Skill Builder V Heat Geek | Heat Pump Argument | Part 2

Roger Bisby from Skill Builder and Adam from Heat Geek finally face off about the true future of heating! Thanks again for joining us, Roger!
→ PART 1 on Skill Builder: • Skill Builder V Heat G...
→ COURSES - Become a MASTER of renewable heating: courses.heatgeek.com/
→ HEAT GEEK ASSURED HEAT PUMP INSTALLATIONS: www.heatgeek.com/heat-geek-as...
or
[e-mail]
→ More free content: www.heatgeek.com/
SOCIALS 🙋‍♂️
→ Twitter: / _heatgeek
→ Facebook: / heatgeek
→ Insta: / heat_geek
#heatpump #heating #renewableenergy

[@inanepunk475]

Followed over from SB part 1. Really enjoyed the video, you both handled yourselves well and it was refreshing to see two people that have differing views have a friendly debate without coming to blows - this world could use a lot more of this. Hopefully some more of Rogers ~500k subs will help your channel grow. Looking forward to seeing Roger at an installation, so please make that happen. Keep up the great work.

[@HeatGeek]

Thanks! Doesn't seem many of the fans on his channel feel the same 🤣 which was expected

[@80adrian80]

@@HeatGeek I'm a fan of @Skillbuilder you both have really good points. Nice to have a sensible debate.

[@OMGAnotherday]

@@HeatGeek A friend of mine said "Never underestimate the silent majority" there are more of us than people know :-)

[@billysmart24830732]

@@HeatGeek I came over from Skillbuilder which historically has been brilliant. Roger is just angry at the World and doesn't know why or at least cannot make a fact based summary that explains his rantings. He never used to be like that, this last 6 months or so he has ventured into the realms of conspiracy theory and unstructured tirades. He agrees we need change but then rages against things that provide it. Yes, electric vehicles are not perfect for every role but don't say electric vehicles are rubbish because they performed poorly in one speciffic role. Anyone who quotes their source as the Daily Mail, refers back to the Thatcher days and wants us to go back to how it was needs to be wheeled back in front of the TV and given a chewy toffee to shut them up. As for the difference in channel feedback, don't be too bothered by it. Anger is much more likely to provoke a reaction which is why the Daily Fail talks such crap, it sells papers. For it keep working, you have to continually talk crap e.g. Fox and GB news etc. Better to keep your credibility and continually grow and diversify. If you setup another channel, you already have my interest to check it out based on what you have done so far with this one. For me, Roger has taken a huge credibility hit and regularly switch off as soon as he gets politcal.

[@filthebeats]

@@HeatGeek your initial video reaction to his was not exactly unbiased and almost dismissive of Roger and his knowledge and experience. However it was good to see you both get through a sensible discussion allowing you to both to get your sides over to the audience, the mere fact that you arranged this discussion shows you are both better than the current PM leadership candidates. Adam and his partner are clearly intelligent and making great efforts for a young industry but being more realistic, open and upfront about where the heatpumps will be appropriate would be better. No one will want to live in suburbia with a drone of these pumps going on and as discussed, the majority of families don't have the cash to change their heating system for green issue benefit

[@deanfakes5314]

The old dog has note pad ,the young pup has a laptop , love it

[@terdcruz]

title speak itself to see the differences , SB V HG part to increase view and likes as targeted.

[@HogwartsBasement]

@Jim Snead I think not 😂 he’s a white van man that specialises in nothing. Heat geek specialises in this field, I’d trust they know better than him. Gas isn’t an option clearly he hasn’t came up with a viable alternative than him bodging a heat pump install for a customer once and they weren’t happy

[@Progen77]

@Jim Snead The Old Dog speaks practically, the young pup talks about potential, the future, optimizing insulation, perfect installs and "carbon". I believe in an inperfect world where installs and insulation are crap and gas is the most reliable in that situation.

[@johnbull5394]

@@Progen77 You sound like me a few years ago. I was really anti the ban on normal lightbulbs. As I had some of each type of lightbulb and knew where I wanted them (and I knew how to turn them off). Then they banned normal lightbulbs and LEDs got so much better that I actually replaced lightbulbs that were still working in order to fit LEDs and, 6 years on, I'm still very happy with them. If you ever go to Sweden, have a look at the buildings around you. They don't seem to have the crap building we allow in this country. So what I believe is that if we accept crap because it's inevitable, that's what we'll get, but if we seriously decide we have to improve matters, we will. Obviously there's no point in banning gas if we're still happy to allow shoddy installations, which I think is where we agree.

[@Progen77]

@@johnbull5394 I agree with your points but a second element of my thoughts is that I do not see high quality heat pump tech in the US. My best friend owned a Heat/AC company and he loved Fujitsu units. He was like the King of Mini-split units in NYC. But he said that once the air got too cold they could not effectively pull heat when there was not enough heat present. Once the air was below freezing you were done. He advocated it for warmer states and as a secondary heat source that saved you money at medium temps in cold states. Not as a primary heat source in cold states. I have not seen any tech in my area that would dispute that 😎

[@nearlygoodenuf]

This is what healthy debate looks like. 2 Great videos from two fellas who really know their onions coming at the issue from different (but ultimately not opposing ) standpoints. Brilliant stuff

[@imranmajid1978]

These guys should become joint UK heat policy advisors to the government (when they're not having parties!)

[@Space-O-2001]

For the last time it was a MEETING......with wine and nibbles.

[@TheWaxChainFanClub]

Brilliant stuff. I really hope Roger goes along to an install with you guys.

[@matthewhook3375]

Same, I'd love to see this. Along with a 1 or 2 year follow up checking back in with the owner to see how well the system has been performing when it's installed properly.

[@Daniells1982]

Love both channels and really enjoyed the debate. Great points raised by both Adam and Roger and you're both great communicators and presenters of information. One thing I will say is regardless of your opinion on heat pumps currently, the industry will become a car crash without people like Adam and the Heat Geeks who strive for better design, better knowledge, better training, better technology, better installs. The passion really shows through.

[@GivOwaMan]

Oozing

[@matthewhook3375]

hear hear, the car has already left the road and is perilously close to crashing - there are plenty of horror stories out there of crap installations with sky high running costs and it makes people wary, understandably. Adam is fearlessly trying to regain control of the car and get it pointing in the right direction again, which is commendable.

[@chualarbill]

I really wish we could integrate the Heat, AC, Clothes Dryer, Refrigerator, and Water Heater into a single interconnected system. (Ground Loop, Heat Pumps, Solar Pre-Heating, etc. ) Create large hot and cold storage that can be tapped as needed throughout the day. Sometimes you may need to just dump heat, or cold, but otherwise, it can be recovered and put to use...

[@SuperWayneyb]

The main thing is this conversation is happening at all and future tech is being invested in and developed. We could lead the world in renewables etc if we do have the guts and the will to go for it 🤘😎🤘

[@jeremyenns7330]

Roger: look at what it is. Adam: look at what it could be. Roger: look at what it is. Adam: look at what it could be. Roger: look at what it is. Adam: look at what it could be.

[@andrewmedlicott]

Both Adam and Roger are doing an amazing job of explaining key issues related to our journey to net zero in our heating systems. We will all be much happier if we at least try to solve the problem of climate change. If China and others don't play ball and the worst climate scenarios happen, at least we know in our hearts that we've tried. If there are a few bad heat pump installations due to the speed we must move, that's an acceptable price to pay for real progress.

[@carlfielding2082]

Came over from SkillBuilder, well done on a healthy debate. I wish everyone could do this nowadays lol. Subscribed.

[@HeatGeek]

Thank you!

[@LeiChat]

So easy to only see content on one, potentially inaccurate, side of a debate. You need to actively seek out the alternative opinions and not just let KZbin's algorithm serve up content that reaffirms your bias.

[@robmillburn]

What a great pair of videos. I watched the original films and it was so pleasant to see both parties articulating their views and realizing they had more in agreement than disagreement. TV gold to me.

[@starbarguy]

Great conversation. Well done on coming together and having meaningful dialogue. 👏

[@richardgreendev]

Amazing videos guys! Really nice to see two passionate and knowledgeable people engaging in a thorough discussion on important topics

[@Accringtonman]

Thank you both and well done for generating more light than heat, which too many debates fail to do. Roger mentioned leak detection, so here's a throwaway idea I never got to try on a real system (retired now). Vehicle screenwash (possibly the anti-freeze component) sets off a combustible gas detector (try taking the lid off, putting the sensor at the mouth of the container and watching the detector go crazy). It should be possible to put some screenwash in the system and use the combustible gas detector to hunt for leaks. I assume it would need to be flushed out afterwards.

[@luckyo414]

Brilliant ! Love both of you. Wish the government had people like you advising them on the whole heating industry and its lack of education. There has never been one answer to anything and it will come from a number of different technologies and this will change constantly as fast moving technologies change. WE NEVER STOP LEARNING!

[@kylebrowning7469]

Really love the video guys! Old school having a debate with new school, I’ve always prided myself on being a top tier engineer designing low temp heating system break downs etc. And always try be honest with customers. But your videos have made me go out of my way even more to learn and become better with hot water priority and hydrologic separation. Only 26 running my own business with a partner and two guys working for me and it’s been nice to go to them with this new knowledge especially to the two older guys working for me, it makes you feel more fulfilled as an installer not just ripping people off and banging in crap. Going to look at the heat geek course and there only one guy down in Exeter I’ve see who has

[@OMGAnotherday]

Good on you! Its a fascinating subject and if done right as you have pointed out, can transform peoples lives. I was a sales person selling to architects (now retired) but I always prided myself on selling the most efficient products, it wasn't easy though as cheap has always been high on peoples agenda and convincing them to go the extra few £ thousand was always hard.

[@TomSmith-jp1es]

I only found SB today through the RAAC video and am now here after watching part 1 of this conversation on SB and I love it. I don't own a house, I have never thought about heat pumps before now I've watch 90 minutes all about the heating industry and I'm hooked! Great work to both of these channels for sitting down and having this conversation, love it.

[@timbdesign]

I am a member of public but not a plumber and wince at the amount we are spending to heat a house built in 1990 with gas! A neighbour has installed a heat pump but went back to using his gas boiler as it was costing him more to run the heat pump. I suspect it wasn't designed properly for a property with microbore pipes. If I could get an assurance my heating costs would be no higher with a heat pump I would go ahead, solely to help cut carbon emmisions for our children and grandchildren. I'm hoping to persuade our daughter to switch from gas to a heat pump and, if succesfull, will be paying Heat Geek to survey their house. I'm really impressed with their knowledge and ability to explain technical things in a way I can understand. Keep up the great work!

[@danhollins935]

Well done! A good example of how the discussion about renewables vs other technologies should be approached.

[@earleyrider]

Followed over from SB part 1. Very informative and so genuine arguments put over. so refreshing and very interesting , excellent and informative from both sides.

[@MrBigbeee]

Very interesting and informative. Confess I had considered infrared so this was useful information!

[@ess2k456]

Great video, good to see you both sat at a table discussing face to face, very interesting.

[@ianabbott3421]

Great to see intelligent conversation linking the full scope of design, install, & operation of new technology which is essential for progress- well done guys 🍻

[@UrbanPlumbers]

really enjoy wathching this!

[@HeatGeek]

Haha its fun watching for me too! Couple of urban plumber mentions too!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@HeatGeek yep - noticed those. I will be kind to Roger now :)

[@TheDickPuller]

I agree Dracula, it was a good debate & insightful. You keep up the good work Son, your installs are great👍

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@TheDickPuller thanks Mate! I always enjoy your comments :) Your insults are legendary!

[@SkillBuilder]

@@UrbanPlumbers Don't bother, I can take a bit of stick. If you have a point make it without fear or favour. You do great work and care.

[@krnlg]

This is a really great discussion, thanks to you both!

[@b-techheatingltd6690]

Enjoyed both parts and had a feeling you’d get along, look forward to the follow up vid on Rogers thoughts after the heat pump site visit. 👍🏻

[@devonbikefilms]

I love how skilbuilder uses the language that we hear in the oil sponsored media, just because more wealthy people can afford it now, it’s the first part of the chain that starts to reduce prices as we get to scale with production. These is an enormous reduction in Carbon dioxide from heat pumps. His whole argument is we’ll need more stuff and it’s different to what we’ve done, and I don’t like it, innovation brings change, some win, some loose but that’s how we move forward. The big effort should be on the insulation of properties and much higher standards for new builds which should be passive. If other countries can do it, why should we be proud to lag behind.

[@m1nfy]

'Lag behind' i'm sure there is a plumbing inefficiency pun in there somewhere :-)

[@OMGAnotherday]

But wouldn't it be better if nobody lost, and that's where Roger is coming from, people spending money the didn't necessarily have on systems that don't work as needed. Those stories are a tragedy for the customers but more so for the industry.

[@davideyres955]

Enormous reduction in carbon dioxide from heat pumps? You do know that on average 50% of the power from the grid is from gas fired power stations that run at around 30-40% efficiency? Generally the heat created by these power stations goes to waste. (Should be used for community heating) With the extra electric cars flowing in the requirement of the grid is going up all the time and the problem is renewables are intermittent. So we need something that can vary quickly and your back to gas. Heat pumps are great in the right situation but not all.

[@tightmarker9924]

Great conversation and thanks for taking time to explain the issues. 👍👍

[@Sean006]

A great video that was thoughtful and had lots of excellent ideas. It also gives me hope that people who disagree can 'sometimes' work together for the common good to tackle serious issues.

[@kevinisaac9139]

great video Roger I've been a heating engineer for 30plus years glad ime coming out this new part l regs every boiler change

[@leonidasking7502]

Been watching both of you for a while. Love this discussion. You two are very similar People, more similar than I think either of you would like to admit haha

[@Shutityou]

My mum has an electric boiler. If you are rich they are perfect. Small, silent, instant and clean at the point of use. Sadly costs a mint to run but plenty people don’t have any money worries, hence installs in London going through the roof.

[@martinlintzgy1361]

Fascinating discussion from 2 smart professionals. Look forward to part 3.

[@johntisbury]

I've watched both parts on both channels. Great videos and overall discussion. Great to hear the key points and concerns around subsidies, training, investment, hydrogen for domestic homes (cough - turkeys voting for Christmas). Thank you for making this and sharing.

[@boydovens4180]

A very decent and honest debate on the pros and cons of heat systems , really enjoyed it . Bottom line is what you can afford is what you get . And in todays financially strapped home owners , that will be extremely hard .

[@AllenHart999]

Amazing video. Been waiting for this one.

[@HeatGeek]

Thanks Allen

[@HeatGeek]

We just ended up getting on to be honest

[@gino2465]

Wow good on you both well done for getting together

[@dorsetengineering]

Followed you both for a long time now, this was a great discussion. Nice to see...

[@redginrai664]

Fascinating debate. I have been following skill builder for sometime and I have now subscribed to your channel. My opinion of heat pumps have changed since I watched both parts to this video. I look forward to watching all your content and to learn more about heat pumps. Great debate. Keep up the good work.

[@dale_ch]

Excellent and informative debate. I've subscribed to Rogers SB Chanel for years, now I've subscribed to HG, a result for you Adam as I'm not easily convinced towards new KZbin subscriptions!

[@michaelberry2845]

Great discussion- I followed both Rodger’s and Heat Geeks videos around heat pumps. Firstly- this is how conversations should happen. If only the rest of the world could follow this example. It’s very easy to close the conversation. Heat networks were mentioned fleetingly- I’d be interested in thoughts around this topic. Probably using both heat pump and possibly hydrogen boilers serving multiple buildings - particularly in cities and towns. I think the emphasis on this is a similar point with heat pumps. The success of this is down to the design and installation. Similar horror stories with initial projects in the UK as that industry is in its infancy stage- but on paper- mass decarbonisation quickly/ no tank/ low cost and familiar look and feel for homeowners.

[@stevendavidson5808]

loved both videos guys your both very knowledgeable and I would trust both of you to install anything in my property, although I'd prefer a HEAT PUMP lol. keep it up guys, this rhe the kind of honest debate we need. can't wait to see the video of install with Roger. 8m sure he'll be pleasantly surprised and is humble enough to admit it. thanks guys

[@markramsay6399]

Utterly amazing. Watched part 1 last night. Now watched this. Apart from the actual subject matter in hand, this is a masterclass in how to argue, debate, evaluate - using facts. Considering the nightmare in politics (October 21, 2022), this is so refreshing indeed. "They" should be forced to study this as part of an indication course. Mark. (Disclosure - I have a full heat pump system installed in 2011. Mixed feelings about it. Note that our system does NOT have an electric heating element and will raise water to 55C throughout the year. So we do not feel cold, but in the winter it is very expensive. The whole system was designed for the house - house has huge double radiators etc etc).

[@mhoush]

These same arguments on both sides happen here in the states too, appreciate the content.

[@_a.z]

I love Adam's enthusiasm and approach to the future!

[@nickhickson8738]

What a nice amiable, intelligent guy Adam is. Obviously he's young and got a vested interest in the newer technologies. Roger is great as always and represents the older, experienced but more cynical side. Who's right only time will tell. Excellent videos.

[@HeatGeek]

Thankyou! Very kind

[@breakz187]

Obviuosly Roger :)

[@juliahello6673]

Experience isn’t worth much when technology is changing. Look at traditional automakers. They’re having a hard time switching to electric, but young startups are having no trouble.

[@speculawyer]

The fact that natgas costs FIVE TIMES what it cost last year ends the debate.

[@HeatGeek]

@@speculawyer so does electricity..

[@guylambrechts2303]

Great to see that people can differ from opinion without just shouting at each other. I'm still pro Heat Geek and ready for my heat pump install.

[@enemyofthestatewearein7945]

Great points about consumer knowledge and ability to deal day to day with more complex systems. It's a problem but there are plenty of older folk who manage to use the internet and smartphones etc. and if they do get stuck perhaps they call their nephew or something for help. So I think Adam has it spot on that the main thing is to get the message out there to as many people as possible, because then at some point just about everybody will know someone who can help if they need some advice or assistance

[@nervousfrog101]

One thing possibly worth mentioning is that heat pumps are a lot better at using diverted solar PV from my roof than gas boilers. If you can run your HP during the day on electricity from your PV and battery storage and then use cheap rate(low co2) electricity at night they will be a lot cheaper to run than a gas boiler and produce a lot less co2. Totally agree on the carbon tax and insulation points.

[@scottpeters8142]

I'm sure no one will disagree that is the ideal situation, however, your talking about 20-25k for a full heat pump install with a PV and battery storage, and that's before addressing any improvements in insualtion. Sadly, the vast majority of people will never have that kind of cash to fit it, and as much as everyone would like to go green, it will always boil down to cost

[@nervousfrog101]

@@scottpeters8142 Green tech is no different to other tech the early adopters pay extra to get in because it's something they believe in and that allows the industry to scale up and lower costs. Just look at computers, mobile phones etc. I started when I had no spare cash by taking advantage of home insulation grants and then upgrading insulation where I could. I have had solar panels for 11 years now. I borrowed the money to install them. The FIT has paid back the loan and now the FIT is funding the rest of my green upgrades. The same with my EV. I bought the car on PCP the savings in running costs are paying back the extra cost of the car. You can invest in a windfarm from as little as £25 and upgrading insulation is certainly cheaper than energy costs.

[@arsenal70001]

Top class respectful debate. Reducing embodied carbon and energy use is the biggest challenge of the next decade. Credit to Geek Heat for putting some great info out there.

[@arieveloo9808]

What a great video! Thanks 👍👍

[@clivereynolds6633]

A Pair of PROPER GEEZERS Talking from their own experiences and in-depth knowledge. GET YOUR ASSES INTO No 10

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

thanks guys very nice presentation , i really enjoyed listening and learning

[@duncanarrow]

Fascinating discussion. And this is why I’ve opted for a new boiler rather than going down the heat pump route. Over a month just for a surveyor to come out. At least 5 months until an installation (and prob delayed again). Huge upheaval and changes to the home. Lack of service engineers and potential problem with parts. I’m sticking with a good old reliable brand new Worcester Bosch boiler for the next 15+ years.

[@OMGAnotherday]

I'm here from Rogers Skillbuilder - Great discussion guys

[@gogee8510]

Really enjoyed the video.

[@barrydoherty636]

Well done to the both of you, interesting conversation.

[@deeeirl]

Great videos guys!

[@reinmansmith]

So good to hear a proper sensible discussion on a subject, full marks to both of you. It’s a rare thing these days. 👏👏

[@stauffap]

Not really sensible. A lot of what Roger is saying isn't sensible at all. You can't keep using gas and oil heaters. He does not really seem to understand that. If i had to guess, i would say that he doesn't really understand much about global warming i.e. he's misinformed about it. You can't just look one technology, if you want a successfull energy transition and achieve carbon neutrality. You actually have to ask how a completely renewable energy system can work. And we just don't have enough renewable energy to use 3 or even 10 times more energy in the heating sector i.e. we can't afford to not heavily rely on heat pumps. They BY FAR the technology that uses the least energy. Nothing else comes close to it. Well, actually better thermal insulation would also have a large effect, but most people can't afford a better insulation AND a heat pump. And just getting a better insulation while sill using an oil or gas heater just isn't an option. If you look at studies about the energy transition in the UK, then you'll see that there are enough potential renewable energy sources to achieve the full transition away from fossil fuels, but not by much. It works with heat pumps and electric cars, since they reduce the primary energy demand drastically (by about 70 percent), but it probably won't work if we want to heat with hydrogen and drive cars powered by e-fuels. The UK doesn't have that much energy.

[@pingxingming]

@@stauffap Talk about jumping to conclusions. Just because someone has a different opinion, that doesn't make them uninformed as long as their points aren't refuted. I don't think SB disagrees with your otherwise balanced view even. I at least agree... The name of the game is "potential", though. Potential alone won't heat drafty British homes.

[@stauffap]

@@pingxingming Of course potential alone isn't enough. It has to be done of course. But it's economically and technologically possible to have an energy system without fossil fuels. Again, there is enough in the scientifc literature about this. We now know that it's possible. So, i don't really see why you shouldn't be able to heat every "drafty" home in Britain with heat pumps. If a central heat pump isn't an option, then most of the time a AC (mini split heat pump) is works. What's also great about AC's is that you could keep your fossil fuel heating system and use the AC to reduce the energy needed from fossil fuels. The effect is a lot bigger then people initially think. For example, with an AC that has about half the heating power of your fossil fuel heater, you can cover up to 70 percent of your energy requirement. And the explanation of why that is, is quite beautiful. After all most of the year you don't need the full power of your heater. So most of the year can be covered with only the AC. The full power of the oil heater is justed need on a few of the coldest days, but even at those days you can still cover half of your heating requiremment with the AC in our scenario. So you buy an AC with a certain percentage of your maxiumum heating power requirement and you can replace a substantially higher percentage of your fossil fuel. Another great thing is that the investement is small and you can switch gradually to less and less fossil fuels, which is totally ok for the energy transition. I'm convinced that it can be done. The information just hasn't been able to reach the general public.

[@pingxingming]

@@stauffap You raise many important points and I share your optimism, I'm just wary of all this glossing over of upfront costs and lack of trained installers; I think the government is doing the cause a disservice if they push too hard just yet. But you've given me much to consider. Thanks.

[@stauffap]

@@pingxingming I'm a bit confused. Why do you think we need qualified installer to install AC's? That's pretty straight forward as far as i know. With quick connect systems it could even be done DIY, but that's not allowed currently due to bureaucratic hurdles.

[@gasfitter78]

Great video!! in my opinion customers' attitude has not changed in the 20yr I've been in the industry the general public is self-centred and doesn't have the time to research the installation of a heat pump. They are more interested in a no-talent family "Kardashian" or the next love triangle in love island than looking on their phones or tablet to look at the central heating design as long as big companies can promise one size fits all installation and promise to make installation stress free your message will fall on deaf ears. I don't think you'll see the results until the end of your working life unless there is a big change in public opinion. But I commend you for endeavouring and keep up the fight for low-temperature heating

[@DoctorRetina]

This series was epic. I previously had a low opinion of Skill Builder Roger, he gets a lot of stick from many KZbin channels for being a sellout to boiler companies etc but I have a new found respect for him. More collabs please.

[@paulusher3278]

great content. Thanks

[@1973simonking]

This is great, I’m having these same conversations day after day.

[@ram64man]

totally agree with Roger - we do need an independent energy policy, I'm fortunate enough to now own a us home as well with duel citizenship, i have gone from oil heating to a heat pump, into a new European style home, right now the us are currently 10 years behind the uk in insulation and heating in general, even with the green push with off grid propane being the only alternative we went down the heat pump route, (granted the building is not finished at this time but is insulated to 20mm - this will be supplemented this year) even with the underfloor piped heating, the building still felt cold (granted it did fall to -14c) but with the home even with a multi split twin 28000 btu equivalent it still ran on the direct electric heating bypass every time it froze over (and went into a defrost cycle) the energy used even with a cheaper rate totaled 1200 dollars in electric, no one can afford that sort of electric usage. my uk 4 bed home based on this experience (and nothing to do with the pain in the ass protestors) insulated, insulated, insulated, 250mm externally, 25mm internally on external walls, 300mm in the loft, the property had what must have been the last oven vent regular installed in the 80's i now have a 25kw system boiler, that is supplemented with pv in the roof heating a 250 liter A rated tank, that again was extra insulated right now because the insulation (including two room heat exchanger vents) the heating is Off, the PV has heated the tank even from half empty ever since march by its self in the day with twin solar diverters. everyone talks about 3.5 SOc but the fact is the cost of that electric is rising to ridiculous levels, PV isn';t the way , there is this misconception that 6-8 panels can cover your energy usage, sure in summer with a 8kwh battery its great, but forget about it in winter my 10kw us install just generated 1,3 kwh in a day in december, all these heat pump installs just don't make clear just how much energy is being used even with a 3 cop rating your still looking at £anywhere from 700-900 pounds to run each year. not to mention the fact that the majority of 80's or older houses just still don't have underfloor or even correctly sized rads its not just social housing that needs upgrading, if anyone is thinking of direct electric heating or hot water boilers forget it, even with off peak rates it will cost an absolute fortune. we cannot have a repeat of the nibe incident with our future, i still strongly feel there will be mix of hydrogen into the network to SUPLMENT a change, but what that future is is not and SHOULD NOT be heat pumps alone. and why I still like a direct gas equivelent, no one is talking about with hydrogen your usage goes up to old gen boilers due to it being less efficient to current gas

[@HeatGeek]

Don't think anyone's saying Heat pumps alone?

[@caterthun4853]

Be aware when discussing hydrogen. Unless technology improves. It takes 4kw energy to manufacture 1kw hydrogen. The opposite of heat pumps.

[@ram64man]

@@caterthun4853 the current test uses energy off peak for 200 people and 3rd party indtrustry there are plans for creating hydrogen from cow food too that's cleaner than current

[@garrywhiting8398]

It's about time that Roger followed up on your invitation to an installation. Lots of people are keen to see him being won over. 😂

[@SkillBuilder]

It didn't happen, they have not managed to find a real installation in an older house that they will let us film. We are ready to go.

[@HeatGeek]

Been too busy! Hopefully we can do John’s house!

[@mikesammon4028]

Well done to both of you for a good spirited and important discussion. It was a little frustrating seeing Roger trying to drag it into a political discussion but there was lots of valuable knowledge from Adam and cold hard facts. The heat pump saynayers need to come up with solutions not problems.

[@Space-O-2001]

Watched part 1, great debate and good points allround.

[@martinhsl68hw]

Glad to see things didn't get too heated

[@richardholdway9335]

What a brilliant debate I call it a draw over two parts ,I have been a plumber/ heating engineer for 40 years ,retired now ,and low temperature heating design,I don’t have a clue I will look at heat geek site to find out all about it ,and might look at my system ,great show and no blood was spilled 👍👍👍

[@evervol1]

You guys on the heat geek team are very passionate at changing our carbon emissions that really is great to see from people In this industry... I think that's the problem with most installers and plumbers today.. there's no passion

[@johnh9449]

Great to hear the conversation. One major thing that's been missed is the combination of solar PV plus battery powering the ASHP. With that you can effectively go off grid most of the year with the summer surplus charging your EV so you can "drive on sunshine", with cheap rate electricity supplementing the ASHP in winter. The running cost saving is huge and very green.

[@singlendhot8628]

You can't be a solar PV owner. PV doesn't generate enough to cover non-heat pump electricity consumption during December and January, even for an efficient home, which are peak heat pump usage months. Good in theory but not in reality sadly.

[@goncalovazpinto6261]

How about instead of PV using solar water heating to complement heat pumps? More efficient transfer of energy, simpler system, much cheaper. You could circulate the water in the system through solar water heating panels during the day...

[@johnh9449]

@@singlendhot8628 It's an 8kWh array with 15kWh battery and generation crosses ASHP consumption April and October.

[@johnh9449]

@@goncalovazpinto6261 'Twas a thought but I wanted to make the most of the surplus in summer - either EV or even aircon possibly but I've am Eddie for any spare energy to heat the water. The winter with Octopus Go 7.5p rate supplements the ASHP into the battery and a bigger battery/inverter could go further but there are practical limits.

[@singlendhot8628]

@@johnh9449 Got it. With that sort of a system, you may very well run the ASHP but can forget about return on investment. Most can barely afford the £5K it costs to install a non-Chinese 4kW system today.

[@007butty]

Great conversation both have great points

[@aaronag7876]

Great video and lots of info. Still not sold on the idea. Moving into a house that is 20 years old, wanted to replace the original boiler which has a water tank as well, with a heat pump but with all the issues and that this new tech cant give instant heat like a combine boiler.

[@DominickPeluso]

This was a great talk

[@7magicnumber]

a good end to a rocky road, well done all involved.

[@NoahSmith1]

Great discussion! I do think Roger's statement about heat pumps only having a marginal carbon benefit should have been more rebuffed though, as he's still repeating it and it seems a core part of his hesitation towards heat pumps. The embodied carbon in a heat pump is only 4% of the lifetime operational emissions of a gas boiler, so you could replace your heat pump every couple of years and it would still be better! I did try and post a link to the source, but I think youtube then thought the comment was spam.

[@SkillBuilder]

Man made CO2 is at most 3% of total carbon. If heat pumps reduce it on a global scale it will make 0.0000001% at best. If you seriously think that this stunt will make a difference to climate change you are deluded. Do things that work. Even climate change experts will tell you this is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Every year thousands of delegates fly to a resort and discuss the impending crisis and make pledges that they fail to keep. In all that time CO2 has not been reduced by one gram.

[@blahblah1234392]

Interesting debate but I tend to agree with Roger that as things, without government subsidies, it is still far cheaper to heat your house with a condensing gas boiler. Taking into account efficiencies and distribution losses, 1kWh of heat into your home with an ASHP is £0.11 and for a condensing boiler it is £0.08. Assumptions: Gas £0.07/kWh; Electricity £0.28/kWh Gas boiler COP 0.9; ASHP SCOP 2.5 I hear the argument about SCOP but it’s somewhat misleading because it’s not weighted to take into account sessional usage. The reality is that you use the ASHP the most when it’s cold and at its lowest COP. I have an ASHP and when it gets below 6C outside it’s consistently going through a defrost cycle. In terms of CO2 emissions, things change. How much gas was used for 1kWh in the home? Gas 1.12; Electricity 1.01 In the last year, 43% of power generation was from fossil fuels, taking this into account: How much gas was used for 1kWh in the home? Gas 1.12; Electricity 0.43 Assumptions: Energy conversion efficiency (generation): Gas 100%; Electricity (from Gas) 44% Energy distribution efficiency: Gas 99%; Electricity 90% Energy conversion efficiency (consumption): Gas boiler 90%; ASHP 250% Looking at the power generation as of today 20-7-22. 43% fossil fuel; 19% wind; 15% nuclear. The last nuclear power station was commissioned in 1987, 35 years ago and yet it makes up nearly as much as wind. Successive governments have failed to provide us with any meaningful long term energy strategy and only in 2016 was the newest nuclear power plant, Hinkley point C, commissioned to replace Hinkley point B due for decommissioning this month. The green Levi makes our industry globally uncompetitive and hits house hold bills hard, in the 21st century affordable energy should be a human right. Of the energy we buy, only 36% is the cost of the energy, 18% tax and 2% profit.

[@BristolHeatPumps]

Great video guys glad you got on well. As someone who was very negative about Roger im happy to say i was wrong partly and he comes across very well.

[@HeatGeek]

Cheers Craig

[@Sean006]

Craig, I agree with you. Roger comes across as a level headed person who is open to new ideas.....when he isn't trying to create click bait! I reckon his heart is in the right place.

[@RichardYates118]

Great set of videos. Whilst I'm very pessimistic about anything government does these days (I'm mid 30s) I could offer one optimistic view on the boiler upgrade scheme and compare it to the solar FIT scheme's beginnings. There's no denying when it first started when FIT payments were in the 40p/kWh range and the installation costs were huge that only the most affluent folks could afford to install them. Never the less over time it did kick the solar industry into high gear and brought more solar investment in both technology, price as well as training to the point it's far more affordable now than it was back then. I could see something similar occurring over time with the move towards heat pumps if adoption starts to build. I also think there will be a point where we need to stop with the carrots and get the stick out which will be to re-balance electricity vs gas levy's as Adam mentioned. I think so much of the "gas is king" movement is centered entirely around false economics that gas is significantly cheaper than electricity. If gas + electricity costs were more on par (or even the other way round if you added some kind of carbon tax into the mix!) then the shift away would be so compelling and undeniable that mass adoption would take place. Don't ever lose that optimistic drive Adam+team!

[@blackhoundrise8431]

I missed the live battle but the replay is still on KZbin! Yeeeeessssss!!!

[@geoffwoodgate7450]

I have just come back from India. Visiting an very large oil refinery in Visag which is on the east coast. They are currently doubling the size of the refinery. Oil isn't going away soon. There is another giant refinery nearing completion in Nigeria. It is going to be Africa's largest refinery.

[@zcfacd0]

Keep up the conversations. The problem can only be solved through collaboration.

[@katabrontes]

Hi Roger, The reason your wife feels cold sometimes when the room temperature is the same is due to "black body radiation" (infra red). All objects, including people, radiate heat in proportion to its surface temperature and the temperature of adjacent spaces (eg outside). When the outside temperature is lower the black body radiation is increased and hence there is greater heat loss from the radiating body (your wife) so she feels colder. Maybe a better way to help with this would be use a small infra red heater directed at your wife rather than increasing the room temperature. A couple of good debates, thank you both. Mike PS How refreshing to listen to a debate where each side is polite and calm and, mostly, both don't talk at once. Well done both.

[@tonymatthews1053]

Brilliant. Every Government minister should be forced to ignore their lobbyists, watch this video and sit down with the pair of you. What's plain to me is that you both care passionately about the subject, and you have the common ground that you want what's best for your customers and the planet.

[@howyanow4810]

Great interview.

[@stewartshackleton7825]

Excellent discussion. Balanced and respectful. Once the government gets involved in trying to change behaviour, the worse the outcome will be. Remember the push to diesel? That ended well - not!!

[@JaneBloggs-jr9qd]

nowt wrong with diesel , fantastic energy store that they even use to power the generators that power the EV vehicles at COP . they simply pretended that there was something wrong with diself after encouraging people to buy them

[@elorateq3672]

Enjoying watching both your channels - especially liked Roger's video on the different sources of Heat (explained in simple terms) even though the theory was familiar, the practical applications to heating a home were of interest. Having looked into getting a heat pump for my flat, I rapidly came to the conclusion that I'd need to sort out the insulation & air-tightness first, and have gone for a cheap portable heat pump as a temporary replacement/supplement for my 40+ year (and still going strong) fan heater. Unfortunately, finding a builder with experience of internal wall insulation, using more eco-friendly methods than spray polystyrene, in a remote area, is proving difficult. Perhaps this is a set of training to be added to the Heat Geek's repertoire & supplier map?

[@HeatGeek]

Absolutely!

[@retepyam5858]

It is good to see a reasoned informative debate. Historically, to produce 1 kW of electricity, you created twice as much co2 as producing 1 kW of energy from a gas boiler. Given that the percentage of electricity generated by renewable sources in more recent times, the emissions are pretty much even overall. I believe the primary goal should be to reduce first, improve the insulation standards to older properties and improve draught proofing, etc. By reducing energy consumption, you reduce emissions and costs and bring people out of fuel poverty. The potential issue with ASHP is that some installers don't budget in enough time and costs to fit and balance a boiler system, let alone a heat pump, one given the proposed volumes that the government is proposing.

[@theottinger4394]

Bloody exelent! Brilliant discussion. You both need to lobby our directionless/bent government.

[@connor3087]

Well lads great video very insightful and good to see a decent honest open debate handled with maturity and mutual respect 🙏. Quick question though for a new build would u recommend ground source or air source heat pump and if so what manufacturer?? I know it all depends in the design and the installation too but just as you are the professionals I would greatly appreciate your thoughts. Great channel lads and keep up the fine work 👏 👍

[@HeatGeek]

New build aor source will be about 3 k more than a boiler. A ground source will be another 12k odd on top of that. Also, new air source scops are as good as ground source now.. Air wins

[@grahamwoodier5066]

Well done! A civilised discussion.

[@stauffap]

You don't need 15'000 to install a heat pump. AC's (mini split heat pumps) are also heat pumps and installing those is quite cheap. And there's a very interesting effect with such heat pumps. Because even if such a heat pump only delivers about 30 percent of the heating power of your oil or gas heater then it will actually reduce you CO2 Emissions by far more then 30 percent (up to 70 percent). Everyone has to money to do that. And with time you can even expand the system with more AC's and eventually get rid of your oil heater. The great thing is also that you don't need any of that fancy system design to achieve a high SCOP since the outside and inside unite are already perfectly adjusted to each other. So, it's just a myth that heat pumps are expensive or difficult to install. Most of the time people, who say such things ignore mini split heat pumps or AC's.

[@cheeseburgerbeefcake]

Fantastic discussion around this, I'm merely an IT geek/home owner and this has brought out a lot of information (some goes over my head, but not all!). The grants going to people who can already afford them is spot on, that the industries that are heavily involved in extracting the money from grants will likely disappear or will cowboy their way through installs (like a lot of solar). The future of electricity generation holds the key, nuclear was heavily demonised over the past 30 years, technology has been moving forward however thorium reactors have not been heavily developed because you can't "defend your country" with the waste and that is a crying shame. If and hopefully when fusion is ready, energy generation will be cheap enough that powering hydrogen generation plants will be low enough cost and co2 output will be such that replacing suitable gas boilers with an alternative will be laughable (I can dream); but until then well developed/planned/installed heat pumps are the short term answer for replacing the least efficient installations.

[@HeatGeek]

Powering hydrogen plants will give sub 70% efficient hydrogen generation to Power a 90% efficient boiler.. so 10kw in gives 6kw out. Using nuclear to power a heat pump and putting 10kw in gives 35kw out. It makes scaling not only practical, but possible

[@martinknight510]

Just found these videos as ive recently had a quote for a heat pump install and very undecided to make a decision based on savings/cost to install ect too many variables

[@tedc6694]

Loved the exchange

[@andrewstafford-jones4291]

Mitsubishi Ecodan, Worcester Bosch and Waterco Ultra inverter installed on new build with under floor heating on solid floors for both ground and 1st floor. I am not saying they don't work - of course they do, its the running costs that are the problem and the fact they simply don't achieve the manufacturer's claim COP. (they will achieve it of course given exactly the right conditions but these conditions are met only about 20% of the time) The ASHP in full summer are perfect but the COP falling to sub 3 in winter makes the cost prohibitive and we use the gas and solar thermal in winter. If you told every new consumer to expect their energy bill to triple when switching from Gas/Electric to fully electric they would run a mile. My systems have now been looked over by 4 different sets of "experts/specialists and they all agree there is absolutely nothing wrong with the system (after changes were made) but not one of them dared to offer any alternative with any sort of overall efficiency guarantee.

[@drewthatsme6212]

Heat geeks, have helped me loads, with saving money with our ground source! People mess with them and don’t understand anything (like I did) 😂

[@davefarmery8180]

You must be well off and have a big garden

[@KGBot]

great conversation

[@abelfaber4457]

would love to see a instal vid with heat geek and skillbuilder, seeing old and new knowledge together