Perhaps they start out using technique and end up using method. Maybe, sometimes it's the other way around. I consider "pantsing" to be the writing version of method and plotting to be the writing version of technique. Right now, I'm mostly a pantser. I start out with a story premise (usually with a foreseen end) then try to motivate my characters to make it happen. More often than not, I can stick to the original premise, but everything else seems to change. Especially the ending.

[@xandermedina2065]

I like to make a very detailed plot thing. Basically, a full synopsis in bullet points. Then i start writing and use that as a very loose guidline. Question though, how much control would i have over the details of my book through traditional publishing? Like, on the cover, i would have some requirements(a special number for the spine, a specific thing on the cover, and none of that reviews thing(i dont like seeing other people thought the book was pretty good, i wanna know what the book is about)). Inside the book, i would want a line of writing at the bottom of each page separate from the rest of the story, and it is written in my language i made up?

[@dXoverdteqprogress]

I can only manage to plot the next chapter or two, especially at the beginning of a novel. I sometimes attempt to plot loosely the whole book. The problem is: my characters tend to resit this process -- they don't seem to like when I force situations on them. They know who they are and usually have better ideas of what should happen next.

[@AlyssaMatesic]

Love this! Sometimes you just have to trust your characters and allow them to take the story where they want it to go.

[@jackiereadsandwrites]

QUESTION: I'm not sure if you've answered this in one of your videos before, Alyssa, but what are your thoughts on full manuscript rejections? Obviously the industry is extremely subjective, but if agents are passing on your full, at what point should you consider taking another look at your manuscript and possibly revising? Thanks for all that you do!

[@Alkemisti]

I have two: 1. How much similar should the comparable titles be? Is it enough they're in the same genre, should the subgenre be the same, or should there be thematical, tonal, or narrative similarities? 2. Should I mention in the query that English is not my native language?

[@meaghans4523]

Hey Alyssa! I have a question for you regarding critique partner etiquette. I finished the first draft of my novel and am working on my own developmental edits now. I want to find and work with critique partners eventually, but at what point in the editing process should I do this? Should my manuscript and prose be more polished first? Or is a sloppier first draft ok to send to others if it’s just developmental advice I’m after for now? Thanks!

[@soccerguy325]

Hi Alyssa, this might sound like a silly question, but I've noticed that a lot of agents recently are trying to diversify their range of authors and stories, in light of recent cultural changes, which is of course great. I know that of course I won't be rejected because I'm white, but might my book be rejected because it lacks POC? The book I'm writing just doesn't really have to do that much with race, and so I fear that lack of cultural conversation or insight which so many other modern fiction books nowadays include might make it less desirable. Or am I reading too much into this new drive from agents to diversify their range? Thanks!

[@nasseryazdi5679]

Hello Alyssa. I have a question about pitching. Is it appropriate to call your novel upmarket when sending requests?! I'm working on a fast paced sci fi with strong character arcs, and a voicy first person narrator. I'm afraid it might sound arrogant and would really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

[@archetypalpoetry]

I suppose it's a bit arbitrary to just state my ratio...But personally I have found that it depends completely on the amount of detail within' each story. For my current project I found that there is so much detail surrounding the protagonist's character and his tasks that I was constantly making mistakes and creating inconsistencies in my own story. So I had to make multiple pages of bullet points to keep in front of me of specific items in his possession and their significance, details about his relationships with some periphery characters among other things. I typically have no problem pantsing, but I'm fairly certain in this case it would have been wise to outline and plot with a bit more detail so I don't need to keep fixing small seemingly foolish errors in the details of my own book 😂

[@dbjmms]

What do you think about books that break traditional writing forms. I’m writing a novel that deviates from usual structures, for example I alternate chapters between the past and the present, and I have spaces in between paragraphs, with the text left aligned. Do you think writers should experiment with the form if it supports the story? Or do you think it might be too disruptive for the reader.

[@tinahoffman6073]

Luka! ❤🐾

[@cjpreach]

IMO - newer authors should try many techniques in order to find their way creatively.

[@scourge_creations]

Can all the tips you give out wprk for a series? Im working on an animated stop motion series

[@louhill5448]

In the current literary market, driven by craft, commerce, and strategy, is there still a place for obscure works? How would James Joyce's Ulysses fare if it landed on a publisher's desk today?

[@louhill5448]

@@DanLyndon Well said. It did cause a stir however, even before it was published as a book. I wonder if today it would be left unread on slushpiles.

[@PetProjects2011]

Congrats on saying "pantser" and "pantsing" with a straight face.

[@booklover9040]

I actually plan every scene before I write it and after I wrote the scene I plan the next one. Not sure what my writing method is called 🤔. That is how it comes naturally for me. But I don‘t know if it is a good method because I usally write very slowly and if I don‘t have the scene planned beforehand and I have no ideas I can‘t force myself to write it. Does anyone have the same problem?

[@kaylajames3098]

I think plantser-pantser.

[@andeeharry]

I am a pantser and I want to know why you are doing this? There is no wrong way to do a story and each path and plan is different for everyone, and each method will work in it's own way

[@brindlebucker4741]

Which is sort of exactly she said.

[@marksreofficial]

Dear Alyssa, Would submitting/querying more than one manuscript of the same genre, say two or three, to a single agent increase our chances of getting representation??? I feel like it would show them that we are serious about writing and have invested time and money into wanting to pursue it as a career. I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Best, Markus