Siemens VOELCB examination and Tinned Copper or Aluminium wiring?

[@Cial]

John just wanted to say your videos have been helping me for years. Thank you for all the time you spend on these.

[@Mark1024MAK]

Ditto 👍😀

[@davidw5647]

Back in the late 70's and eighties my dad used to strip the scrap metal from electrical stuff. His friend was an electrician and use to bring him van loads every week. He used to spend hours every day separating steel, ally, copper and brass from the stuff which he would then sell (prices were good then) to keep me clothed and fed having lost his wife, my mum in 1975. God there would have been an Aladdin's cave of stuff for you to examine. Great channel and I've learnt so much stuff very grateful. David

[@alanjones3873]

Great to see this old kit and understand it. When I started in the 60s this quality engineering was standard. Those contacts are great. Thanks

[@billverdon2085]

I really enjoy your videos which are so informative and interesting. Back in the 1950's when I was a child I can remember one house we lived at in Bournemouth was supplied with 200vdc and I remember one of these Siemens devices in the damp cellar along with many other metal electrical devices! My grandfather who had a large house in Hastings fitted his own electrical supply back in about 1912 using several large lead acid batteries powering a rotary transformer to provide lighting and later bought a dc electrical supply from the trolley bus system that passed by the house and apparently every time a bus passed by the lights dimmed in the house!

[@Petertronic]

Excellent demonstration. Also interesting to learn why wiring used to be tinned copper.

[@juz4kix]

Someone from the US here. We’re they soldering splices when these were installed? If so it may make the solder flow better. I’m only 50 so these things were long out of service when I started in the field.

[@Ragnar8504]

@@juz4kix Not usually. Europe preferred all sorts of screw-based connections or downright twisting and taping. The latter is now considered bodgery but will last for a long time if done properly. The tin layer was purely for protection during the vulcanisation of the rubber, which involves sulphur. Rubber flex had tinned conductors until fairly recently, maybe 10 or 15 years ago.

[@mb63]

Thoroughly enjoyable video. Thank you for your time and effort in publishing these videos.

[@surjsingh1129]

thank you j.w all your info is very good i have both of your books on heating controls and would be lost without them keep up the good work and i hope some of the humble sparks would read them will be a help all round.

[@grantrennie]

Cheers for another great video, I always like to look at old electrical equipment from over the years, whether it's being skipped (in the dumpster) or in an old building being demolished or been in storage somewhere long forgotten..

[@James_Bowie]

In my neck of the woods, ELCBs were notorious for false tripping due to earth currents from neighboring properties.

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

Our house was built in the mid-60s and has aluminum wiring. They make various products now to help bridge the aluminum to copper. We can't just rip it out of the wall, anyway. It would cost too much. They are all 20 amp lines. The wiring is and equivalent 12 gauge wire which is thicker than 12 gauge copper.

[@LakeNipissing]

The aluminum branch circuits in homes I've seen here (like mine) have 12/2 circuits, but they are fused (or breakers) at 15 Amps.

[@andysims4906]

I have a 3 phase version of this Siemens Trip that I removed about 12 years ago. It’s almost twice as big but looks almost the same . One common problem with these type of trips is if the earth wire coming from the spike got broken or damaged the trip coil wouldn’t work . Often the earth wire would only be 2.5mm and not in protective conduit so easy to get broken. I used to here story’s of in the old days especially in the summer electricians used to Chuck buckets of water over the spike to get the trips to work if the earth resistance was to high . .

[@LakeNipissing]

We have solid aluminum branch circuit wiring in our house. Almost all houses built in Canada between 1967 and 1975 are with aluminum wire.

[@LakeNipissing]

I imagine as your time permits, people will get to see some of this. ;)

[@mernokimuvek]

Eastern Bloc countires before 1990 almost always used aluminum wiring.And most often there were no wire nuts or any other connectors.Wires were just twisted with pliers and wrapped with electrical tape.Lasted decades without any problem if it was done properly. And of course in some countires there were grounded sockets only in the bathroom and kitchen and the neutral wire also had a fuse in single phase circuits.

[@tinytonymaloney7832]

Quite enjoyed that blast from the past 😁

[@andysims4906]

Quite a few houses round here were are are still wired in copper clad aluminium cable. I believe it was installed round about 1973 when we had a copper shortage. In most cases it’s good condition still but you have to be careful stripping the wire back as if you score the cable it’s them very brittle. Also at the same time copper pipes were being put in with steel mixed in .almost all those pipes have rusted out including my home and had to be replaced with new copper.

[@Ragnar8504]

I've seen plumbers install copper upstream of steel - the results are certainly impressive after a few years!

[@craigstaggs8597]

My Missus is a deep piece and needs to go away immediately too !! ..... JW ....A nice way to start the day !

[@Marcel_Germann]

Over the thumb the conductors must be one size larger for aluminium than they have to be for copper. For example 2.5mm² aluminium instead of 1.5mm² copper, or 4mm² aluminium instead of 2.5mm² copper. In West Germany aluminium wiring was never a thing, in 1973 it was decided that the minimum conductor size for aluminium for fixed installation must be 16mm² due to mechanical reasons. For the same reason the VDE introduced that 1.5mm² copper is the smallest conductor size for copper conductors for a fixed installation. In East Germany they used aluminium wiring until 1990, 2.5mm² aluminium. Dedicated sockets fused with 16A, general purpose socket circuits were fused with 10A. 4mm² for the kitchen cooker, that one was a special one, using a three-core cable with two phases fused with 16A each one. The third wire was the PEN. If there's any aluminium wiring left, that should go now. Here it is recommended to replace even the newest aluminium wiring from 1990. Aluminium wiring becomes more brittle over time, it requires special connectors and special lubricant on the terminations to prevent the surface corrosion on the aluminium. So it's not only about the current rating, most terminals of accessories aren't rated for aluminium conductors, only for copper.

[@mathman0101]

Marcel nice comment. However I suspect many electrical standards tend to replace aluminum wiring not because aluminum is inherently less safe than copper for wiring rather it’s the challenges and importance of using appropriate splicing and termination equipment with them. We still have them here in the USA but much greater emphasis on ensuring terminations and splices are done properly in the NEC 2020 standards.

[@Marcel_Germann]

@@mathman0101 That's one reason, the other one is that it becomes brittle over time when it ages. It tends to break within the insulation when you bend it. And that will cause serial arcing, which requires an AFDD (arc fault detection device, in the US known as AFCI). Copper won't age that way, only the insulation does. And to my experience PVC insulation can last at least 50 to 60 years without any issues when the cable isn't overloaded (conductor temperature above 70°C). The problem is, here most connectors aren't rated for aluminium anymore. In the US you also got special connectors for aluminium wiring which are filled with the lubricant I've mentioned. AFAIK they have a violet colour. Wago 2273, 222, 224 are rated for aluminium if used with the lubricant (sold separately). The Wago 221 are NOT rated for aluminium! The old Wago 273 series was also rated for aluminium in combination with the lubricant. But this series is no longer available.

[@mathman0101]

@@Marcel_Germann so copper has higher strength, conductivity and ductility than aluminum and lower coefficient of thermal expansion. Notwithstanding all the disadvantages you highlight. The key advantage here in the USA even in a residential setting is their use over longer spans/runs with larger homes than say Europe with their lower weight and greater malleability proving their worth especially for larger feeder/copper wires for services.

[@Marcel_Germann]

@@mathman0101 The feeder cables here are usually 4x35mm² copper. That would be comparable to AWG 2. Three phases and a PEN-conductor, supplying 3x230/400V. Each phase is fused with 63A. The lower weight is actually not a thing in domestic installations, the only advantage there is the price.

[@Ragnar8504]

Aluminium was used pretty much everywhere during WWII though, at least in all parts of the German Reich. Thankfully there wasn't a whole lot of construction going on and most of the wiring that old has been replaced by now. My parents do still have one light wired with war-time Al cable in an old outbuilding though. When they bought the house, the wiring was a mixture of 1970s hack jobs and the original late-40s wiring, most of which was tinned copper, except for two very short pieces of cable. All the wiring was singles in conduit ("Bergmannrohr"), except for the 30 cm bits from junction boxes outside to the lights above the stable doors, which were a kind of tin-sheathed cable rated for wet locations ("Rohrdraht", "Kuhlokabel"). I suspect that type of cable was rarely used so they still had some old stock left when this little hamlet received electricity in 1949. I replaced one of the lights because it was broken and while I was at it also replaced the tin cable with a piece of NYM but the other light is still original and temporarily connected to the new wiring using Wago connectors. I have to admit I skipped filling the connector with vaseline because all this connection supplies is one 25 W incandescent bulb. As soon as we get around to renovating the outbuildings, all of this will be gone. I might save the original light switches though.

[@IronFinger66]

Can you please do a video on ferroresonance please? Absolutely love your videos and would love this topic broken down in your style!

[@mernokimuvek]

Diodegonewild has videos about it.

[@andrewcadby]

14:20 Hi John. Have just emailed you a photo of table 26M from the 14th ed am3 1976, which gives ratings for smaller sized copperclad aluminium cables. Hope it's of some use.

[@doktoruzo]

Interesting, thanks. It is certainly well engineered and made of robust materials.

[@claudyfocan731]

Siemens, from a day and age when ze Germans made the finest tools and equipment on the globe.

[@claudyfocan731]

Back when companies weren’t ran by beancounters whose only concern was maximum profit.

[@doktoruzo]

@@claudyfocan731 . Yes, I always preferred to see 'Made In Germany' on things. Also, 'Made In Japan' meant quality too. Alas, you don't see it as much these days.

[@doktoruzo]

@@claudyfocan731 ..yes, fully agree.

[@owensmith7530]

My house was built in 1987, and it and the entire estate had consumer units with an ELCB as the main switch. This is a much later date than you state. Mine is still in use, all the cables are so tight with no slack and the consumer unit is in such a difficult location it would be a nightmare to replace. I'd end up with a junction box on every circuit to lengthen the cables by a foot or so. Instead of such madness I've decided to leave it all alone.

[@jwflame]

ELCB also describes current operated types, which are RCDs. Voltage operated ELCBs were discontinued in 1981, and were never incorporated into consumer units.

[@owensmith7530]

@@jwflame Ah, so you're saying I actually have an RCD despite what it says on the box. I've lived here since 1987 and never knew that. The earthing is PME. I have noticed sometimes when working on a circuit with its MCB turned off, if I touch neutral to earth by accident the "ELCB" trips. It doesn't do it every time though. It says 30mA trip current on it.

[@jwflame]

@@owensmith7530 Yes, 30mA indicates it's an RCD. VOELCBs don't have any current rating. Tripping when N-E are connected is normal, it's providing a path for current to flow to E from the other circuits still connected.

[@owensmith7530]

@@jwflame For the last 10 years my dad has been pestering me to get it swapped for an RCD to be safe and up to date. I can now tell him I don't need to, many thanks to you.

[@Minifig666]

Thanks, it's cool to see something like this operating. Can you close the contacts if the coil is still energised?

[@jwflame]

No, the large brown reset button won't latch onto the moving contacts with the coil energised or the green button pressed.

[@LumoTrino]

Nice video. Rather surprised to see a cross / pozi screw holding the device to the wood backing. Was that really original or was the device remounted recently?

[@jwflame]

Screws probably more recent from when it was removed from the installation, there are 4 holes which have been used for screws but only 2 screws in them currently. Wood backing is original to the device, there is a shadow of the outline of the casing on it where the exposed parts have faded over time.

[@Blade-420]

JW: back in the 70's here in the US, Aluminum wiring was used for a while, and then after a rash of electrical fires, it was outlawed. and to get around that, some unscrupulous electricians started using aluminum wire coated with copper to make it pass inspection. until they were found out, there were still electrical fires here and the guilty parties were charged accordingly . this dirty trick was used especially in Mobile Homes [ Caravans?] at the time

[@simonschertler3034]

Where is the problems using aluminium wires? Here in Austria aluminium cables are used >25mm2 for some applications for industrial or power supply cables

[@jwflame]

No problem for larger sizes, 16mm² and above are still used in the UK, with the specific connectors designed for aluminium. The smaller sizes for wiring inside premises were only in use for a very short time when there was a shortage of copper. They had to be larger than the copper equivalents making it more difficult to connect them to accessories, and as most accessories had brass terminals, using aluminium with those often resulted in extensive corrosion.

[@simonschertler3034]

@@jwflame okay that is exact the same here in Austria. Aluminium conductors where used in the 50th (2.5mm2 with rubber insulation). Now due to the high cooper price aluminium is used for main lines eg 5x35mm2 for a. Of course special conditions are installed. I have never seen a aluminium cable in the UK here 9n KZbin. Where do you use aluminium?

[@Ragnar8504]

@@simonschertler3034 I'd think 1939 to late 40s, the newest piece of Al wiring in Austria that I know of was installed in 1949 according to local lore, probably old stock from the war. 99% of the installation was 1 mm2 tinned copper singles (G-Draht) and only two very short pieces in outbuildings (Rohrdraht) were aluminium.

[@simonschertler3034]

@@Ragnar8504 i removed a lot of aluminium wire in my life 🙂 But you are right the most old rubber insulated wires are made with tinned copper wires. But both types has to visit the cable recycling plant for sure 😜 In the power grid (netzebene 7 - 400V) aluminium conductors are used since the 1960 with PVC insulation. Now a days aluminium conductors are used in building as well due to the high cooper price. No body likes to pay 95m E-YY-J 5x70 any more 🙃 So E-AYY-J 5x120 is installed 👍

[@mernokimuvek]

@@simonschertler3034 Does Austria also have 3 phase 63A services like Germany? Were ungrounded sockets still used in the 1960s?I also heard from a few electricians that they had a fuse in the neutral wire too.I hope that was only the case for single phase circuits.

[@Xclub40X]

Tinned copper wiring? That's lazy and tastes horrible.... I buy my copper wiring fresh and cook it on the day, also much healthier for you. 🥫

[@Ragnar8504]

On a side note: I never realised your studio setup was a greenscreen :-) Probably wouldn't have noticed hadn't I recently messed up a greenscreen online stream with a blue shirt that had some ghostly effects. Fortunately it wasn't anything important and I don't think anyone noticed it.

[@Xclub40X]

JW is a circuit breaker..... Whatever I was doing I now got disconnected from because I just got this notification.

[@echothehusky]

Smart looking unit! If main bonding is installed to the installation it will usually end up bypassing the coil meaning the unit will never trip. Disappointed you didn't connect it to the mains and try the test button!!

[@mrxmry3264]

apart from the fact that it doesn't provide any protection, is it actually dangerous? IOW, would the installation be safer without this device, if everything else is the same?

[@jwflame]

If it still works, and it's the only device other than fuses / circuit breakers then it's safer with it - without there would be nothing to disconnect L-E faults. However many of these don't work due to age, people altering the wiring to the earth and earth electrodes without realising the consequences, or other changes within the installation such as additional paths to earth. All of them should have been replaced with RCDs decades ago.

[@owensmith7530]

@@jwflame Decades ago (1987) was when my house was built, with an ELCB consumer unit. They seem to have lasted longer than you think.

[@Xclub40X]

Smile and put your finger up if you also like TTs 👆😁

[@TheErador]

Your mum likes TTs

[@Xclub40X]

@@TheErador you're a mature one aren't you.

[@hasana6212]

Walter white is that you!?

[@drcrusherdata]

just dont make anything as good nowadays.!

[@composure73]

Siemens !German technology!!

[@barrieshepherd7694]

Probably from the Siemens Brothers Woolwich Works. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Brothers

[@calmeilles]

@@barrieshepherd7694 Was just thinking that. Up until 1968 Woolwich was almost certainly the site of manufacture for anything on this domestic scale.