Similar Cam Cards Vastly Different Power?

[@AztecRipper]

Going to piss off a cam giant to expose the truth!!! Why I support you Eric.

[@parkercustoms870]

For sure, glad to see someone exposing the BS....

[@tylermcintyre5177]

I sure learn a lot from your channel Eric. Thanks again.

[@peskypeet]

Cam Dr every one? Now that's sweet!!

[@hotroddude6551]

Honestly, This doesn't surprise me about Comp Cams. We had seen many discrepancies back in the 80's with them. I stopped using them back then. Bobby is a good friend of mine and any cam I will get goes directly through Bobby and Cam Motion, Used Lunati for years way back when...until Holley bought them. Dropped them immediately. But it sucks that his cam was not to his specs. I think he should reorder the cam from Cam Motion and retest. Bobby will make sure the cam is 100%

[@samstewart4807]

lol this reminds me of a story I heard FIFTY YRS AGO. A shop owner ordered a cam from comp. He then called 9 friends. He had each friend order the SAME cam part# lift etc from comp. He got all 10 cams together. He then manually degreed EACH CAM. lol they were ALL DIFFERENT. Sadly that man has passed. I am sure he would thrilled to have seen your video!

[@ThomasELeClair]

............................................50 years ago,,,,,,,,nine people gambled,,,,,,,BULLSHIT...................

[@samstewart4807]

@@ThomasELeClair no, he did not gamble. He ordered the SAME CAM through 9 other shops. Then he degreed all 10 camshafts.

[@malcolmshaw2609]

The cam doctor info is a game changer 😮

[@MarineGrunt]

This whole cam challenge has just been too good ! You did a great job and gave every competitor a fair shot . Congrats again .

[@GTRliffe]

Certain lobe profiles regardless of lift can make more power when they aid improving valve-train harmonics resonance. I bet those invisible forces affect power more than we all think. formula one engineers have access to this data and it’s quite an advantage when you design the most “stable cam”

[@advguy629]

You will be so remembered for what you have done. This will change everything on how Camshafts will be Ground. Looking forward to the Future of Horsepower advancement. Cheers Guy from OZ

[@69L88]

I forgot to mention to check the runout on any cam, before it is condemned. Max runout should be no more than .002, measured on all 3 center journals. Stress in a new part or rough shipping can cause this. The middle lobes will look bigger than they are, if the cam rolls like a jumprope!!!!

[@alexgillies4183]

That was very interesting Eric (and a bit alarming); I guess I'd better check my new Comp cam with a degree wheel and make sure everything specs out!

[@seancollins9745]

I've been looking at "lobe intensity" in my grinds for years, the application matters a lot. The lobes that work in a drag racing engine might self destruct in a boat or street car. The combination matters. Iirc comp used to hold +-2 degresmes and 0.0010 lift for grinds, surprising to hear with modern CNC grinders that these errors are this big.

[@edsmachine93]

Thank you Eric. I appreciate the comparison and hidden important information. I always like getting the Cam Dr. With Erson Cams. You know what you're getting. Have a good week. 👍👍

[@urwaycomputers9896]

I love this video. Cant stop rewatching it. Maybe the Cam Dr. should be done before people send them in or before running them?

[@brucesherrill4116]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@raykaufman7156]

You had your thumb on the stylus! Sorry, had to talk some shit...😂 This is some of the BEST cam tech I've ever seen on KZbin. 👏😎

[@tking7513]

LOL.. is Eric old enough for this reference? They told Dad he had his thumb on the scale, he was a butcher.

[@WesAdams-HillsideAuto]

I always have known cam lobe design is what makes a massive difference for sure. Lot to know for sure. Thank you Eric!!! Lots of work and appreciated

[@Justls1v8parts]

This is valuable information Thank-you Eric.

[@scottk5209]

Love all the detailed tech analysis of this great channel. Thank you for creating this camshaft challenge! A LOT more work I know, but absolutely graphs instead of steel scratch awl pointers!

[@mikefed43]

So, NK performance said they win because of the valve timing events, particularly on the exhaust side. Daniel Powell said the same thing. He also mentioned the header size and that the later exhaust valve closing event helped NK’s cam win. Any comments?

[@b_hall]

1-3/4" headers are small for a 650+ hp LS engine. Most people would have 1-7/8" or 2" .

[@doncarlson8391]

Lift under curve, intensity. We used to have to "cam doctor" (measure each cylinder's intake and exhaust lobe) in the block. Super time intensive but you often learned cams are never the same from cylinder to cylinder. Looks like nothing has changed with some manufacturers.

[@joshuagarvey9362]

Kind of scary information in a way.Stab in my heart.This explains so much.I have learned so much from this.Scratching my head.All these years I swapped out so many cams with very similar duration and lift,So I thought and the power was so different.I just did another cam swap on this 408 sbc and I felt top end power loss with the so called same cam.WTF.Going to have to back up my thinking hear and start checking these cam cards.Going to All American Cam in California now to start checking these cams.Man this is so frustrating and wish I knew this 30 years ago.

[@EsmondPerformanceEngines]

I've dealt with Daniel Powell on quite a few cam Shafts excellent service

[@mikeconn4556]

Plz do more , would love to see the 408 sbf !!! Would definitely buy the book for that challenge!!

[@drmopar6122]

Awesome information, and that’s great on the cam doctor! Seeing how consistently the lobes are ground to one another will probably be an eye opener.

[@joecurmaci5880]

Best information channel for car guys

[@cs2-llc]

Got all the data. Thanks again for doing this and everything else you do!

[@DrGo-bw2jy]

Grateful for all of this information and your hard work. Much appreciated!

[@richdouche8253]

This sort of thing is why you'll have two similar built engines, and one just flat out rips! And the other is, mmm, not bad. The attention to detail and precision all add up to make a difference.

[@HeadFlowInc]

It’s very interesting to see the different approaches to creating power in a limited/specific rpm w/ 4.00” stroke build. The cam specs on DD5 I created looked big but peaked early @6500 rpm. .660/.660 @.050” 259/265 LSA 110 ICL 110 IVC 59.5 Max Hp 662 @6500 Max Tq 594 @5000 Avg Hp 578 Avg TQ 555 Vol eff% above 100% 4500-7500 rpm.

[@krusher74]

VE over 100%, great work.

[@CJ5EVOLUTION]

Not the 1st time I heard that Comp Cams are of bad craftsmanship. Yeah check all cams with the cam Dr. It will be cool to see how quality of craftsmanship is done by each cam manufacturer.

[@henrycoles5584]

IMO - the most interesting outcome is discovering that the cam card very often is not close to the CD measurements and lobe to lobe variation can be considerable. What are people supposed to do? Buy a CD and check each cam? How much difference between CD measurements and advertised specs. should be allowed before you are able to send the cam back and get your money back?

[@doomman700]

Great info, thanks

[@buckaroobonsi555]

Thank You Eric! I appreciate what you do!

[@NickHolman-s5e]

Bullet cams never got tested I've had awesome results and tech support from bullet those guys are old school and full of knowledge I wish I got them to spec a cam for the challenge. respect to all the competitors thanks for this great info!

[@427zoh6]

Bullet is my “go2” cam company great quality plus they have all the Ultradyne lobes in their inventory. Some of Harold’s lobes are truly timeless

[@urwaycomputers9896]

I am so impressed. Eric, this type of investigative work and analysis is what separates the accidental winners from those that are consecutive winners over multiple engines. This is better than than all the drooling lectures on cam science on utube!

[@stevenhobbs709]

Love your work Eric.

[@MVPisME383]

This is the kind of information I love learning about

[@alphaghost1633]

That is a real eye opener Wow and were paying premium prices for these proiducts

[@hankclingingsmith8707]

Ya and 1/2 of comp stuff is Chinese

[@brandontittle5762]

Awesome video Eric

[@robtdougherty]

AWESOME INFO! man this is cool. The last engine i helped build used a Lunati voodoo cam from a couple years ago, now they are owned by comp and when you call for a lunati grind, the tech will tell you they have a comp one that is same.....hmmm dont think ill go that route anymore. Bummer cuz the Lunati made good power.

[@tking7513]

It seems, to a layman, that we're losing some mfgr's lobe availability continuously ie. Crane, Lunati, Ultradyne, etc... > The companies that own these should've made them re-available before now. Too late now, it seems quality is in the very hard to find within the market, and a lot of great flat tappet design wizards go to the dust-bin as a casualty!

[@lwilliam22]

Ahh yeah. More suspense to see if any others cam doctor as advertised. Definitely makes a person want to request a cam doctor for quality control. I’m sure it’s why erson and Powell provide them to prove there doing what they say.

[@hotrodray6802]

I'm betting very few are close.

[@dondotterer24]

Thanks Eric. We now know how much a lobe design makes more difference than we ever would of thought! Great test!

[@CK-mf6du]

Cannot thank you enough for this information Eric! I truly hope this opens doors for ya. Same goes to everyone that participated!

[@bigbad253]

Looking forward to the extra cam doctor data.

[@richchappel9930]

Great job ! Thank you for all that you do.

[@stephenzadow3322]

You really are a wealth of knowledge I so much apreciate you sharing

[@DaveMcLain]

Before you do anything check the base circle runout. That can be a huge factor with a hydraulic cam. I started grinding cams about 2 years ago and it has been a very interesting experience. I've had a roller camshaft with a damaged lobe come in to repair that had a 10 degree index error!. The cam was not severely bent but from the #4 intake lobe on back it was 10 degrees retarded when compared to the front lobes. It had been run in an engine. If the user would have degreed it using #1 and then checked #2 it would have looked fine but it wasn't.

[@genechaas7369]

Have neer seen a cam doc readout, THNX! Harold Brookshire (RIP) said to look @ .200" durations to get a sense of intensity. And quick to admit its only ONE OF MANY factors. PS For some reason he also said that 160@.200" was the magic # to make BIG POWER. context: 427 chevy BBC.

[@craig8187]

Cool to hear the link gets updated 👍 looking forward to the rest of the Cam Dr's 👌

[@sqr2024]

❤man oh man now I am questioning my Cam in my BBC.

[@bryanst.martin7134]

Consider this, Little Brother,(Love your work) that subtle difference of the intake valve opening creates the crack in the dam. A little leak, a bigger leak, and a flush. Air is fluid. That subtle difference really matters. It starts a torrent that becomes a whirlpool. A snap opening causes chaos until the medium aligns itself. Time you shouldn't waste. Additionally, a turbulent mass continues to redistribute unburned fuel to the flame front. Burning fuel heats air, makes power.

[@shawnmcatee895]

There's even more to it than that. This is the reason why you need to basically "Cam Doctor" the cam yourself when degreeing the cam in the engine. Lifter bore positions in the block, timing sets, all kinds of stuff impacts the actual cam events at the valve. .006 and .020, ,.050, and .200 can vary wildly. from what somebody claims. At the end of the day, you just gotta run it, and keep good notes.

[@marknealen3140]

Great job with this! Love to know who is the most accurate cam grinder.

[@marianoleonel8914]

I think the important part is the area under the curve! Regards from Argentina

[@jakeblack4095]

I keep hearing bad about comp products. I think I'll stay away. Seems a lot of the brands that used to be top shelf are no where near that anymore. Thanks for speaking the truth Eric!

[@EricBrandt-r7p]

CC was always garbage in quality control….Cams Lifters Rocker Arms…..I’ve seen a lot of defective “out of the box” products from CC….never had issues with products from ISKY like I do with CC

[@jakeblack4095]

​@EricBrandt-r7p shows you what I know! I used to think comp was the shit guess they are shit lol. Had their parts in a 468 ran less than 100 miles dropped a valve

[@Flussig1]

​@@EricBrandt-r7pEd Iskenderian turned 103 in July!

[@427zoh6]

Camfather! 👍 Ed & Clay Smith and quite a few others were students of Ed Winfield a true mechanical genius!👍

[@buckaroobonsi555]

Not only that but lobe profile matters a lot too and the numbers do not always make that clear depending on what info you have to work with from the OEM. Lobe profile also can make a huge difference on how long and happy the cam and valve train lives especially on a daily driver!

[@billmohr991]

If you look up in the comp lobe catalog the lobe numbers on the cam card you will find comp EXI EHX hybrid hydraulic/solid lobes, very aggressive. If the cam was ground properly this one could have been the winner.

[@EricBrandt-r7p]

There’s a good reason why I haven’t used a CC cam for over 2 decades now. Bullet and Cam Motion after seeing the results of this test will get my business. ISKY also “Cam Doctors” with good results @ my friends shop. CC has always been hype & disappointment in my book since the mid 90’s when I had a set of “Ultra Pro” Magnum stainless steel rocker arms have roller tip wearing into rocker bodies @ 500 miles of useage….Ive found valve keepers that don’t seat correctly into retainers….defective push rods….They must have no QC department @ CC is all I can tell….Sure they would replace them with the same crap parts when called out but, if you blow up a motor….Thsts going to all be on you!

[@bigbad253]

​ @WeingartnerRacing I started to respond to someone in the comments who was dissing your presentation style, but it seems as though they must have removed their comment. So, what I was going to say was... Watching too much tiktok reprograms the brain into only being able to accept 30 seconds of info at a time containing a dopamine hit. Eric, if you want to appeal to the short video crowd, you may need to include an explosion, plot twist, major reveal, death of a character (engine?) or semi-pornographic photo (stripped engine) every thirty seconds to keep them watching. I prefer your current method of presentation, so thank you for what you do.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I agree

[@davidleary823]

That’s interesting. I’ve got a 383 SBC WITH A new .630 comp roller I’m gonna check with my big degree wheel-comp cams. Really curious.

[@TbirdBoss24]

For the next test You could make the sbf a clevor Those are dry intakes, too like the LS

[@stephenhowe7872]

This is exactly why I only run Howard's cams

[@hankclingingsmith8707]

I switched to Howard's also.

[@ebinmaine]

Well done. Appreciate you sharing this.

[@KompressorPete]

Thank you soooo much for sharing all the data and experiences. Im learning a lot from you. I guess the cam doctor also will have small variations in the measurements compared to other cam doctor setups. Guess you calicbrate it?

[@69L88]

Using a motorized drive will yield more consistent and accurate readings from your Cam Doctor gradient Cam Pro Plus. Small hesitations or jersey upset the encoder, which reads to 0.0000001.

[@bowtiekid329]

Cam doctor is like checking clearances with mikes and a dial bore gage as opposed to plastigage!! There are so many things can happen w/PG... and mikes and a DBG are exactly what it is! no guessing and no questions!

[@JohnDoesItAll]

Even with a sloppy grind, the comp cams was far better engineered for power and torque. That speaks highly of their R/D department!

[@dougwatkins7985]

Sounds to me like Cam grinders need to up their quality control.

[@exploranator]

Looks like a iant bus-sized hole in the market for a sharp operator to give people exactly what they want, factoring in peak, overall and initial accelrations along with valve speeds, etc to try to make the cam profile take maximum advantage of the springs etc. in the valve train. Imagine bein able to advertise "our cams are completely consistent from lobe to lobe and they are given an actually-measured Cam Doctor chart from us." Goodbye big--scale child labor sweatshop cams.

[@craigbowers4047]

Private equity is destroying comp & Edelbrock

[@marktrevisan4431]

Yup

[@Dr_Xyzt]

It seems to me like you want to use Glidden Victor 2 heads with the SBF so you can piss on the LS engine a little bit. That would definitely be badass. -- Do the GM RS-X heads interest you for the BBC? The chambers are so small, in order to use flat tops, you're forced into 509-522 cubic inches on a stock 4" stroke. -- The AFR heads you mentioned came up really good on my parts list. On a 4.6" bore, 4.25" stroke, .048" gasket, you get 11.3 compression, 565 cubic inches.

[@bdugle1]

Great info, thanks! Comparing cam cards alone, the big difference in the two cams was Joe’s was supposed to be 4° advanced while the Erson regrind was straight up. Those differences didn’t really make it to the actual cams, so we don’t know that effect. It’s great that some companies-you mentioned Daniel Powell and Erson- give you the cam doctor info. Another enlightenment for us folks without our own dyno!

[@bicylindrico]

Be your own cam doctor and check your cams when you install them. Of course, good luck getting any resolve when you find your timing is off but maybe you can at least correct your ICL?

[@chriswise1232]

I had comp grind me a custom many years ago. It was on the very edge of p2v contact. The first one they ground for me had to go back because it wasn't really close enough to what I specced. They got it the second time around, but if you're in a race against the clock like these competitors, you're really at the mercy of their QC.

[@krusher74]

isnt their cam grinding machine computer comtrolled, arnt we far past such shoddy work, or are they still in the 80s?

[@chriswise1232]

@@krusher74 One would think they would have it down to a science, but I'm sure that all the usual corporate pressures screw everything up, just like they do everywhere else.

[@sicsempertyrannis1849]

A computer doesn't remove metal from a cam core, a machine does. Once you figure that out, then you can easily understand how a computer controlled machine can fail to produce the expected results.

[@TomBurris-um3hf]

I have ran several reground repaired solid rollers in bbc no issues

[@hotrodray6802]

🔔😎 Exactly what I've always suspected. Over the decades one car runs stronger than it's twin. Excellent👍👍👍 YeeeeHaaaaw !!🤠 BTW 25 yrs ago our race engine shop had a crank checker. I saw big name stroker cranks vary .017" stroke and 1.5* timing. These are good reasons that optimizing cam +- timing by dyno testing helps. If we were building $60,000 NASCAR engines....

[@allenbrixey1122]

Sounds like more area under the curve. Lobes can have the same lift but the shape of the lobe can make the power. His cam looks like they really shorted him on the exhaust side. Top three is really good.

[@jmflournoy386]

start by giving the timing at .006 I sorted the results by Intake Close (from Stan) and torque at 4000 The 5 earliest IC (@.050) (including DV) were all higher than the next 5 and the highest averages were in the Earliest Intake closed group (.006 would be more meaningful) Now intake Close needs to squeeze the close to maintain VELOCITY as the valve closes Just holding the intake open as long as possible and slamming it shut is not best for lots of reasons. Now all of these cams are big grinder wheel flat flank profiles. An inverse radius on the open and close gives you more degrees to get the valve open and closed at the same .050

[@regdor8187]

So, what your saying is, the area under the curve can be way different that the advertised duration represents, whodathunk... OOhhh, that rotational degree sensor on the cam Dr. has got to be one very very expensive instrument to generate a believable 000.1 degree accuracy.....And THANKS for doing this experiment, good job !!

[@johnkustra1684]

Eric I was wondering what the range of dynamic compression ratio was on any of these cams. Did you happen to do do cranking compression on any of these by any chance being they would all be good in a street car?

[@V8Lenny]

Who cares ? DCR means nothing. Actually it is not even right term, should be effective CR. Dynamic you cant measure.

[@RussellCompton-fh3gr]

great stuff AGAIN

[@Jim_Lawrence]

So the lobe is different which makes sense. Question i have is what would happen if the cams were degreed the same. It appears they are not, which tilts the curve...

[@rolandtamaccio3285]

One of the causes of the General Kinetecs downfall . Is Audie still in business ? Their's and Cam Doctor appeared about 38 years ago .

[@sicsempertyrannis1849]

I wonder if the cylinder to cylinder variances on some cams including Joe's had a net positive or negative effect because it played well with the variances of the motor itself?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Maybe

[@TbirdBoss24]

how many books do you have to date? can you make an option on your store to purchase all of your books to date including the pre-order LS book

[@goranernlund4237]

Look at the area under curve , big difference

[@scottsigmon926]

Let’s compare Joe’s screwed up comp cam to NK’s !!!!

[@WeingartnerRacing]

If you buy the data you can. Both can doctors are there.

[@Jon.simmons]

So this is showing lobe intensity? More aggressive ramp vs. more aggressive?

[@Drunken_Hamster]

So how can we get more accurate grinds and how aggressively can we make those rams so the cam lobe duration/area in the mid-lift sections (2-4mm or otherwise 0.1x valve diameter up to say 0.25x-Vd) are maximized since that will be much more effective on average than simply lengthening peak or near-peak lift?

[@davelewis2174]

Proof you have to check everything !!!

[@SWREngineering]

If you want a set of cam cards that _might_ show you relevant data to compare cams, ask to have the duration at 0.2" added. 2 "identical" lobes can have a 15° difference at 0.2"...

[@treyrags]

Area under the curve, jerk, acceleration. What's even more concerning is the variation from lobe to lobe on the same cam!

[@robertsimmons7078]

Hi Eric, great job on the challenge, and it's been interesting and informative. I've watched the video a few times now and noticed something is like you to clear up for us viewers. The Joe Carrol cam is obviously more aggressive than Erson cam after .050 lift, according to the cam doctor report, by having a faster accelerating valve therfore more valve lift thru the duration curve after .050 providing more airflow to the cylinder, which makes sense, and it grows larger as the rpm rises because the engine demands more. However it looked to me that the cam doctor report on the 2 cams also shows almost 2° difference in intake lobe centerline. I'm assuming the cam doctor reads this from the timing gear locating pin, which means if all the parts during the cam change are used, then the cam timing would also be 2° different changing all 4 valve events that much. So can you confirm please if there was a difference between the Icl of the 2 and couldn't some of the power gains be contributed to the cam timing being almost 2° retarded from the Erson cam ? Thanks for all the content you provided. I will be supporting you thru your future tests coming ahead. Thanks again

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I have explained this in later videos but the cam doctor has no idea of where the piston is in relation to the cam. So you manually enter icl. It cannot be measured by the cam doctor. After it measures it tells you how to get to the icl. Since it was manually entered 110 the card shows you the cam can get to that number. In this case retarding.

[@ronnieraines3975]

Was the shortest duration on the comp cam cyl.#1 intake lobe???

[@Alaska_Engineer]

What a sham! A fella can do everything possible to balance and equalize each cylinder only to get scammed on the cam! I might just get a CamDr review on my next camshaft

[@krusher74]

yeah ,this has made the whole cam challenge a waste of time, how many of the competitors actually got the cam they wanted to enter ground to correct spec. I wonder if vizard checked his, he did very poorly with all his years on knowledge.

[@hotrodray6802]

​@@krusher74 Try to listen: DV said early on that he has little experience on LS engines and was seeking information to expand his cam program to the LS engines. Take a chill pill

[@hankclingingsmith8707]

This is why you pay big money for a real race shop for motors that win races they check everything

[@psychoholicslag4801]

So you're saying that the more that you know, the more you know that you don't know.

[@bicylindrico]

Probably don't want to know

[@exploranator]

it's like digging a hole in the ocean.

[@psychoholicslag4801]

@@exploranator nice.

[@hankclingingsmith8707]

That happens as you age starting @50

[@stevenong9023]

I don't see anything wrong with this I degreed my shelf hr265 from 2006' a while back (212/218 115lsa) it's actually a 213/218 114.8lsa! Im ok with that close enough. He could have told the guy he ordered it from he was using it for a contest and so he got what he needed not what he wanted perfect storm 3rd place in that lineup ain't bad i mean wow what happened to Vizard's cam did somebody drop it? Basically the same spec as the other two right?

[@ragingbull3406]

Awesome video!

[@chrisstavro4698]

Which one idled better? Was it obvious that the Comp would make more power than the Erson?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Both idled fine. Less that 1k

[@seantroutt3291]

Did I read that right? The COMP cam card said 104 int centerline, but the cam Dr. said 110 for Joes Cam. If that is the case Joes cam was 2 deg retarded, which also adds to the way his cam made more power up top than the Erson cam which was straight up.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Ignore the centerline. You can put whatever number you want in there but it measure everything else then it tells you how to get to your centerline

[@Doug-b4p]

The difference on joe carols lobes means they had to change to different lobe pattern rings on the grinder i wonder what would the results be if all lobes were cam dr on joes cam mite be eye opening what do u say