Podcast #4 ~ Getting Paid & Bad Debts

[@juancornetto8243]

Outstanding. And well done for having the balls to address the cultural issues. This channel has improved 10 fold in the last few months. *applause*

[@SkillBuilder]

Is that since we signed Robin up?

[@juancornetto8243]

@@SkillBuilder Not specifically, although Robin is clearly a valuable addition to the team. As a tradesperson I'm more interested in watching podcasts about business experience and long format videos/series on installs (like the excellent bathroom series) than watching tool reviews for brands I won't buy because I'm already tied into another 18v battery set. I also like the fact that the channel seems to be selling it's own brand these days, with the subtle support of a few sponsors, rather than appearing to be a marketing front for various different manufacturers. Whoever is editing / producing videos is also doing a good job!

[@williamn01]

@@juancornetto8243 Dylan is doing the editing he been in the videos, I agree the podcasts are superb Rogers telling about jobs and how he dealt with people is funny, keep up the good work lads all the best with future jobs and payments 👆👌💪

[@jamesl2768]

Roger!! Make the roof olympics happen 🤣

[@tridneven]

Cultural issues you say , he said 'we in UK agree the price that does not change and that is it ' what is bulshit because I ve seen lot of native UK ppl with wrong calculations that in the middle of project start crying and asking for more money because of some reason. So if it can goes in one direction why not opposite?

[@Jackzuk]

Im not a tradesman so dont know why i watched this but i watch all your videos from a DIYer’s POV. I did relate to this tho as I was effected by the liquidated ltd company con as a customer. I was left 20k in the red and homeless for 4 months, it wasn’t the thought of not been sitting on a deck chair that ate me up but rather I had let my newborn down and what I could of spent that 20k to better his future/life, it broke my heart, a grown man holding his baby and telling him sorry I’ve let you down with a tear in my eye. I understand why they made it so directors dont have to fear of losing their homes etc but what its allowed some of them to do others legally is not right. Glad I watched this as I never really considered that traders are treated just as badly. Keep the good work up fellas!!

[@bikerchrisukk]

Anyone starting up self-employed or even some experienced ones, should watch this. It's a must, simple as that. Good job guys.

[@fenixfp40]

I've spent 40 years in building, predomenantly in domestics and have been knocked twice. Trust cuts both ways and I knew within 10mins of meeting a customer whether I wanted to work for them or not. Example: If a potential customer tells you "I've had 3 builders in and had nothing but trouble", you don't want to be the 4th. I've always followed my gut instinct and still do.

[@greg4272]

Thats my no one rule for me as well.

[@flyingjackcarpentry9394]

I learnt that the hard way. My old college mate took on a big skirting/arcatrave job which included changing door hinges to parliament hinges. He asked if I could do for him. I agreed as I was just getting started and willing to do anything. He'd measured up and arranged all materials. When I arrived I noticed that it had been partly done. I thought, maybe they'd pissed off a previous tradesman. I didn't say anything, I just cracked on. Customers hung over my shoulder all day. I was proud of the job I did Especially replacing the hinges.... I even joked with the customer, who was watching, "look at that, can't get better than perfection".. He laughed and agreed. When I left they decided I'd damaged all the doors and refused to pay my mate for my service. My mate was good enough to take it on the chin and pay me . But since we've been super weary of taking on jobs like that. Fair enough there are some cowboys out there who cut and run with the money. But I reckon there's more scheming cowboy customers.

[@johnriggs4929]

50 years here. And the worst, by far, time for me was the early 80's recession. I was asked to give a price for fitting a new door. I worked the price out on the spot (but carefully,) and after supplying the door and ironmongery, I would have made just under £30, which even at that time was poor, but I was short of work just like everyone else at that terrible time. The guy said "Oh, OK..." and took a piece of paper from behind the clock on the fireplace. On that piece of paper he had at least ten joiners' names, some of which I knew, with their price on. He wrote my price next to my name and promised to call me later. I'd already decided before I got back home, not to take the job. At quarter to TWELVE that evening, he phoned me. According to him, he wanted me to do the job - but there was just one guy who was a bit cheaper. Would I drop my price? Unbelievable. Thankfully, that type are few and far between.

[@grahambiffen1202]

I’ve been 43 years in the trade I couldn’t put it better

[@grahambiffen1202]

You got my thoughts exactly I’ve been 42 years in the trade and never been knocked through the same policy a you your spot on

[@rollingpuck]

Too much wisdom here. Roger is a national treasure.( posting from the US).

[@craigperkins5339]

I feel like I’m sat in a pub aving a pint with a few mates watching you two. Great talks guys, thanks!!

[@TomTomTomTom538]

But without the black eye

[@chrisanderson8578]

Since I saw Robin working on them old extension videos it's great to see him on the channel more often. Damn skilled carpenter.

[@MrKongatthegates]

This is more valuable than gold for a few of us out here. These are going to be classic videos and its a great public service you are doing. Cheers and best wishes for you guys

[@SkillBuilder]

Thanks Joshua. We just need people to share them among their fellow trades and self-employed.

[@jag251080]

I made and fitted some alcove units for a foreign couple in London , the whole time I was fitting them the wife was in the kitchen cooking , well I finished the job and they where chuffed to bits I hoover up and was ready to get paid and leave , I didn’t realise the whole time the wife was cooking a meal so we could all sit down and have dinner together at the end of the day 🤷🏻‍♂️ I’ve never known anything like it they where such a lovely couple that worked in mental health and we ended up having a really deep chat about the topic I didn’t leave till about 9pm , lovely people , lovely culture , lovely clients/friends

[@Blitterbug]

Wow, I was waiting for a sting in the tail on that one! Great result.

[@wittywoo9559]

I'd a same experience doing plumbing for an indian couple here in Dublin , it was a lovely experience 😊

[@paulbackhard6315]

I fitted some alcove cupboards for a couple in London and he wouldn’t pay me as “ I didn’t ask you to do that my wife doesn’t have the authority to get builders in “ 😢🤦‍♂️

[@wittywoo9559]

@@paulbackhard6315 I always go to the woman cause shes usually wears the trousers 😆

[@andrewward791]

Really enjoyed your video,thank you. After 46 years in the building game I can relate to every thing you discussed

[@grahambiffen1202]

And me carnt believe we do it 😀

[@Mister_G]

Gents: I'm not a tradesman, but this series is pure gold for anyone contemplating running their own business. Please keep going.

[@craigbone9231]

Great chat guy's. Yeah i had one i remember when i started out self employed 18 years ago. I was fitting a kitchen for the parents of this couple. I had written everything up from start to finish including the number of rows of wall tiles and where they would finish and at the end of the job met them at the property and was praised and thanked for the good job. The daughter said she would drop the payment off. Two weeks later no payment. So i contacted and she said she wanted extra tiling at no extra cost. This went on for a couple of days and in the end i did those for free but wanted the payment before i carried out anymore work. It was an i opener early on in business.

[@garybrown5500]

Great advice thanks. I'm a self employed mechanic & I expect payment before the car gets driven away. This isn't always the case so I often take the security wheel nut tool from the car & hold on to it until they return with payment. Then I just produce it & say "by the way I almost forgot I left this on the bench".Then if they don't pay I can sell it back to them when they are on the side of the road with a puncture if I can be bothered to answer the phone ;)

[@Rob-Bishop]

I loved listening to this, and found myself nodding as you were talking about getting knocked, people re negotiating after the job had been done, and the differences culturally. I’m a musician, not trade, and yet so many of the same things happen across both industries (all industries probably). Knowing your worth as Robin mentioned is vital. Gigging in the U.K. can be abit of a hard slog, with some audiences being more receptive than other, and Robins story about sitting down at the dinner table with the family even though he had said he wasn’t going to do the job, reminded me of being in Europe where a whole community had clubbed together and paid for British bands to go over and perform for them. Then after they would all invite you back and have dinner and drinks - amazing experience and such an eye opener to how they appreciate musicians compared to the U.K.. I once had a student who came to me (knowing my fee for the lesson) and then afterwards told me he was going to pay me £20 less because “the guy down the road is cheaper” 🤣 I’m really loving these videos!

[@star-ed7fj]

Hello Chap's up there, am a small tradesmen Kosovan born and now proud British citizen living in UK for 20 years am sharing my experience and trying not to be rude am just telling the truth and my experience here in UK I came 16 years old like a child and worked in London almost every where, I never ever have had a bad experience with an English man even sometimes I got a tip on top of my wages, foreigners they are ones always complaining about the money on the end ,thanks for sharing this with us I appreciate your time and effort

[@johndaniells4440]

Cracking discussion. Real eye opener for those, like me, who aren't self employed and just take it for granted that the money goes in the bank at the end of the month.

[@designbuild-northamptonbui7908]

Very very true , you give a customer a price and you say it might take 3 days and you work you ass off and do it in 1 ! Then they say you have earned too much for that day ...but what would happen if it took 4 , you wouldn't ask for more !!!

[@Blitterbug]

Quotes are tough sometimes. I try to not finish too soon if things go unexpectedly well, because clients can feel you overquoted. I charge by the hour and my current tactic is to deliberately underquote the time on some big jobs but tell them it's capped regardless of any overs I have to do. I do lose a little money that way but have gained many, many customers by recommendation.

[@stumetallicafan]

What great videos lads ,so helpful. I had an experience a few yrs ago where the guy I was working for , not the client but the company had kept back 2 invoices totalling about £ 5k . Was running into 4or 5 months he was on stop at builders merchants too. I agreed to finish job and even got materials on my account . He promised I would then get paid . How wrong was I . Terrible time was at Christmas for myself and family and my father in law was dying , which the guy knew of and shortly after my father in law died . The bastard still didn't pay . Anyway my wife done an online summons application and we put it to local court house . ( small fee to pay but this was payed back ) He was to receive summons by recorded delivery . Let's just say he was a bit upset when he received it . Got payed within two weeks and he avoided going to court . On some respects not great at time but a valuable lesson learned .

[@flowergrowersmith449]

I've just had earthmoving and concreting done and paid the guys the next day. As soon as the jobs done - PAID! I feel for you here - this sucks.

[@pr777999]

this was golden could have listened for hours ......if all the small builders got together under one brand they could put money in a pot to have expert legal advice etc . something like a builders co-operative company ...if we stick together and help each-other instead of racing to the bottom all the better

[@BischBaschBosch]

Interesting idea. Particularly to help those just starting out by giving them legal resources to chase payment. We did have UCATT which has now merged with Unite union. Not sure what they can do for sole traders but they have helped sub contractors get their dues on large projects previously.

[@martinbracken9808]

Great video I’ve been knocked a few times now I always ask for all materials money before starting a job and always weekly payment.if the client can’t pay materials up front I walk away it’s a bad sign.

[@johnbunyan5834]

As a customer, I really enjoyed this podcast. I am now hooked on watching the whole series. Decades ago, if my job was several weeks' work and involved a lot of costly materials, I would offer stage payments, immediately agreeing a price. I always paid in cash. These days, it's bank transfers as they are leaving. I trust the workman to come and sort out any problems that appear afterwards. I struggle to remember a job that did require rectification.

[@brummiesteve590]

I once had a customer try to stiff me for 15% of landscaping job, because her friend said thats how much it should have cost. She agreed quote and signed contract. But once work finished she wanted to discuss price. She sent cheque for job less 15% even thou we agreed cash. So once money cleared in my account, I went back and removed block paving sand and gravel as not paid for. She tried the court crap, until her solicitor read contract and pricing list. So I now ask 50% up front for materials and labour. Not been stiffed since. Great video lads.

[@benrichards1]

Worked for a guy in London subcontracting on a school doing the electrics. Tried to knock me, even though he just bought a Mercedes in cash. Stopped taking my calls and his wife told me he had gone abroad, which was bollocks. Ended up turning up at his wife's place of employment (high flying lawyer), asking if I could get her husbands new number. A grunt like me walking around the law firms reception must have made an impression. Got paid within the hour. Funny that.

[@kennethmunnoch1493]

Did a furnishing job many years ago as subcontractor. The client went bust and the receiver was trying to sell the place. They asked us to go on site and do a little bit of snagging. I arrived and when no one was watching I hid the furniture above the suspended ceilings then left. One hour later the receiver was on the phone going ballistic. They couldn’t work out how we got the furniture past security. In the end the receiver paid us for the goods. A rare triumph.

[@AngelAsylum78]

Perfect advise! I list my estimates out with a %deposit , payment plan. If my potential customer queries my deposit then I explain it’s for part materials and not for the full amount (so we are both invested in the project) it reassures them(imho that you aren’t a cowboy). I also use paypal for my invoices and card reader. This channel is fantastic, loads of great content and bang on the money.👍

[@redrockliving2354]

Roger, you're a legend for bringing it up so carefully. Haggle first, agree and then pay!

[@Smitch2909]

Another great video and as a very small time freelance architect very interesting to hear from your side. Having the cost of materials 'at risk' so to speak must be quite worrying. Recently had to chase an invoice with 30 day payment terms over 2 months overdue the payment due date (only for 350 quid) for the first time ever and it was really stressful for me. I persevered and was paid in the end. Felt like a real insult when the work was prompt and completed to the word of the fee proposal- I had also spent many extra hours on the project accommodating changes. Generally have really delightful clients but this was a developer who was really trying his luck. After copying in the directors listed on companies house to requests for payment I finally got a call back. Hope I don't have to do it again but definitely learnt something. Love your videos so much and always recommending you to colleagues- huge fan!

[@SkillBuilder]

That is interesting to hear that it is not just builders who suffer this. I suppose the answer is to get the money before you submit the final drawing but maybe the developer has serious cash flow problems.

[@redrockliving2354]

Mr. Clevett & Roger, you are legends, thank you for your frank conversation and inside knowledge. Being doing this for 20 years and finally a back to our trades! Pete

[@LifeWorkRestPlay]

Well done guys, after being in business for nearly 30 years I can relate to all your examples, I even once had a guy that we bent over backwards for and he was still complaining until I asked what his problem was and he simply said he liked to argue! I think the key is managing expectations & having a credit card machine that works via a mobile phone😉

[@curtis24-7]

Another excellent podcast! Please keep them coming. The industry needs this.

[@geza96]

I started first up giving 15 days on invoices but now it’s just payment on receipt. It seems to be better.

[@Blitterbug]

Yes, when I first went self employed this was hard for me to do but tried to stick to payment on completion. Some clients did try the 'can I post you a cheque' and I'd say 95% of those actually arrived. The rest I wrote off.

[@sfox85]

Great video. Regarding the point at 24:40 about rejecting a partial payment is correct. An offer from the customer is not binding unless you accept it. If you do accept the partial sum, you can protect your position by writing to the customer outlining your intention to keep the money as part payment and will continue to claim the full amount owed. This covers you. If you had no agreement in writing (e.g small domestic building work) it could be argued in court that there was acceptance in your actions in agreeing to the part payment and that the customer is making best efforts to settle. Problem is you may not be able to seek the full and final amount. Another thing you could do to protect yourself is a no waiver clause, which basically means you can accept part “performance” (payment) without losing your other rights. All depends on how formal you want to be with the customer but could practice to have a template of terms for them to sign.

[@ukconstruction]

Thank you so much for clarifying this point, it is extremely helpful to me and our loyal veiwers, really helpful statement, many thanks again!

[@BischBaschBosch]

What Robin mentioned around 13:00 lol. Had that last year. Customer i made alcove units and replaced doors and frames for told me everythings pissed so were withholding final payment. See, where I'd gone wrong was building and installing everything square and true. It was the rest of the house that was on the wonk! Something I had made clear before starting btw, showing them with levels etc what to expect and mentioned we could suspend a new ceiling but they didn't want the extra cost nor lose the "character". They did eventually pay but it's a shame because we were very pleased with what was quite a tricky job, but they were unhappy and payed grudgingly. I never set out to leave a customer feeling like that. A real downer.

[@BODGE71]

I find that some customers are absolutely clueless and have unrealistic expectations, even after you have explained the details to them, such as the wonky walls. I just don't think that some customers take in what you say when you do the survey and are just focused on how the finished product will look. If reality doesn't meet expectations then they end up being disappointed so I think roger and robins ideas of detailing everything in writing is a good idea. I do have a confession to make - I never give a detailed estimate highlighting the wonky walls etc, and so far, touch wood we've never had a problem with customers. Now that I've said that ...……...

[@lucascsmith]

I'm an actor and photographer chaps - it's the same for us! Loving the channel and your podcasts - very helpful for my first house renovation!

[@tmwoodhams]

This is an excellent series, there's a lot to listen to. This sort of info should be taught in colleges - how to protect yourself and be professional. I started by myself last year and when you guys started episode 1 on pricing I thought "great, this is what I've been looking for". I don't have "cash" flow as some jobs fell through over Christmas so I've had no choice but to specify that all materials are payable upon receipt. I have been doing stage payments though for my labour and subcontractors if I have them. From now on I will be stating that I want weekly payments. I think that is a great idea Robin to not charge the % on subbies but charge a management fee as part of the your contract, and being clear about what you charge. If someone is not willing to pay you for your service then they can manage it themselves. It's not easy to get the whole job to "flow".

[@jag251080]

Loved the chat guys , sometimes were treated like scum of the earth because were dressed like a builder , one thing I’ve learnt is no matter how nice the client is you always see a completely different side of people when it comes to money , always be on the ball regarding money , always make the client aware of surprises on the job ie bad existing work you need to work with , always be open and honest if you need to nip of to earn extra cash tell the client , honesty honesty honesty you can’t go wrong if your honest and upfront with people

[@rjjoiner1]

Great work lads - really enjoying your videos . I work on my own most of the time , so its good to hear other people talking and thinking how I think . One thing I did years ago with a bad payer was go to the neighbours house and ask them if their next door neighbour was on holiday ( knowing full well they weren't ) . They said " no , I don't think so , why ? " , and I told them I was waiting to be paid for a job , but couldn't get any reply from them ... The payment arrived a couple of days later ! - no one wants their neighbours knowing you owe people money do they ? . It's a handy trick to have in the toolbox int it ? . Looking forward to more stories .

[@SkillBuilder]

That is a really good tip. Tell the neighbours and they tell the whole street.

[@rusrus29]

Great video guys!!! Lets face it.. we've all had our fair share off problems with customers... One thing i'd like to say is.."ALWAYS communicate via email -After the initial phone in person chat.. Record everything via the mobile phone recording device if the project is huge and you need to relay the info back onto paper/email . I have found that 99% clients customers love "Tradesmans Professionalism", they respect you more if everything is detailed and bullet pointed on a basic/detailed works contract.. After all, it will help you in the long run and save you any trouble if it arises.. Plus,... take photos off the work at every point and stage off the works and put it into specific folders on a computer database /folder.. If you're a sole trader or a company get it right, first time !

[@drewt6235]

Gentlemen, thank you for the advice, knowledge and expertise!! It’s well appreciated.

[@colin6285]

Someone once gave me cheque for £2k which bounced... A pal in the banking system told me to represent the bounced cheque at payees bank. (where the account is actually registered) At the end of that working day if there's sufficient funds (money) in the account the Bank are beholden to settle the debt... It worked a treat for me... The payees went ballistic when they found out. Just thought this might help someone.

[@thomascoyne157]

Very good podcast enjoy it. I did work for a small building company as a driver labourer using my own car and was not for the mileage money only used to go round and do repairs pubs many years ago 👍👍👍👍

[@rabday9334]

this is the best converstion i have seen on youtube. if i was any good with wrighting contrackets i wood not be a joiner of 32 years

[@contax50mm]

I work as a photographer retoucher and all of these things apply when freelancing. No matter the business i believe. Great series

[@MarkGarth]

Don't be bothered by the terminally offended. Everything you have said is perfectly accurate. Great video.

[@jayofman]

Thanks guys I really enjoyed your sharing of experience on a subject that can effect all of us. Working together instead of competing. I don't see working together as half the renumeration I view as twice the resources.

[@JohnSmith-dr9vl]

16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.

[@claudioscola]

I'm a customer rather than trade. Interesting insight and not the first time I've heard a solicitor screw a tradesman in this way. Great channel.

[@paulhicks451]

Roger and Robin, I enjoy all your shows including tool reviews. Everything you have discussed sounds all too familiar. You guys have the same mindset I do which is, "it's easier to do it right the first time". Keep up the great work and never compromise quality over quantity.

[@philipberry294]

The contrast between the US market & yours is indistinguishable... And it instills me with so much joy to know you suffer the same ales! Luv this channel so much!!!!

[@SkillBuilder]

Thanks Phil We woud love to have more American viewers. I have to say it feels to us as if you will soon be fighting another civil war. Let's hope it all calms down over there. There is so much to lose.

[@philipberry294]

@@SkillBuilder Well I tell anyone who will listen, that I think would get a kick out of it, to check you guys out! But yes. Times are tough around here with no real leadership & a generation of Nitwits running a muck every day is a new challenge. But you know us Americans. We have no problem cutting off our nose despite our face at the drop of a hat! On a serious note, Civil War is a real threat & I'm deeply worried for my kids. Pray for us!

[@chrisskinner4434]

About 15 years ago I re-built the back wall of a house for a customer, everything went as it should and he was happy with the brick match, anyway at the end of the job, he didn't want to pay, he said the problem was he had got another builder to come round and look at the work and the other builder had told him I'd built the wall and the brick work was ok but I'd built it without putting wall ties in or any DPC. He wasn't for telling me who the other builder was apart from a guy his mate knew and he couldn't remember his name, I pushed him on it explaining that I wanted to get to know this guy because for him to be able to see the wall ties and damp, other than knocking bricks out he must have X-ray vision. He soon paid up without any more fuss.

[@SkillBuilder]

They make me so angry. A friend of a friend, I can't remember his name says this and that. What crap. It is an insult to your intelligence. I am glad you go paid.

[@barrisakb1]

Such an entertaining and informative video, as always. Better than watching the telly.

[@lrdisco2005]

There is a fundamental lack of trust between trade and the public, and there are villains on both sides. My suggestion would be an escrow arrangement binding to both parties, so if the job is done you get paid, and if the trade walks off the customer is not out of pocket. It would need oversight, but once it was established it could take the worry out of getting paid.

[@browney89]

Hello guys, just thought after months of watching I owed you a comment. I'm just a regular member of the public. I bought my first property 2 years ago (188 terraced house) I would absolutely never ever dream about asking a tradesman to come out to my house and quote for a job and then never having the ability to pay them.

[@tonywebb9909]

It is a culture thing, I worked 17 years in London with constant payment issues and vat avoidance. Then I worked the next 17 years in Dublin Ireland and got a completely different experience. With the exception of some builders the people here have more respect for tradespeople. It might be a class thing also in some cases

[@luiseEllen]

Great video. Domestic customers should see this side of things for better understanding of how it is for the trades. I'm just helping my builder take a previous customer to the small claims court. Poor guy just wants to do his building work and can't be bothered with all the paperwork. You always hear about the bad builders (who are out there for sure) but it's not all one way. Another builder of mine was well and truly done over when he was young and new to the game. And don't get me started on the 'while your here' jobs that customers think it's okay to get the trades person to do for nothing! Would I get away with it when I go for a haircut, "while I'm here can I just have a full head of highlights for free"... don't think so!

[@Kdacarp]

I try my best to order all materials that I need for the job. Then give the list to the client and tell them to pay the Marchant direct. Works quite well for me that way

[@lanceberry1626]

Your not able to make your cut on materials this way, add abit on your materials , as you’ve had to run around to get them ,

[@jimbrown8399]

The agreed price is what it is !. As a Chippie, if I can complete the job quicker, good on me, I don't charge any extra if the job blows out. There is also the issue of tools that may break or specialised tools you need to purchase, that all adds to the cost of the job. There are so many variables that only you are aware of & that the customer isn't, this is a part of Contracting. I love watching & listening to your experiences.

[@greg4272]

I loved the stories about being fed and treated welcome by customers! I was a joiner in Hungray, working for private clients, and I had similar experiences. There was a family I used to do several projects during a 10 year period, so I became a sort of friends with them. When my car broke down, they offered me the wife's car who was a bank director. So I had to go into the bank, to the director to get the keys, then transport the material and drive back the car to the fancy bank garage. Other times their daughter had homework for school, and they asked me to brief her on the subject, knowing I had insite. Other times when I was working at their home, the wife called the children to eat, as usual, and I was added to the list. Other time they were out for some days, so I was allowed to live in the house while doing their job. There was another customer, a Jewish couple with a boy. I only seen them twice, yet while I was working at their home the mother wanted to leave for hours, so she asked me to babysit their boy for the time! The funny outcome was when the parents came home, that their Jewish boy announced, he wants to be a joiner!

[@SkillBuilder]

It is amazing how many people you meet who are very happy to dump their kids on you. I am not sure I would be that happy with it now but I operated in an age where Jimmy Saville was seen as trustworthy, a friend of Margaret Thatcher. What could possibly go wrong?

[@benchippy8039]

Possibly the best advice I’ve heard on the internet

[@DPJOINERY]

The only true advice on the net too! 😀

[@DPJOINERY]

The only true advice on the internet too! 😀

[@tufty5801]

Great watch this! This is the reason why I haven’t really started my own business and just stuck with a salaried job and do the odd bit here and there. Great advice this though! More vids to watch!

[@MattCharlie88]

Just watching this whilst working (ironically I work as a paralegal in debt collection). In answer to your question about not accepting part payment (25mins in), I can confirm this is a bit of a myth. Just because someone sends you an amount, this does not constitute an agreement between the parties for instalments. When doing debt collection activities, there are strict protocols and procedures you have to follow to ensure that the process is fair. The best advice is to do everything by writing (can be email, text, or whatsapp, but my personal preference is email). If you have telephone conversations, then follow it up by email confirming what was discussed and keep records of this (something along the lines of, "following our earlier telephone conversation, I write to confirm that....."). If you are going to go down the legal route, then a solicitor will handle the pre-claim letter for you and appropriate time lines (these differ between consumers and non-consumers). If you are going to do it yourself through MCOL, then make sure your letter before action is sent via first class post. Make your particulars of claim as detailed as you can. This should include details on the work you have done, reference any invoices, quotes given and the dates you quoted. Also reference if the claim is as per a contract and what date that contract was signed/agreed to and a chronological timeline of events. Check CPR rule 16.4 if in doubt, as this details what needs to be in there. Like most things, if you have done the right things upfront, such as having an agreed scope of works/contract/quotations etc it will make things much easier for you in the court process.

[@antonoat]

Not paying, providing the work has been done to a satisfactory standard is theft nothing less. The law needs to be changed to protect tradesman. Getting paid for work and materials weekly surely is the best way forward! This channel is becoming highly addictive, great to hear your experiences.

[@brianfield792]

I've seen hundreds of videos on KZbin, this has got to be the best I've ever seen,brilliant stuff,

[@JohnSmith-dr9vl]

16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.

[@leerolfe5332]

These podcasts truly are great! Well done fellas ;)

[@paulcollins8296]

Very interesting. It is my understanding that both the builder and the customer have a statutory right to have a building dispute to be resolved by adjudication. This stems from the days of Mrs Thatcher when small building contractors could not get paid. The result is that the law requires the bill to be paid first and then the customer has to sue to recover any loss resulting from bad worksmanship. I have seen a good customer put in a terrible position by a rouge builder. Drains that flowed up hill, electrics that were dangerous and not certified and by law the customer had to pay for the whole job and did not have the money to recover their losses by suing the builder. The building company had legal expenses insurance and an expensive law firm. A big education to me and a big shock.

[@pauldunn1164]

Thats what i love about this channel. Speak how it is and covering the subjects people wana hear about. Keep up the good work.

[@jacko7488]

Absolute legends. Keep the podcasts coming

[@stevek5856]

In 40 odd years in the building trade, to be fair, I’ve not had too many issues. Probably because I proudly had a reputation as a great tradesman, I still do now although slower. More importantly though, I also had a reputation as somebody not to upset, and certainly never to mess around with payments with. So, it worked well, they all got a great job done, and I got paid. That’s how it should be, the building game is hard enough, without time wasters and pee takers.

[@darrenroche9225]

Still owed thousands off a job after been signed off by the engineer and snag list done , we even paid for their granite work top because they had no money to get it , so we paid , now it's waiting for bank and all usual crap , it's very frustrating and can be depressing

[@tritonmemnon5801]

We have made comments before, so this is a simple observation. We are 24 years senior to Robin. Those 24 years here in the USA and overseas have given us a wide range of opportunities and risks. The USA has a very real history of price discrimination for tradespersons. When we started out Women in some fields where a rarity. We have seen an influx of Irish, Polish, Chinese, Mexican, Italians or others that are used to lower a price point for a trade or skill. One of the best timber framers we ever worked with was a fellow from Belize. He could see a job figure the span, the post size and the weight calculations to a finite point. But he was paid at least 20-30% less than the young kid who had only been trained at "Yesterday Builders" or some such school for the trades. Licenses for Architecture, Engineering, Electricians are corrupt here in the USA. But at least these are basic standards for the craftsperson or the licensed professional. Organization and sharing work experiences, I have used to encourage and forewarn the younger workers. Keep up the good work gentlemen!

[@alanmooney]

What a Ripper video!!! Well done Robin & Rodger great subject to address!!!

[@danielmurphy1034]

This is super valuable thanks . Pricing is a mystery to me, I’ve moved to Uk from Ireland/New Zealand where I mostly worked for great crews, and to maintain a flexible lifestyle I’ve gone self employed as a carpenter. I charge hourly and people are happy as I try to do the best job possible, but it’s a fools game, with expenses it’s hard to make actual profit, actually it’s impossible. I seem to end up with lots of retro fitting doors in old houses, skirtings, arcs, and sometimes some renovation type work, very fiddly stuff, a real headache to price I think. I’d imagine new build stuff is much easier to price.

[@twig3288]

It would be nice if there were a business to act as an intermediate escrow type arrangement where a deposit could be made similar to a rental deposit to cover non payment, this would also provide comfort to the customer because the escrow company could refuse to handle deposits for cowboy builders. Any disputes could be handled by an arbitration panel of people with appropriate credentials.

[@neildavehoward4948]

This happens in Aussie where builders are requird to pay a percentage of the project value into a contractors payment guarantee fund administered by an independant body

[@CheckFred]

So pleased you brought up the 'culture' problem. Most people are frightened to death to speak up about it, but it's true, you can come 'really' unstuck unless you 'do' get a contract signed at the start with a 'No Haggle' clause CLEARLY stated. One of the favourite things they do is counting the hours and minutes you've 'physically worked' on the job. They then calculate it up at a rate that 'they' think you should be working for, and will ONLY pay that amount. It's then time to remind them you're more than willing to 'lose' another Grand to employ 'other' services which will visit them when they 'least expect it' and extract the money in due course ...... It almost always works, especially with the #CowboyCustomer :-)

[@Cruner62]

Roger - this may help you with this - I ran small transport business and we did a lot of subcontract work. One other contractor was known to be a bit late on paying and this got silly with extended time until it reached 5 months we were carrying a big overdraft. Others we know were starting to take him to court ( we never did) when it came to the court hearing he paid them up on the court date. They ended up with added costs. When his account reached £5000 he went into administration but I received a envelope with all cash paid up - the others got nothing.

[@marcinm.7674]

I run domestic resin flooring and microcement company. I only work with clients who are prepared to pay 50% upon booking, 40% on day 3 of works, 10% 7 days after completion. Last year it saved my skin on 2 projects, where the contractors went belly up. Client always receives the terms of business.

[@psyskeptic9979]

I like the hilarious discussion at the end about which number the podcast is.

[@paul1962uk]

A “friend” is a plumber, he did a job for someone an not paid, eventually he went back after being mucked around for months, turned the stopcock off an filled the cavity with concrete!

[@AndrewNeilBaird]

I worked on renovating 3 bathrooms for the Cairns family who lived in a house in Fairmile head Edinburgh. Right from the start we had problems with my quote , for instance, I quoted 3 weeks to completely strip and rebuild with Ceramic tiles . They went and bought porcelain tiles and expected it to be done in the same timeframe for the same price . The son and daughter went and used the payment card 4 times at the local cashline to take £2000 , and said it was me . They asked for extra work , IE extend one of the en-suite bathrooms through the wall into the built in wardrobes of the adjacent bedroom to increase the shower enclosure by 50% and wouldn't pay for that either . So at the end of the job I was robbed of 2grand by theft done by their children. And an extra week's work . And they had the cheek to ask for money off due to the stress of it taking the extra week . So , beware when you have to deal with any family bearing that surname . I will reveal their full names and current address in private to anyone who has legitimate concerns privately.

[@lazylad9064]

Twenty odd years ago was a one man operation. Got knocked on a big job ended up having sell my van and pack in. I'm now an employee now. Let some one else have the stress.

[@jewelcitizen2567]

Do Not Ever Knock Roger! 08:00 “I know who you are I know where you live I know you are working for your wife I don’t have my money But what I do have is a very particular set of Fax machines Fax machines that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you pay up now that’ll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you But if you don’t, I will look for you I will find you and I will take your BMW”...

[@johndaniells4440]

And I will take your BMW...but first I'll set my deck chair up outside your gaff and sit in my underpants harassing your neighbours.

[@jewelcitizen2567]

Skill Builder Roger you’re the man sir. Great podcast! Keep em coming...

[@johndaniells4440]

Agreed jewel.

[@aiyede2010]

Great content. On cultural issues, why are we so scared to discuss it as long as it comes from good mind and understanding. I learnt a lot from this podcast, keep it going guys.

[@willevans1247]

This particular subject needs to be called cowboy clients ,an it does happen ,I’ve had many people try it on An it’s always educated people who think your stupid because your a trades man,an sometimes it rich people who can be very tight ,seen all types,very glad your covering this gents 👍👍👍

[@JohnSmith-dr9vl]

16.12.19. Time 18.25. UTUBE PODCAST 4. DEBTS.Place Hants. Can someone get us out of this death trap. This ipayments video is very good stuff. Terrific. Just as thrilling as the one on the musician who escaped the Scientology org in US.And the Vids by the more doubtful Leah Rimini. As ex Scientologists we feel sore cos that org loked after us at St Hill.Wish we could finf someone like the two wonderful builders. this. Been looking for ten yrs and still the place is collapsing. (Hats). Dont ever live in this area.Greed has reached epidemic levels ans is 5 times worse than London. The word community exists either in brain dead groups or on the computer. Have been asked 300 pounds for trimming a 30 ft hedge. We never knocked anyone but plenty people did it to us incl a firm who stole all our tools whilst I had legionairs disease.. That was in SW18. Another builder hid tghe fact the plumbing was not installed by fitting the bath panels in place. 5Yrs later we experienced Police attacks cos some of our clients weho came to us in desperation blew the whistle on the 20 yrs of so called Mental Health treatment which in fact needed 7 hours. Some of the clients were near to death after NHS and Private help viua th corrupt private ins schemes. We were told not to continue the work cos of investments and funding provided via private insurance and the charities like Sane. Mind. Ag UK and so on. The issue is now the indictment manslaughter because 30000 people have died over 30 yrs. Also imolicated is- HM courts like Old Baily etc. HM Bar Council HM CPS. HM Lieutenancy. HM Coroners. HM Houses Of Commons and Lords. HM Princes Trust. HM Police. HM Home Office inch May and Rudd. Entire meia incl BBC and Local Press system. We bow indict also 20 Universities at least. he students being clueless or on drugs. The police have caused huge amounts of deaths but press and HM Coroners protect them. We were told by the victims to not protect them or expose what is going on because the MH system is propped up by the Royals and the penalty for trying to get reform would be death. At the time we thought cant be. Ask us now. There was no election because of scams going on at Electoral Commission and their pals at Local Govr. The local govr told us this- If theres anything wrong with LC then the public have to pay for a lawyer. No response from any LG even re Council Tax. May lives at Sonning right in the middle of the most corrupt police area Thames Valey and they wont respond nor will 40 Councillors in Bucks. Camers constituency office and his funder chadlington wont reply. Face book are destroying any mails which could topple the establ. Yahoo tried the same. All our websites are destroyed. Out of the blue we were told this- Strengthen the locks on doors and windows because someone wants to stop yiur work. The advisor was met miles from where we live and we had no conection with him previous not even a car reg number. Three months after the attacks started. We swar the above text is fact truth reality. Papers incl Mail. Mirror. Guardiam Scotsman Manch Even News and so on.. So these builders think they got probs. But neverthe less we support them On the face of it. God help us cos mainstream religion is part of the scandle (ask). God help us.

[@highdownmartin]

How dyou think they got so rich?

[@bengoymer5702]

Another good podcast really enjoying them keep up the good work

[@huwjones519]

Always get material paid in full when delivered, always agree day work rates for alterations prior to start, always get paid each week and get a penalty fee for late payment of 5% per day, stop all work if not paid, cost of delay to be day work rate plus late fee, get a contract and make it legal. It’s not worth doing if you are at risk.

[@charleselkins4546]

I am not a contractor or carpenter but I find your videos entertaining and informative. I agree with you completely about modern limited companies or corporations. Of course economists, being the absolute geniuses we all know they are, would say that the invention of the limited liability enterprise was a major reason why the world has greatly prospered in the past century and a quarter. ("Prospered" might be a strong word given two world wars, the rise of communism, and multiple pandemics.) In a nutshell they are creations of the 20th century that have been, in my opinion, the cause of so much of the strife and destruction across the world. A limited liability enterprise, when controlled by amoral or immoral psychopathic corporate executives, seems to me to be ideally (intentionally?) designed to cheat and steal without consequence. Sort of like you describe it in your example of what you felt was intentional bankruptcy fraud used against you.

[@craiguddstromcarpentry7605]

Great advice guys, I 100% agree on payment for materials before starting the job, a bit of piece of mind

[@robertplatt1379]

always a pleasure to listen in on you guys thanks

[@mathewcarpenter9368]

Love your inputs and thoughts guys,your spot on . I run my own building firm and have come across a few that don't want to pay . If your in the game long enough I think everyone at some point will cross paths with someone that doesn't want to pay . Long story short it's experience and learning from mistakes with regards to wording and covering yourself regarding payment . Great vid guys your bang on 👍

[@Hendrikovski]

@24:48 Robin was referencing the concept of 'credibility' here. It goes like this: Client A has hired Contractor B. Client A is behind on payment, and owes £50,000 to Contractor B. He says to Contractor B, "Look mate, I can front you £25,000 right now, and will try to pay the rest later this week." Contractor B takes this money, banks it, and has a new faith in Client A, as they seem to 'pay debts'. However, what Client B is doing, is building credibility with Contractor B. The client is making it seem that he pays debt on-time, by making a partial payment. This is where the 'credibility' fun starts. A week goes by, and Client A requests for Contractor B to undertake £100,000 worth of work, to which Contractor B agrees to, as Client A has built credibility with him. Once Contractor B completes the £100,000 works, Client B does not pay him for it! This now leaves Contractor B £125,000 down in pocket, +£75,000 more in debt than he began with! Be careful out there! This is a concept prevalent in economics.

[@SkillBuilder]

You are so right, it is a snare laid by many people. We say "If the first payment is fast you will never get the last".

[@Hendrikovski]

@@SkillBuilder 🤣🤣 good one!

[@tonypoch]

I really want to take the plunge and become self employed but I’m having issues convincing my wife who always loots at the negatives! I work for the uk’s biggest supplier and maintainer of automatic doors, I know of loads of people who have made the changed to self employed and seem to be making a successful go at it. I know of one individual who shouldn’t even be maintaining a pair of shoes let alone a potential dangerous machine! I’ve only just seen these podcast, when I got in at 5:30 this morning and I think they will be useful so thanks for doing these!

[@silken522]

absolutely love your deck chair line roger thats amazing :D

[@teddybeargrylls6663]

A great conversation, lots of serious points that i can relate to, some humour thrown in as well. I love the debt collector bit. Good one guys

[@statedace3]

I'm a Union Tradesman here in the states for over 30 yrs.as a Painter/Drywall finisher and I value my time and know my trade well.And I'm just soaking this podcast in as everything thats being talked about has happened to myself one time or another.the worst of employers as i've found over the years are family.am I correct?. lol.

[@marksmith2412]

I had a client who kept adding extras to the job and refusing payment. I was saying to her I'm happy to do the extras but I'm not taking on any more until the original contract is honored. Her reply was always "not paying until the job is finished". I couldn't get through to her that the job was finished and what she was asking for now is another job to be done, she thought that because we were still on site it all counts as one job. No! That's why we list on the contract everything covered in that particular job. Once everything on the list is done the job is complete. If you want something done thats not listed, that's an "extra" and you need to speak to your contractor who will either create an addition to the contract with an adjusted price or it will be treated as a separate job. You can't just move the goal posts and refuse to pay.

[@richarddicktaylor219]

The contract law is Promissory Estoppel, the general rule being an agreement that a debtor (client) make a part payment of a debt will not satisfy the obligation to repay the entire debt. However, its the cost of enforcement & against a limited company good luck. The knife cuts both ways & there are plenty of unscrupulous builders and trades who say they have done a job to spec (esp with plumbing & electrics) where its in a wall, behind a skirting etc, and want full payment. The customer pays in full only to later find they have paid for a non-compliant job (I have pics of a plumber who held up newly installed uninsulated heating pipes with 'clips' made of folded sandpaper screwed around the pipes)

[@deanjohnstone6047]

Fantastic thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@atwr15]

Remember to include a clause about interest on late payments. I took a client to the small claims court for non payment. They were claiming poor workmanship on an ongoing maintenance contract. We were claiming the work in question wasn't in the contract. The judge ruled 50/50 but said they had been unfair in withholding two months payment so awarded us one month's payment plus interest which ended up more than the outstanding invoice.

[@zgpm7031]

That was a fantastic show guys. I look forward to the next one.

[@abskan4015]

Interesting. I'm of the opinion that the majority of people get paid after completion of a job. Whether that be public sector, working in a hospital or school or working privately. Unfortunately there are builders who have screwed over clients too by taking money upfront and running off. Personally speaking, there should a median service. Similar to a deposit schemes which client puts money in and is released as stage payments by the scheme as per your agreement. Any dispute can then be managed accordingly, similar to deposit scheme. Surprised it doesn't already exist.

[@quadcoptervision]

Thats good thinking

[@TheTraditionalGolfer]

What a great idea that is why has nobody thought of this before....you could be on to something there!!

[@SkillBuilder]

Abs I have heard people suggest that before and, to some extent, it works but it means everyone is starting out in a position of suspicion. It is so much better when everyone get along and it is a happy job.

[@worldadventureman]

In reality there would be so many problems trying to make that work. There are bonding companies that do a similar thing, but its a pretty big percentage of your job considering what they do, so now you are having to raise your price to cover the bonding costs. But in the small building business, you'd have to deal with the median service holding your money and trying to get it from them. They would have to have some way to make sure the work is done and to a proper standard, ( a client isn't going to want to take on that liability) they would have to have systems in place to get the money back from a contractor who if it later turned out hadn't done the work to a proper standard. They would have to be able to deal with so many disputes, it just wouldn't ever work on a small scale. In the end the answer is to properly gauge your clients and do an honest job at an honest cost. I've mentioned this before, but I actually make a big deal that most of my clients have ended up being good friends. I have some of them on my facebook from jobs i did 10, 20 years ago. Some of them even came to my wedding which didn't last as long as the relationship with the client!

[@abskan4015]

I guess it comes down to safeguarding and Reassurance Roger. Excellent Podcasts by the way. Worldadventureman - it isn't that complicated to be honest and I think clients would be willing to pay a little extra for peace of mind. Initially I was against the deposit scheme because I was of the opinion it gave too many rights to the tenants. However if you're organised you have little problems when disputes occur. The tradesmen who do sign up to such portals would probably end up getting more work. Just a thought. Setting it up is a different matter!

[@einfelder8262]

I see that the UK hasn't yet transported all the shysters to Aus - we've got plenty of them here as well :) I was self-employed for over 20 years and had only about 4 shysters in that time (I was good at vetting before doing anything). One private company owed me around $1200 and wouldn't pay - he claimed that I hadn't provided the services. Debt collector said if he owed me over $1500 other sure-fire avenues opened up for collection. I rang the a****hole again and surprisingly he booked me for another site visit - I agreed immediately (probably to his amazement), did the job, gave him an invoice same day taking his debt to over $1500. I rang the collector and had my money next day, along with an irate phone call. Gotya!!!! One other client was an accountant office for whom I built a server system overnight to suit a new tax thing he needed. B****ard wouldn't pay because one of 5 printers was not supported yet in the server system, not my fault. I sent my programmer in to apply the fix when it became available, with instruction to change the login password to the server. Next morning got an irate call - what's the password????? "Money" I replied, clunk, phone hung up. A few seconds later, phone call, that password doesn't work. "Yes it does - go to the bank, deposit cash (no cheque) into my account, and fax me the deposit slip, after which the actual password will be advised. Ex-client was not happy but was snookered, so did as instructed and I had my $4000 in my account in cash so no bounced cheque possible.