Should Wayland Be Stopped To Fix This Issue?

[@AshtonSnapp]

Schrodinger’s Wayland: It both is and is not ready until you examine it

[@ShadowManceri]

Eh, not quite. Schrödinger's thought experiment was to show how absurd it would be to believe into such thing. Not that it would be the case.

[@IvanStamenkovicSeemsIndie]

I looked, it's not ready!

[@vaisakh_km]

​@@ShadowManceriIkr.. it's absurd to think wayland ready/not_ready yet

[@Doctor_Glados]

@@ShadowManceribut that’s exactly the point of his comment. Wayland at the moment is both ready and not ready at the same time. Wayland is ready as a protocol, desktop environments have not yet reached feature parity with x11 yet so from the point of view of a user, wayland is not ready.

[@ShadowManceri]

@@Doctor_Glados But that's not even the superposition, it's just a category error where semantically two different things are presented as same thing; the protocol and composer.

[@NataNeverrain]

Accessibility is something that would be perfect target for public money grants.

[@vendetta.02]

wow its almost like GNOME recently got a large grant that they are using for (among other things) accessibility

[@bootmii98]

DoorDash should pay trademark royalties for the accessible input method that had the Dasher name first

[@CMDRSweeper]

@@bootmii98Apparently shadow banned / hidden comment. Everyone that uses the Dash name have to contribute... That includes GE, Bombardier DeHavilland / Viking, DoorDash, Dashy to name a few :D

[@blindpodcaster1863]

Being a screen reader user myself, I thought I'd clear something up here. Orca isn't totally unusable on Wayland. It's unusable in GTK 4 apps because GTK 4 isn't providing key grabs like GTK 3, and QT5 and 6. You can do all Orca commands if you're in a window or on the desktop of any environment where these toolkits are being used. Again, only if you're in a window including the desktop. Orca flat review and other such commands don't work in GTK 4, but basic usage such as tab, shift tab and arrow keys, that works. Caret navigation is being sorted out, but the other stuff in GTK 4 is going to be broken until Gnome sorts something out.

[@conan_kudo]

If the screen reader was completely unusable in Fedora KDE, I would have pulled the brakes and prioritized it accordingly. But I've been told (and in my limited testing, observed) that it works *okay* on Plasma Wayland (modulo GTK 4 applications, as you pointed out). Since there are few to no GTK 4 applications in Fedora KDE, it's not a concern I have.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@@conan_kudoThat's still pretty serious. I mean, is there an alternative that KDE users can use? If not, that could be a showstopper.

[@cameronbosch1213]

@@SecretAgentBartFargo Not on Fedora 40 though. This really should be pushed back until at least 41.

[@Daktyl198]

​@@cameronbosch1213Not sure what you mean? As I read it, it seems like KDE is the only one of the 2 main DEs that *does* support the screen reader. If anything, I'd be asking what alternative Gnome users can use, since KDE users seem to be able to utilize Orca fine.

[@gogudelagaze1585]

Sigh.. why is it that when something doesn't work well with others it's almost always Gnome related? :(

[@WMan37]

I had a family member who had Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis. If it weren't for on screen keyboards and high mouse sensitivity, she would simply not have been able to use a PC at all. Even outside of this extreme edge case, on screen keyboards are really nice to have for living room TVs. I hope this gets taken seriously.

[@alexstone691]

I felt this badly when using my laptop that has broken keyboard, no on-screen keyboard is something i miss a lot

[@tux_the_astronaut]

I remember when i had to be in a cast and on screen keyboard was my savior lol definitely something that needs to be fixed cuz without it i would of been doomed

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

It's only truly missing for Xwayland programs.

[@lVlonkberry]

​@@SecretAgentBartFargoThis. I use OSKs all the time and haven't had any major issues so far. Many OSK users are also touchscreen users, and Wayland's a much better choice for touchscreens.

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

@@lVlonkberry I have a touchscreen and it pinch zooms perfectly in Wayland on both GNOME and KDE

[@_sneer_]

14:38 IMO accessibility issue priority should not be reasoned based on the number of users that need it, because it will always be low but very needed by the people that need it. It should be mandatory for projects like Fedora.

[@EvanEdwards]

I don't know about Australia (or most countries), but in the US and I believe in Canada and most (all?) of Europe, it is also legally required if used in most public or corporate (including small business and non-profit) settings.

[@excidium666]

somebody has to pay developers to do it

[@_sneer_]

@@excidium666 yeah, IBM has the resources and Fedora is their experimental playground for kind of beta testing. They can pay.

[@_sneer_]

@@excidium666 IBM?

[@BrodieRobertson]

That would be nice but when a lot of your devs are volunteers they will work on what they want to work on

[@zBrain0]

I have a motor impairment and use sticky keys. I have often had the thought why are some of these accessibility features not baked directly into the kernel? I can't run strictly on a CLI interface without it being inside of x.

[@echobucket]

Wayland is like ipv6. Someday we'll all use Wayland. Just like someday we'll all use ipv6. I'll believe it when I see it

[@demanuDJ]

Most of regular users are using ipv6 if its available for connection because its preferred by default over ipv4 by modern OS 😋They just don't notice that because they have automatic fallback to ipv4 if ipv6 is not available. Many services adopted ipv6 and using it as the default, its way much better (no NAT overhead etc).

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

I sometimes forget to enable ipv4 after installing Arch because so many sites already use it by default.

[@ssokolow]

@@demanuDJ Unless they're using Firefox, in which case they're likely to encounter advice to disable IPv6 because, as I personally encountered when I finally enabled IPv6 after upgrading my router, Firefox's implementation of Happy Eyeballs is buggy.

[@ruroruro]

@@demanuDJ I guess a more accurate analogy would be "someday we'll all use ipv6only".

[@dfntlynotjorn]

That ipv6 thing was what forced me to remove macOS on my machine and install linux. Had a problem with rust's cargo complaining about the ssl thing and couldnt find an actual solution, so I was forced to install linux because it was really becoming annoying. After some more researching I found that I had to disable ipv6 to somehow mend the error. I did reinstall macOS and it did actually work but I was already liking linux at that time so, here I am, a proud linux user.

[@backup_hdd]

i disagree with the notion that "it probably comes down to numbers". if people take things like accessibility seriously - which i suppose many are at least trying to - they're not gonna look at the numbers and say "nah, only 0.1% of people will need this feature" for each one of the 100 accessibility-related features their software is lacking. now of course, in the open source world, it's very questionable whether there are enough people to actually tackle these issues, but when the projects are backed by corporations and organizations whose philosophy emphasizes inclusion and accessibility, i really, really hope they won't let it "come down to the numbers"

[@sharp14x]

There simply aren't the resources in open-source software to give these issues priority. People don't program with them in mind, they aren't at all familiar with them or the software around them, and there isn't enough manpower or interest. The only work comes from temporary interest in these issues which eventually falters and the work done decays.

[@TimBell87]

The problem is if you stack up 1000 0.1%s you eventually reach 100% And both Wayland and Fedora seem to really like stacking 0.1%s

[@geooot]

You are right that volunteers are ultimately going to work on things they want to do. Since volunteers wont do it, advocacy groups (like non-profits) should take up the work with funding, managing, and supporting developers to focus on accessibility. Funding is obviously needed to motivate developers to focus on it, especially since its not going to be something they would normally do in their free time. Mangement is needed to make sure that progress is made. Finally, support is needed to make sure that proposed code or spec changes has backing from a community.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

That's not going to happen either. It worked on X11, so either Wayland makes it work or we stay on X11.

[@act.13.41]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 It worked on X11 because it was not secure. It will eventually work on Wayland AND you can stay on X11 until that time.

[@Coopertronics]

".. held together with hopes and prayers .." ~ Chewing gum and string.

[@Beryesa.]

Well, Fedora's hurry-scurry moves are one of the rare things that make any progress in Gnome MRs 😅

[@jamescampbell6728]

I know people are mad at Fedora for making too many big leaps towards new features, but without them we will probably NEVER have wayland ready. The only way to figure out issues is the push them upstream and figure out circumstances like this

[@646464mario]

100%! Fedora has always been the first to test out and force new features onto the Linux community anyway so this is nothing new. I do not know why people are upset about this when they have a history of doing things like this and if they don’t like it, they can always go to a different distro and then come back later. It’s not really that big of a deal and benefits the community in the long run anyway.

[@Sunrise-d819i2]

I have used Linux for 1 year and 6 months. Wayland entirely destroyed my GPU drivers, and X11 wouldn't have loaded properly after the switch to Wayland. Sadly, had to make a switch back to windows in order for my GPU to work properly

[@RustyLoaf]

​@@Sunrise-d819i2 That shouldn't be the case. The presence of a Wayland session shouldn't affect your X session. Are you sure you actually switched back to X properly? If so, it sounds more like your graphics drivers were borked completely independent of Wayland.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​​@@Sunrise-d819i2 I hate to say this, but MAYBE you shouldn't be on Windows just because of a GPU. Is it an Nvidia Maxwell or Pascal GPU (GTX 9 or 10 series) on a desktop?

[@Sunrise-d819i2]

@@RustyLoaf @RustyLoaf kinda of both, its very odd. I use a AMD 6700 XFX swift 10 GB. soon my distro pushed Wayland, None of my ports on my gpu works, I had to turn on my Igpu (amd 5600G) and that fixed the issue. I tried a clean install and the boot loading switches from 1440P to 720P within boot prompts of loading the kernel for the Live ISO it quits at "loading user management" My screen turns entirely black and loader caught hung/freeze. Neofetch says the GPU (6700) is installed. Although anytime I try to use my gpu unless built in IGPU/HDMI port on the motherboard the boot freezes both installed/ISO's that has wayland. The only distro that works is ones that don't have Wayland an only X11. I have tried 3 distros Garuda is bricked, cachyOS works until it randomly freezes, Ubuntu refuses to even load from ISO like Garuda. all distros run normally and boot perfectly only if i use the HDMI port on my motherboard using the built-in IGPU. I have tried Ubuntu 23.10 legacy, and it works with the ports on my 6700. Although any distro that has Wayland refuses to boot normally or freezes. in depth details about the screen response. My monitor constantly turns on and off with black screen then turns off with 45-30 sec intervals after it displays black picture, it turns on and repeats. Stays on for 15 secs with the black screen, then disconnects, turning my monitor into standby mode. Steps I have tried: turning off uefi, TPM, and secure boot. Switching the gpu to bottom PCI, trying all the ports on my gpu with each restart, trying to reinstall mesa drivers for amd while running it though my igpu, formating my OS drive then reinstalling through my igpu as boot will never start properly. the only thing in common is when the distro has wayland at all it refuses to even function.

[@gotoastal]

Wayland will not be ready for me & my use cases until there is support for color management for content creation/design as well as DisplayLink support for docks.

[@tomaszgora4353]

I hit that roadblock yesterday when I needed to cause browser refresh from a script and I found out it is not possible by sending a key to a specific client. On hyprland I can hack around by having global pass of ctrl+F5 to a browser triggered by dotool or wtype but those piss me of as they are not returning input focus properly and after the action I can't interact with the browser until I retake control by hitting super or any binding involving super (for whatever reason). Yes, there are rough edges in automation on Wayland :/

[@RustyLoaf]

With the Sovereign Tech Fund money, GNOME seems to be chugging away at a much faster pace on their accessibility issues, so hopefully that goes a long way in resolving GNOME's lackluster support with more accessibility-focused portals.

[@deathdogg0]

I use Orca with the Mate desktop, as even the Gnome desktop, which is supposed to be one of the best for accessibility, has a ton of issues. If Orca were to stop working, Linux would be very much unusable. Linux is fast, simple (as in it does exactly what you tell it to), and to be forced to use Windows or Mac OS just because the accessibility isn't used by that many people would just be... Insert whatever explatives you want here. Suffice it to say, very very bad. Wayland in general should have all this fixed before it is made the default on any distros that are public facing, i.e. ubuntu and other such distros. Experimental distros are just that, experimental and forward thinking, so it makes sense that not all of these things will work. But for everything else, accessibility should be a top priority on everyone's mind, even if they don't use it. If accessibility is good, then basically everything else will also work just as expected, such as automation like you mentioned

[@nou712]

Wayland here, your accessibility is none of our concern. We will only cater to the needs of RedHat and IBM.

[@JohnBurwell]

Red Hat's largest customer is the US Department of Defense (DoD). In order to sell software to DoD, it must be compliant with Section 508 of the American's with Disabilities Act. This section mandates software provide all of these accessibility features. Therefore, Red Hat will not be able to pull X until Wayland can be Section 508 compliant. The good news is that accessibility will likely become a high priority in the near future so that they don't have to maintain X longer for DoD.

[@jamesb2877]

I have two types of disabilities, a vision and hand control. Right now, the only thing that can run, my apps to run, is X11, if they kill that off, I cannot use Linux at all, unless they rewrite Wayland completely.

[@Wurstbrot03]

13:05 I agree but you can't really blame people for thinking that. A lot of Fedora fans/advocates, exactly present the Distro as "Similiar to Ubuntu without the Canonical stench".

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

Saying Fedora is similar to Ubuntu is blasphemous!

[@_sneer_]

"Similiar to Ubuntu with IBM stench, instead of Canonical". There, FTFY

[@lucas7061]

Yeah, this is a big issue since 2021, when it seemingly became very popular. You can probably count the people that actually do know Fedora (as in, its four core foundations as the Fedora Project calls them) with one hand.

[@Daktyl198]

It's always hilarious seeing people shit-talk Canonical, then turn around and worship Red Hat when RH (who was bought out by IBM) is also an enterprise and profit focused company who doesn't care at all about it's FOSS users. Fedora is purely a testing bed for RHEL, utilizing all of it's users as beta testers for possible software updates and/or inclusions going into RHEL. There's a reason only Red Hat software gets included in Fedora before it's "ready".

[@rigierish3807]

​@@Daktyl198 Worship is a big word, but I've used Fedora for some time and even if Red Hat aren't perfect, at least the don't heavily push their shitty proprietary software like snap on Ubuntu (by even replacing apt command by snap without the user's consent) or do pretty shady stuff on their distros. Besides, they are not just the testing bed for RHEL but for Linux as a whole, by being a leading distro, as they call themselves. So Red Hat and their Fedora distro aren't really comparable with Canonical and their Ubuntu distro.

[@StefaNoneD]

Very important topic and it's sad that Wayland after 15 years (!) is still not ready for such basic features like accessibility and Fedora developers are ignoring this!

[@reality_hurtz]

Brodie at the end of the video: *loading* ... *BSOD*

[@casraf]

Sorry Brodie, I disagree - accessibility is important for things like this which is so widely used. It's not some 1 developer's cool blog. It's the workstation of millions of people, many of which are disabled in some way. If we are trying to slowly fade X11 out, and phase Wayland in, it needs to be prepared for such things. It's not a trivial manner at all.

[@BrodieRobertson]

There's nothing to disagree with, I think it's incredibly important as well but at the end of the day it's a matter of getting people to work on it

[@casraf]

@@BrodieRobertson That's true, but when the organization declares it will proceed regardless and not focus on it at all or even investigate options, it sends a clear message that it's not a priority at all - I'm afraid other distros may follow because the adoption would be great for the 95% who are able to use it well. If we're really trying to be forward thinking...

[@BrodieRobertson]

@@casraf I think that's fair and a number of the KDE devs I've spoken to think Fedora is moving to quick for example and as was mentioned some Gnome devs feel the same way

[@casraf]

@@BrodieRobertson That's good to know, In that case, I'm a bit more at ease and I hope others pick up the slack when the time comes. I just hope they don't get caught up in it being possibly popular in the future and then losing this crucial part due to hastiness

[@AlexandruVoda]

Also, disability is something that can happen to anyone and if you also count temporary disability it is arguably fairly common.

[@ApeironTsuka]

I think my one, big, main problem with Wayland isn't something they'll ever be able to fix: the organizational structure. It's akin to W3C, which is fine.. except good proposals die on the vine because Google doesn't want to implement something ( *cough*jpegxl vs avif*cough*) and Google effectively controls the web. Wayland isn't much different, with a small handful of people who can "yay/nay " something to the point that if Gnome devs don't want to implement a proposal, no matter how useful or universally desired it is, it ends up dying on the vine because of that.

[@octaviapinfold]

What I'll never understand is how come massive projects like Wayland that came relatively recently didn't start out with accessibility in mind. It's one thing that software that's around since forever and accessibility is just patched around it has a hard time and it's imperfect at best, but if you design something in a time when you know fully well what people need, no matter what percentage, it would just make sense to bake in core support to make future development as easy as possible instead of putting it in the basket of all the problems Wayland was supposed to solve but didn't. Accessibility in computing is really important, especially in an aging population, more and more people will need some form of it not just the disabled although they're still numbering in the millions, it boggles my mind that something that could've been a massive selling factor wasn't even considered and by now it won't ever be.

[@leopard3131]

It is a catch 22. X11 did not have these features out of the box either. You can't use x11 indefinitely but Wayland is never going to address these issues if everyone just keeps using x11. I advise Fedora if you want to be on the bleeding edge of features likely to be widely accepted in the greater Linux community but you have to be willing to put in the effort, participate in test days, and stay with an older release for a cycle if something breaks or is annoying.

[@notNajimi]

This. These features never get implemented if there’s never any pressure on devs to get shit working. If everyone that needs a currently x11 exclusive feature gives up on Wayland for good, what motivation do Wayland devs have to get that stuff working at all? I’m not saying people should suck it up with software that’s bad for the task at hand, but progress has to come from at least some of us taking the plunge

[@leopard3131]

@notNajimi That and at least with this particular issue, RHEL has hired a developer to specifically work on these issues. So they will probably show up in gnome and/or fedora first. So if you are interested, I highly advise you to watch for and promote the applicable (Fedora) test days.

[@DrVektor]

I am using arch linux wayland with plasma 6 desktop environment. When I run Krita it flickers. It flashes and blinks. I click on menu options and it flashes again, or I zoom in with the canvas in the menu and it flashes again. It also does it in the image display. When zooming in the Koko program, there is blinking.

[@playtimeplay4518]

I just started using a tiling window manager on Wayland, sway, and I couldn't find any way to automatically detect when a window is meant to be floating. I saw there's apparently stuff on x11 for the purpose of windows you could use, but it doesn't seem to be on Wayland. I hope they add something to help with that.

[@kiri101]

Thanks for the clarification on Fedora

[@marioschroers7318]

I took a look at things and decided to stay with X11 for the time being. Also comes with the advantage that I won't have to drop my window manager and my terminal. Hyprland has some nice eye-candy effects, which I will try to replicate with a patched Picom on a test installation. At the same time, Hyprland handles floating window horribly. For example,, dwm handles Thunderbird notifications much better.

[@knightrider585]

I am sure there is some good reason that I just can't think of, but why don't apps that need "global shortcuts" implement a command-line interface that provides the bindable hot-key actions so the "global shortcuts" can be set up in the compositor key bindings? Then whatever security issues are pushed to the application instead of having to be implemented in the compositor.

[@JessicaFEREM]

As far I as know, MacOS is the only OS with competent accessibility out of the box

[@cameronbosch1213]

Yeah, because the entire OS is barren in terms of window management out of the box. And Menu Bar item help.

[@warpedgeoid]

And Apple probably had as many developer working on accessibility as GNOME has period.

[@BrodieRobertson]

Depends on what you're specifically looking for

[@JG-nm9zk]

I use an onscreen keyboard on my laptop right now because the keyboard is broken. The keyboard rarely comes up when needed.

[@JoshBarker]

For my computer is isn't ready. It does not play nice under either Distro I've tried it with. Wayland does not work correctly with my dual monitors, randomly freezes up for a few seconds here and there and also does not work with my games on Steam. It just refuses to grab the mouse correctly for movement in FPS games unless i disable the second monitor. As soon as I switch back to an X11 session everything works perfectly fine again.

[@MegaManNeo]

Oh gosh, I'm happy I am not the only one who has mouse capture issues with fullscreen games. My triple screen setup actually works fine but yes, being unable to enjoy my main hobby could be just as well seen as "just go back to Windows" when not fixed.

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

What kind of GPU are you using?

[@JoshBarker]

@@SecretAgentBartFargo I have a Radeon 7900XT in my system.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@@JoshBarkerThat's actually very strange. If you were using a pre Turing Nvidia GPU, I could definitely see a problem. But on a brand new AMD GPU, I'm not sure what could be the problem. What distro are you on?

[@JoshBarker]

@@cameronbosch1213 I was using Garuda and have just recently changed over to Endeavor. Used KDE on both distros since that is what I prefer. I had the exact same issues on both while using the Wayland session. All I can think of at this point is that there is some kind of issue with using KDE and Wayland together. But I'm no developer with the skills to figure that out myself and could find no answers when searching for anyone else experiencing what I did.

[@AndersHass]

People being lured into Fedora while no big changes then suddenly they do a change that breaks stuff for people.

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

While accessibility issues are important, the vast majority of users don't use those features so most people don't complain.

[@alexatkin]

The thing about that though, is generally when that happens there are workarounds. This is a rare case where it seems there wont be.

[@act.13.41]

@@alexatkin Of course there is a work around. Use a distro that will continue to support X11. People are acting like this is a huge issue and it is really not.

[@AndersHass]

@@act.13.41 people who need accessibility features might be less likely to easily install new distro or something like that. Though hopefully they have someone who can help them (at least with accessibility parts before it is all setup).

[@act.13.41]

@@AndersHass Understood, but the choices are limited. However, there are still choices.

[@thelakeman2538]

I actually think gnome might make big strides in accessibility features on wayland by the end of the year or the first release next year, since that's one of the things they've been saying they'll do with the 1 million usd grant they got from the German sovereign tech fund.

[@RandomGeometryDashStuff]

keyloggers are useful for program that displays what you pressed on keyboard

[@BrodieRobertson]

Even keyloggers aren't inherently evil, but you probably don't want any app to be keylogger if it wants to be

[@Linuxdirk]

​@@BrodieRobertsonWorked well for the last 2 decades or so. 😂

[@rizkyadiyanto7922]

​@@Linuxdirksurvivorship bias.

[@Linuxdirk]

@@rizkyadiyanto7922 Name any significant X11 keyloggers that are used in the wild for malicious activities.

[@Its-Just-Zip]

Ydotool is pretty nice as a replacement for xdotool and you can set it up to run as a user service instead of a system service but I had to build it from source to do that because Fedora didn't ship user unit files for it. And I absolutely would not like to run that piece of software as root because it becomes a pretty big vulnerability when you do that

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

I use ydotool in Wayland as well, and it works fine.

[@aqua-bery]

I also use ydotool, it works perfectly fine on my plasma 6, endeavour os system

[@Psychx_]

You may be able to use the Fedora version with the user service files provided from upstream (just put them into your ~/.config/systemd/user folder and enable as usual). This should allow you to avoid having to manually recompile while still reaping the benefits.

[@johnnychang4233]

Are the KDE spin of Fedora very distinct from the official Gnome desktop one?

[@cameronbosch1213]

Yes.

[@johnnychang4233]

@@cameronbosch1213In other words, there are no standard packages applicable for Workstation or Server use in the KDE edition out of the box?

[@hariharan_vm]

I think Wayland should soon address the accessibility tools, especially on screen keyboard (OSK) and screen reader, if distros want to deprecate xorg soon. Until all the major issues like accessibility are resolved xorg should not be removed from distros. I am a mobility impaired user and heavily dependent on OSK. Currently I use a tool called Onboard. Floating window OSK with modifier keys and full keyboard layout like onboard are still rare and all of OSK are still only xorg compatible. I switched away from Fedora KDE as they decided to drop xorg. If DEs like KDE plasma and GNOME decide to drop xorg before accessibility tools are matured then I will be forced to use other DEs that will then support xorg longer. I am also in the dilemma of choosing distro as I don't know which distros will drop xorg soon like Fedora. I think debian will be the last to drop xorg. I like more up to date and stable distros like OpenSUSE TW but hesitant as they may drop xorg soon too. I also considered Arch and NixOS as options. But Arch needs high maintenance and NixOS seems to have a steep learning curve and not so good documentation. So I am currently confused between Debian and OpenSUSE TW.

[@hoefkensj]

i would like to correct a statement made in the video. the part about being able to do keyboard and mouse logging in python ( with two lines) , i recently made a HID logger/replayer in python using a combination of pynput and getch/stdin i figured i would have to make 2 other implementations to have it also work on wayland and on tty, but to my surprise pynput works on wayland just fine. aside from that somewhere in the video i saw a reddit comment suggesting to read input directly from evdev, wich is certainly possible at first glance but i have not found a way to select all the devices that generate keyboard input from that, without also selecting yourself and creating loops (kb A-press , detected and replayed would be detected replayed again and again....) or more specific to the shortcuts issue(especiallly if it involves sequences aswell as combinations, it means you cant listen for keystokes while sending and vice versa , while this is technically possible it becomes unmanageble if you start running your listeners and senders async to avoid blocking (imho)

[@uuu12343]

Wayland honestly should slowdown before they crash The faster they go, the harder the crash if they hit a blockade

[@pacifico4999]

Automation also affects password managers

[@foobar8894]

Thing were *not* 'way to open' on X11. When did 'too open' become something to avoid? Wayland is turning the desktop into a web browser that has to assume all code is a thread. It's my PC, I should be allowed to run a keylogger if I want to. I also think that it probably focusing on the wrong threats, show me a common (not just theoretical) exploit that is now impossible. Those wallet stealing apps in the Snap Store worked fine on Wayland, just saying.

[@I0NE007]

Replacements should have at least the same level of accessibility options to make sure everyone is still able to actually use the computer. Personally, it doesn't affect me, but it absolutely matters more than nearly anything for those that need it. For me, my hold up from jumping to Wayland is game performance (Ubuntu 22.04, Nvidia, and only one game tested) which plummeted from 90fps down to 15fps. Also the built-in nightlight feature simply does not function (maybe be from me using Nvidia and/or Ubuntu 22.04).

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

It's probably Nvidia, but it sucks just as bad since there's so many people with Nvidia cards, but there's also a lot of us out there that don't run Nvidia and have way less issues.

[@I0NE007]

@@SecretAgentBartFargo I was on windows and I'm trying to move to Linux. I have another computer that has an AMD card, but I haven't checked to see if that defaults to Wayland or if it still prioritizes X11. Considering moving to the 7900 xtx, or whatever ends up taking it's slot for next Gen. But the more pressing matter is the accessibility compatibility of Wayland. Yes, it's just 0.1% of people but imagine the error was "monitor does not display anything," it would be seen as a much greater importance. And yet, it's basically the same situation: a person is not able to interact with the system.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@I0NE007 AMD literally has FOSS drivers that just work for the most part. And there's nothing that can be done for the two generations of GPUs that have reclocking disabled outside of thr propietary drivers but don't have GSP; the 9 and 10 series GPUs. Unfortunately, there's nothing anybody but Nvidia can do in that case. To be fair, Maxwell is pretty old and Pascal was a big jump forward. But yeah, Pascal may be a serious problem ESPECIALLY on laptops.

[@ferdynandkiepski5026]

Accessibility options are important, and a standardized support for it in Wayland is something that should happen. Around 15% of the world population have some kind of disability. Even if only a few percent of them need the support of a screen reader or similar software, then the total still comes to around 1 percent of users. This is a lot of people as linux has a large user base and with the move to wayland in the future it could have the potential to affect tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. A standard of support for these kind of options across wayland would make a huge difference for them, possibly determining if they will use Linux or not.

[@Urakross]

I understand that Wayland wont for the time being be something that everyone will or can use. There are people who have software and what not that needs X11 (though in that case, the gap has been closed, just some people are stuck in the past) but for accessibility, there's a reason why when KDE on Fedora announced that they're dropping X11, they didn't just drop it and that's that. They allow you to still install it after the fact (and if you were using a version of Fedora KDE that didn't drop X11 yet, the session will still be there unless you're on an Atomic version) However to say that Wayland needs to be stopped to fix accessibility is going a little too far and saying that the normal route for testing software is abuse is always going too far. Fedora obviously adopts early software while it's still broken, yeah it's been tested to make sure it wont do things like corrupt the entire OS (like with certain things Arch does) but this is called release testing. yeah it's all fine and dandy to have QA scenarios and unit tests to test if it's all working and whatnot, but in the real world data is going to be dramatically different to what testing will produce. Asking for X11 back and killing Wayland "until it's better" wont do anything because Wayland has been testing in a development environment and has been for years before adoption. Now that real distros are using it it's exposing bugs that were missed, missing features, etc. etc. so yes Wayland doesn't have accessibility in mind but now we are starting to see that issue come to the front, and it's going to be dealt with. Running back to X11 in a way is like running back to Windows, yes it works but it's legacy software that hasn't been updated for a very long time with any meaningful features and fixes for issues that can be very detrimental in a lot of ways.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

At this point Wayland is more complicated than X11 and there is no reason at all to use it.

[@sharp14x]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539No it isn't, it's modular, not monolithic, is more performant, and is better equipped to handle modern use cases.

[@vendetta.02]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539x11 is bloated lmao

[@vendetta.02]

​@@thewhitefalcon8539the only thing complex is xorg

[@Urakross]

@@thewhitefalcon8539 if wayland is more complicated than X11, then I guess modularity means nothing, and the explicit goal of it being less complicated also means nothing? if so, do you have a solution for replacing a windowing standard from the Unix days?

[@cheako91155]

It's a big issue for each project to have to address the same issues... Having a common server(like xorg) that handles most of the client's needs has benefits.

[@redgeoblaze3752]

I think the biggest issue with wayland overall is the expectation for everything to just migrate over to it before it's reached feature parity. I'm still using BSPWM because it just works for me. I don't think it'll ever get a proper port over. I know I don't want to stop, or find a replacement. As far as I've seen, there's no one-to-one replacement out there. They said they don't want to make a drop-in replacement for X11, but maybe that would have been the right solution. rewrite the code to be more organized and better structured, and keep the things we already know.

[@XoaGray]

Wayland really is starting to feel like it’s just being forced out at this point. I get that for some people it works well, but for others like us here it’s really a mixed bag and on two of our machines it is cripplingly broken. Adding that to these issues with accessibility and that’s really not great.

[@cavvieira]

Gnome got that grant money to work on accessibility among other things. Looks like a good idea of the money.

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

I have a tablet computer and zooming the screen by pinching works really well in both GNOME and KDE environments. I'm not sure of other Wayland environments, but it works fine in those two. Honestly, I haven't had a single computer that uses Wayland that didn't work properly out of the box. So, maybe I'm lucky? I don't see any reason to ever go back to X11 when Wayland is doing everything properly for me.

[@Problematist]

My only issue with Wayland is that I'm using Geforce Now and that loses keyboard focus on Xwayland which is needed for AMD hardware acceleration on Chromium based browsers. Disabling Xwayland leads to mouse stuttering. It's like a sysiphean task, but instead of a boulder it's input devices.

[@Thanatos2996]

This is why I dislike Wayland, despite using it. Wayland puts the onus for everything on the compositor, making generic and modular solutions impossible and requiring every single project to independently come up with their own implementation for every feature.

[@stasprze1685]

I appreciate this video as a screen reader user, This issue is talked about very little and needs to be considered more. Most of the time I use macOS or Windows as my main OS, but I am definitely pretty active in the Linux space and whenever I use desktop Linux I have to fall back on xorg, which I wish I didn’t have to do. honestly give me full Wayland accessibility as well as accessible music production software and I might just switch to Arch / Nixos completely

[@Redmage913]

I wish I could code.

[@patpopov]

Wayland is newfangled and exciting but X11 is still perfectly adequate.

[@ps5hasnogames55]

it's not really "new" when it's been around for 16 years...

[@patpopov]

So it's a teenager. X is 40. @@ps5hasnogames55

[@ChristianConrad]

No, @@ps5hasnogames55 , you're right, it's more fangled.

[@Mariuspersem]

regarding on screen keyboards, I've been setting up maliit on my legion go, seems to work fine, tho it is abit annoying sometimes

[@SecretAgentBartFargo]

It works well enough for software written for Wayland, but when you use software that requires Xwayland it no longer works.

[@Mariuspersem]

@@SecretAgentBartFargo Yeah I noticed

[@Linuxdirk]

My main major problem with Wayland is screen recording. Multiple individual windows and video and multiple audio sources in different channels at the same time? Impossible with Wayland, on Xorg out-of-the-box.

[@GSBarlev]

If by "out of the box" you mean, after careful coordination of alsa/pulse/pipewire with OBS." And the current experience is _worlds_ better than it was back in my creator heyday of 2010-15. I haven't tried multi-window recording on Wayland yet, but saying that Xorg "just works" belies the amount of software development needed for shims, workarounds and general hacks that went into getting the screen capture experience as smooth as it is in 2024.

[@Harb000]

Just wish OBS wayland had the same features as OBS x11.

[@Linuxdirk]

You mean like, actually being able to record the screen?

[@Harb000]

@@LinuxdirkNo custom browser docks.

[@Linuxdirk]

@@Harb000 Yes, another thing that does not work.

[@keit99]

​@@Linuxdirkscreenrecording does work. Just not browser docks

[@BrodieRobertson]

Browser docks is entirely an upstream CEF problem, OBS can't do anything to fix that on there side

[@DarkVoiderFrom03]

i use mouse keys with numpad on a laptop with a broken touchpad and Wayland basically makes that laptop unusable without mouse keys with numpad

[@AklemTech]

for the life of me I can't get flameshot working no matter what, I've tried every single solution available

[@unpotatoedsalmon]

Fine Brodie ill try wayland

[@dduncane]

gonna be brutally honest here, I don't think it's high on any company's priority list either, volunteers aside, unless there's a law enforced by a fine that cost a lot more than just developing the feature, I'm pretty sure most company put all the accessibility features really down in term of priority.

[@act.13.41]

Fedora is a leader and thus is not for everyone. Period. There is no shortage of distros out there and anyone can find what they need. Use what suits your needs. It is that simple, really.

[@jorge28624]

I thought that my video was buffering lol

[@_boux]

I was pleasantly surprised how well wayland worked on KDE6 on a 10 year old PC with a GTX 980. KDE on X11 would randomly crash on that PC, but no such issue with wayland, the animations are even way smoother in general. Sometimes there are weird visual glitches tho, like when scrolling in my browser the text would flicker out for a few frames, and the weird issue where I can't output 4k 60fps to my TV, but I can on X11. Still not switching back to X11 because my PC was just hard freezing when playing a game for 2 minutes

[@MrSnivvel]

Honestly, this is time where the various advocacy and support groups for people with the various disabilities should be sponsoring the work to bring better accessibility to their users. First, they theoretically should have money to sponsor things and would be able to better direct where the work should be done. (They'd have a better time of getting things improved in the Open Source world over MS or Apple.) Second, being who the serve they'd also be in a better spot to define and clarify what accessibility is and if/how is an implementation usable; think of it as User Acceptance Tests. Third, it would be a win for those organizations from both a practical and promotional standpoint because it shows them being involved with solving this problem (e.g. they can fund raise more on showing what they doing). Give a tax deductible organization people can contribute to and it's a win for everyone.

[@deathdogg0]

Yeah but see, accessibility is a basic human right. It's not about tax write offs and capitalism, it's about getting people what they need, full stop. Humanity sucks if we have to go through all this just to get Orca working, for instance. I'm a blind programmer, and I have the ability to use a computer just as well, if not better, than most. I shouldn't have to fight for a basic right, but here we are. And accessibility groups are not going to bother with this. Most people with accessibility needs default to Apple and Windows, and all work, from commercial screen readers on windows to the built-in Voiceover on Apple, is useless for Linux. NVDA, an open source screen reader, is also only available for windows. Those are the barriers that we must overcome

[@MrSnivvel]

@@deathdogg0 First off, "human rights" is a fallacious concept that is defined ad hoc by anyone making the claim for it, so don't try justifying anything with it. Second, everything has a cost whether that be in the form of time, money, energy, or empathetic concern (including some combination of those); at which point someone will have to "pay" for it to be done. If that wasn't true then this wouldn't be an issue and Wayland would already be completed, bug-free, and the default. Third, if your current advocacy groups are not going to support this then they suck and should be replaced with better ones. You should start one since you already know the problems you personally face in this situation. Forth, since you're a programmer than help in the porting of the open source screen reader to Wayland, or contribute in some other way that pushes the project in that direction. Even just reporting back bugs when running in WINE might help.

[@warpedgeoid]

@@deathdogg0That’s all fine and dandy, but money is still a requirement to build software features. Most developers aren’t working for free and those who do work on parts of the codebase that interests them and not what needs the most attention. Somebody (an NGO, the EU) is going to have to sponsor this work to ensure that it gets done.

[@deathdogg0]

@@warpedgeoid Well but that's the thing. Having that mindset is exactly why money is needed. People just need to get done what needs to get done for the sake of humanity, to get people what they need. This isn't about you, or some dev, this is about everyone. If Linux wants to be useful in any sense of the word after Wayland for people with accessibility needs, this has to happen. It has to. If it doesn't, Linux will most likely never gain as much traction as people would like, simply because little things like accessibility, and by extention automation tasks would be hard to impossible. As I stated previously, if a feature works with accessibility, not only was it made properly, but it can be then controlled programatically, and a lot of enterprise customers and power users would find that helpful. Also, if you stop to think about it, if something is accessible by default, it means it was written correctly. And honestly you say devs aren't willing to do it for free; I'm willing to do it for free except I can't because for some reason C is still a thing and I just refuse to learn C passed the basics. No reason to nowadays, and eventually people will realize this and move on. But until then many modern devs who would be willing to do this for the sake of being a good human just can't really contribute to accessibility until things are rewritten. Now about this last point, if I'm wrong and accessibility is considered user space, then ok I guess it's possible, but I'm assuming here that the accessibility features are not in user space. My point is it's been years and years since accessibility has been wonky even on X11, and if even 3 people had actually fixed or kept up with a lot of the issues over 15 years, maybe things wouldn't be so odd on X11, and Wayland would have more experienced people working on it that care about accessibility. That last point is tenuous at best but I think you know what I mean here. A lot of work is essentially put into little tiny features only 5 people will use in a lot of distros. A lot of talk about just that is what a lot of this channel revolves around really. If devs gave the same importance to developing accessibility as they do arguing about Wayland protocols, maybe things would get done. Devs don't get paid for debating people online, yet you just have to go to any linux forum to see they'll do it anyway. So just shift that energy and be a useful part of the dev community and contribute to something bigger than yourself. Like I said if something is accessible, most likely it was written correctly and it will just work. Writing apps that highlight accessibility, at least in my experience, always leads to more intense testing, higher QC and functional software right out the gate. Accessibility isn't just for a few disabled people like me; it's for everyone. So yes, this should be a focus. This shouldn't even be a discussion; many UI frameworks for instance have accessibility support by default; they just work. It's really not that much to ask for, it really isn't

[@MrSnivvel]

@@deathdogg0 Why do you have such an entitled attitude about this? You expect people to do things for free (time, money, energy) because as you say it's "for the sake of humanity" but such things may not on their radar or high on the priority list. Just because you exist doesn't mean you are owed anything. If you are any representation of the people with disabilities that are helped with accessibility features that rely on volunteer developers to be created; then you'd only have to look in the mirror and see yourself as the one to blame because I wouldn't bother caring about your demographic as a developer.

[@abhinavlakhani5637]

9:51 warpd with hyprland works for me

[@BrodieRobertson]

Looks like it specifically has wlroots support

[@doce3609]

I use xorg because it works and there is nothing wrong with it. Wayland broke too many applications and had weird behaviour. With xorg I can just do what I wanna do and forget about it.

[@GSBarlev]

Not to say that Wayland is perfect, but "There is nothing wrong with" Xorg is something you really only say when you've been using it for so long that you're just acclimated to its limitations.

[@haxwithaxe]

The keyboard mouse is called warpd

[@rogueyun9613]

Competition breeds innovation. If not Fedora some distribution would still need to take the leap of faith.

[@darthcabs]

I just discovered by experience that all major distributions that have a nvidia iso available, ship with X11 instead of Wayland, no matter if the DE is KDE or Gnome. So Wayland on nvidia land is not really a thing yet

[@5mrd]

No session restore for native Wayland windows; Session-restored XWayland windows go on the wrong screens and virtual desktops

[@BrodieRobertson]

That is a work in progress

[@maximmk6446]

​@@BrodieRobertson Is that the ext-session-management thing?

[@BrodieRobertson]

@@maximmk6446 That's part of it

[@jfolz]

Maybe I'm ignorant about how exactly this works, but Fedora would _not_ be the distro I'd recommend if you rely on accessibility features always working exactly the way you expect them to. Fedora updates software all the time and things can break. What if the GUI just breaks and you're dumped to the console. Wouldn't that make you completely helpless?

[@Maric18]

once it is as easy to write a python script to watch my healthbar and press a potion when it gets low on wayland as it is on xorg, i'll switch right now its just: poll pixel 4 times a second, if it is black (aka below a certain value so having a menu over it doesn't trigger it), send a certain key in wayland? nope forget it

[@notuxnobux]

Speaking of wayland meme, Joshua Ashton wanted to default sdl3 to x11 since wayland behaves badly and has worse performance than xwayland. They decides to keep wayland as default even if it's broken to encourage fixing it (even though it hasn't been fixed in 3 years). Wayland is a mess.

[@robotron1236]

It's not. I had it on Arch and Manjaro and I had TONS of problems with my monitors and the screen flickering. I actually like Wayland, but X11 is more reliable.

[@orbatos]

Almost like when people say that Gnome isn't listening to important feedback they're telling the truth. They really need to fix important things, instead of spending time on removing features from Nautilus. Also, i shouldn't need to say that unstable distros aren't going to have good accessibility support. Fedora has never been stable, pay attention to what your users need.

[@fuseteam]

Wayland portal pipewire- waypipe portal! .........wait

[@BrotherO4]

if you wait to switch when its ready... it wont ever be ready cause "its not the main thing". force the switch which will force the fix in the end.

[@methanbreather]

wayland is traveling full speed to destination train wreck. It is a very incomplete protocol needing heaps of other protocols/portals added to even marginally coming up to X11 features. And with everything added, it becomes more and more of a fragile mess. Soon it will be a total garbage fire. Also - not reporting on SDL3 going back from wayland default, because it (wayland) is a slow, broken mess?

[@Urakross]

the point of Wayland was to come up with better solutions to X11 features, so they can be used in a more modular, secure, performant way. Yes there are issues, but that's going to be the case with any big project like a protocol suite for compositors. Do you think X11 was perfect when it was still mostly new (the X11 window manger was made in 1987) of course Wayland isn't feature complete, it's only been 15 or so years, compare that to X11 which has been around for 37 (well it's technically a little older because what X11 came from was originally made back in Unix) also on SDL3 going back from Wayland by default. if it was slow and broken 0 people would use it at all. the reason why it was reverted is because there was some issues with SDL3 itself, it makes no sense to add support for a new windowing system if there's some issues after a rewrite with the software itself.

[@ChristianConrad]

@@Urakross : _"the point of Wayland was to come up with better solutions to X11 features"_ Yeah, and the _problem_ with Wayland is that they _haven't_ "come up with better solutions to X11 features" -- for multi-window apps and accessibility, they _haven't_ "come up with" *anything at all!* So that makes Wayland pretty point-less, doesn't it?

[@knghtbrd]

Wayland accessibility is critical and IMO it's not there yet. And it probably won't get there until X11 is dead. Could get there quickly but Gnome is Gnome so … labwc, hyprland, sway, wayfire, KDE, Cinnamon, Cosmic, and the rest the ball's in your court!

[@ps5hasnogames55]

a few GNOME contributors are basically the only ones working on accessibility right now lol

[@knghtbrd]

@@ps5hasnogames55 Considering Gnome core devs LAUGHED AT MY BLINDNESS and told me I was using my computer wrong, that inspires absolute pessimism in the future of accessibility on Linux. Post Code of Conduct, which of course they refused to enforce against themselves naturally.

[@ps5hasnogames55]

@@knghtbrdthey never did that stop being dramatic lol

[@andytroo]

accessibility is hard - it affects a small percentage of users, so is low ROI. Those users are all moderately different in terms of specific needs. It requires extra expertise to meet those needs well. And like many minority communities, a few entitled people can pressure the few people who attempt to work in that area for free in non-constructive ways that hurt the community as a whole. If one of the hundred developers working on core features is lost, progress on core features slows a touch. If you lose one of the two people who are focused on accessibility, that feature set will begin to fall behind.

[@stuartnorman8713]

Just consider that someday all of these problems will be moot.

[@TheIceMan9304]

What I would love to see some of these large grants go to specifically adding in accessibility options for the future of Wayland. And this money could be provided specifically to the DE devs like KDE or....na screw gnome.

[@DCM777.]

No problems on Arch for me.

[@taylor-worthington]

Damn this hurts. Linux needs an efficient and featureful GUI that can pivot to different security models. The whole idea of Wayland is that this can be done through different sub-implementation through the managers. wlroots can do X. The others can do Y or Z.

[@SirSomnolent]

Crunch time never really seems to happen until you don't have any choice. We launch and we'll build the landing gears on the way.

[@tablettablete186]

I love seeing this discussion, especially because I am on Windows... and the security is the same as X11😂 At least of you don't use multiple desktops (the NT kernel object)

[@Xankill3r]

The argument that it's not critical to support accessibility features because very few people use it is misleading. For one, the percentages are wrong. We already know for a fact that disabled people make up a significant chunk of the total population. Plus we all agree that we *need* to make Linux more widely used in order to break proprietary software monopoly therefore bringing in more of these people into the Linux fold. Moreover the requirement here isn't for Wayland or event these distros to build the accessibility tools themselves. They only need to make that development possible. The disabled/persons with disabilities community is massive and has been developing its own tools for the past several decades. The only problem here is one of acknowledgement and a lack of willingness to listen. Analogy - imagine if Wayland or some other critical system was written in a way that only supported the Latin script for text output and they argued that the vast majority of the current userbase needs only that. So they refused to even discuss these needs.

[@kolz4ever1980]

Luckily I've always had a very smooth time using Wayland. Can't even think of any issue showing up once I began idiot full time. I always worry about when I get a new PC in time though if everything will work just as good. 😆

[@_sneer_]

I have a feeling that Wayland creates more problems than it solves at the moment and when it will be ready it will be just a bunch loosely tied software workarounds with code and maintanability of the current x11, with less features.

[@Violettica5000]

I had to switch off of Hyprland to AwesomeWM due to problems with my wrists forcing me to use Talon Voice. Talon Voice, at time of writing, does not work with Wayland. Period. As long as there is a risk of my wrists acting up again, Wayland is worse than useless for me.

[@Adiee5Priv]

what is desktop automation?

[@jasamkrava]

for example you click a button on your keyboard and multiple apps open and get configured the way you want

[@Adiee5Priv]

@@jasamkrava What the hell? Crazy stuff

[@anasouardini]

I wish they go a little bit more practical instead of jumping here and there: Just make things work before you start a new-but-similar thing.

[@demanuDJ]

As OpenSuse ThumbleWeed daily user, I'm stick to Wayland 😅 in my multi-screen environment with different refresh rates it works just better

[@blindguyaudiophile]

As a blind person, the only thing that ties me to windows is accessibility on Linux I hope it gets better someday

[@ForeverZer0]

Betteridge's law of headlines.

[@BrodieRobertson]

Saying a fallacy exists doesn't actually mean anything

[@ChristianConrad]

@@BrodieRobertson : But Betteridge's law isn't a fallacy.

[@ukyoize]

Reason why wayland is not ready is because gnome people block attempts at improving it