Sleuthing the Federal Gold Medal Match long range load recipe.

[@FuelTankerMan]

An OCW recipe. The Federal GMM is what inspired me to develop OCW years ago. I knew there had to be certain load recipes that work well in all (or nearly all) rifles chambered for them. Add an OCW charge to well made brass, use a good quality bullet and it'll do great. For those who have Federal GMM brass, the 41.7 or 41.8 grain charge of IMR 4064 may very well duplicate the factory load performance.

[@willjenkins6417]

Dan Newberry my O.C.D gets in the way of my A.D.D. Sometimes....

[@jonathankazarian9936]

I just bought some of the federal MK 316 Mod 0 175gr ammo and I took 2 of them apart to check the powder and the powder charge, I found the powder charge exactly at 42.1 grains of what looked like IMR 4064 and the OAL to be 2.814 for both of them.

[@johnnorman7708]

I've heard that Reloader 15 figured into some batches of US military 7.62 match ammo. As a propellant it's probably going to be very similar in performance to 4064. I know I sure like 4064 as a powder for mild to moderate hunting loads in .30-06 under 150 grain Hornady Interlock spire point bullets.

[@FuelTankerMan]

They did use RL15 in the M118LR load back in the late 90's, early 2000's... In LC brass, they started with 44.2 grains which I knew would be too hot, and wrote publicly about it. But of course the gov't doesn't listen to guys like me. :) They ended up dropping the charge to 43 to 43.1 grains with the 175's, and it worked very well.

[@johnnorman7708]

@@FuelTankerMan That's interesting. I've loaded a few test rounds of .300 Savage with Reloader 15 under 165 grain Hornady Spire Points. That load holds promise as a hunting load for .308's little brother. I think Reloader 15 is a pretty decent powder for those cases in that capacity range.

[@Wireman134]

@@FuelTankerMan But temp stability caused (RL15) it to be replaced.

[@charlierich9840]

Hi and thank you twice for your use of the word Uniformity. The only word any one else can ever come up with is 'consistent'. Great job and I like to see all the Lee stuff. Great job on the pod cast with Jim and Mike and the boys, I'm glad I found it. Peace.

[@FuelTankerMan]

Thank you for the feedback. Stay in touch! :)

[@ZeroBoostBuick]

45gr of Win. 748, Win. brass and WLR primers loaded to 2.79"ish is the perfect clone of the newer Winchester 308 Match... tho I load it a lil longer (2.805"ish if my memory is working, 0.010" jump). This load shoots better than FGMM,... I tried F210M and BR2 primers and WLR were more consistent with this load.

[@scottfreeman258]

If I think back to my day is at Fort Benning with the M 24 I’m pretty sure that the standard to which it was held was 1.1 MOA. Not an overly impressive qualification. There are much better combinations out there.

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

How far was “back in the day?” If you were using the M118SB I believe it, that was lackluster stuff.

[@farmerwayne1404]

What powder are you using in the 175 gr. Varget or Imr?? Ty much...

[@brucehamlin6960]

Dan, I know your video is a few years old, but I have found something different about the newer rounds of FGMM. I just pulled both the 168 and 175 FGMM rounds and found that "both" contain 42.9 grains of powder that looks more like IMR 4895 than IMR 4064. Have you looked at any of the newer FGMM loads? I am curious about their change and what powder I observed. I hope that no one takes my word on what the powder is, but it looks different than my IMR 4064.

[@dominik954]

Great video first time i watched it was about 8 years ago. I did that my self and got same results Today, march of 2023 i pulled two 175fgmm and to my surprise i found 39.4 and 34.3 of short and gray powder with is not imr4064. 🤔

[@dominik954]

In addition the overall length and ogive lenght varies by .010 “ between 5 rounds 😱

[@FuelTankerMan]

They're no doubt using a faster powder for the commercial (not military) load. Did you mean 39.5 and 39.3 grains (hopefully)... that could be AR-comp, at that charge level. ATK owns Alliant and Federal...and CCI... and Savage... and... :/

[@FuelTankerMan]

@@dominik954 those Sierra match bullets have some length variations due to the meplat... but they shoot very well. :)

[@mrcbrrr7484]

Why would this work only in federal brass vs lapua for example

[@FuelTankerMan]

Federal has pretty thick brass, and case internal volume is less than Lapua. Add .2 grains of powder to stay on the node with Lapua... use either 42.0 or 43.2 grains.

[@mrcbrrr7484]

@@FuelTankerMan ok .. thanks for replying and for your advice… are you saying to go up in .2 grains and not .5 ? Still learning about reloading so please forgive me if my questions sounds odd

[@WK5H780]

I wonder if Federal has changed something recently in the 175 GMM rounds. I pulled 5 of them yesterday, and the charges of powder were 40.4, 40.3, 40.4, 40.5, and 40.5. Didn't smell like 4064 - it really didn't have much smell at all, and neither does Reloader15 (that my nose could tell anyways). They are still hyping it to be 2,600fps, but, I can't any book data to support rx15 being able to do 2,600 at ~40.5gr?

[@FuelTankerMan]

Federal like all other big ammo makers will get occasional great deals on off lots of powder, so it could be a fast lot of something that didn't meet canister grade spec (the vaunted "proprietary" powder, yes). But as long as it shoots well, all is well. Federal is an ATK company, and would have in-house access to any of the Alliant powders, so I'd suspect one of those before anything else. They're using CFE223 or the 2000MR with the 185 grain Berger GMM load now. AR Comp could be another possibility in the charge level you found in that batch--if it's canister grade. I doubt it's doing 2600 fps from most rifles though...

[@WK5H780]

AR Comp seems to fit the bill better than the others, just going off their published data. Might have to pick up a lb this weekend and do some testing with it. Only reason I'm interested in this particular run of GMM, is that this box shot exceptionally well in my AR10. Would really like to work up a good load with the powder and bullet combo. Thanks for the help!

[@chuckfinley3152]

Brian Spence i just pulled some powder out of GMM 175 and mine were 42.5, it looked like 4064

[@TravisZeller-pd5lq]

Do you have an idea of what the hornady 140gr eld match 6.5 creedmoor load is?

[@FuelTankerMan]

The original load was 41.5 grains of H4350, in Hornady brass with a 140 AMAX. Any 140 grain bullet will work fine. Hornady actually printed that load recipe on the original 6.5 Creedmoor boxes of factory ammo.

[@dostalusmc979]

Could I sub Accurate 2495 for the IMR 4064 since the burn rate is close? I bought a bunch of 2495 when I was deployed to Afghan because it was all I could fined online. I could start out with 39gr and work my way up until I start pulling sub moa groups.

[@FuelTankerMan]

dostalusmc979 no... the 2495 is closer to IMR 4895. Instead, work around 40.8 grains in FC or LC brass, or go to 41.2 grains in Winchester... 41.0 in Lapua or Remington or Hornady... should work well. Next higher node is about 1.2 grains more powder. Work up carefully.

[@ctn14250]

Go with...39 grains IMR 3031, with all Fed. Match Grade parts. For 168 grain Fed GMM. Impact will duplicate Factory . This will be excellent for out to 800 yrds. We didn't shoot much farther out than that , as 800 yrds is basically the `Max. effective killing range for the .308 , 168 gr. HPBT Match. Bobby C , Retire LEO 25 yrs , SRT Counter Sniper 17 yrs of that 25 & Instructor. My spotter, had to use , 39.1 grs. of 3031 in his Rem. Bull Barrel .308 . Mine was a HOWA Bull Barrel .308. For training , schools & Green Light shoots, financially it was not feasible to purchase Factory ammo by the case." Real World". A case lasted us a few years. As periodically, we would through in a factory round to make sure we were still where we should be. Never got so tired of `clover leafs` in my life. Keep experimenting ! Got my recipe from a National Competition shooter, who has since passed away. His range of shooting was out to 1,000 yrds.

[@northman77]

I will try to make a clone in 2021... Better late than ever I guess!

[@TravisZeller-pd5lq]

I recently loaded 175 Smk in federal case with 210 primer and 41.8gr of imr 4064. I got 2550 fps out of a 20 inch barrel. I also shot some federal gmm 175gr and only got 2460 fps. Did they change powder? Thanks in advance

[@FuelTankerMan]

Some of the FGMM 308 ammo does seem to have a different powder than IMR 4064. I've see a shorter cut powder at less than 40 grains in some of it. It shoots tight, but it's slower, as you've noticed. I don't have any idea what this faster burning, shorter cut powder is, but it's probably one of the Alliant powders, since ATK owns Federal and Alliant... and Savage... And CCI/Speer... :o

[@TravisZeller-pd5lq]

Yes it still shoots good just noticed it was slower

[@TravisZeller-pd5lq]

Have you used the new 169gr Smk?

[@FuelTankerMan]

one of our instructors has, with excellent results. Much higher BC than the 168 and shoots very well in his rifle. @@TravisZeller-pd5lq

[@TravisZeller-pd5lq]

What’s your thoughts on using the 168gr load of 42.8gr imr 4064 with the 169?

[@FuelTankerMan]

listen up guys... we address the issue of identifying potential factory powders during the video, and more to detail here-->practicalrifler.fr.yuku.com/topic/1238/propreitary-powders#.VOpsDC6GW-c We don't advocate just opening a shell, dumping the powder, *guessing* what it is... then putting that much of XYZ powder into a shell and shooting it. Most folks who have read through the first chapter of any reloading manual will know better than doing this. For some odd reason, there are folks who go a bit berserk when the topic of sleuthing factory ammo load recipes comes up. Do factories use "blended" powders? No. It simply makes no sense to do this. Factories will not tell you that they use "blended" powders (unless they're lying to confuse you, and I would like to see a link to a factory ammo webpage that indicates the use of "blended" powders)... but they do say their powders are "proprietary"--which simply means that they are not going to tell you what they're using. And think about it... why would they tell you what powder they're using? They have no good reason to, and a bunch of reasons not to. :)

[@FuelTankerMan]

yes, LC is about the same volume as the FC brass, so lower node at 41.8 grains with 175's would be about right. And there is a higher node at 43.0 grains as well.

[@THutch556]

Dan Newberry Hello Dan, any idea what this load would be In lapua brass? Or Winchester brass? Thanks.

[@VitoBb1978]

Dan by some chance did check the OAL of the 175 & 168 Gr loads ? Your video is very informative

[@snakeyes7711]

Actually, i found they varied from .010-.020" on the oal, on current production 168gr fgmm

[@judaspriestly88]

does the primer matter much? I have a ton of federal brass, but as far as primers go, I have cci200s and federal 210's (I bought them from an old guy at work and I think they are... aged... but seem to have worked this far) not the 210m's

[@FuelTankerMan]

the primer isn't as important as many who don't use Optimal Charge Weight loads would have you believe. Try the CCI200's and the Federal 210's and see if one or the other is markedly better in this application--then just go with that. There should not be a significant difference in accuracy, but point of impact might move slightly, and one primer or the other might have tighter chronograph numbers when you test the loads. Then... as odd as it may sound, next trip out the other primer will do better. So don't worry too much about which primer you use, as either will work fine.

[@ZeroBoostBuick]

Winchester 168gr Match cartridges are extremely accurate... tho I have old boxes and new boxes of it and the old boxes don't shoot half as good as the new ones... I would love to know what powder they use... I took one apart and it had 45gr of a very fine powder with the odd cylindrical kernel.

[@stroudads]

I would say the powder you see in the winchester round in Win 748.

[@BuddyLe38386]

Heavier bullets require less powder due to increases in pressure of the heavier bullet in the barrel.

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

stroudads That is an interesting choice for them to use in a match loading. 748 does not shoot well in anything I’ve tried it in. 760 is great in .30-06 though.

[@Rprecision]

Interesting video, So what gives FGMM its jazz ? Uniform components, perfect OCW powder charge? There is something to what these guys are doing

[@snakeyes7711]

It all comes into play. Brass consistency, oal, charge, match primers, Bullet weight.

[@tapout66]

Hi Dan. Great info. How would the charge weight differ if using standard LC brass? Would you recommend 41.8 gr of 4064 in LC brass?

[@FuelTankerMan]

it should be the same... next higher node would be 43.0 grains

[@tapout66]

Dan Newberry Hi Dan. For some reason my hand loads were consistently 100 fps slower that factory GMM. I chrono'd factory vs my loads. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

[@FuelTankerMan]

the lower node is 41.8, the higher node is 43.0 grains of 4064 with 175's... we've seen Federal using 43 grains as of late, so that's the next step, use 43.0 grains and it'll get you that 100 fps

[@matthewzeller3291]

Do you know what the federal gold medal match 300 win mag 190gr. Load is?

[@FuelTankerMan]

I don't know what it is now. A commonly used match load is 73 to 73.5 grains of RL22 with the 190. If you're loading FC or Norma or Nosler brass, use 73 grains. Winchester or Remington or Hornady brass, use 73.5 grains. Work up from 70 grains to ensure that you're not getting pressure issues, as it's an at max load.

[@matthewzeller3291]

Thank you

[@chrishoesel]

How does IMR 4064 meter from a Dillon powder measure? I was going to use this powder to replicate MK316 loads on 175 C-SMK bullets, but I heard it meters like Lincoln Logs so I went with H4895. I'll be shooting these out of a 16 and 18in barreled LMT MWS, so I need the high-production volume. I could single-stage them, but it would be a shame to not use my S1050 for it. Also, how is the Lake City LR brass with this charge you posted? Should I use less starting charge weight or good to go? I'll be doing full case prep + annealing on this brass. Thanks in advance.

[@FuelTankerMan]

Lake City should be about the same. If you want to use the H4895 which will meter better, load it at 41.0 grains and check for accuracy and velocity. The next higher node would be at 42.2 grains or so with the H4895. The old DuPont made M118LR load was 42.0 grains of IMR 4895 in LC match brass with the 175 grain SMK's.

[@chrishoesel]

Thanks for the assist. Will give that a try.

[@johnpjonesch]

How much VV N150 would be needed to replicate the 42.8 IMR 4064 for the 168 FGMM? BTW, I think Federal will change powders due to interruption in supply. Thus, the differences we see over time.

[@johnpjonesch]

TheMetalGuy852 I've been reloading since the 70s.

[@johnpjonesch]

TheMetalGuy852 look up the Sierra sheet for the 168 SMK. it's been around for a long time. and nobody is MFing the guy's work on the video.

[@TexasSheepdawg21]

Since people’s sense of smell varies, how does one “know” the smell of IMR 4064?

[@bullgiraffe]

Probably talking about the smell of powder of a fired cartridge.

[@slipknnnot]

He doesn't, would be nice if his camera could focus or if he actually had imr 4064 on hand lol...

[@kevinyoung7783]

On your OCW website you mention that Federal brass is not fit to reload. Do you still feel that way after your evaluation of the GMM ammo?

[@yamaha-homies]

Im on my 4th reload of FGMM and still shootin bug holes. ;)

[@FuelTankerMan]

Kevin... the newer batches of FC brass seem much better than the earlier batches. So while I'd still rather use Lapua or Winchester, the Federal can be made to work. I like to anneal it about every 3rd firing to keep it soft, as it seems to work harden faster than other alloys.

[@joeregina3627]

You said: 168HPBT ->42.8 grains of IMR 4064 the 175HPBT -> 41.7 grains of IMR 4064. Are you sure that isn't backwards? It seems that the heavier bullet would require more powder. The other thing that I found amazing about this ammo is that it has 1-2/10,000 runout on my concentricity gauge. I've got a couple thousand cases that I'm reloading. Great service, excellent video.

[@FuelTankerMan]

heavy bullets use less powder, as the heavier the bullet the more pressure a given amount of powder will generate... thanks for the kind words. :)

[@cogunlover5550]

Joe Regina I need some brass. Send some my way.

[@fieldofdreams6850]

look at a reloading book and educate yourself

[@wakeupyoufidiots]

I took a 168 FGMM apart and it had 40.0 gr of 4064 but I have seen literature / build sheet that showed 41.57 gr in a 175. I will take a 175 apart later today

[@pedrobossio5440]

Do you use the 210M primers?

[@FuelTankerMan]

if available, yes... the CCI 200's or BR2's do very well also

[@ZeroBoostBuick]

Is the FGMM brass the same as regular Federal brass just weight sorted and better inspected ? or is it different than the regular Federal/Federal Premium brass ?

[@AllisChalmersMN]

All the brass comes from the same lines and goes through almost the same process. I believe the gold medal brass has primer seal and possibly mouth varnish. I know other premium loads are the same. American eagle and blue box loads use brass from the same lines but no primer seal or varnish.

[@jracer815]

Is this still accurate? This video is a few years old . Have you tried this with a current 175 grain ?

[@FuelTankerMan]

The bullet weight won't affect the OCW (optimal charge weight)... so it'll work with the 175's from Sierra or Nosler. The next higher node is at 43.0 grains in the FC brass, and we've pulled down some of the Gold Medal Match marked 7.62x51 (in the military brass), and some has 43.0 grains, and this load runs about 75 fps faster than the 41.8 grain load.

[@xusmico187]

a true PhD protocol

[@billbee235]

I was curious about the recipe because my LR-308 shoots 175 gr Gold Medal extremely well, so I decided to buy a box and take it apart. They must've changed the powder again because I found an average of 40.5 grains of powder. I also took the powder and put it side by side with IMR 4064, Varget, H4895, and IMR 4895 and it looks completely different. The kernels inside the cartridges that I pulled out looked much shorter, about half the size of IMR 4064. Would this be Reloader 15? If not, is it just IMR 4064 that's been cut down for metering?

[@FuelTankerMan]

At that light of a charge, it's probably XMR8208 or something in the 4895 burn range. If it's RL15, it's an off lot, for sure... but they will use off lots of powder at times. I have not seen Federal Gold Medal with a charge that light, but the MagTech "Sniper" ammo has 168 grain match bullet with 40.5 grains of a powder much like you describe.

[@billbee235]

​@@FuelTankerMan I have done quite a bit of testing with IMR 4064 and haven't been able to duplicate the FGMM results. I'm going to try again and take extra care in my brass preparation and weight sort all my cases and see if this improves results. I made another 25 rounds where loaded cartridges are all within 1/2 grain in total weight. If that doesn't yield some better results, I'm going to say FGMM has been made with some sort of witchcraft because it shoots 3/4 inch groups out of my gas gun at 200 yards consistently, but my handloads are typically 2-3 inch groups at 200 yards.

[@FuelTankerMan]

@@billbee235 it's probably the FC brass, it's not very good for reloading... gets work hardened fast. LC (Lake City) is better. If you want to reload and get FGMM performance (better, actually) use Lapua brass and 42.0 grains of IMR 4064 and 175 grain Matchking. If that doesn't perform, the rifle should be checked out--it's really that good. :)

[@scottcarpenter3115]

I found the same as you. I took some 175 Federal GMM loads apart this week and found 40.2 - 40.3 grains of what looks and smells exactly like the RL-15 I compared it to. Definitely not 4064. Shoots great in my LR 308.

[@billbee235]

Scott Carpenter I think it’s a 4895 powder. I tried 40.5 gr of H4895 and it performed that same as FGMM however I took Dans advice and tried 41.8 gr of IMR 4064 and took my time on brass prep and shot 1/2 MOA groups at 200 yards my next time at the range

[@el5495]

is this 308

[@piro2k]

NO! It's .303 Kurz

[@BuddyLe38386]

17 HMR

[@forwhomthebelltolls392]

That is one hell of a dirty case lube pad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Besides, all precision handloaders use Imperial case wax as a case lube.

[@FuelTankerMan]

Google your name and reloading... then google mine, Dan Newberry. Compare the hits you get. And Imperial sizing wax isn't near as good as RCBS case lube. That's why RCBS case lube is sold in gallon jugs...