Should We Re-bolt the World's Most Dangerous Route?

[@Det.DustySocks]

I’ve actually thought a lot about this since I read that particular article where they interviewed Peter Croft, John Long, etc. I’ll try to keep my thoughts brief. Ultimately, I agree that throwing a few more bolts in would be a good idea. Shortening the runouts to, say, ten feet wouldn’t destroy the aesthetics or the exposure and anyone who’s been even THAT far above a bolt on a slab knows that it still gets your heart pumping. Plus, given the backstory and the fact that one of the first ascensionists has gone on record supporting it, silences THAT particular argument. However, the idea that it should be done to curb the accident rate of anyone who got in over their head seems like pandering. The amount of material (this video included) that exists highlighting the seriousness of snake dike is fairly massive. So, for someone to forgo the research and decide to venture up unprepared speaks more about their aloofness than the flaws of the route. If someone got extremely injured falling while free soloing and then claimed they didn’t know it was dangerous, they’d be criticized for it. Bolts should be added but at the end of the day, YOU are your first point of protection.

[@craigbritton1089]

You have to be a horrible climber to fall on most of those pitches. I have done them in lug soles; in tennis shoes; in the rain. She was not an experienced outdoor climber; I saw pictures of her using her hands on the 2nd class approach; the first 5.7 pitch is usually not even done with a rope by most climbers. The other 5.7 is two moves right by a bolt. And she climbed straight up from that bolt rather traverse on obvious holds to an obvious dike with very good holds. Stay in the gym if you don't want risk. Or back off if you are scared.

[@craigbritton1089]

@@audreyp7653 look at a topo do you know it is a two move five seven ( barely) and then progressively easier to the bolt belay. Which is visible from the 5.7. I have never heard of anyone falling on the route before. I have heard of people going up the right dike instead of traversing left to the very visible bolts. If you miss already visible bolts; I am not sure you wouldn't miss an additional bolt. Climbing is dangerous. I saw pictures of the injured climber on the approach. She did not have good slab skills. Her partner should not have let her lead.

[@craigbritton1089]

@@audreyp7653 I would also add that you are taking away from the experience of half a century of climbers that had the confidence in their competence to climb the route. Maybe we should just via ferreta the entire route to the summit so more people can experience being there and saying they climbed it?? That way more people can die from lightening strikes than get hurt falling.

[@psychcowboy1]

@@craigbritton1089 When 5.11 climbers do a 5.7 route, that doesn't mean everyone else moving forward has to do it the same way. A bolt every 10 ft to make it within the safe level for 5.7 climbers.

[@michaeldodd7257]

I led this 30 years ago. I was climbing well in my youth solid 5.9 / 5.10 and come from the British trad community. Snakedyke was in theory well under my grade.... I can say that the run outs made it one of my most memorable climbing adventures ever! keep it as it is and let more generations of climbers enjoy adventure...and gain skills on the way.

[@MrHassancehef]

in my area, some slab are so runnout that people draw arrows (instead of adding bolt). A good alternative is sometimes just ("just", well it's not possible everywhere) to bolt a new classic/easy route with modern spacing, and to leave the historic route for people who want to keep the experience (bolt in the area, but not few meters close to it off course).

[@ArinaThomsen]

Thank you for the warning. I always felt confident on moderate difficulty slab and if I ever were in Yosemite, and being inexperienced with old school grading and run off bolting, I would be tempted to try something that I potentially can free solo. 5.7 slab route would be something that would definitely draw my attention. Overconfidence can kill you for sure.

[@ascentionism]

It's an awesome route, and would make a wicked solo! I don't want to overblow the danger - most of the climbing is truly 5.4 - but I do think that people need to take the route more seriously. You should spend a day at Swan Slab and do a more protectable multipitch (Royal Arches or After 7) to get used to the style. Ditching the rope and taking a romp up Sunnyside Bench to see how your head is when soloing is probably a good litmus test

[@Bork23476]

I hate this old school anti bolting ethic. I live in an area with a strict no bolting ethic. Everything is single pitch glass smooth quartzite. What this means is that almost nobody trad climbs. It's just TR everywhere. And in most cases that's the only way to climb it unless you want to go soloing. I don't see why not just bolt the blank faces, leave the cracks unbolted, and maybe throw some rap bolts on the handful of spires we have.

[@karabaia5417]

Just like in Montserrat, amazing walls with trad classics in black slabs, and they chop up every bolt in new routes where's imposible to place anything but a sling in some stading out boulder

[@michaelpook6651]

Are you referring to Devil's Lake? There's polished quartzite climbing there and a no bolting rule but I mainly boulder so I'm not too familiar. There I'm pretty sure it's for aesthetic reasons since a lot of the features face the trails so the DNR wouldn't want bolts in front of the majority of tourists.

[@Bork23476]

@@michaelpook6651 Yupp Devils Lake is my local crag. And the main reason there's no bolts is because the area is gatekeeped by a bunch of old farts that basically lobby the DNR. 1 of the common reasons they site is bolts are ugly. Which is stupid, 1 you can't see bolts unless you look for them, 2 you can't see the majority of the cliff faces from the hiking trails anyway. In reality it's just old farts jealous of the new climbers warming up on their projects from back in the 80s.

[@Bork23476]

@@rbaz556 Just cause it's a warm up doesn't mean I want to warm up soloing. I'm all for some easy soloing now and then but if I have a hard project I want to warm on bolts. Soloing movement so much different to sport climbing. Also it's not about extra bolts. There are zero bolts at the DL.

[@surflasal]

@@Bork23476 "Those jealous old farts won't let us cool kids put bolt ladders on 5.8 climbs because we're huge pussies."

[@Maduc]

Well-recorded history honors first ascentionists. The argument the other way is the equivalent of saying war re-enactors should use real bullets to honor those soldiers.

[@AlexAnder-ky2ce]

Another great video, Marcus! Thanks for putting out high quality climbing content

[@timmurdock618]

Climbing has changed. People will continue to get in over their heads. I believe bolts should be added. Not to make it a sport route but bolts every 15-20’ would not be unreasonable. Earlier bolts should be original color newer bolts should be yellow or some other color. If someone wants a more original experience they eschew the newer bolts and accept the risk.

[@jordancampbell2577]

Looks like I ended up commenting the same that. Great minds think alike ;)

[@gnomiefirst9201]

I don't want anyone getting hurt. Know your limits and understand what runout climbing entails: a serious potential for death/injury if you fall. There are no gyms in the world that you can practice long runout slippery granite slab climbing. I climbed it and the only memory I have is telling myself to 'keep moving'. Go ahead and add more bolts. Then be prepared to wait in a long line. Cheers.

[@Ravenblues]

Not only in Yosemite, just don't fall bro is common advice in Europe

[@simonrobbins815]

As a UK trad climber I've done my fair share of run-out slabs and I agree with your analysis. There is a place for risk in climbing but I don't see the point of risk for risk sake on a moderate trade-route. I think you've made a good case for adding bolts to this route.

[@themurderofcoke]

I feel like the risk comes from harder routes. A 5.4 shouldn't be a potential death sentence.

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

This is somewhat my logic. Historically, the danger didn't come from conciously bad safety, but simply because anything safer wasn't feasible. To me it seems more, that the goal was to push the climbing itself, and because of the lack of technology, safety had to suffer for this advancement. But danger itself was not why most people did hard routes.

[@geometerfpv2804]

@@cedricl.marquard6273 This is right. People just want to re-live the "glory days", and feel that should be forced on the rest of us. We should be forced to acknowledge that they are the "real OGs". I hate it.

[@ruttonoise69]

some 10 years ago when visiting the valley for hikes a *local climber* even suggested me to solo the dyke, instead of doing the 6+ hours trail to the top of the Half Dome... I knew nothing about that route at the time but I it never crossed my mind to follow his "recommendation"

[@manelcasanova3324]

There are letters that we add to the numbers to grade the risk. R, X. I climbed snake dike long ago and it was a great experience in part because of the exposure.

[@Cragdognamedbear]

I don’t know.. I want to say, if it’s too dangerous for you, just get the permit and climb the cables. But I also agree it’s not worth the risk to new climbers drawn to the climb. But I also don’t want everything to be closely sport bolted because it’s kind of dangerous.

[@ascentionism]

Yeah, I absolutely see where you're coming from with this. Again, with a lot of other routes in other locations, I lean against retro-bolting, but Snake Dike scares me because of the popularity

[@Cragdognamedbear]

@@ascentionismvery true. I’ve also climbed Snake Dike. There are places where you would for sure fall further than 80ft. I can see how someone could get lost or confused because of how many dikes there are around the 3rd and 4th pitches, also the weird anchor bolts in the middle of the climb. I think if anything it should be upgraded to 5.7X instead of 5.7R to deter beginner climbers. I would be down for just rebolting the anchors and add one somewhere after the traverse higher up on the dike.

[@ZerolinGD]

why is it dangerous for stuff to be sport bolted lol. Sounds safe to me.

[@ascentionism]

Support your route developers!!! Every dollar I make off this video (adsense and Squarespace ad read) will be split evenly between The Access Fund and Anna's GoFundMe. Link in the description if you want to help out!!

[@JacobCulverhouse]

It’s Yosemite… I don’t see a problem with the route. Keep it old school so that there’s not a lot of people climbing it.

[@christopherwaller2798]

The UK leans towards trad climbing instead of bolted routes (quarries are the main exception) and therefore some routes ("extreme" grades E1 all the way to E11, IIRC) are risky despite being somewhat below the most difficult sport climbs in the world in terms of difficulty. Trad slabs with awful gear placement do exist, but there's nothing comparable to this in terms of popularity.

[@Olli999Olli999]

Great video and respect to whoever has climbed this route. I personally feel its as simple as, you only ascend this climb if u 100% respect the consequences of it and are more than capable of doing doing so.

[@ryanlloyd3842]

Human life and safety is more of a right than human ego... in a community sport... where we look out for each other...

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

Climbing is always inherently dangerous without imposing artificial hazards like the culture in Yosemite seems to get off on. Bolts fail. Ropes get cut. Carabiner gates do weird things. Carabiners get snapped by weird interplay with bolt hangers. Rocks fall. Storms happen. If a climber gets injured or dies it should be because it was otherwise unavoidable within the context of climbing. If you want to climb a more historic style, feel free to skip the bolts. Solo. Use manila ropes. Wear hobnail boots. The rest of the climbing community should not have to be gatekept by your fetish.

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

That is exactly my thought. If someone wants to show how hard they are, they can always free solo. But the fetish for danger for the sake of "tradition" is like not wearing a seatbelt, cause the first cars didn't have any.

[@arnoldkotlyarevsky383]

@@cedricl.marquard6273 that is a great analogy. I will be using that for sure.

[@censoredstar]

Amen!

[@geometerfpv2804]

Exactly my take. There are plenty of ways to die, do we seriously need to intentionally add more? Skip the bolts if you want.

[@ml242]

Marcus, I believe the argument here is somewhat strange. I am not a hard and fast "don't add bolts" kind of person, and I think if the FA wants to add them it *shouldn't be controversial* to add a couple and make the anchors safe. But to do it because of this fall is somewhat disingenuous. If I remember correctly, the climber had ascended past the anchors and was off-route on one of the pitches. I have been there myself and it sucks - but it almost seems like the goal of the bolting would be to create a bread crumb trail for climbers to follow from anchor to anchor to prevent this specific kind of accident then. I mean, anywhere in the world someone can get off route and have to downclimb and it is always harrowing. I can remember every year having to remove my trad gear and circle back at various cliffs - and it stinks - but it is also part of climbing. The conversation of what is acceptable and in the best interests of the community is important but it's also important that people need to be aware of not just what a lack of pro means but also understanding the route and managing a topo means before going up. Again, I feel terrible that this poor person had this accident, but altering the rock is forever and putting 200 bolts in to make it a gym climb changes the experience whether you clip them or not.

[@vagdemarrs]

This debate sounds weird for a french climber, we somehow have the same kind of concerns about keeping the spirit of the first ascensionist, and there are climbing spots that are well known for the space between bolts, but since the french climbing federation (FFME) is accountable for outdoor safety, jeopardizing life would not be tolerated. It means that a minimum amount of bolts to prevent hard injuries is mandatory, no debate. Whereas adding extra bolts for confort and extra safety is open to debate about ethics and spirit. If you're not happy with bolts just skip them :)

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

This to me seems so sensible. I just do not understand why it is so important to keep "the spirit" like shit if you want the spirit, why not clikb with 150 year old shoes and ropes? It just seems like a pick and choose for the sake of danger

[@thirstyflamingo]

I agree few more bolts won't hurt, just so people stay safe. I know of at least one other person, who is experienced, who has fallen on snake dike, and doing the slab run down the face until their rope caught. If any person don't like the bolts, don't clip the bolt, and you can talk about how badass you are. If you can't help but clip it, that's on you. There's a prior-art to this, people have climbed hard bolted sports climbs using trad gear, not using the bolts, same idea. Leave the bolts so some gumby doesn't come by and blow out their talus bone from their feet on a major whipper.

[@MatthewWright-y9t]

I’m all for old school shit. People are way too caught up in it. I can feel both sides though. Couple bolts are not a big deal

[@jordancampbell2577]

I see both sides. Potential for off route and navigation errors is sucky. Honoring the original climb is romantic and also an experience you wouldn’t want to permanently give up. Here’s a middle ground for folks that see both sides. There’s already bolts on the wall. Paint the original bolts or use a different colored bolt for the “original route” and leave the retro bolts identifiable. If you’re really that motivated to climb it classic, just don’t clip the bolts. Just like how soloists cruise right on by bolts. You want the fear? Go for it. For the folks that don’t want it, clip those Retro bolts. I understand the contract changes that you are writing with the rock with a safety net looking you in the face the whole time, but it really only seems like the best middle ground. People are indeed signing up for the risk, they should do their research. I live in Portland, OR and Mount hood kills a shit ton of people but it’s one of the most summited mountains out there. They go in unprepared or they go in very prepared and both can have positive or negative results. The way you choose to ascend a climb varies so much and if soloists have no problem going past gear/bolts i don’t see why other folks can’t either.

[@thelonelyphish]

Next time you visit Tahquitz and Big Bear do the extra hour drive to the south and check out Mt Woodson, it's our local gem of a crag and is another spot that prepares you for that smooth featureless granite.

[@ascentionism]

Love the recommendation!! I'll be sure to check it out

[@thelonelyphish]

@@ascentionism if you want some quality crack climbing we've got some classics here of all sizes, the only "problem" is they're short

[@Vim_Tim]

The irony is that Mount Woodson has the most "old trad credo" culture in San Diego County with very few bolts and basically everything is highballed or free-soloed. Many of the TR climbs that do exist require dangerous scrambles/solos. See the debate on Uncertainty Principle on Mountain Project for an example. Mount Woodson has the best cracks in San Diego, but it's a relatively stiff & unforgiving crag.

[@thelonelyphish]

@@Vim_Tim yeah it'd be the last sport destination I'd recommend but if you're looking for cracks it's got the best SD has to offer.

[@stephenchurch1784]

What you're saying does make sense but you've also got to weigh the fact that the local climbers don't want it and trying to force it on them for tourists' sake is kind of shitty. Put up a sign making the particular challenges on the route more clear if it's a safety problem instead. Anyone bolting trad routes in El Dorado would find their bolts cut too. Not because we don't think sport climbing is real climbing but because that's not the way we do it here and its it's our home. We've created plenty of sport routes because we recognize that we are a climbing destination so we have to compromise a bit but our fully trad routes are sacred to us and if you want to climb them, you have to respect our climbing culture

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

I don't understand why they are sacred? I do understand the argument that it is bitchy to force it on local climbers who want to climb a certain way. I just don't understand why specifically the danger aspect seems so important

[@stephenchurch1784]

@Cedric L. Marquard It's not the danger that's important. It's the fact that we're climbing the rock as we found it and not adding anything to the route to help out. I don't think that that mindset is better, just that it deserves to be respected in the dwindling number of places that it still exists

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

@@stephenchurch1784 Ok interesting. I can definitely see where you're coming from. Especially the argument, that if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to do it.

[@jerrygreene1493]

Actually Yosemite is a National Park, not a locals own it park. If you care about safe recreation and other people you don't care about added bolts. Once every 10 feet is not overdoing it. I feel sorry for the girl. If you care about 'I climbed it with those bolts, so everyone else needs to do so too'. Basically if you come from a selfish me point of view you are anti adding bolts, if you are from a 'I care about other people' then you are pro safe climbing routes.

[@geometerfpv2804]

It doesn't belong to "local climbers", it belongs to the earth. It's incredibly egotistical to think there is some group that has "rights" to that giant rock.

[@twinmike1]

I would say that with many "old school" bolted routes you should be comfortable climbing 2 grades higher then the listed grade. Especially if its rated R. Same goes for alpine routes. A 5.9 1000m alpine route is far more difficult and dangerous than a 5.9 at the crags Do your homework and plan ahead.

[@EvanWisheropp]

Why does everybody forget that Snake Dike has an R rating?

[@bak122796]

It should absolutely be X rated.

[@sinclairk]

Why not just add extra bolts and then the people who want to climb Snake Dyke the original time-honored way can choose to skip the newly added bolts? Lets you opt into the risk if you want while still reducing the accident-factor of the route

[@ascentionism]

This is a super great point! I actually touched on this in the first draft of the video, but ended up cutting it because I was rambling too much. There is a bit of a counter-argument here, in that the presence of bolts, even if you don't use them, changes the experience. If you ever really get scared, you can just clip a bolt, which some people feel robs you of the full accomplishment of having done something dangerous with no other way out other than keeping your cool. I understand the argument, because I agree that the presence of bolts changes things, even if you don't use them, but I think it's outweighed by the danger snake dike presents

[@chuckross7952]

Exactly. Use hangers with different colors so people who want the original experience can only clip those. Every twenty feet for the 5.7 section…

[@lregoli]

Honestly, the only solid argument there is Eric Beck calling for more bolts. Adding bolts because unexperienced people tie to a rope and start climbing something without doing research simply leads to killing the sport for people who love it, and are responsible enough to do that research and an honest self-assessment of abilities. Simply stated, with all the new climbers coming into the sport through the popularization of gym climbing, no climbing route is safe in that regard. It will only be a matter of time until hoards of climbers want to "test" themselves on the walls of Fitz Roy, so what should we do? Put 1000 bolts on the Supercanaleta? Climbing has many disciplines, from bouldering to extreme alpinism, and each discipline has its own level of danger involved, and I don't see why it makes sense to some to move those boundaries. If someone is not comfortable with long runouts, or with sketchy gear placements on a trad route, no one is forcing them to do it instead of going to a sport crag, of which there are plenty. Truth is, what is pushing them too often is their own insecurities of trying to show off how brave they are on Instagram, or whatever social media they use, and that is not really going to change, because it is part of human nature. Another thing that indirectly causes these incidents, and that can easily be changed, is the absurdity of the grades that one sees in most indoor gyms, and this is motivated by money. Gyms benefit from feeding the egos of their members, and to do so, they let unexperienced climbers delude themselves thinking that they just on-sighted a 5.12-, only to go to a local (ideally) sport crag and find out that they can't get to the chains of a 5.9 slab route. Gyms could stop this cycle by setting up realistic grades, and let all the bros realize that they can barely climb 5.10-, but I bet a lot of them will get their egos crashed and go try a different sport. So yes, long story short: keep respecting the ethics of climbing, and let first ascenders decide. If they are still around (like Eric), then follow their advice (or let them do it if they still climb). If they are not around anymore, let the route alone (except for replacing old bolts). And if you are going to be climbing 30 ft above your last protection and at the absolute edge of your abilities, you are either on the wrong route, or you already accepted the possible consequences of a fall. I, for one, know exactly where I want to be, and that is at some other climb where I can have a good time without thinking that this might be my last breath.

[@ScotchGambino]

Snake dike is not the worlds most dangerous route. Come on dude.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

Statistically I believe the standard route on Annapurna is, due to avalanche risk (see his "scam" video)

[@ClimbingEasy]

Every climbers opinion counts on this topic. Thank you for sharing yours. Snake Dike is a weird one. You did even mention the approach and walk off. But also tires out unsuspecting climbers as well. BTW shout out to Tahquitz and Holcomb...nice. By the way what did you do on Tahquitz?

[@ascentionism]

IMO the approach and walkoff are a mixed blessing - it's a grind of a hike, but I've never felt cooler than I did walking down the Half Dome trail with all the tourists complimenting us on our climbing gear 😂 I kept it pretty light at Tahquitz. Did the Trough three times (ropes, simul, solo), Angels Fright, Fingertrip, and then West Lark and El Whampo. Hit Suicide for a day and was able to bag Flower of High Rank, which absolutely kicked my ass but what a gorgeous climb

[@Ascentyon]

"Climbing should be dangerous." is the most retarded thing ever... If you have that opinion, just go free solo and stop influencing the bolting of routes. There are already plenty of dangers with a 1 meter fall, you don't need 10-20m falls on slab which get your leg amputated kind of level of danger... This is like saying "You should ride a motorcycle without any protection", because the danger aspect of the motorcycle is what makes it fun.

[@ManoCentiMeter]

agreed, just fking put some bolts in

[@AlexAnder-ky2ce]

or you just do climbs that you consider safe and let other people do what they want. the world shouldn't be baby-proofed even though some people would love it to be this way

[@ripapa6355]

Agreed, but 1 meter? I hope you're not suggesting bolts be that close together.

[@cwtag]

​@@AlexAnder-ky2ceWhat if what other people want to do is put bolts in?

[@tomdavis3319]

Snake Dike aside, climbing has not changed, people have. Not all climbs are suited to all people. If you want to climb a super safe bolted route, choose a route that suits your ability, or put up your own route. A little perspective is in order- 1965, lug soled boots, no chalk, and no guide books- a little harder than today! Climbing would not be climbing if it were sanitized. Once you start editing routes to meet your perception of what is reasonable, you have gutted climbing of one of its most important attributes: Accurate self assessment, proper skill building, and paying your dues to grow yourself up to the challenge that has captured your desire. As to Snake Dike, if Eric Beck truly gave his blessing, that is something to consider. But how many bolts, and where? It is a very slippery slope. By my count there are 4 added bolts on the Steck-Salathé. That is a crime, both against history, and future climbers. We will lose much of what makes climbing great if we condone retro bolting.

[@SgtSnausages]

This guy gets it.

[@quezquez3084]

Obviously it has to have more bolts. No 5.7 should cause such terrible injuries such as amputated feet!

[@larryowens2859]

Leave it the way it was climbed, if you are scared don't climb it

[@ascentionism]

The first ascentionists literally asked someone to go retrobolt it but yeah pop off I guess

[@EvanWisheropp]

Add bolts and the wait at the base for your time to climb will quadruple. Already, you can expect to wait in line for several hours if you don't get very lucky. Once the climb becomes your typical clip up, the hoards will descend, ruining the experience. It has always been; train for years until you feel more than comfortable and safe to climb it. The argument, "people don't know how unsafe it is" isn't valid. The challenge and scare-factor of this route is WELL KNOWN. The grade even has an R in it, which means if you fall, you will get mutilated. This keeps the crowds down and makes for an awesome experience when you finally train and are plenty ready to pull it off. Bolting it only brings it down to the level of people who are too anxious or impatient to train and wait until they are ready. This in my opinion is a selfish "but I want it now!" attitude. "People don't know how hard Snake Dike is compared to their gym's 5.7" ... Well that just means they didn't do their research and didn't climb enough Yosemite slabs in preparation. If we were talking about a non-classic that just never gets done, I would entirely vote to retro-bolt it, but this is already one of the most popular routes in the world: It ain't broken... Don't "fix" it.

[@fejfo6559]

I don't get why there is a discussion, if you want danger, just don't use the new bolts. I can't understand how making a route safer can be a bad thing.

[@ZerolinGD]

fr

[@culann483]

Wow are you from Climbers Crag

[@uriel4829]

yes

[@bak122796]

Good news, WE own the national parks, not the old men who fired this route the first time. I intend to return and add bolts. I do not care.

[@eljed]

The worst part of that climb is the approach. Just climb it, or don't. It's ratted R . You're a climber. Not a gym jock. This comment is for everyone not the poster of this vid.

[@geometerfpv2804]

So much disdain in this comment...what is so bad about being a gym climber? It's fun. It's a cool hobby. It's something to do when you're not stuck at your 9-5. What is wrong with all these people? This old school mentality is such a joke. Bunch of "hard dudes"...

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

I genuinely don't understand the fetish with tradition and history. Why is it so important to not bolt the route? If someone wants to preserve their feeling if danger, no one is stopping them from skipping bolts or just free soloing. Why is it sooo important that you risj your life just to climb a route?

[@chrisgodsey8481]

If the bolts are there and you get scared enough you’ll clip it. Adding bolts would ruin the experience and feeling of accomplishment. And it’s 5.7. Get experience on California granite before hand.

[@geometerfpv2804]

@@chrisgodsey8481 Your presupposition is that accomplishment in climbing comes from keeping your head screwed on while doing something dangerous. I think you're gonna have to deal with the fact that very few people think this way. It's just a fun thing to do, we're not trying to have some life or death experience. Feel free to keep your lockers unlocked, that'll keep you on your toes! Sounds fun, eh?

[@chrisgodsey8481]

@@geometerfpv2804 I never said this at all. I just said the route is there for those who get accomplishment through this avenue of climbing. We don't need to bring the rock down to those who can't climb runout 5.4 calmly. Plenty of well protected 5.7 sport and trad routes out there for those who have no desire to push themselves through the sport. But for those who do, routes like this should be an option. Plus, it's the history, bro!

[@SgtSnausages]

Dangerous? Arguably. Most Dangerous? LoL.

[@SocietyIsUnravelling]

What are you looking at in this video? Yourself? It’s definitely not the camera.

[@hemming57]

NO!

[@jerrygreene1493]

If you care about safe recreation and other people you don't care about added bolts. Once every 10 feet is not overdoing it. I feel sorry for the girl. If you care about 'I climbed it with those bolts, so everyone else needs to do so too'. Basically if you come from a selfish me point of view you are anti adding bolts, if you are from a 'I care about other people' then you are pro safe climbing routes.

[@robertpearson9137]

I don't think it'll happen. Hand drilling is hard labor. New bolts in between the old ones wouldn't stand a chance there. Shippoopi would leave them at the base under a pile of his excrement. Replacing the old bolts would be good commie service, though.

[@Tferdz]

Let Americans solo everything. Rope is for beginners anyway right

[@ascentionism]

I actually cut a part out of this video where I basically say "if you're bitching about bolts being added, just go solo it"

[@westpacificmarketanalytics2384]

Make it more bolted you increase the risk of accident, more will climb it that should not!

[@jerrygreene1493]

You are deciding what people should climb what climbs? If you care about safe recreation and other people you don't care about added bolts. Once every 10 feet is not overdoing it. I feel sorry for the girl. If you care about 'I climbed it with those bolts, so everyone else needs to do so too'. Basically if you come from a selfish me point of view you are anti adding bolts, if you are from a 'I care about other people' then you are pro safe climbing routes.

[@JacobT-h4b]

Respect your elders and the methods they used to set up this world of climbing befor us. You’d be spitting in the face of climbing history. If you can’t handle the heat simply get out of the kitchen.

[@ascentionism]

The literal first ascentionist said to rebolt it you dumbheaded fuckwit

[@jimbailey9915]

@@ascentionism Stay in the gym sissy boy.

[@karabaia5417]

´´In the world`` literally just talking about NotrhAmerica and USA hahaha, it's not a hater comment, just asking myself if you explored Spanish (Spain because i am spanish) trad routes enough to say that a Yosemite's classic is more dangerous than some Urriellu's classic easy route establised in the 60s with no pro 🙄. Nice video anyway, I completly agree with your point

[@ascentionism]

Shhhh I'm just trying to get views so that squarespace gives me another contract In all seriousness, you're absolutely right, it's probably not the most dangerous route in the world - but I stand by the idea that it's popularity, grading, and bolting make it one of the most LIKELY routes for really bad falls to happen on

[@karabaia5417]

@@ascentionism I know! I get it, I'm not ofended, it just looks like Yosemite is the center of the climbing world and here climbing has been developed in paralel with "The Valley"... Actually a little bit jelaous because I wish I could climb there... But we also have granitte and cracks 💪

[@ChrisHaileyTrainHardDiveEasy]

Great vid Marcus 🤙 I love bolting new routes but this would be sacrilege... Warnings in the guides should suffice and anyone who doesn't have the skills or mindset to climb it can choose other lines to do 🤷‍♂ we are all equal on the slab right... everyone should know this 😂

[@ascentionism]

Thanks man! I totally appreciate where you're coming from and slab is absolutely the great equalizer 😂 My worry is that I'm not even sure everyone buys a guidebook - if you're visiting Yosemite on a short trip, you might be tempted to just make do with Mountain Project. That's what I did in Tahquitz, and I feel like it's becoming more popular. If there was a method of warning that I thought was sufficient, I would lean more against retro-bolting, but I'm just not sure what that would be. Warning signs at the start of the approach? At the base of the route? Would those even do anything? Also, I'm curious your thoughts - is it sacrilege if the first ascentionist is calling for more bolts?

[@ChrisHaileyTrainHardDiveEasy]

@@ascentionism Im not sure if you use them much in the US but Aus/NZ we use the crag which is all online and free to use. there are other ones like 27 crags, 8a that you can use for online warnings about routes but lets face it... If you don't do your due diligence about a monster trad climb like this you are walking into the belly of the beast!!! Does mountain project not have the information that this route is run out and sketchy? On the First Ascentionist saying their should be bolts thats another debate in itself that I don't think anyone has the answers too... Just because they did an FA does that mean they have the rights now some 40 years later to put bolts in... maybe... or maybe not as it could diminish the experience for those seeking the adventure and heightened risk that comes with this type of climb. Where else can you find such a climb... I dont even know why I am on this side of the fence... I don't even trad climb, I bolt routes to be accessible for everyone and get put out when the first bolt is super high even on easy climbing 😂but there something about these routes in Yosemite that tells me a lot of people will be really put out if they get retro bolted. Climbers should build their experience on the style before attempting such feats, this is not a climbing gym IMO... But Im just a nobody with one opinion, its great to see everyone chiming in and great to see videos like this being made which (if a climber doing their due diligence) should alert them of the dangers of this route and only attempt it if they have the minerals 😂

[@steveeb9567]

So we should just lower every climb to be user friendly ? People will always find a way to get hurt. This climb has been climbed thousands of time without incidence or sticky rubber climbing shoes. This climb has been free soloed in the moonlight without sticky rubber shoes. I see the accident sited as user error. They should have spent some time on the Glacier point apron.

[@ascentionism]

Did you get to the part in the video where I said "we shouldn't do this for every route?" Freerider has been free soloed. Should I go chop the bolts on freeblast??? If the dike is so easy and you're upset by bolts being added, just go free solo it. You're right. Maybe they SHOULD have spent more time getting used to the climbing style in yosemite. That's not a reason to not add bolts, though. Idk why people are so fucking unempathetic when it comes to stuff like this. This climber attitude of "you make the mistake of being unprepared so I have no sympathy for the fact that you might fall to your death" is dumb. Innexperienced people ARE going to get on this route, whether we like it or not, in larger quantites that almost any other route with 40-foot runouts in the world. I'd rather not sentence them to death for their incompetence just because "it's been free soloed in the moonlight"

[@steveeb9567]

@@ascentionism I think there's something to be said for leaving it the way the first ascent party did it. Not to be confused with whether a member of that party now thinks it's alright to add a bolt or two. It's history and deserves to be respected for it's boldness. Your analogue to freerider/freeblast is way off base. Free soloing and adding bolts are not the same. I don't remember the threat of hitting the ground on Snake Dike but it's been quite some time...Is that the case or was getting off route the cause for the grounder ? I suspect now that you have publicized this climb some self righteous noob will add some bolts.

[@lregoli]

@@ascentionism this was a silly response from your side. You are obviously a climber, so you know how different the nature of a climb is when there are bolts. The argument of "if you don't want to use the bolts skip them or free solo it" makes zero sense, except for someon who has never led a route in their entire life, so it's plan weird seeing it coming from someone who is indeed a climber. As I put in my comment, the fact that the first ascensionist calls for adding bolts is a very special case. But just adding bolts for the popularity of it, inevitably leads to the argument that Steve made. I doubt Snake Dike was as popular 20 years ago, and it's impossible to know what route will be popular 20 years from now, so yes, popularity and unprepared people jumping into a route is not a valid reason to make a route safer. The same reason why we shouldn't be talking about killing all grizzlies because people get mauled by them every year. Safety should be maximized for things that we absolutely need to do in our everyday life (airbags in cars, proper lighting on the streets, etc.), not for something completely optional and futile such as climbing. Instead of "if you don't like the bolts don't use them", the argument should be "if you don't like the risk factor, don't climb this route".

[@durbanskunk]

bolt it and it will be chopped

[@bak122796]

Then re-bolt it over and over and over till the Morons who chop it get the picture.

[@gustau4764]

Nevermind the first ascensionists; retro-bolting would void the experience of all those that have climbed the Dyke in its current exposed shape. More importantly, adding bolts would mean even more climbers on a route that is already crowded.

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

How wpuld it void the experience? They still did it in the exposed form?

[@bak122796]

So skip the bolts?

[@ClimbingADK]

Runouts keep out riff raff. If you want to climb bold routes, be a bold climber.

[@ascentionism]

But, like, the "riff raff" (aka "climbers who you just don't think are good enough") are already on the route. Idk why "keeping off the riff raff" is literally worth someone dying over