Should You Rent Or Buy An Airplane?

[@projekt6_official]

Excellent video and spreadsheet. I've downloaded it to play around with. Appreciate it and thanks for sharing!

[@flywiththeguys]

Not a problem. Glad you liked it all.

[@robkeene4511]

Where do I find the link for the spreadsheet?

[@FWTG]

Rob Keene it’s in the description.

[@scottfranco1962]

Advantage of owning your own airplane: Its quite reasonable if you resist the urge to buy upgrades/accessories. Disadvantage of owning your own airplane: You won't resist.

[@flywiththeguys]

LOL. Yes, the pride of ownership will drive us to make it better and better.

[@copcuffs9973]

New BOM powered by wind /wireless connection ~2K

[@tomedgar4375]

For me pride of ownership played a much larger part of my decision. Got tired of beat up rentals.

[@flywiththeguys]

So true. There is a large level of pride owning and caring for a plane.

[@justdewit]

And scheduling conflicts!

[@mplondon1264]

Was it costly?

[@tomedgar4375]

@@mplondon1264 Depends on the definition. I bought a Comanche 250 as it fit my mission and I knew the previous owner and history of the plane. There are cheaper options. Insurance is expensive for complex planes

[@mplondon1264]

@@tomedgar4375 I'm looking into private lessons but I was wondering how simple it is to own a plane.

[@RandyBroderick]

There is definitely some value to the ownership lifestyle. When I was renting, overnight or multi-day trips were not allowed. Having your own plane available whenever you need it is priceless IMO.

[@flywiththeguys]

I agree. Hopefully I'll pull the trigger next year. Was going to do it this year, but RONA had something to say about that.

[@thomaspinto1111]

You missed out on some very important facts. I owned two airplanes a single and a twin. Owning your own plane is safer. And much more fun! On my own aircraft I added strobes to increase visibility. An inexpensive but significant safety addition.. A big problem in renting is getting the aircraft back to the FBO on time. Marginal weather is a big issue. There is a lot of pressure to return the aircraft. When you own your own you can simply wait until good weather arrives. Another factor involves restrictions on flight. Many FBO's will not permit night flying with a private pilot's license or landing on grass strips. when you own an aircraft you can get permission to go along with the mechanic during the annual inspections and assist him/her. This experience is invaluable. You will also know that your aircraft is mechanically safe.I worked as a flight instructor and can tell you as a fact that many rental airplanes have safety issues. I lost an engine while IFR in the rain in a rental aircraft because a required AD had not been performed. Many FBO's require a flight plan. On a cross-country flight you may suddenly decide you want to go up and check something out. Perhaps to take photographs. If this operation is not on an approved flight plan you may not be insured by the rental agreement. I hold commercial instrument multi-engine land sea plane and helicopter ratings, with flight instructor endorsements.

[@flywiththeguys]

Believe it or not, these arguments were in the original script, but were removed in the end to help focus the video and maintain a more high level overview. But, they are still apart of another video we're working on on why you should own your own plane. =)

[@landen99]

Wait! You can fly at night with just a private pilot license? You don't need the instrument rating for that?

[@goldbuyer]

@@landen99 , Yes you can, You actually need 3 hours of night flying in order to get your license

[@mctransportation9831]

Which fbo is pressuring you to fly in bad weather?

[@CowBeatsCrow]

​@@ethanswimmer1287 I'll let my female A&P friends know, lol

[@roythurston7799]

Hell of a presentation with lots of great information. That’s breaking it down.

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad you liked it! I learned a lot myself when I made this one.

[@timf5534]

Best video on the internet about making the decision to rent or own. Short, sweet, and right to the point. Thank you!

[@flywiththeguys]

You’re welcome. Glad you found it valuable!

[@mafarachisi]

DEFINITELY!!!

[@747-pilot]

Your video is the only one I've seen on KZbin, that covered one of the most important aspects of this discussion, what I like to call, the _"gamble component"_ of BUYING an airplane. I would go farther, and put even more emphasis on this aspect! In my humble opinion, one should not buy an airplane, unless one has set aside at least a good *10 to 15 grand* for "aircraft emergencies". Either that, or have a good chunk of that available on a credit card or something. Just one or two big repairs, can drastically alter the economics of that Rent vs. buy comparison chart! (I'm not talking about the engine TBO, which is a REGULAR maintenance item). Airplanes are inherently expensive things, and repairs can get very costly in a hurry!! (all kinds of things, including ADs - Airworthiness Directives). No matter how much due diligence you do when purchasing one, you can get very unlucky and end up with a HUGE repair bill, something you will not have to deal with when renting, as it is *_someone else's problem!_* When they say that you have to be at least somewhat well off to buy and own an airplane, there is definitely some truth to that statement!!

[@flywiththeguys]

Oh I totally agree. I didn't want to get too deep into the details on maintenance and costs of ownership. This was just supposed to be a comparison between renting and buying. Now, I'm planning on a buying a plane video soon. I'll be doing a deep dive into the buying aspects in that one.

[@davecue2]

Part of it also depends on how often and far you want to fly and if you like to stay over night.

[@flywiththeguys]

So true. I would say that's a lifestyle choice. =)

[@jpfloors1]

Great spreadsheet!! Thank you. I'm currently trying to decide if I should sell my plane and just go back to renting. Ownership is $$$$$

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad you liked the spreadsheet. Every plane is different on ownership costs. We just got another plane for the club and it blew the engine within 30 hours. Our other plane has been going strong for 4 years and 800 hours.

[@MultiCohones]

Wish all informative videos where like yours. Very punctual, very informative, very well made, answered all my questions. Very big thanks for the high quality content.

[@flywiththeguys]

Thank you for the complement. Thats literally our goal with most our videos. Glad you liked it!

[@airplanekid333]

The issue with owning an airplane in my area is hanger availability is a 3 year long waitlist, buying one outright is just as much as a mortgage. The nearest airport with availability and decent prices is just under an hour away. I'd like to see hanger expansions and airport infrastructure but it takes local area taxes to do and most politicians put airports on their low priority list.

[@flywiththeguys]

Around here it's a year, but there's all kinds of space at the airport 20 minutes away. I'm just lucky to be in a area that has a lot of airports.

[@airplanekid333]

@@flywiththeguys Nice that is the way it should be! Everything is so spread out here in colorado. I might consider getting this good deal on a hanger over at GXY though. I guess I will just drive an hour to fly an hour haha!

[@airplanekid333]

@NonyaBusiness! That would be awesome. The airport community 20 minutes south of me is going for around a million, it is insane!

[@jeffswartwood7316]

You rarely find in these discussions how unbelievably convenient it is to live in an airpark and fly your airplane out of your front yard. Although I paid for my hangar along with the house and land that money is not being burned up in rent. I don’t have to drive any distance at all to get to my plane and it’s easy to work on it, clean it or take it out for a spin in my free time. A lot of people do not realize there are many airpark options located near them and many of them are affordable. I think the airpark lifestyle is truly one of the best aviation lifestyle options out there and is a total game changer when it comes to owning an airplane.

[@1compaqedr8]

Jeff Swartwood get some land build a home and airstrip all in one. That would be ideal

[@Austin.D]

if you have the extra money to spend go ahead and buy one but if your just starting out and having to pay for the other stuff like ground school exams and Flight instructor I recommend renting one

[@arshbeersingh8226]

I can hardly afford intermet to watch it 😂

[@flywiththeguys]

LoL. But if there’s a will, there’s a way!

[@bahamasking2063]

Lol

[@Virtualmix]

You forgot to consider a major item: The time it takes to look after your plane, organize maintenance and all the other things your club spend hours to do.

[@flywiththeguys]

Honestly, taking care of your own plane is a lot easier. I managed a club for about 2 years. When that planes flying, things come at you fast. When its just you, its so much better.

[@xinzhangli8324]

This is very great video and great spreedsheet. But I think you forgot talk about one thing. Most of the plane rental company requires something like 4hrs per day min. if not, they will charge 4hrs regardless if you fly or not. That being said, if I want to fly from CT area to Philadelphia on friday night and stay their for over weekends. I will be charged 12 hrs in rental but owning a plane will just be 3 hours round trip. Even though I want to make a one day round trip, I still need to pay 4 hrs rental instead of 3 hrs actual flying time. If you are flying for flying, rental would be great. But if you are flying for something, the 4hrs per day min kills me a lot. lol

[@flywiththeguys]

I've heard of places charging a daily minimum if you rent a plane for an overnight trip. This is to recover potential lost income from missed rentals. Local flights, they usually only charge you for flight time during your scheduled rental. Where you're renting from seems more like the odd ball out on this one.

[@xinzhangli8324]

@@flywiththeguys Thanks for the reply even after 3 years this video posted!! You are correct. if you planning on cross country and stay at destination for few days, owning a plane would be better. plus, if you feel like something you don't like the plane and want to upgrade, you can just buy whatever avionics you want to upgrade and just upgrade whereas rented plane, you can't do that.

[@Anthony-jw3mk]

Great video! This is an excellent example of how the comparison videos should look like.

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks! I had fun making this one. It’s a question a lot of people ask.

[@yacoub604]

Good comparison chart , another point in favor of owning; is the equity value in the airplane. A well maintained airplane often times holds its value well.

[@flywiththeguys]

Absolutely! I didn't want to get too deep into the details and summed this up with saying you have money tied up in a plane until you sell it. Airplane values are on the rise.

[@yacoub604]

Fly With The Guys still a great chart, best comparison out there ...great job.

[@PenAirPilot]

Wow, thanks a million! Super well done and thanks for the tools for consideration

[@flywiththeguys]

No problem. Glad it helped. =)

[@jillward3951]

This is amazing. Thank you for putting this together and sharing the spreadsheet!

[@flywiththeguys]

Not a problem. I hope the spreadsheet helps!

[@azcountry6064]

Excellent video with great information! The spreadsheet is well laid out and intuitive. Now, time to go to work on it.

[@flywiththeguys]

Good luck! Glad you found it helpful. =)

[@leonjuliano]

I still want to have my own DHC-2 "Beaver" or Cessna 195!

[@flywiththeguys]

Both very nice looking aircraft.

[@hachipanki8634]

Oh man, the Beaver is a beautiful one! Some day i want to have my own AT6 Texan/Hardvard, but It's just a dream.. . At the time!

[@Kim_shines]

Thank you for the spreadsheet! Real blessing.

[@flywiththeguys]

Hope it helps!

[@brandonjohnson8880]

Here's something that you left out of your calculation: when you buy your own plane (financing) you are building equity in an asset. This isnt a strict liability so it further reduces break even (considering asset value)

[@flywiththeguys]

This is true! Airplanes have been appreciating as well. 172s are starting to cost as much as 182s.

[@bahamasking2063]

Thanks for this video. A seaplane would be ideal for where I live. But they cost more. So I am going with a older plane to get my hours done quickly.

[@flywiththeguys]

Good choice! Get your training done in something inexpensive, then get the seaplane add on later. It'll help more then you think. =)

[@bahamasking2063]

Fly With The Guys Thanks for replying. I see plenty older ( 1960-1980’s ) single engine planes going for $13,000-$30,000. Is there a risk in buying or should get something in the 90’s?

[@flywiththeguys]

@@bahamasking2063 There's no risk as long as it has been maintained well and had the logs to back it up. SOmething with a good mid time engine is always nice. Never buy something close to needing to be replaced, those are usually the really cheap ones. But remember every aircraft is built for a purpose. Just find one that suits your needs for now and later.

[@bahamasking2063]

Fly With The Guys Thank you so much for all the info

[@MyWTFName]

I find a key item is always overlooked in the comparison. Renting is money you'll never get back. Owning a plane has a resale value, and most times equivalent to purchase price. After (x) years of owning a plane, in this example, you'll get $50K that should be amortized into the calculations.

[@flywiththeguys]

There are a lot of ways to look at the money you spend on the plane itself as an asset. I'll be doing a buying a plane video soon that should take a lot of this into account.

[@brianmorgan3659]

Something else to concider is if you take someone with you.you are allowed to charge a prorate fee that includes the rental cost. Ie , 150 per hour WET would be 75 , If you own the plane, you can only charge for the operating cost (fuel) a prorate share.

[@flywiththeguys]

That's another way to look at it. Sharing is a good way to lower your cost depending on the mission.

[@brentl7437]

Get your commercial license, and you can charge whatever you want! :) Not sure if it would work, but if you own the plane, maybe you can charge 'car shuttle' fees to airport from home, and similar?

[@SquawkVFR1981]

One of the better video´s regarding aircraft purchase.

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks!

[@timmartin6410]

Great overview on owning vs. renting. No question if I were blessed with the requisite cubic dollars, buying would be my preference. I'd like the "Lifestyle" and convivence. But realistically I'll probably be flying

[@flywiththeguys]

The rate problem seems to always be compounding. With the Red Rocket build I feel like I'm finally going to be able to just have fun!

[@scottfranco1962]

Ps. Most flight renters are not ok with you taking the aircraft overnight or multiple days, such as making a trip to go skiing. They consider your taking the airplane and parking somewhere else as lost money.

[@flywiththeguys]

This is a BIG con for me. I didn't include it in the list, but I should have.

[@danieledwards3376]

Even if you have the cash to buy outright, you should still "charge yourself" an interest rate in comparison calculations to reflect the opportunity cost of the return you could otherwise be getting if you invested the money elsewhere.

[@fbibarbie]

Wise words

[@copcuffs9973]

LOL, "Steve" @5:44 Steve moved and gave me his 4X4. That winter a Honda slide down a snow covered hill and bounced off the fender into two more 4X4s. I still got 3,500 when I sold it before being deployed overseas.

[@flywiththeguys]

LOL. We all know a Steve. =)

[@airops423]

Something you completely forgot to mention is the future time value of money. Sure you mentioned that your money is tied up if you purchase the aircraft outright and you get it back when you sell it, but during this period you must take into account the opportunity cost of not investing that money. In the market long-term, you can expect on average 7% - 10% returns. This opportunity cost can be significant, especially if you're talking about purchasing a $50K+ aircraft with cash-- over the course of just five years, the opportunity cost is potentially ~$30K if you purchase a $50K aircraft, excluding potential aircraft appreciation. The way to go from what I have found is to purchase an aircraft with one or two partners who intend to fly between 50 to 100 hours/year. The aircraft will almost always be available when you want to fly it, and on the rare occasion it's not and for some reason you need it, you can usually work with your partner(s). This significantly lowers the cost of ownership since both the principal and annual fixed costs are split two or even three ways. Furthermore, you spread out the risk of unexpected expensive maintenance across multiple individuals. This means that in a partnership, you maintain pretty much all of the pros with maybe a slight decrease in availability while getting to enjoy significantly reduced ownership costs (typically much cheaper than renting).

[@flywiththeguys]

I'm going to make a video on partnerships and clubs eventually, and this will for sure be something I'll be talking about. Thank you for the comment!

[@thatsrich944]

The future time value of money is always a consideration. The owner of the aircraft has an advantage over the renter since they can choose to rent out the aircraft as a source of income and/or to cover operating costs, when not being used by the owner. This is a common practice among aircraft and yacht owners of all net worth levels. I have flown on a number of planes owned by high level executives and celebrities who have gone this route. Also, since the aircraft would then become a business asset, all of the costs associated are tax deductible and the purchase price of the aircraft can be depreciated over time. In the video example, using the estimated yearly total cost of ownership and the estimated hourly rental cost, the owner would only have to rent the plane out for a total of 53 hours per year to break even on the plane. Anything beyond that would be "profit." With only an additional 38 hours of rental income, you have made your 10% return on the original $50,000. So, as long as you can rent it out for 91 hours per year, you have an aircraft for free and $5000 in gross annual profit. Of course the operating costs, and other amounts would change based on the hours rented, but this is just an over-simplistic example. This is a much better and predictable way to generate a 10% return than in the markets, since an airplane can be insured for zero risk of capital loss, whereas a portfolio can lose 100% of value or more, with no recourse. Cheers!

[@airops423]

@@thatsrich944 This is interesting. I'm currently in the market for an aircraft and this seems like a great idea. Do you happen to have any resources you could point me to on doing this?

[@thatsrich944]

​@@airops423 I don't, unfortunately. But, I would guess that you can check with some air charter companies. Since they are arranging flights for hire, they would be the ones to coordinate rentals for you. They probably own some of their own aircraft and also source from private parties like yourself. They also provide/source pilots for the rental, if not rented by a pilot. Nearby flight schools are also a possibility, depending on model/type... if you are fine with students operating your plane. You could try to do it on your own, doing the marketing, setting up the agreements, handling all the mechanical/legal issues, but that will be a lot more work. All depends on what you want to do. I think if I were going to do it, I would research a lot up front, put together a business plan, and likely purchase a brand new aircraft, with some of my own money, private investors and/or a loan. I would make sure over the projected service life of the aircraft, that the purchase price, recurring costs (maintenance, repairs, inspections, storage, insurance, ferrying), other expenses, and my expected hours of flight each year would all be covered. It would also be a good idea to shoot for a decent return/profit. If you have investors, they will be looking to get a return on investment, so a loan may be a better option. Of course if you have or are planning to attain your CPL (or CPC), then you can fly your own customers, too. In the end, if you could find a way just to break even and cover the cost of your own flights, then you've saved a ton of money, flown for free and own your own aircraft! Hope that helps.

[@airops423]

@@thatsrich944 Interesting.. I'm familiar with the leaseback model for flight schools, but I definitely don't want a bunch of students using the aircraft (not to mention that would quickly drive up the maintenance costs). Not sure how popular chartering a single engine aircraft is, unless perhaps I purchase an SR22 or something. My budget is like $80K. I was considering purchasing a nice Cherokee 180 or something similar with a few partners. Purchasing a Cherokee by myself and doing a leaseback with a flight school is definitely doable as an alternative, but then it will get beaten up by a bunch of students. Chartering Cherokees doesn't seem particularly popular. I guess that leaves me with looking for my own renters?

[@davidcollier3604]

I would characterize a "Club" or a "partnership" as a hybrid between renting and owning. Large clubs with multiple A/C will seem a lot renting. Small clubs with limited membership and a single A/C can be like owning with decreased overall cost over solo ownership.

[@flywiththeguys]

Depends on the club. Some cost more in monthly dues than financing a plane, then you still have to rent them. I should do a video on partnerships though.

[@speedomars]

There are at least three reasons to own, 1. control (owners control what they own, they don't need permission or are restricted in use or changes). 2. known quantity, a rented thing comes with unknown damage, often hidden problems that may or may not affect you. 3. access (you use it when and how often you want and on the best weather days, rentals have to be scheduled and that may come with a marginal weather situation). So, if you want to have control, freedom and fly often, own. If you are okay with being at the mercy of others, then rent.

[@flywiththeguys]

1 and 3 are kind of the same. But all good points! I've been renting forever and and hate treating the plane like a ticking time bomb. You NEVER know what the last person did to it, you only see new "damage" when they get back. Like tires, scratches, dings, and hanger rash.

[@speedomars]

@@flywiththeguys I have been lucky because I bought an SLSA (Flight Design) new to train and checkride in...the wife trained in a flight school and trained in a 'used' and beat up Flight Design. That was the plane that nearly killed her and her CFI when a throttle cable stuck on a flight one day and the CFI had to cut the engine and still make the airfield. When we both got our tickets we bought our current plane, a new Cirrus SR22T. So except for the intro flights neither of us has ever rented. When we first got the Flight Design we rented hangar space and quickly saw how your 'baby' can be damage by others putting their aircraft away next to yours. So we bought hangars too. I sympathize with those that have to rent plane and hangar space. They are more patient than we are...

[@alfs3]

that damn steve....lol good, informative video as i've been looking to get my license and buy a small single

[@flywiththeguys]

I know right!? Good luck in your aviation journey!

[@alanaspurling6469]

In my case the closest FBO that has multiple aircraft for rental is 80 miles away, while the closest Public GA airport is a mere 15 miles away. 130 miles round trip of driving to rent an airplane... 30mpg and $3/gallon results in an additional.... $0.10 per mile or $13 fee for each rental session.... at minimum currency standards that’s $52 to add per year. But say I’m training 3 times per week for 3 months that’s $468 just for these three months.... so it might be significant or not... In my case that, and my experience with scheduling conflicts. I decided to purchase my own airplane. I got a good deal on a 60 year old Piper for under $20k I’ve got 4 seats, an 150 hp Lycoming, and a 900lb useful load any time I want to go up.

[@flywiththeguys]

Great choice! Everyones needs are different and it's not always a numbers game. 130 miles round trip is a beast 3 times a week.

[@DanCoastie]

Great video sir. I keep weighing the pros and cons!

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks! There are more pros and cons, these are just the major ones.

[@DanCoastie]

Fly With The Guys I’m just a few hours away from my private check ride. I can’t imagine having to keep renting at the prices I’m currently paying...it’s outrageous

[@flywiththeguys]

@@DanCoastie I was chatting with someone over on reddit about his plane rental costs. He says they are nice 172 with round dials and a GPS, but it's costing him $220 an hour wet. I just... I cant even.... He needs to find a new flight school. Oh and make sure to check out our video on the private pilot checkride. Good information in that one!

[@DanCoastie]

Fly With The Guys I’m flying a PA-28 wet for $155/hr plus instructor cost of $64. It’s the only 141 school in town and I’ll be using them to get my instrument with my GI bill

[@mountainmarauder2575]

Nice presentation! A good follow up would be an in depth discussion on insurance. Renters can end up with disastrous financial outcomes in an accident or incident where the insurance carried by the aircraft rental company does not cover all the claim.

[@flywiththeguys]

I'll have to add that one to my list. Thank you!

[@mafarachisi]

Excellent video!!!!! Appreciate the calculator

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad you enjoyed it! Hope it helps!

[@albertvonschultz9137]

Mother Flying Club that I belong to years ago they had Cessna 152, 172 and 182. I was looking at buying a piper 260 and possibly leasing it back to the Flying Club that way it made Revenue paid for itself in two years and the ability to rebuild the engine and had the thing payment and tax-free

[@flywiththeguys]

Some clubs or lease backs are really good ways to get your plane paid for. We're working on a video for that.

[@MattyCrayon]

Excellent info. I’ve been thinking about this as I chase 100 command for my CPL. If your viewers are interested I did a kids video on airshows too 👍🏻❤️ Matty Crayon Goes to an Airshow

[@IIghostu]

Thank you love your spread sheet calculator. Super tool

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad it was helpful!

[@loganreuter6072]

I don’t care what they say I’m going to get my P-51 somehow!

[@flywiththeguys]

And I'll get my Corsair F4U somehow. www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/47839523/1951-chance-vought-f4u-corsair

[@airsoftlock7593]

Ever hear of the T-51? Its a poor mans P-51, still looks, and sounds amazing

[@loganreuter6072]

Yeah but it’s just not the same lol. My a full size replica or something like that.

[@gravitysdaughtr]

And I'll get my mooney!

[@allthingscessna281]

Haha good one.. My name is Steve also. Great comparison video.

[@flywiththeguys]

Thank you!

[@Entroper]

Goddammit Steve!

[@jamesmorton7881]

Very useful information ! I CAN OWN THAT TIGER.

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad it was able to help. Love the Tiger. =)

[@stevegilbert58]

Great info, love the spreadsheet! I’m looking at doing a 2 person partnership to get my flight training started with another guy that has about 450 hours. My private written test is tomorrow morning! And my name is Steve, so I don’t want to be the rental hog!!

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks! I hope you find the spreadsheet helpful. Good luck on your test! Remember, passing is passing.

[@pittss2c601]

I've owned 14 airplanes 2 of which I built as experimental airplanes from kits. Several of my airplanes were high-performance aerobatic airplanes. They all take a tremendous amount of maintenance to keep them perfect. Like 2 hours of maintenance for every 1 hour of flight. It's a total pain in the neck although extremely rewarding. The real problem with flying in general is the liability these days. If you go down and hurt someone's property or heaven forbid injure or kill a person you could financially lose everything. That's the real challenge with sport flying. And I have had so many engine outs that I've lost track.

[@flywiththeguys]

I find owning a plane very rewarding. Even now I spend time taking care of one thats not even mine and I love it.

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

Lifestyle was the biggest reason I bought a plane. I love being able to go fly my plane on a whiim whenever the weather is nice and I want to go somewhere. I didn't like the idea of having to coordinate with other people and I wanted a better plane than what's available for rent near me. IDK if it's even possible to really save money owning an aircraft but that wasn't my motivation. I kind of suspect that people who buy a plane for the sole reason of saving money, more often than not are disappointed by that decision.

[@flywiththeguys]

I'm where you're at. We just purchased a plane to rebuild and I cant wait to stop messing around with the club schedule.

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

@@flywiththeguys I bought mine while still working on training for my PPL, just after I started solo-ing. Turned out to be great timing since shortly after I bought it, the school had one of their 172s go out of service indefinitely. It was so great not having to be part of the subsequent mad scramble to find availability, I was able to just go fly whenever time and weather permitted. Ended up with nearly 90 hours by the time I did my check ride just because I was able to go flying so much (and subsequently had ZERO issues on the check ride) :)

[@flywiththeguys]

@@AlyssaM_InfoSec Amazing! Tell me if you agree with this video, well the part I set it to for you. The video is on saving money getting your PPL - kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIWZk3-Mq9eBeZY

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

@@flywiththeguys oh wow, that's an interesting thought and yeah you could do that. Although I think you'd have to look at the cost of insurance and hangar/tie-down space as part of the instructional costs. But then again, with the way aircraft prices are still going, you might be able to sell the plane for more than you bought it for and make up that extra.

[@timjohnson1578]

A&P and private pilot here, so wanting to build an RV-10 or maybe even a 12 :) Still thinking I may have a edge on achieving the dream of ownership I've had since i was 5 .

[@flywiththeguys]

I've started rebuilding a plane. It's fun, daunting, and rewarding.

[@landen99]

I rent a plane to fly to a location for a one week vacation. The plane sits on the tarmac of the destination field. Are there no cost considerations with the one week that it sits there? You might have missed this crucial factor in renting.

[@flywiththeguys]

We kind of cover that when we talk about flight clubs, but we could have done a better call out directly addressing it. You see, you have an on paper hourly rental cost, but what you need to look at is your true hourly rental cost. You get this buy adding up all your rental costs for the year and divide it by the number of hours flown. Going back to your scenario, I'm not aware of any rental operation or club that doesn't charge a minimum daily fee for taking a plane on an extended vacation because they are technically loosing money from other potential renters. These charges would actually increase your true hourly rental cost and may move things in favor of buying a plane. Good catch though!

[@oscarcharlybravo]

Great video. BUT the freedom aspect, isn't considered. For example, while renting you most likely can't wake up and decide to go flying (if the weather is suitable). Second, in my case for a week trip, i still have to pay 2 to 3 hours each day even if not flying.

[@flywiththeguys]

Totally true! I think we danced around it a little in the lifestyle section. The freedom to fly when and where you want.

[@blackjack6259]

Great video with lots of good information! Thanx!

[@flywiththeguys]

No problem! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@mctransportation9831]

In the last 10 years planes have doubled while rental is about the same. I used to own a cherokee 140 I bought for 27,500. Sold it for about 25k. It's probably worth double that now and insurance has skyrocketed. It could make sense to own if you are able to tax deduct it and it's able to generate some revenue. Most likely, you're better off investing in something else that will generate more revenue than a plane and use some of your profits to rent.

[@flywiththeguys]

Solid advice. Granted, I have been seeing rentals going up substantially too. My club just increased the hourly rate.

[@mctransportation9831]

@@flywiththeguys I'm about to rent a 172 for $130 that I've never rented before. I hope their website is up to date and I'm not told it's more than that.

[@Superdummy803]

Partnerships are really a best compromise between solo owning and clubs/renting. The biggest problem is finding a partner you can live with because it literally is almost like getting married.

[@flywiththeguys]

They can be! As long as the partnership is a good one. I've heard horror stories from people over the year. One guy up and took the plane to get new avionics and expected everyone to chip in thousands. I'm down for a good partnership though. I've been trying to find one that isn't trying to get a new partner because something broke on the plane.....

[@PtBm2975]

I’ve watched video after video making essentially the same arguments, but nobody talks about the savings of owning your plane if you take weekend-long excursions. Try a couple of those in a rental plane…

[@flywiththeguys]

I know what you mean. Don't remember if I even got into that discussion in this video, but it's a valid point. Our club charges 2 hours per day minimum if you take it overnight somewhere, and that doesn't even begin to cover lost revenue on some of the planes.

[@chdrev21]

One thing that isn’t taken into account with renting is vacations. How would renting and flying to another state for a week come into play?

[@flywiththeguys]

Thats dependent on how the rental or club charges. Our club charges a per day minimum the plane is gone. Regardless of if you fly it or not. If you exceed the fee in flight time, it's waved. This is because of potential lost revenue. This is typically done to keep people from week long rentals that rack up 4 flight hours. Thats why you would take the total you spent renting, or the total you spend on club dues, fees, and rates as the comparison.

[@davisandotube]

This is an old debate that just tries to find excuses. Same thing is with everything else. People generally prefer to own a house than rent it. Yes it will “give you capital gain” over the years, which most people fail to mention it mostly is the same as inflation. We always forget all the costs associated with owning the home same as maintenance, insurance, taxes, etc. also, nobody is trying to find an excuse not to own a car, where sometimes is just better to Uber, and we all know owning a car is flat right money to spend and lose. why? Because we love owning things we use, yet still look for excuses not to own a plane. There is no feeling like owning the plane you fly. It gives you the ultimate freedom to know exactly the specs, performance, planning of your aircraft and trip as no renter, and... at the end, just like anything else you buy, iPhones, computers, TVs, houses, cars, cloths, etc, it will cost money. So.. it’s a choice of living. I recently bought a pa28. Around $40’s. I still have to some upgrades for what I want, but it already is giving me the most amazing feeling ever. The plane is sitting there at the airport waiting for me to fly it at anytime, timeframe, etc. if I decide to fly at 2am I can, and don’t have to ask no one. Yes. I live in Florida so... that’s on favor to me, but still... just think of anything, I mean anything else you wanna buy, it’s gonna cost you money but is gonna give you “ownership”, which on it self it’s way better than just rent.

[@flywiththeguys]

Good points. I was going to go through the car analogy. The average car payment is $530 per month. The average insurance payment is $125 per month. That’s $7860 just to own it, let alone drive it. But, someone would argue that a car is a necessity. But you’re right, there’s Uber and Lift. It’s all a lifestyle choice in my opinion. In the end I didn’t include this to make sure it was more of a high level overview and stay out of the weeds on each side. I like your comment though. Very thoughtful.

[@MaksimShinkarenko]

Thank you for video. Where can I look for actual prices for used planes in USA?

[@flywiththeguys]

Controller and trade-a-plane are a good place to start

[@jasondempsey8366]

Traderonline has an Aero Trader section and I have seen planes listed on Facebook Marketplace.

[@rjthomasindyusa]

Fly experimental... newer technology and way more affordable.

[@flywiththeguys]

No joke! I want to make a video on this. And I'm considering buying an experimental right now.

[@rjthomasindyusa]

@@flywiththeguys I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

[@MrZrryan2]

@@flywiththeguys You should make that video.... pros and cons. the advantages of experimental are huge, but so are the cons. I've done it both ways.

[@asanyal296]

Brilliant analysis

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks!

[@cherfieldm]

Thanks for sharing, good guidance.

[@flywiththeguys]

Thanks, and thanks for watching.

[@The_real_Dr_mysterious]

Always keep extra parts if you can

[@flywiththeguys]

Depends on the part. Like some of mine I'm never using again... selling those.

[@simcptmike]

Really interesting Video. Thanks for sharing

[@flywiththeguys]

No problem. Thanks for watching!

[@SVSecondChance]

You left one con out on renting. I have had to emergencies both in rental aircraft 1 a major electrical fire (in flight) 2 blew a engine deadstick landing in north FL. don't have this problem when you know who does your maintenance and repairs.

[@flywiththeguys]

Absolutely. Some rental operations cut corners to save money. There’s one in my area that refuses to update their Garmin GPS because they don’t want to pay for the subscription.

[@SVSecondChance]

One way to own an airplane and actually make money While doing it Is to Least the airplane to A flight school You see the airplane I rented that I lost the Engine in Was a Cessna 152 that I bought For $1500 put an engine in it And leased it to a flight school

[@davidbucklew804]

Love owning a plane but it is a money pit. Annuals and unexpected AD's can get you. Hanger fees are terrible in most cases. Maintenance and repairs is a killer for sure. Flying costs of gas and insurance can eat you alive also. When you get the itch to fly, go rent one. If you like looking at your plane, playing with it, flying when you want buy the plane but be prepared for the money pit.

[@flywiththeguys]

AGREED!

[@sarathw5740]

Excellent! you sound like an accountant. -)

[@flywiththeguys]

LOL. I'm not. I've just been knee deep in this stuff for the last few years. It's a big question a lot of people ask and don't really understand the aspects of it. Granted, I don't fly enough to warrant buying a plane, but I still want my own.

[@lsimrell]

Why can’t I find anything online about rental cost of a plane even this video dodges the question

[@flywiththeguys]

Dodging isn’t the right word. Its different everywhere you go so couldn’t put a number to it. More expensive to fly in CA vs the middle of no where Kansas, not to mention the type of aircrafts available. In my area you can get a 172 for about $135 on average. 150/152 for about $100. Most places don’t like posting prices, they want people to call. Flight schools like working with program pricing.

[@robsexton3258]

One important point you left out is equity. For buying, at the end of that 20 years you still have a plane that is still worth a good bit. Probably could sell it and recoup a lot of those cost. If you rent you don’t have this.

[@flywiththeguys]

True! I swear I talked about that, but it could have been in another video when we talked about getting your certificate for less.

[@peterhopkins1785]

Where did you find 4% for 20 years?!

[@flywiththeguys]

LOL. It was just an example. And it all comes down to how much you borrow and for how long.

[@unlisted773]

Just found 3.25% on a Home Equity Line of Credit for 20 years. My credit is excellent, so that helped. Bad news is it is variable rate...kinda scary these days.

[@TheMarcball]

That was good, thanks.

[@flywiththeguys]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@dalematheson8571]

Thank you

[@flywiththeguys]

You're welcome

[@logicreversed18t]

I'm sure the contents of your videos will very*, but I cant wait to see wehre* you'll take us next. In my experience, there are renters and there are buyers, and those two camps rarely take the time to do all the math. It tends to be a philosophical decision. I imagine this is doubly true with an airplane, seeing as the cost of failure could potentially be your life. Regardless of the economics, do you trust the rental company, or do you trust yourself? Personally, I appreciate videos like these (especially with a spreadsheet!), that help give a better understanding of what the numbers tell us. *Sorry. I couldn't help myself!

[@flywiththeguys]

Thank you and I appreciate your comment. I maintain the plane I fly, but I’m unique in how I pay for my airplane habits.

[@AngelMartinez-cj1sd]

Damn it steve!

[@flywiththeguys]

😂 I know right! Oddly enough, a guy joined our club named Steve and he books the plane now when I want to fly.... Karma?

[@boogerwood]

I doubt this will be answered (old video), but my son and I are starting the PPL process at the same time. Makes the "purchase" options seem much more attractive, yes?

[@flywiththeguys]

Considering the going rates for rentals these days... you'd be paying about 18K in just the plane and fuel alone. If it was me going that route, I would seriously consider it. Outside that calculator I made, check out this video. It'll help understand the numbers better. Going rates for a 172 right now is around 140-150 hr/wet. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIWZk3-Mq9eBeZY

[@himanshusehrawat39]

The thumbnail pic is from falcon field Airport KFFZ

[@flywiththeguys]

Good effort, it was up at deer valley from the observation deck. I need to get over to falcon soon though.

[@maxbouchard2241]

Just saying he totally stoll 74 gears intro but great video

[@flywiththeguys]

I’ve heard this before! 😂 I didn’t even know about him when I started using that opening. Going on like 4 years now. Maybe he stole it from me? 🤔

[@maxbouchard2241]

@@flywiththeguys lol

[@timmymisiura7199]

Would you suggest a experimental aircraft? I’m a helicopter Mchanic now, and will get my A+P within the next 2 years. I’ve heard there a lot less expensive with repairs.

[@flywiththeguys]

It has its appeal. Honestly, I want one for my recreational flying, but for everything else I do it may not be right. So torn...

[@gazirovkinn]

thank you for the vid

[@flywiththeguys]

No problem!

[@AmericanPiddler]

What's the cost to rent the plane for the week? Or overnight trips?

[@flywiththeguys]

Depends on the club or rental operation. Realize that hours the plane isn't flying but booked is potential revenue lost. My club charges a 2 hour per day minimum regardless of flight if you take it overnight. Some charge more of what they lost letting you take it out that long. I've heard some clubs charge over 1K a day to make it prohibitive.

[@AmericanPiddler]

@@flywiththeguys the overnight rate I believe will be the deciding factor on ownership vs. Rental in my situation as far as commuting 600 miles a couple time a month

[@AmericanPiddler]

@@flywiththeguys btw thanks for the reply! I know its difficult to always reply on my own channel but I try!

[@flywiththeguys]

@@AmericanPiddler No problem. I really do try to help where I can.

[@Review-This]

If I rent and fly out of state for a couple of days would I normally pay for the hours I have it or hours of the flight only?

[@flywiththeguys]

Most rental operations look at that as a loss so they have rules against it or have daily minimum rates when you take the plane overnight, regardless of flight. Our club charges 2 hour minimum each day, which is generous in reality. The idea is they could be making more on rentals throughout the day, but now you're occupying it so they cant.

[@Hulley29]

Damnit my name is Steve! LOL!

[@flywiththeguys]

I'm sure you're not the Steve I'm referring to.....

[@Hulley29]

@@flywiththeguys I thought it was funny as hell! Love the channel!

[@PrestigeWorldWide777]

Me too

[@ddthompson42]

I sure wish you could still get a good 172 for $50-60k in 2021... Great info, though!

[@flywiththeguys]

ME TOO!

[@rickycerveny]

I’ve tried entering in my own information on the spreadsheet and it isn’t working. I guess I need to do it on a laptop. I have a Mac hope it works.

[@flywiththeguys]

I've seen people struggle on phones. Works great on a real version of excel.

[@skylinevspec000]

meanwhile from the air.. hahahaha glad I booked this plane.

[@chelofonte]

This video finally convinced me that renting is better than buying

[@flywiththeguys]

After renting for so long and taking care of others planes, I really want to own. Plus, I'm fairly sure I would break even.

[@lemondeepfried]

Not sure of the legal complexity on this, but how about buying a plane and renting it out when you're not using it? Sure that reintroduces some scheduling issues again, but you might only make it available for rent for periods when you know for certain you won't be flying.

[@Tyler-gd3cq]

Thats fine...

[@travisw9071]

Keep the blue side up!

[@flywiththeguys]

I want to do aerobatics.....

[@minnesnowtan9970]

Dpn't confuse these vids for training? What if I log the time?

[@flywiththeguys]

LOL.

[@majorhandle2798]

Do you know if the spreadsheet could calculate the save in money if you are an A&P Holder? I know quite a few owners who went to school for their A&P just so they could save on maintenance costs

[@flywiththeguys]

Yes and no. You can get your total cost per hour or rental cost per hour, then remove everything on the data tab that involves maintenance and compare the numbers. That's about as good as it's going to get with this spreadsheet.

[@majorhandle2798]

Much appreciated. Thanks for replying.

[@razorbackblood06]

I'm a former boat owner, I know better than to buy a plane. :D

[@flywiththeguys]

They work better if you use them more. 😀If it sits, you just throw money at it.

[@rogue8853]

Before I watch this, I’m worried about hanger fees, insurance costs and engine overhauls

[@flywiththeguys]

Depends on how many hours you have, what you buy, and where you keep the plane. It’s not too terrible if the numbers work.

[@rogue8853]

@@flywiththeguys wow you’re fast. I’ll have to sub. I’m a low time CFI looking for a trainer to teach in. I keep coming up with 25-30k yearly op estimates when I do it so I’ll have to check out your spreadsheet. Thanks for the vid and post!

[@flywiththeguys]

The spreadsheet should help figure some of that stuff out. It’s not all inclusive, but it’ll get you close. I know they cost a lot right now, but a 172 is an iconic plane that people want to fly. 😉 It’s our clubs most rented aircraft as well.

[@rogue8853]

@@flywiththeguys yeah the markets high right now but totally worth it. Now here's a question... buy or rent a hangar?

[@joshhenry1545]

How do you balance renting vs buying when the plane you’re renting has a low useful load and the purchased plane will be more suiting? Hard to compare when youre not comparing to the type of travel you’d do otherwise

[@hvacmike1175]

Josh Henry you still type in the numbers and it will show you the cost.!it will be higher than the rental and only you can decide if it’s worth it. For me I like to rent it’s a no brainer at 25 / 35 hours a year. If someone gave me a plane it would still cost more than renting one. Airports should be required to rent hanger space for aviation related operations only. Most GA airports have long waiting list you can die waiting to get one.

[@flywiththeguys]

It really comes down to the mission. You should buy the plane you need 95% of the time and rent the plane you want 5% of the time. For me, I dont need 1000+ LBS of useful load for most of my flights, let alone the extra seats. I usually only fly with myself and one passenger.

[@joshhenry1545]

@@flywiththeguys yep, that's my issue and perhaps my answer as well.... Since we can only rent a 172 and the limitations of the load there, I'm not sure what kind of mission my family would be able to do if we had something with a larger useful load. I know we like the idea of having the freedom of our own, but without a real good way to "test drive" that, that's were my question comes in.

[@flywiththeguys]

@@joshhenry1545 I have 6 members in my family and have contemplated a 210 or Saratoga. After calculating the fuel burn and air speed, it didn't make sense for even 10% of my flying. We just never all go together. As far as test driving, I ask a lot of questions and have been in a lot of different aircraft because of it. You may not be able to rent it, but you can usually get someone who owns one to show you it and possibly even take you for a ride if you ask.

[@garamSamosa]

Can someone explain to me how renting a plane works? Say if I am planning to take a weekend vacation, and want to fly there. Would I be charged for whole 48+ hours I rent the plane? Or just the hours the plane is actually operated. (I am not accustomed to flying at all, but I plan to take my discovery flight this month)

[@flywiththeguys]

Renting is usually a per flight hour thing. Every rental operation is different, but If you take a plane for the weekend you usually have to flight hours plus pay a per day charge, even if you don't fly, to cover potential lost revenues. I've heard this being anywhere from 200-300 per day.

[@garamSamosa]

@@flywiththeguys thanks for the prompt response. I really love your videos, they are quite informative and is the push I needed to finally put my feet into aviation. Thanks a ton!

[@embodiedbillionaire]

I wanna fly but cost is such a dream crusher

[@flywiththeguys]

It can be, but where theres a will theres a way. I got mine for less than 5K, and it took me 3 years. Heres some perspective on it, and no I didn't buy a plane. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIWZk3-Mq9eBeZY

[@ThePurplePupUwU]

Hmm, plane or corvette, plane, or corvette

[@flywiththeguys]

Airplane. For me anyways. =)

[@onementality9781]

How much is renting a plane because did you know I didn’t know the answer

[@flywiththeguys]

Depends on the area your in. A 172 typically rents for $115 to $135 an hour wet.

[@ABC-rh7zc]

Unfortunately you omitted the standby rate which can be a lot more than the hourly rental itself, e.g. you fly an hour away, stay the night and return the next day - you could be up for $1,000 for standby plus $300 for the 2 hours of flight. This is the BIG problem with rental.

[@flywiththeguys]

This was really meant to be a high level calculation to help people figure things out. Because every club or rental operation works differently, I cant include costs like that and keep things simple. Just general per hour comparison. Which technically would still work if you added up all your club dues, fees, standby rates, etc and divided it by the number of hours you flew with the club to get a TRUE per hour rate over a year to fly with them.

[@ABC-rh7zc]

@@flywiththeguys Unfortunately, the standby fees are so much more than the flight fees themselves that it gives a very misleading result to omit them. For me, it would be probably cheaper to own than rent for just 4 x 2 hr flights trips a year :( (My local rental place is $$$)

[@flywiththeguys]

@@ABC-rh7zc Sounds like they are trying to make longer trips prohibitive. I get where they're coming from though. I ran a club for quite a while and when people take popular aircraft out for the weekend it limits the amount of money that could have been made. So you charge your potential losses. But again, taking the total cost of being in the club and dividing it by the hours you flew with them still works to give you an overall hourly cost to compare by. Our club has a dedicated plane for overnight trips, keeping the popular ones available for local flights. They charge a 2 hour minimum per day if you take it on a trip.

[@ABC-rh7zc]

@@flywiththeguys two hours per day minimum is very reasonable! I hope more places will adopt this :)

[@PhD2727]

I'm not the guy who know all of those things, but, i think if you want plane like learjet 75, it's better to rent one. If im not right, correct me in the replyes.

[@flywiththeguys]

My buddy flys something similar. He said it’s 7k an hour to operate something that size. Not sure what all that entails, but wow.

[@baysusstudios59]

I’m a 14 year old in flight school who wants a job in the aviation industry because I love aircraft. Anyone have any job suggestions so I can one day be able to afford to buy a plane?

[@flywiththeguys]

My 14 year old said Mowing Lawns. But really it's about balancing your finances and what you spend your money on. A lot of people chase new cars, better electronics, or acquire huge amounts of debt so they can live a lifestyle outside their means. Make good financial decisions, work hard, and you'll get there.