Should Richard Dawkins Try Drugs? - Sam Harris

[@CosmicSkeptic]

For early access to episodes, ad-free, go to www.patreon.com/alexoc | This clip contains a paid partnership with BetterHelp. Get 10% off your first month: www.betterhelp.com/alexoconnor

[@jochannan7379]

Please please stop supporting betterhelp! For so many patients as well as for so many therapists, the betterhelp experience has been truly nightmarish, and the company is riddled with scandals!

[@SirRaiuKoren]

@@jochannan7379 Unfortunately, I must agree. I discovered my own data was sold to a third party by BetterHelp. I get that there is no free sandwich and all that, and BetterHelp has to figure out a way to make money while still offering severely discounted access to therapy, but selling patient data is grossly unethical and is not the right way to do it.

[@DiversionG]

Don't sponsor betterhelp, it's a company filled with deliberate bad practices

[@aquacruisedb]

Love your content...hate your sponsor! I'll only say that you should look into your sponsors as much as you look into your topics of discussion...

[@DemainIronfalcon]

​@@DiversionGis it a organisation that deliberately exercises erroneous practices and props up corrupt staff or administration or executives. Because if it's battling to change its culture it may deserve support..

[@TheLeon1032]

Ben Stiller is getting wiser as he ages, the actor that found the protractor, smart guy

[@logician7517]

He's definitely come a long way since Meet the Fockers.

[@beter7886]

this is sam harris' alt account.

[@vincenthagood349]

I guess they kinda look alike? Not really

[@TheLeon1032]

@@vincenthagood349 WELL DONE FOR THE COMMENT, U SOUND LIKLE A HOOT

[@SQUATCH100]

Stiller could play him in a movie.

[@DionysusBrew]

The outstanding video and audio quality you have continued to produce cannot be overlooked. Thank you for not only having these fantastic conversations, but for continuing to improve the quality of the channel in every aspect.

[@DemainIronfalcon]

Hello, my name's Dion, there's not room on you tube for 2 of us lol.. I agree about the video ✌️

[@OMGwtfSTFUbrb]

Better help is a bad service. No shade on Alex but if you are reading this, find a real therapist and see them face to face instead. This service is basically fiver for therapists and there is little to no verification of license or credentials of the therapists.

[@kurtcrean]

And privacy violations and the list goes on. I was shocked when I got to the end, I thought it was a joke about better help but no.

[@bruisedviolets]

Yup

[@symbiosisai]

It's very helpful for people like me who reside in 3rd world countries, that do not have access to therapy and where its still widely believed that mental health problems are caused by black magic or the evil eye

[@DemainIronfalcon]

It maybe for some, but I think it's subjectively viewed differently by people who can not afford more..

[@harryroadman1089]

Therapy is mostly a scam anyway right

[@quaidrowan]

I've tripped on mushrooms 20+ times at least. Lost count. I have had transcendent experiences. I've also had some pretty dull trips. One thing I can say is that I don't agree at all with people who compare trips to dreams. I don't know how other people dream I suppose, but mine seem random - people, places, things, scenarios, shifting and changing every few moments. On my most intense mushroom trip I was floored and overwhelmed with a sense of an otherworldly presence, a beatific vision so bright and blinding I could barely move or breathe for several minutes. That's never happened in any of my dreams. I don't really know what it means, or if it means anything at all, but it wasn't no dream.

[@hartyewh1]

People don't equate the kind if experience, but just the actual depth and truth value.

[@bryandraughn9830]

I had a dream the other night about fighting with a bunch of rabid monkeys. I don't know what's going on with my brain lately.

[@360.Tapestry]

my dreams are actually less random and less crazy after a trip🤷‍♂

[@theCommentDevil]

Yeah my experiences weren't like dreams either, maybe some people just don't know how to describe it

[@quaidrowan]

@@hartyewh1 it's not hard for me to figure out the meaning of most of my dreams. They're clearly rooted in past experiences, traumas, etc. They're 100% me. And I would say the same of most trips. But not all. I don't know how else to describe it but being in the presence of a divine being. I could feel its absolute power and love radiating at a billion times more than anything I've ever experienced. It was completely overwhelming and debilitating. I've tried and tried to recapture that experience on subsequent trips, set, setting, dosage all of it. It hasn't happened again. Next stop: DMT.

[@avaboyer9297]

Alex, no matter how good of philosopher you are, you can’t maintain credibility while associating with brands like Better Help. For the sake of your brand, your credibility, your followers privacy and wellbeing, please dump them immediately. No pay check is worth the embarrassment of partnering with them.

[@Maniaaaz]

whats wrong with them, did they do something?

[@avaboyer9297]

@@Maniaaaz It was created by techbros with zero experience in healthcare or clinical psychology, who have one goal - profit off mental health. They sold customer's information (even extremely private relating to sexuality, sex, medication etc) as well as their identity information, email address and IP address to Facebook and other data brokers for advertising purposes, after specifically advising that all information was confidential. Quality control is terrible, endless reports exist of unqualified, unprofessional, overstretched 'therapists' behaving unprofessionally during sessions and giving terrible, detrimental advice, being rude and judgemental to clients.

[@nickpickle7665]

@@Maniaaazreally shady stuff

[@angusgus123]

That clears up zilch ​@@nickpickle7665

[@ChrisDuffy_82]

You can’t really go in the comments of a podcast like this without posting facts

[@mr_yoru5834]

From my own experience, as someone who quite enjoys psychedelics, I do not think they're something everyone should just jump into. I think if you're someone who has a lot of negative stuff bottled up or if you're someone who is tightly wound and can't just relax and go with the flow of the experience then chances are high that it will do more harm than good.

[@PrincipalSkinner3190]

Good point, I was fortunate enough to be in a good mindstate when I tried them. I didn't realize how much potential there could be for a bad trip until much later. That said as an athiest, they certainly opened my mind to higher being that I would have never reached if I never tried them.

[@NoFeckingNamesLeft]

It can put the negative stuff into focus and lay the foundation for improvement. It’s all about the frame you choose going into it.

[@Valorince]

It's based off the person more than it is the drug. I agree. However, some people NEED that experience in order to change those aspects of themselves. As the other guy said, "puts it into focus" and can help people organize things in their mind.

[@wj2036]

Yeah, it can be dangerous for some people. Ive found that most often it's people who are naive, or just not very smart, who end up ruining their mind through psychedelics. They seem to lose what little grasp they had on reality

[@CzarDodon]

Sam Harris needs to try Bach on acid

[@SpaveFrostKing]

Interesting how some KZbinrs get demonized for accepting a BetterHelp partnership, while for others, like Alex, nobody seems to care.

[@Doozy_Titter]

Betterhelp is old news, no one cares. I won't ever use it and I don't care about it

[@TJ_Gonser]

We all gotta make money unfortunately sometimes ethics can be pushed. Idk what to believe anymore

[@clubadv]

Better help was such a waste of time and money. Therapy seems built for women

[@matthewwatson5029]

@@clubadv Therapy is not built for women. The reason it feels this way is because a massive part of therapy is opening up about your feelings. Since men are often told to bottle up our feelings and not talk about them, such as being told to, "suck it up", "stop being a pussy"and "be a man", this has caused men to be extremely out of practice with describing how we feel. I agree that the Better Help app specifically is a waste of money, but actual in-person therapy is extremely helpful.

[@facelessdrone]

The fact you think therapy is for women is why you need therapy, dude.... ou shouldn't be denying yourself basic human. Needs because of one chromosome... this is borderline eating disorder type shit "NO!! I CANT DO THAT, ID RATHER DIE!!! WHAT IF I LOOK WRONG!??!?!?!"

[@umehchisom603]

Just started meditating using Sam's Waking Up app and it's been a profound journey discovering myself in new ways.

[@zacharyholley9520]

Seek and ye shall find, structure is obviously always helpful. Meditation is for rich people who have time for it, some people have to wake and go to work

[@kerzcs]

@@zacharyholley9520 That's a very bad way to look at it. Everyone has 20 minutes a day to meditate or do something else for self-improvement.

[@ande5460]

​@@zacharyholley9520waking up meditations are just 10 minutes. Pretty much anyone can find 10 minutes in their day.

[@transcendentalarts5942]

​@@zacharyholley9520but you don't have a problem using phone all day do you. Meditate on days you're off

[@adamlucina]

​@@zacharyholley9520not enough time is just not enough priorities period. Nobody is busy every waking hour of the day.

[@vaporock]

Always lose a smidge of respect for any creator if they start monologuing about mental health and then plug BetterHelp.

[@connorbooth7207]

Why?

[@vaporock]

@@connorbooth7207 They exploit and scam a large amount of people suffering from mental health issues and take a lot of their money without providing proper support. It's been well-known for years now but KZbinrs still continue to sell it.

[@nigelnyoni8265]

🤔

[@nobodyofimportance3922]

One should exercise extreme levels of caution when taking something that alters your perception of reality as profoundly as psychedelics do. Although they can be positively transformative when used in the right context and the right way, it must be said that they are not without their risks. HPPD, PTSD, and depersonalisation/derealisation are very real dangers that need to be taken into account when weighing up the cost/benefit ratio of taking psychedelics. If you are someone who is considering taking something like LSD, Mushrooms, DMT, or something of that nature, I would urge you to seriously reflect on the weight of such a decision. If your family has a history of psychotic illnesses, if you can't be sure the drug you're taking is actually the drug you're taking (blotter paper and pills could literally contain any substance), if you can't trust anyone to look after you during the experience, or if there are any other tangible uncertainties that may pose a risk to your safety, don't take them.

[@Mariana-pe8hw]

yes yes. There HAS to be more awareness on its dangers. Its not all roses and rainbows for everyone, everyones brain works so differently.

[@davidloveday8473]

I agree entirely (though Im not even sure I'd go as far as you on potential benefits for some, I am more of the Hitchens school about psychedelics at best being mere escapism). Vitally important that your point about potential dangers is made. Irresponsible that it's not said in the video. And especially troubling that Sam here advocates "spending a lot of time doing this", without any accompanying caveats anywhere in the video as to risk.

[@clacclackerson3678]

@@davidloveday8473 It's not for everyone. For many it is the most profound experience of their lives.

[@nobodyofimportance3922]

@@davidloveday8473 They have shown promise in the realm of neuroplasticity and the treatment of specific mental disorders. However, this is when they are used in a controlled, medical context with doctors and other safety measures instituted. That being said, I'm not necessarily against recreational use, but it's important that people make an informed decision about these things. If people want to take them knowing the risks involved, then fine. But if people aren't aware of the risks and decide to take them anyway, that can have disastrous consequences. That is why it is important to educate people and to study these compounds more, rather than to just say 'these are bad don't take them', because people are going to take them, it's simply a matter of whether they are educated about the risks or not. To use an analogy, people are going to have sex regardless of what the government thinks about it. But it is better for them to be aware of STDs, safe sex, and to have access to contraceptives so as to minimise the risk as much as possible, rather than to demand that everyone be abstinent

[@davidloveday8473]

​​@@nobodyofimportance3922i dont think we're in disagreement about the need for full education and information. EDIT I'm with you to a point as to it being up to each individual to decide whether to take psychedelics for recreational use (in the same way it's up to each individual to do loads of other things that could be of no value or even have detrimental effects). But with some important caveats. The caveats include that the individual has to have capacity to make a fully informed decision: I don't think kids, for example, have that capacity and so I dont think someone providing psychedelics to a kid can invoke the kid's autonomy to absolve themselves of responsibility for any negative impacts the kid may suffer. And even where the person taking psychedelics does have capacity to make the choice, then while it might be up to them to choose, their autonomy in that respect doesn't absolve them from responsibility for the negative impacts that choice may have on others. If taking psychedelics affects me negatively to the point that I am rendered incapable (temporarily or otherwise) from looking after my kids or other people dependent on me, then I remain fully responsible for the negative impacts others may suffer from my taking psychedelics. In that sense one's autonomy over whether to take psychedelics is never unbridled. Since I happen to believe that we all live in a society where each of us is to some extent dependent upon society and on our fellow members of society - however small that dependency may become the more distant the relationship is - I don't believe that any of us has unbridled freedom to take psychedelics regardless of the consequences.

[@shadw4701]

Psychedelics, meditation and dreamwork (not the woo kind) are the best ways to learn more about yourself

[@undercoveragent9889]

'Better Help'? lol Define 'intellectual honesty', Alex.

[@TheActualCorrectOpinion]

Alex is not intellectually honest.

[@jacobtoomey3141]

Better help is a scam disappointed in you Alex

[@Sal3600]

How is it a scam?

[@TheGeneralJos]

​@Sal3600 My therapist (not through better help) was talking with me about her friends who are counselors and therapists who have told her that Better Help toes the line of legality. Counselors and therapists are licensed by the state (in the US), and can only practice in those states they're licensed with. Apparently Better Help places therapists with individuals regardless of location. And you know, I can't confirm that to be true, but assuming that's is the case, I see two issues. The first is the obvious one I think, but they're providing care where they're not licensed and risking revocation of their license. The second, less apparent issue, is that, at least in the US, licensed therapists also have to know the laws and regulation surrounding the practice of medicine/psychology in those specific states. Unknowingly violating the rules in which the patient lives could harm not just the therapist's career, but the patient. Another point, I don't think it's unreasonable to think the following is true, but when therapists sign up with Better Help, in the terms and conditions of the contract/employment, I bet Better Help removes themself as a care provider, and that it's the therapists responsibility to provide professional, licensed care. But I don't think BH can be expected to take on any of that responsibility. Their business model is connecting therapists and patients, not provide therapy services. But, in the attempt to make therapy services accessible, they are putting therapists at risk of malpractice. These issues are the largest, I think. I also think BH is doing good in society to destigmatize therapy services by advertising so much. Hearing more about therapy definitely normalized the concept. I also think they have the very difficult problem to solve of trying to have a large enough pool of therapists to match to patients in such a short time. Mismatching the state issuing licensure and the patient's address makes that pool a little easier to manage. Some other concerns I've heard is that because finding a therapist, and worse I think, the on-demand switching of therapists is such a advertised feature, the effect on the quality of care could suffer because you have to essentially start from 0 every time you switch therapists, making no real progress. The last concern I have is that services like Better Help are so new, the hasn't had time to catch up. I think this is especially a problem because their advertising does not make it clear they're not the care providers. They don't make it clear enough in my opinion they're essentially a "dating service" for finding therapy.

[@JakeJLivingston]

Betterhelp has been amazing for me

[@intello8953]

I mean most therapies are scams 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@Endemion01]

If he knew i doubt he'd promote it.

[@oswinhull4203]

Sam has such a way of making me see things more clearly or convincing me of something through analogy.

[@momchi98]

I still haven't watched the whole video, but just felt like sharing my own experience. I've tried LSD a few months back. And two different patches 1 hour apart even, because I was stupid and thought I could handle a second small little paper piece. It did make me experience THE MOST SURREAL experiences ever in my entire life so far (25 years old, so not that much, but still something). Ego death was real, sober I can barely even remember how exactly it felt let alone before I even tried it. It wasn't at all an out of body experience, but I felt like there was a literal rhythm to the universe around the same tact as a heartbeat and that everyone, as in EVERY LIVING THING, even the people in cars outside, are moving with it. Time had a framerate, it wasn't continuous and I thought everyone knew what I thought and weirdly interpreted everything they said as if it was confirmation of that. The scary part is that it felt almost like what I imagine schizophrenia feels like. Understanding logically this is just hallucinations or your mind playing major tricks, but it felt so convincing and real and I let myself feel it thoroughly at some point, stopped trying to withold it with logic because I could feel what was to come. Not like predicting the future, but the sheer experience of it all, I didn't want something as boring and dull as logic to stop me from experiencing true emotion and let myself delve into unreality like I rarely due nowadays. The world around me responded to my internal emotions almost literally and again, it felt like I shared my consciousness with everyone else. With how time felt almost like an illusion and ego death I thought that when I die I would just be reborn as one of my friends around me and eventually experience the same exact night but seeing myself from their eyes. It did feel like I unlocked knowledge only a god should have power over and did feel like life was more than it objectively was. My emotions were running really high. But just like all my other emotions that were pretty easily provable wrong to me when I was high I could see that even the small religious awakening I felt was a sham. I do not at all regret my trip, the low points were really trying to drag me down, but I consciously fought it off and the positive thoughts also made the world around me more beautiful. I once saw myself in the mirror and thought I was rapidly aging and internally was thinking this is because I was taking a harmful drug. LSD really had basically no chronic effect from what I can tell and wouldn't easily recommend it to anyone,but with caution and ESPECIALLY a good social circle of friends that care about you is pretty much a must if you want it to feel enjoyable. But I felt reinvigorated afterwards, multiple times I thought of all my flaws but at the end I thought "Before I am reborn as the rest of my friends I have to deal with this body and mind I have now with all the flaws. But it's worth it, I respect myself, I got into my passion, physics, got my master's, found a well paying job. With all my flaws I still managed to do well in life using my mind. I respect my soul!". I don't even believe in a soul, but saying identity just does not convey how profound and truly emotional it felt. So yeah, psychedelics can make you feel the divine, but also so much more than just that. And sadly you do quickly realise it was all in your head, your mind just wrongly intepreting signals from the world around us, just like the waviness of every corner of every object and the patterns I saw were just illusions from a brain whose neural pathways have been intercepted. Still hard to believe two small flimsy papers that weren't even soggy with LSD could make me feel things that are so difficult to convey with words. Nothing has compared to it so far, truly! It felt like the wonder and high on life feeling a 4 year old with a hyperactive imagination could feel. And considering I miss my child brain immensely, real life sucks balls, I would maybe even try it again at some point. But this is not alcohol or cigarettes, it's something you take at MOST once a month, better if even less often imo.

[@theCommentDevil]

Thats what I'd call an excellent first trip

[@bike4aday]

"...your mind just wrongly intepreting signals from the world around us, just like the waviness of every corner of every object and the patterns I saw..." And like the solidity, locality, and separation we see while sober. I think illusion exists in both psychedelic and sober states. Sorting out the illusion is much trickier than taking a drug or not. We cannot exclude any phenomena from investigation.

[@arnaspuidokas5464]

Incredible description. And your experience mirrors my own very well. While you're tripping, even as an atheist, you feel as though the concept of a god doesn't even scratch the surface of what true spirituality even means. In a single moment, you realise that what we perceive as the cold, rigid Universe and that transcendental state of being are both weaved together in such a perfect fashion that it becomes the single most beautiful thing you could ever experience. Give shrooms a go, but do your research beforehand, of course. If you've not heard, the feelings of spirituality are much higher than on LSD.

[@momchi98]

@@arnaspuidokas5464 I've genuinely considered it because a friend of mine had the same opinion of mushrooms. Ofcourse I will look at proper dosage and have to have that day and the day after completely free from work and any socialising with family members. I ain't going to go unprepared into such matters. But so far I am not actively trying to find them. If the occasion happens that the same friend offers some while I am on vacation in my hometown we can go to the park and trip with him and anyone else that wants to come from my friend group. And whilst I am highly skeptical of religion and truly understand that drugs don't reveal stuff to you necessarily, they just break the proper function of our neurons until we perceive reality not as it is (though obviously we've long known our basic senses can also be tricked and don't perceive everything), but something much weirder and more internal to ourselves. But I would still let myself experience it for its own sake. The feelings and emotions I would presume like LSD are gonna be incredibly unique and more exciting than ordinary sober adult reality. I want to truly understand why religious people truly believe in a God in a world that clearly shows no signs of him except for garbage arguments from feelings like "Oh, but trees are pretty, must be god" or "Well life would not be worth living if god isn't real and doesn't love us". Especially the last person is so close to what I consider the most obsjective, logical truth, life is UTTERLY meaningless, it does not matter if you have children or not to the world at large, nor if you kill yourself now or not. And that can lead to nihilism at first, but with time you understand that this means we can make up our own meaning of life. If everyone did so society will experience struggle ad it depends on a controllable, predictable population, it's why religion has been so universally popular throughout history even if different cultures have different gods with different values. I'd rather live a short overall meaningless life that is free (do not care about fitting in or having children to please my parents or any of that trash) than to live caged by manmade make-believe just like 5 year olds do, except religion demands respect while you can just laugh and play along with a 5 year old for the fun of it whilst giving 0 respect to their fantasies as arguments/explanations of reality and the human condition.

[@digitalscale76]

​@@arnaspuidokas5464thats absolutely subjective. I find tryptamines to be way less spiritual than lysregic. Tryptamines x acid is also fun. Mdma combined with either is even better.

[@theCommentDevil]

Hallucinogenics can change your whole perspective on things, and have played a huge part in who i am today. But it depends on your environment, state of mind, who youre with etc

[@SevenPr1me]

I'm an atheist, and I've done LSD, DMT and psilocybin. I don't think the experiences I've had on drugs are any more real than the experiences I have in dreams.

[@JHeb_]

I don't know about your personal experience but I don't think the comparison is appropriate, at least in a sense that there is a very different amount of 'sobrierty' of mind between both these states. The thing about the psychedelic experiences is not about how real are the visual changes. I don't think that it is relevant at all.

[@WH-hi5ew]

Am not sure what "real" means in this context - both dreams and psychedelics involve altered states of consciousness. Meditation prior to psychedelics like LSD I found can more easily give rise to ego-death experience. Meditation as a preparation for ayahuasca makes you learn much more in my experience and have more issues resolved. As ever set and setting are important. If you are doing shrooms at a party it's different from doing ayahuasca in the Peruvian jungle with a trained shaman and a keen idea as to what you want to work on. Personally having done recreational drugs & psychedelics and intentional psychedelics - I would say the latter is much more fruitful.

[@catbranchman01]

What doses?

[@Raphael4722]

I 100% agree. I found the psychedelic experiences I had very interesting and enjoyable, but I cannot say they prove anything (if I'm being intellectually honest). Psychedelics are a bit overrated.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@Raphael4722 Depends how you use them in my experience. Thats why traditional cultures who use psychedelics dont use them recreationally but ceremonially and with significant preparation.

[@ruthvermeulen2098]

Honestly I’ve done lsd and it was a very heavy but good experience. But I don’t really want to experience it again, it’s very fulfilling but also emotional. It’s really not something you should regularly do. Only a few people can actually trip often without it being problematic or causing major mental issues. A lot of people should just not do it because the risk is to high. Ofc a lot of people can try a trip very sporadically and have a good experience but you shouldn’t underestimate it. If you really want to try and feel like you would be fine I would say enjoy it but don’t overdo. Less is more.

[@pH-LIVE]

AHH, I didn't even get to the music part yet. Amazing.

[@kurtcrean]

Wow a nice discussion about mental health followed by a better help sponsor is wild.

[@y_social_]

All I can say is that Sam Harris and the waking up app have absolutely changed my life over the last year. I recommend everyone try mediation for at least a week seriously.

[@austin9809]

How has it changed? What improvements happened for you?

[@rorybessell8280]

​@@austin9809I'm not gonna answer for him, obviously but it's been a similar story for me. The most remarkable change is spending less time ruminating over things that frustrate, stress, or annoy me. I am now able to rest and enjoy consciousness prior to things happening, so that when something is stressful, I can simply observe my feeling of stress come and go such that I'm not stressed for any longer than it's useful. This means I'm able to bring genuine attention to whatever else I do without being dragged down by the stressor in my life

[@AmiraAroraOfficial]

Would love to watch Swami Sarvapriyananda on your podcast !

[@chaosenergy1990]

My piano teacher said, “The Goldberg Variations were impossible to write, but he somehow wrote it”.

[@mmeis2389]

I took 1 pscilocibin cap, and had a very mind opening trip. So I asked myself, if an American Indian during a manhood quest took 30 caps and spend 3 days alone in the wild, what would he see - pretty sure it would be labelled "god".

[@threestars2164]

A good argument against religious experiences, sadly the religious will listen to none of that.

[@mmeis2389]

@@threestars2164 There obsession for zero knowledge is what finally made me see what religion is. Mass consciousness = Mass control, or so it seems. Now media manipulation and all the bad actors. Even colleges are now there target - in the name of religions?? Sad.

[@David-kx7tz]

@@threestars2164Huh? Do you differentiate between religious and spiritual experiences? Religion describes a system 😊

[@threestars2164]

1: The development and spread of religions are influenced by factors such as geography, culture, historical contingency, and cultural transmission. 2: If the past were altered such that human populations were redistributed randomly across the world, the development and spread of religions would be significantly different. 3: Therefore, it is unlikely that any specific religion would remain unchanged or could be true if the past were altered in such a manner.

[@robbie9629]

There's a very interesting book written by Henry Maudsley in 1886 'Natural causes and supernatural seemings' where he explains how various religious practices can mimic drug use. The results being seemingly 'transcendental' you can find a copy on line for free,

[@WH-hi5ew]

The reverse is true also... various drugs can give you spiritual experiences found in religions. I had an unexpected and powerful experience on LSD once... years later I did a MA in religion specialising in Buddhism. It turns out that experience that I had had is described exactly as I had it in one of the Tibetan tantra's. Was the body shrinking into the size of a rice grain and then exploding... the Tibetans call this "Fire going into water". I had cheated my way there, a short-cut, probably to less benefit but it let me know that these things are real experiences and not make-believe.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@WH-hi5ew i had a very mild experience doing the wim hoff breathing exercise... my whole body was buzzying and i had a sense of mild euphoria for about half an hour (how to tell how much time actually passed). maybe similar to kundalini yoga? - just from what i hear🤷‍♂don't have a masters in it or anything

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@360.Tapestry Wim Hof I think used breathing from yoga traditions too, including Tibetan Buddhist Tantra. The completion stage of the kundalini experience is incredibly intense and involves ego-death and rebirth. I'd imagine the Tibetan monks and yogis doing it years ago would have done these practices intensively for years to get there. So I can see how doing Wim Hof breathing could definitely have an effect.

[@zacharyb2723]

​@@360.Tapestry wim hoff breathing will do that - if done right its intense euphoria that feels very good afterwards instead of drained. and the cold immunity is real, you can go out naked in an ice storm and feel great. its the same soul warming fire breathing some monks do, supposedly discovered independently.

[@Hunter-lm8fe]

I'm was a hardcore atheist. I tried shrooms one time took 7 grams and felt during my trip that I came in contact with ultimate reality and that I was ultimate reality and that all life was contected and was ultimate reality. It profoundly changed me so much for the better I stopped a 25 year pack a day cigarette smoking habit and quit drinking also. I still don't think there's an afterlife and don't follow any religion, but I think there's an ultimate reality and all life is connected. I am you and you are me kind of feeling. My only regret is I wish I would have tried shrooms sooner. My overall sense of well-being dramatically improved also.

[@threestars2164]

Huh?? And did it ever occur to you the only reason you consider these utterly mundane and banal ideas "profound" is because the drugs impair your cognitive abilities?

[@AWT8900]

Pls pass this info onto Dawkins

[@canyildiz5966]

You keep saying ultimate reality but what does that mean??

[@TheActualCorrectOpinion]

I had a very emotional experience too, but I don't take shrooms. In my opinion, I think it was just my brain producing large amounts of serotonin and hypo-frontality.

[@Hunter-lm8fe]

@canyildiz5966 Good question, for me I guess it was like a higher part of my consciousness I hadn't experienced before.

[@kennypowers1945]

lol I’m an atheist and I’ve done psilocybin and had a good time. A few times were introspective and in deep thought, but overall I come out feeling good. I can see on high doses how one may confuse being really high with seeing god 😂😂

[@raemir]

On high enough doses, one returns to and aligns with "God".

[@PrettyLittle_Piss]

@@raemirwhich one?

[@raemir]

@@PrettyLittle_Piss The One.

[@PrettyLittle_Piss]

@@raemir what about the machine elves?

[@NoFeckingNamesLeft]

I find even on mid doses there’s a distinct feeling that one is acquiring new information or experiencing a revelation of what the world really is, something you don’t get on more recreational drugs. Then on a high dose there’s an additional feeling that this information is being revealed to the you by a distinct, palpable external entity. There’s often a feeling of continuity between you, the thing and the universe, but never that the revelation is simply arising normally from within your own mind. IMO the brain is a set of disparate systems that normally run an illusion of seamless “one-ness”, and this feeling is simply that system breaking down akin to split brain patients or even schizophrenia, but I can see why some are convinced it’s god or some kind of extra-dimensional entity.

[@lopsidedwombat]

Shrooms have definitely changed my life for the better. It's hard to describe the feeling besides it breaks your patterns and feels like the guardrails are gone. Meditation can also be great of course. I have a bit of a hard time accepting meditation giving the same experience

[@cherubic_axiom]

ad for betterhelp is a big L

[@tulpas93]

So... 50 in Roman numerals?

[@cherubic_axiom]

@@tulpas93 the promotion

[@tulpas93]

@@cherubic_axiom Yeah, sure. I was being playful - not serious.

[@pbradgarrison]

You can't get a should out of a mushroom.

[@crimsonguy723]

You can get a shouldn't though.

[@S.D.323]

People are finally asking the real questions

[@noahjohnson8740]

Petition for Sam to listen to TOOL on acid

[@naferemix]

Meditation is invaluable! Even for, or perhaps especially for atheists. We’re all made of the same stuff. Humans, animals, plants and natural substances/objects all unbelievably repurposed since the beginning (if there was one) and that is beyond religion, beyond spirituality. Psychedelics seem to bridge the gap and put us in touch with those universal thoughts and feelings. Some ‘find’ god through them, but personally I think god/gods/religion is only ever people accepting the nearest guess at how or why we’re here. It’s so much deeper than that, and rather ironically, meditation and natural psychedelics seem to accelerate us towards religion or past religion and into a more open spiritual realm.

[@human5715]

Talk to Bernardo Kastrup Alex, that would be interesting

[@DaddyGringuito]

Hitchens used a drug (alcohol) daily to escape.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

I see Hitchens as a rhetorical and ideological figure, I like hitchens but I don’t think I’d consider him an intellectual on the issues he speaks about

[@360.Tapestry]

@@jacksonelmore6227 nor a role model of any sort

[@NoFeckingNamesLeft]

@@360.Tapestry I’d consider him a role model or oration, bravery, curiosity and commitment to truth. How many of today’s nominal journalists would undergo waterboarding to settle a debate? If he were still around his takes would be continually bluntly honest and interesting at minimum.

[@joecurran2811]

And cigarettes

[@sephnet5881]

Also what killed him was cigarettes. If being incredibly well read in various topics doesnt make you intellectual idk what does.

[@WasatyPanKazimierz]

Stop with this Uber for therapists cancer.

[@threestars2164]

Reducing the activity of the mind's critical faculties would lead someone to believe in religion, yes, though I am not sure how this is anything but a staggering refutation of religion? The usual cognitive processes involved in questioning, analyzing, and evaluating information may be temporarily diminished under the influence of drugs contributing to the perception of profundity. Though if it was really as profound as you think, shouldn't it be "obvious" to everyone when our critical faculties are active?

[@majav15mg]

Dude, your comment is utter nonsense. Why do you think that “our critical faculties” are DIMINISHED when taking a drug? When some drugs clearly and obviously do the very fucking opposite. And as if all drugs were the same anyway. And not everyone has the same “critical faculties”. You already left me a comment and I knew as soon as I read, that you have no clue of what you’re talking about.

[@extrullorgd4444]

The problem is, our brains didn't evolve for us to perceive objective reality. They evolved to help us survive and reproduce. In order for us to gain truly rational thinking we need to escape from the established rational thinking patterns through, first, being aware of them. And in order for us to achieve that goal, we need to shut down the ego. During the trip you most likely won't understand anything. It is the rational thinking that comes after the experience that really gives you an insight into how our subjective experience truly works and how to perceive objective reality better.

[@leojansch7862]

Psychedelics gave me no awareness of spirituality, but a heightened awareness of particle physics.

[@shivadasa]

Relatable. ❤

[@f.2375]

could you elaborate?

[@jonathanhijlkema8247]

Not a big fan of recreational drugs, but Mdma has been my best experience when it come to drugs, and the only drug that I would like to take again. I'm not sure if everyone has the same experience, but I felt a deepening connection to my emotions after having taken Mdma, which felt great, especially for an individual that has a tendency to unconsciously control and suppress emotions. Have tried mdma on a few occasions, though always with friends and mainly at festivals, but never had a bad experience. Don't know if it is good to take alone or in a different setting, so can't speak to that.

[@davidmorgan5581]

ngl mdma is so funny

[@gixelz]

its not fun to take alone. you have so much social energy with nowhere for it to go. this coming from an introvert, too.

[@jonathanhijlkema8247]

@@gixelz I can imagine that.

[@1389Chopin]

Man - how does anyone live without the Brandenburg concertos

[@TheActualCorrectOpinion]

Ilove Bach

[@kenkaplan3654]

Saying one should judge the efficacy of meditation after 5 minutes is like saying one should master an instrument in one sitting. OK Sam went there. I am more and more impressed with Sam on these issues. He has a great talent as a communicator. Ram Dass had the same gift. check out some of his videos.

[@WH-hi5ew]

Agreed... it takes time to understand and develop proficiency.

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@WH-hi5ew And to let the system adjust to the kind of openness necessary. I think this is where Dawkins could not even begin to do this. His system is in a very closed intellectual loop.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@kenkaplan3654 He's advancing in years but I would have been very interested to see a TV show that had Dawkins learn meditation for a few weeks... including a 7 day retreat. Followed by say a 12 day/6 session stay in a Peruvian Ayahuasca lodge with trained shaman. I wondered if he would get it then!

[@kenkaplan3654]

@@WH-hi5ew I doubt it. One has to be karmically ready for these things. They are not a process of conscious will. It's not part of his soul contract. It apparently is a vital part of Sam's.

[@mobiustrip1400]

I found meditation good for racing thoughts and negative emotions in the mornings. At night time a few whiskies will accomplish the same.

[@pH-LIVE]

GOD, I Love these guys!

[@mailill]

If getting high (naturally by self suggestion techniques or otherwise) makes you a better person afterwards, by all means... But this is not something I have observed. On the contrary, people who get addicted to getting high, tend to enter a mental bubble - they often get harder to relate to (less genuine and less present), and seem to get more - not less - dysregulated over time. At least that's my experience. Meditation is _not_ about getting high, it's about being more present with whatever happens right now, good or bad, and of loosening the grip of the ego.

[@XRamenmaX]

I am someone who cannot visually hallucinate, I have tried multiple times with differing substances. I have a particular form of brain damage due to a 9-in nail going into my visual cortex at a very young age. I can have other forms of hallucinations like auditory or sensational, but visual hallucinations just can't happen with me.

[@harishkumarh8349]

Father of meditation......meditation means understanding your consciousness not begging for experience using drugs......Tiruvannmalai kingdom......Father and mother of all these philosophies in the world or center of the universe

[@JHeb_]

Meditation is a practice. Not entire lifestyle.

[@harishkumarh8349]

@@JHeb_ Meditation is not a practice...It is tool to understand pure consciousness....With eyes open or close...with fully concentrate or partly concenterate..you are the same consciousness....Nothing is going to change....Everything is appears in you the consciousness...

[@JHeb_]

@@harishkumarh8349 A tool that exists in a form of practice. Of course it is not a physical tool. It should be undertaken when sober, but previous psychedelic experiences do not invalidate meditational practices. In fact, if done reasonably, some may find it easier to go deeper in their own mind after having a glimpse to similar experiences while on psychedelics. That being said, there should be no dependance upon them to reach those states.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@JHeb_ unless someone chooses to make it

[@rorybessell8280]

​@@harishkumarh8349It's not about begging for a certain experience on psychedelics, it's about using them as a gateway to understand the deeper nature of consciousness. Just because it isn't meditation and sober reality, doesn't mean it's not useful. A deep meditation practice is far more powerful than psychedelics, but sometimes it needs them to fet started, and they can further enhance a meditation practice

[@manephewlenny6401]

Getting in touch with Spinoza's God is no bad thing.

[@SevenPr1me]

You don't "get in touch" with spinoza's god

[@hellomate639]

Heh! I like this comment because, as a former atheist, I love when people start seeing how much deeper and more beautiful God is than the "man in the sky" stuff. Religious lunatics do a huge, huge amount of damage to people's spiritual growth, and they also trivialize so many things that are incredible and profound, reducing it to some fear driven thing. Also... I still like Sam Harris. He always struck me as the most logically coherent and intellectually honest of the bunch, which is why I am here.

[@hellomate639]

It's worth noting too that I conceptualize God as a sort of hyper-reality because of infinite regression. That is, it's more like the question of God's existence isn't even the right question when you're talking about "something" that originates the concept of existence.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@hellomate639 the modern portrayal of god in western society seems like a lazy personification of a truly fearsome, nurturing, simultaneously transcendent and primordial (alpha and omega) force or entity that we have been far too domesticated by "space age" creature comforts, conventions, and pop culture to even begin to comprehend

[@hellomate639]

@@360.Tapestry Modern culture, I do feel, is especially trivial and petty. There's always been triviality in the common life, but I think the problem is that triviality has been elevated in modernity. We can find the transcendent in physics, in consciousness, in the structure of the cosmos. I think it's important for people not to over-reduce those things even in a secular context. Like, even subjects as seemingly basic as rotational physics can challenge serious physicists. Continuum mechanics is so deep for something that we experience everyday. And, the things we experience and have equations for? It's still stunning that they act that way.

[@MadMathMike]

I am super embarrassed that I didn't know that Peter Hitchens was Christopher Hitchen's brother! 🤦‍♀️ To be fair, I hadn't actually heard of Peter until that recent interview fiasco (which Alex cleverly references at 5:42 😂).

[@WhoThisMonkey]

I'm atheist, ive done LSD, shrooms and a lot of MDMA. I definitely nearly lost my mind, but I held on, and I came back. Yes the experience is incredible, but the risks are high. I don't conclude the experiences were without, but more likely from within. I wouldn't recommend it, I certainly chamged everything about myself and I can't conclude if it was for the better or not. If anything, it made me aware of myself... But a little too much? And yes, you can reach it without drugs, drugs showed me how though.

[@oscarmudd6579]

NO.

[@TimothyEddy-lo4wv]

Alex, please talk to sheldon solomon on terror management theory. I'm loving his book so far.

[@goblinsdammit]

Except the thumbnail says "Should Richard Dawkins Try Psychedelics?" Well I think he's tried the God helmet lol.

[@hamster4618]

10:54 😂 I fear I would have used it up for fire wood and use of string to fish. I wanted a guitar when I was 10 and, when I got one, quickly learned I hated it. 20 years later I decided I was finally gonna learn to play the guitar. All grown up. Responsible and all that. I quickly learned I still hated playing the guitar 😂 and found it even less useful than learning to type blind. I gave the guitar to some kid with a guitar wish. Not gonna happen in my lifetime.

[@patrickgunning6923]

Don’t forget Hitchens was a product of the 60s, I bet he’s ran into it

[@exiledfrommyself]

What a silly question to ask. Those who want to probably will and those who don't want to probably won't.

[@kannix386]

everyone should.

[@bdo7915]

Drugs r a pathetic escapism... meanwhile a raging alcoholic. 😅 guess we r all the emperor with no clothes at times.

[@hartyewh1]

He was rather joviaĺ when drunk. Nothing raging about it ;)

[@christopherhamilton3621]

What about the current research on therapeutic applications?

[@bdo7915]

@@hartyewh1 yes, I love him as well 😄🙌

[@bdo7915]

@@christopherhamilton3621 of alcohol? Lol

[@360.Tapestry]

@@christopherhamilton3621 i'm sure someone could design a therapy around scorpion stings if they were so inclined

[@nickbowd]

Bach is pretty damn amazing!

[@hmoen]

Alex, please interview Francesca Stavrakopoulou.

[@Jesper-bl2ns]

That's actually the best suggestion I have seen in comments. She is absolutely fantastic - and her book: "God - An anatomy: was my best read in 2023.

[@bockerwright4132]

What about Peter Hitchens? You should ask him if he'd try some.

[@jimthompson1777]

Easy answer - Yes

[@LadyPelikan]

I'd like to hear what a skeptical neuroscientist has to say on this subject.

[@ms-fk6eb]

"I'm skeptical" - the neuroscientist

[@templecreations2351]

im a theist turned atheist… through the psychedelic experience 😁 they are extraordinary psychological and sensory experiences. helped. me a bunch.

[@darrex999]

"theist turned atheist… through the psychedelic experience " Now we know why they're illegal 🤣

[@templecreations2351]

@@darrex999 i held on to my sense of morality, though i let go of the religious compulsions 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@darrex999]

@@templecreations2351 yep, me too... When I speak with what one might call 'religious people' and they humbly inquire of my transition out from their realm (I used to be heavily religious and could 'see off a horse' so to speak), I now say I simply 'leveled up and outgrew it'. I might also say "I used to believe in invisible friends, then I grew up."

[@NoFeckingNamesLeft]

@@darrex999 many people go the other way through psychedelics. It tends to be quite a personalized experience and can bring one’s blind spots into focus.

[@moesypittounikos]

Hasnt Dawkins tried paracetamol? This is the futility of that word, drug.

[@f.2375]

i have no idea what they are talking about - is sam harriss saying he believes in god after taking mdma and meditating?

[@trapez77]

It’s pretty pretentious to say that everyone that had a bad experience with MDmA must not have taken real MDmA like how would you know?

[@billscannell93]

I don't see the point to mediation myself, either. What grand revelations and "understanding" could possibly be gained from sitting there with your eyes closed? It's not that I resist it--I would love it to "work"--but I'm not even clear on what is supposed to happen. (A self-induced mushroom or MDMA trip? No way.) It might work as a technique to get to sleep, but that's all I see in it. The only reason people want Dawkins to do drugs is because they think it will challenge his atheism. He's not going to change his mind about this, people. He might enjoy the sense of utter awe it can give you, though.

[@fouadnouioua7069]

Promoting drugs then promoting therapists, ohh that seems like a good step..

[@LogosFlow]

If I were Dawkins at this age I would give one last lecture then spend every day of the rest of my life drugged out in happy land.

[@TheActualCorrectOpinion]

That's pointless.

[@MrJesseBell]

No, it’s not that some people don’t get to see the metaphysical and others do. It’s not like playing music.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

Consider this: All natural things are supernatural And all supernatural things are natural

[@MrJesseBell]

@@jacksonelmore6227 after careful consideration, I have concluded that you are using word salad.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

@@MrJesseBell consider this: are you like one of those people, who are, seemingly incapable of eating salad?

[@MrJesseBell]

@@jacksonelmore6227 I’m a vegetarian

[@jacksonelmore6227]

@@MrJesseBell consider this: What if my previous consideration was a metaphor or analogy Also perhaps consider that: objective truth and subjective truth are One And perhaps even a third consideration: That when you consider such thought experiments, note that your evidence gleaned is proportional to the purity of good faith in which you undertake the consideration

[@jordanjohnson9415]

You are OBSESSED with DrUgZ!!

[@stevepayne5965]

Sam's a long-standing and experienced meditator, and knows perfectly well that especially for a total beginner nobody gets anything from five minutes of meditation, any more than a total beginner can pick up an instrument and play like a genius in five minutes. There are several issues that this raises. One is as any experienced meditator or musician knows, it's about putting the hours in - not during some free time at the weekend if you're lucky, but hours of practice day in and day out for a *very* long period of time before you reach a certain level of proficiency. (Who and how decides what that level of proficiency is, is a can of worms I can't and won't open here). Another is, as Sam said, untangling what is in itself simply a tool or technique, no more or less, for relaxation (which pretty well all of us could do with more of) and self-awareness from an avalanche of woo. Another is why some people - Dawkins certainly by the sound of it; possibly Hitch but he's not here to ask so I'm not going to guess - have an apparent gut reaction against trying it out for a reasonable length of time and to observe the results.

[@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC]

I think everyone should experience some type psychedelics. My experiences have been more on the _hardcore side,_ and they have definitely reshaped my world view on "Existence." I have also been an atheist and a theist at some point during my life, but experiencing psychedelics (along with other things) have compelled me to belong to neither camp. ... So, I don't think being an atheist or a theist really has anything to do with how you ideologically react to psychedelics.

[@giuseppersa2391]

Mdma is indeed a life changer 😊

[@Levaaant]

Destiny would talk at lengths about this, he did a 10.5g does for his first time

[@guaporeturns9472]

Atheist or not , everyone should try psychedelics

[@Reco_]

Alex you should do an Afterlife tier list! Make a List and rank all of the afterlife’s assumptions from best to worse

[@beter7886]

bro needs a clip channel

[@alst4817]

Makes sense that Sam isn’t moved by music. There’s something strange about that guy…

[@threestars2164]

fr

[@Maxrepfitgm]

I'm very hesitant to do anything that alters my perception of reality

[@bryandraughn9830]

Everyone says the same thing when they start tripping. "I didn't think it was gonna be like this." Because it's not like you think it would be. It really seems like you finally have a reality that's unaltered. You'd be surprised. I'm a big chicken but I enjoyed the experience every time. It's not quite as much of a big thing as many people try to make it. Just letting you know.

[@360.Tapestry]

don't drink. don't eat spicy food. don't exercise. don't sleep. don't even read

[@Atlashands26]

Being in a city alters your perception of reality. So does developing a mental condition or experiencing a near death situation. So does joining a cult. Everything alters your perception.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

Yeah right bro

[@threestars2164]

I guess sleep is not for you then?

[@T1000-f8v]

I started with no God, grew to deny God. Then I became God.

[@TheActualCorrectOpinion]

You are not God imo

[@T1000-f8v]

@@TheActualCorrectOpinion I most definitely am God, my God, I construct reality with my thoughts just like everyone else, we're all God, we're all one.

[@randomusername3873]

"obsessed with drugs"😂😂

[@gracie8435]

would like to see a female guest on the podcast, no fault of your own of course but much of the discourse on youtube that is philosophy related is very dominanted by males it is a shame

[@ElvisPresleyTouchedMe]

Like…i have? Shrooms and LSD a good few times. Acid days are behind me but still do shrooms once a year or so coz I always have a good time. Still an atheist. (And sorry Sam…MDMA isn’t gonna cut it)

[@TheCaptain610]

I'm not sure, psychedelics turned me into a Catholic.

[@grufgoinHAHAHA]

yeah and my Lsd trips caused me to spend all my money in casino and start hip hop carreer with weapons and hookers

[@davidwebber6314]

Noel Gallaghers looking well

[@AmazingTheScott]

Sam loves to prescribe wisdom like being patient or not reasoning yourself out of something like meditation but does not extend that same wisdom to religious realms despite benefitting from the same wisdom.

[@thewealthofnations4827]

If you need to be impaired, or encourage others to be impaired your morals are suspect.

[@360.Tapestry]

the case with dawkins seems to show how closed-minded each set can get when their confidence levels rise to the point of dogma - and the fear of stepping out into an unknown space from solid ground is too daunting i have been an agnostic most of my life. my parents are emotionally crippled (we do not come from a western culture) and they are not of exceptional intelligence or education. i have never felt the presence of god, despite my father being a pastor. but i knew deep down it is a pretty empty existence to keep going this way. i have undertaken a regime of regular trips under psilocybin over the past six months - and i can tell you that the spark of consciousness, whether it is actually alive out there in the universe or just a kernel that human beings carry within our subconscious, is who many regard as god. his voice is consistent, coherent, very real, and unlike anything you ever imagined. it comes from deep within and yet its love, wisdom, warmth, and goodness is clearly something other than you

[@kennypowers1945]

Guess that means I have a higher Intelligence than Dawkins in one area for once 😂. (Drugs)

[@360.Tapestry]

also: not recommended for the faint of heart, physically unhealthy, psychologically unsound, or any sane person ever - this is for crazies only🤷‍♂

[@GIGADEV690]

Basically you did drugs and had delusions and spreading delusions.

[@360.Tapestry]

@@GIGADEV690 and you have delusions stone cold sober and congratulate yourself on it

[@360.Tapestry]

@@GIGADEV690 and i'll do it again, too haha

[@cygnusustus]

Dawkins was wiser than Harris was.

[@louisehaley5105]

Perhaps Dawkins (and Hitch) are just too British to be moved by psychedelics and meditation. If Dawkins didn’t do drugs when he was at Berkeley during the swinging ‘60’s, it’s unlikely he’ll be tempted and to do so now.

[@El_Paracleto]

True he was 30 mins away in 67, so close, yet so far away...

[@darrex999]

i enjoy watching things like this. We seem to be threatened to not discuss these topics. It's as if we're paying the salaries of these clueless thugs that end up attacking us if we even dare to discuss these things. "Yeah, I've done drugs, and this is what I've experienced..." - precisely what is the exact problem with that?

[@BillyViBritannia]

I dont see how a drug induced experience hints at the experience being available without drugs. Yes the biology of the brain allows it but it means as much that you can achieve this through meditation as Arnold Schwarzenegger's picture means you can just do a few pushups and look like him. Not saying its not possible.

[@Peter-iz2lm]

Dr Dawkins just has no idea.

[@velkyn1]

with appropriate guidance, no reason not to. I found it interesting but not that impressive.

[@YouDaMANRAJ]

Everyone should try LSD if they want to. Not the kind of drug i would pressure anyone into but if you are curious definately try it

[@nikolajkrarup-os9gn]

Yes good idea

[@Joviex]

LOL, WUT? I am in both categories. The fuck difference does it make? None.