Should You Play as a Sorcerer or a Wizard? Comparing the Most Magical Classes in Pathfinder 2e

[@frederickbeuttler2811]

Take Spell Substitution wizard and get the best of both worlds! Prepare combat spells just in case, then you can take 10min to swap one out for a utility spell

[@tbruce8187]

I prefer Sorcerer just because I enjoy charisma based characters more.

[@Reevos]

One category I wish you would have gone over is Charisma vs Intelligence. I find Charisma to be a more useful skill for many adventures etc especially with demoralize, and the skill feats along that path.

[@schemage2210]

But on the flip side of that, the Wizard could spec into crafting and alchemy feats which isn't as useful in combat, sure, but can be amazing out of combat.

[@kryptonianguest1903]

A lot of the Recall Knowledge skills are Intelligence-based. Particularly when you consider that Lores always use Intelligence.

[@Reevos]

@@kryptonianguest1903 Yeah. That’s a skill I still rarely ever see used unfortunately.

[@kryptonianguest1903]

@@Reevos That is indeed unfortunate. Getting info on your enemies is very useful. Particularly for casters.

[@Reevos]

@@kryptonianguest1903 yes, but it seems the party make up outside of the occasional wizard, bard, or thaum doesn't allow for that.

[@gabrielrockman]

I prefer the Sorcerer to the Wizard. I like to build a character that specializes in a certain type of magic, rather than building a jack of all trades character that has a useful spell for any situation. It feels like my character has more of an identity or personality, more to roleplay with if I specialize in one type of magic than if I'm a jack of all trades when it comes to magic. In our current campaign, I'm playing an intelligence based spell caster, but I'm doing a Psychic with the Witch free archetype (because I really don't want to play a Wizard, I suppose). I specialize in control spells, mental damage, and slashing/bleed damage (and I have Soothe & Dispel Magic for healing/utility). I really don't mind having a smaller number of spells known. I'm also quite happy that I don't have to tell my DM what spells I have prepared each day, especially since we rarely think about it when completing a long rest. I really wouldn't want to be put on the spot every time we finish a long rest and having to answer if I'm making any changes to what spells I have prepared, especially if that means having a discussion about what I think the party will do that day, and how I want to adjust to that. I remember doing that in D&D 5e when I played a Cleric, and I really didn't enjoy that aspect of spellcasting. It ended up being that I would very rarely change what spells I had prepared each day, because it just wasn't worth the time to try to predict what more unique spell might actually come in handy that day.

[@stephenchurch1784]

Same. I always end up as a crowd control sorcerer. I love disabling half the enemies, then slowly kicking them to death while my less subtle brethren deal with anyone still moving. Bonus points for doing it as a small sized ancestry

[@ericwollaston5654]

I agree that the sorcerer makes you nail down what your character has focused on with their powers. They don't have the breadth a wizard can obtain, but can drive deep into a focus area. Flexibility versus Versatility.

[@bilboswaggings]

The players I have explained Spontaneous vs Prepared casters to have liked the distinction between being easier to play vs easier to build (as far as spells go specifically, not the classes themselves) Since if you are spontaneous you are stuck with whatever you choose (DMs ofc sometimes allow swapping for new players especially) so the spell aspect of building a character is harder for spontaneous, but they are easier to play day to day especially since you don't feel as bad not having a spell... nothing hurts more than realizing you should have prepared a different spell after the fact, hindsight is 20/20 after all

[@Freeze014]

wizard's int and recall knowledge associated skills, are a big PLUS for the wizard.

[@sethb3090]

One thing you didn't mention about spontaneous and prepared casting is heightening spells. To heighten a spell, a sorcerer has to either make it a signature spell or learn that spell at a higher rank. They can only cast the spell at a rank they've learned it at, so if you don't set Magic Missile as signature and don't pick say 5th rank magic missile as your new spell at level 9, you will be stuck with 1st rank magic missile forever. Prepared casters decide what rank to prepare a spell at every day. If they think they need a high-power magic missile, they can just stick it in a high rank slot. Overall though, I think the power of a wizard depends a lot on your ability to get Intel about things ahead of you. A wizard that has to just guess what might be lurking out there will always fall behind a wizard that knows they're going up a treacherous mountain into a cave of illusion traps to slay a black dragon.

[@Yarkoonian]

Seems the reverse of 5e. I think warlocks are spontaneous in that. Things are auto heightened in that. Interesting

[@SigurdBraathen]

Great video! One benefit sorcerers have: They're Key charisma and thus are better at Bon Mot! (which can debuff will save)

[@Tenuto40]

Loved your explanation! Some people argue whether Prepared is better or whether Spontaneous is better. The correct answer is...take both! In PF2e, you play in a PARTY! The beauty of having both a Spontaneous and a Prepared caster is that the Prepared caster will always have amazing longterm versatility and diversity while the Spontaneous caster has a lot more specialization and flexibility. Neither are better, but simply two different ways to approach the Spell Slot system.

[@sethb3090]

The fact that people can keep arguing about it means Paizo did a good job and didn't leave a clear winner.

[@Tenuto40]

@@sethb3090 Just a fun observation, I noticed that on the official forums, they staunchly believe Spontaneous casters are superior to Prepared casters. On every other media, I see balanced arguments with people sharing their amazing experiences on why Spontaneous/Prepared (and for some Flexible/"Impulse") casters work better for them. So you're absolutely right, Paizo did a great job trying to ensure there are various caster playstyles to meet many players desires! (Just for me, I personally prefer playing a Prepared Caster. I did Spontaneous in PF1e and I hated the rigidity of my spells per level. I just personally work better with Prepared.)

[@jonathanbennison9220]

From long experience, the Spontaneous needs to carefully select their spells, And invest in some 'just in case' scrolls or wands. The spontaneous Caster has flexibility, if, If, they have known spells that do apply. When either Caster lacks an applicable spell, or has run out of slots, The other truth about them comes out. Be prepared to run out of spells. PF2 has what 3.5 lacked. Infinity Cantrips, and functional combat after spells run dry. You may not compete with the fight or Ranger or Monk, But you don't need to be helpless or useless, when you don't have an applicable spell. If you build a character that can function when spells don't... Its a very different ballgame. One neat bonus to bring, at a very cheap premium. Would be one Medicine skill point, and one skill feat on battle medicine. Even if you don't invest further, Its enough to heal a fallen Cleric / Druid, when that moment happens, And its a bonus combat heal, basically a free low level heal potion. Otherwise, assurance Athletics can be a very wise investment, Even if you don't use it very often. Having some other contribution to the party beyond your magic, can be the thing that turns a Wizard / Sorceror / Cleric / Druid / Psychic / Witch / Bard,etc... To that next level of enjoyed and favorite PC. And don't forget those emergency scrolls. Backups for when the spellslots run dry. Emergency casting you never prepare otherwise. That thing you don't need usually, until you need 6 of them.

[@haroldemmers6428]

WIZARD No question about it.

[@TheLocalDisasterTourGuide]

I'm playing a Staff Nexus Wizard in my friend's 2e campaign, and we just hit 5th level. And, I have to say, I'm kinda mad with power now! LOL!

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Something else to take into account, Wizards can use downtime to memorize, then 'fix' problems of themselves or party members. For example, if a fighter picked up a cursed sword that he couldn't get rid of, a WIZARD could, next day, memorize, then cast dispel magic on the sword and turn it into a normal sword (for 10 minutes) that the fighter could drop. A Sorcerer is unlikely to even have dispel magic (as its so situational) and even if they did, it is unlikely to be their signature spell so they could't cast it at their highest spell rank. (okay, bad example, dispel magic says UNATTENDED object, but I think most reasonable GMs would let a willing person have their sword be affected.)

[@Reevos]

Technically you would need cleans affliction for that, but yeah that's definitely a valid reason to choose prepared.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

@@Reevos I mean, yes, cleanse affliction gets rid of curses too, but for specifically a cursed item, I think Dispel Magic would work as it would make the cursed item 'non-magical' for 10 minutes. Up to GM interpretation I suppose. Personally, I find it silly that wizards can't get rid of curses anymore.

[@Reevos]

@@PsiPrimeProductions1 Agreed, I find it silly, but I do think it was intentional as they seem to want to try to force archetypes on wizards for building out more spells etc. I think the improvements to be treated the same on all types of spells pushes that even more.

[@kidrissa]

Ok, you got me. Between this new series (I'm very much looking forward to it!) and your "How I Got Hooked on PF2e" video, I've subscribed. Helpful info for a new player trying to figure it all out. 👍🏾

[@jonathanbennison9220]

12:34 A neglected feature, doesn't impact the game positively. Agreed. Like, a Bard who doesn't Inspire. A familiar that isn't used. Especially one that has feats invested in it, and then still is neglected. A Domain that doesn't find frequent valuable use. Etc. Etc. Etc.

[@RebelThenKing]

Wow, it's like you've been reading my in-progress script for player mistakes. Leaving feats and features on the table and not using them is always a shame.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@RebelThenKing absolutely! Just finished a great session. Everyone starting to really find their stride. Detect Magic Scout, trap search Scout. Scouting, Scout. Two PCs have switched to Avoid Notice. They use Treat Wounds. They use Battle Medicine, They are leaning into the spells on their stave.

[@ericwollaston5654]

I have a Gnome Water Elemental Sorcerer that I used in Age of Ashes. With a Dragon Scholar background, I used my blood magic intimidation boost often as my character oozed water-power after spells. Fun

[@tinear4]

I am among those who missed the discrepancy between the wizard text (3 spells at level 1) vs table 3-19 (only 2 spells). TBH I still prefer sorcerer for the flavor, but you really have to lean in on your bloodline. If you don’t love your granted spells and focus spells, your options go way down.

[@RebelThenKing]

The bloodlines are a bit hit and miss, I think. The curriculums for wizard limit your spell selection for that extra spell slot, but at least you still have a few options. If you don't like one of your bloodline spells, well, I guess you don't have to cast it at least.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

I personally, always prioritize mechanics. If the class doesn't function well, it doesn't really matter how cool the fluff sounds. DMs are commonly more likely to revise, rewrite, or completely scratch build, narrative fluff for a character/class,... Than rewrite game mechanics. Same goes for any class. Ie. Play a pirate but use a Rogue or Gunslinger if it just works better to represent the crunchy guts under your story. Most of the suggested narratives for classes are, just that... Fluffy suggestions... One person's imagined narrative for one or two examples, of one Rogue, or one Cleric, or one Sorceror. Nothing stopping you from calling your wizard or Sorceror, A Mage. And then picking the mechanics you like best, and then writing the story you enjoy. Goal 1 is to have fun with friends. After all. PF2 did a decent job balancing most of the classes and providing us variety. But. Especially where they have inherited bias from the previous editions of (the other game) ... There are some inequalities lingering from the older versions. Should be interesting to see how Paizo gets creative, in following the new trend, and see what they do when they get ready to leave WotC behind in the past.

[@jacksonhorrocks4281]

With spell number, it's probably worth noting that preparing a spell you don't cast wastes a spellslot unless you have the 10 min. Swap feat. Thus a Sorcerer is probably less likely to waste spell slots.

[@AlexKlindt]

The wizard is undoubtedly more powerful due to its higher ceiling. The accessibility of learning new spells and the ability to easily slot in to crafting scrolls and other magical items gives a serious edge on top of the extra spell a day. However the wizard player needs to put the work in both in and out of table to figure out how to best apply their tools. The biggest edge the sorc player has over the wizard is access to their choice of spell list. The primal list in particular really shines on a spontaneous caster due to having a lot of the "bread and butter" spells across the traditions on it. The list has heal, fear, haste, fireball etc. along with good summoning and polymorph choices.

[@timbritton874]

Did you forget Signature spells for sorcerers? They auto heighten (if that spell does of course) for each level and powers up easier. Whereas for a wizard to cast a lvl 4 fireball for instance, that spell slot would need to be used.

[@VinceTenia]

I once ran a short campaign for some friends that was a riff on the storm kings thunder campaign. A friend came with a sorcerer who was supposed to be a reincarnation of a long dead lesser deity of winter so all their spells were cold and weather themed. In the first session this wasn't a problem but since the rest of the campaign was about fighting Ice Giants on frozen tundra and mountain peaks we came up with a (character) lore friendly work around which has become a staple magic item in my campaigns. Spontaneous casters can find a magic spell tome that allows them to; once per day, replace a spell in their repertoire with one from the spell book as well as store their previously known spell in the book. The book can only store 10 spells and can only store spells up to 5th level. Over the next 3 sessions that player had replaced almost every spell they initial had and sometimes swapped back and forth for some utility during exploration and was happy to return to theme when the next campaign moved south for some island hopping Piracy. They still have the book but I'm pretty sure they don't have a single spell it originally contained in it anymore.

[@aliciaseelentanz]

I don't know how much this factors in for people, but Sorcerer gets much more choice in the spell lists they use. My personal favourite class is Angelic Sorcerer for the Divine support/healiing spells and the overall theming and roleplay possibilities for the character (I know people generally say Cleric is a better healer, but Angelic Sorcerer is strong enough and provides a very different feeling to a Cleric) whereas to my knowledge, I think Wizards are only able to use the Arcane spell list, compared to Sorcerer being able to choose depending on their Bloodline. As someone that loves playing healer/support characters as well as Charisma focused characters, that's a big factor for me and I think its worth at least noting even if it may not be a big deal to some other players.

[@kevinbarnard355]

I haven't seen the sorcerer since the PC2 came out. I'm hoping their Blood magic got some buffing. I will add another difference between them. A Wizard is a better caster to play in a group with a stingy GM or a party that doesn't use consumables enough. Having a "wait a moment/day" attitude toward your magic means you can really take care of most problems given enough time. Sorcerers have to rely on their consumables more to answer those unusual challenges that are outside their repertoire. If the GM doesn't hand out consumables (low magic, thinks they are "too powerful") or the players sell/don't use them, then a Wizard has more player agency to respond to those unusual circumstances. A week of infiltration and diplomacy encounters might leave a combat heavy Sorcerer at a loss to contribute without access to scrolls and staves. The wizard can just likely swap their preparations. They should also take different approaches to Staves. It's my opinion that Wizards should look to staves for repeatability. They prioritize a magic staff that gives them several spells they want to cast more than once per day. Sure strike is great in a staff for a wizard with Attack spells, so is Force Barrage. Sorcerers on the other hand want staves that will give them more toolbox answers. Maybe damage types outside of their specialty, solution effects like Sound Body, Rank 2 Water Walk, or even themes on multiple staves (mentalist, fire, water) so that they can rotate their repertoire similar to a Wizard. A Staff of Fire is basically wasted on an Elemental Fire or Diabolic Sorcerer. It's better used by an Elemental Water or Fey Sorcerer to have more options.

[@blueperry5409]

Sorcerer base with wizard archetype. Ancient elf with borrowed ancestry (human) to get 2 more multiclsss feats, and you can get a solid build.

[@RebelThenKing]

This feels like it should be illegal, but it's legit 😆

[@block_the_]

It's nice to get the geist of the sorcerer class, and it will be interesting to see what they do with the class in July!

[@jonathanbennison9220]

17:05 Wizard vs Cleric. Compare. Don't forget the Font Spells. (Max Level Heal or Harm) When fighting Undead, with a Cleric with Heal Font, vs Without a Cleric. Even the Druid vs the Wizard. Druid vs Wizard might almost be a more fair comparison, except, that the Druid might still be more powerful. The Only thing a Wizard has going for it, over the other Prepared Casters, Is if it's spell list has a limited access, Uber powerful spell. Ie. If Arcane spells are themselves stronger than Primal or Divine or Occult. If not. And if not at every SPELL RANK, Then the other classes just do Adventuring better. That said. The comparison looked at very base models, and did not touch upon potential Class Feats. One example for a Bard or Sorceror, being Spontaneous and Charisma... They potentially have better return from innate Charisma spells (ancestry?)

[@BlueSapphyre]

I’ve always played Sorcerer over Wizard because of the flexibility. I hate the idea of preparing spells I think I’ll need and be useless for the day because I prepared wrong. “I prepped all these fire spells and everything is resistance/immune to fire.”

[@RebelThenKing]

The struggle is real as a wizard.

[@TakaD20]

sorcerer-wizard-multiclass :D I don't play Pathfinder yet, but I like your videos. Carry on.

[@YellowCable]

prepared spells is a big limitation; the sorcerer should be balanced with less spells per day but isn't. It is instead limited by less spells known, which to a careful planner is less of a limitation than it sounds. In Dnd 5e 2024 they removed even this limitation making wizard basically a worse sorcerer in most situations.

[@lincr.1988]

I really don't like the Harry Pottery theme of Wizards, that makes spells feel like a science, plus I hate the lack of mid day flexibility of Prepared spellcasters, so I much prefer the Sorcerer, whose magic feels more mysterious and wild. I also love that Sorcerers can belong to any tradition and can tap into other traditions as well (Crossover Evolution) ♥️ That being said I find Wizards stronger specifically because they can have what no other Prepared spellcaster in the game can: Spell Substitution. That combined with the Drain Bonded item makes the Wizard almost as versatile as Sorcerers, it's kinda having the best of both worlds, which is pretty op imho.

[@okagisama]

Spell substitution is definitely interesting if you fear being stuck. But i'd argue Spell blending to be really cool and powerful at higher levels, where most low-level spells feel lost for the daily adventure.

[@jeffersonromao4999]

I think wizards cast more spells because of his class features

[@FluffyFailure0]

Do you get any other effective benefit from the Staff Nexus arcane thesis, other than just one more prepared cantrip per day? Because it's certainly doesn't seem to be fixed in the remaster, as far as I can tell. I would like to play with the concept a little, but if the staff is all I'm after I might as well just buy one and go with a different arcane thesis. :3

[@Nth2AK]

Wizards with the Staff Nexus arcane thesis are kind of interesting. There are arguments why other arcane theses might be better picks, but if you like the benefit of magical staves in PF2, as far as the daily charges equal to the highest level spell you can cast and a spell you can spell to power it, the Staff Nexus arcane thesis, makes the magical staff even more versatile. It definitely be as good in a campaign where the DM allows you to craft or find customized magical staves, but if you are just playing the ones out of Paizo books, there is a nice benefit with the Staff Nexus Wizard as they will always have a staff with that extra cantrip and extra first level spell. The upshot is that if you select a spell that you can use often, like Sure Strike (formerly True Strike) in your magical staff you can get a tremendous number of castings a day. Like if you are playing a 5th level wizard and expend one of your 3rd level spells to power up a Staff of Fire (or whatever) that would give you the ability to cast six Sure Strike spells or whatever you picked each day.

[@FluffyFailure0]

@@Nth2AK Thank you for the quick reply. So what you're saying is you can cast Force Barrage three times instead of casting it at third rank. Well I can admit it is an option, sacrificing a third ranks spell slot to get three charges, but I couldn't call it a spell slot well spent. But I suppose that is a way to build your character around spamming Sure Strike to boost your spell attack rolls for cheap. So yeah, I think I can see the positives of Staff Nexus now, but you won't benefit from it until at least level 3, and only if you're going for a very specific build, as far as I can tell. But still, as it stands now it would be nice if it gave you one additional charge by default. Because as it stands it's a literal downgrade for characters level 1-3 compared with any other arcane thesis. But is there any other spell that directly benefits from Staff Nexus other than Sure Strike? Because you can get a Staff of Divination with Sure Strike built in, too. :3

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Staff eventually also. Allows you to spend more Slots on more spells. Which, to compare to a Cleric for example. Our Cleric spends 1 healing font slot, to get more charges, in the Healing Staff, Which they can then use to cast Healing spells from. They can still choose any level to cast, ie, with the Greater Staff, they can cast rankn1/2/3, So, having more charges doesn't sacrifice healing. Heal spell also scales fairly evenly. In terms of charges spent. What the greater staff offers is versatility. It allows them to cast other spells instead, without committing to prepared slots. So they would probably enjoy being able to spend 2 or three spell slots for MOAR charges in the staff. Now look at the Wizard. The Wizard could spend spell slots they don't use as much. For example, if the Wizard wants to cast rank 3 magic Missiles, Dropping 2 2nd rank slots, provides 4 extra charges. Now they have 7 charges, and could, cast full power Missiles instead of weaker ones. Similarly, if the Wizard has a Lightning staff... They could prepare MOAR charges, for that versatility. If the staff has 2 or 3 options at 3rd rank. Then charges, equal options. Instead of choosing one spell, I chose variety there. Staff seems to have value, if you invest well.

[@jonathanbennison9220]

@@FluffyFailure0 Even if you were to use 1st or 2nd rank slots, If your staff provides any variety in its spells... That's potentially valuable. Question. Can you use wizard slots, to prepare a staff you can use from a different tradition? Ie. What if you unlock a primal or divine spellcasting tradition? Perhaps through archetype? Would that allow a Wizard to use a healing staff?

[@FluffyFailure0]

@@jonathanbennison9220 Sorry for taking so long to get to this. But, how is Staff Nexus a better choice at level 1 or 2, over any other Arcane Thesis? The first staff you can buy is a level 3 item, and its number of charges equals your highest level spell slot, plus any spell slot you personally spend. Now any caster can use a staff although they're better for prepared casters. And I know an increased spell selection is good and all, but I wish I could say the same thing about the staff selection, in my personal opinion. And I must ask how many spells are there that don't Heighten and don't become redundant, other than Sure Strike? Because, currently you can only cast the spells at the ranks they are listed as, in the staff description. And so I just failed to understand how Staff Nexus is better or equal to any other arcane thesis. But, to answer your question as far as I know, I think you need to be able to have access to the associated tradition and be able to cast spells of an appropriate rank from set tradition. So just because you can cast divine cantrips does not mean you can cast rank 1 divine spells such as heal, unless you can also prepare rank 1 divine spells and so on, for example, unless you're DM rules otherwise.

[@schemage2210]

Can't deny that they is always a huge point of pride being the Wizard with a spellbook with every spell imaginable. BUT how many times do campaigns just drop a fire sorcerer in the plane of fire for the rest of the campaign (months if not years of content)? Sure the Sorcerer might have to be nerfed during that temporary trip to the fire plane but that is all it is, a temporary trip. Point is, Sorcerers are typically built around the campaign so they are never going to be surprised by a permanent change of location that they can't survive in. So is the benefits of being a prepared caster all that massive?

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Some campaigns have fairly bug changes from day to day, level to level of the Dungeon, chapter to chapter, region to region. Some campaigns, yes. Same thing for a Cleric or ~~Paladin~~Champion though... If they heavily specialized in fighting undead, They will enjoy more success, or miss the mark, when their enemies change directions. Like the Favored Enemy playstyle. Works great when it works. When it's obsolete, or irrelevant, Did you leave yourself versatility? Multipurpose function? Do you have alternate options? Emergency scrolls for the scenario your sorc spells are weak against?

[@tuffn00gies]

I think you forgot to mention that sorcerers aren't locked into just the arcane spell list.

[@RebelThenKing]

That is true, so a point for flexibility should be awarded to the sorcerer. I almost wish you could pick your spell list independent of your bloodline, but that might be TOO many possibilities.

[@Sxiber]

I wonder who bard will be paired with

[@JEFFALITY]

Wizard 100%

[@TheWizard10008]

👍👍👍

[@KaZlos]

or play a druid and know all spells AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

[@jonathanbennison9220]

Druids. Yes. 100

[@thorinbane]

D20 magic blows. Rolemaster, gurps, mythras all do it better