SLIDING BANK DIAMOND SYSTEMS … How to Aim Banks at Fast-Speed or Close-to-the-Cushion

Dr. Dave demonstrates, evaluates, and compares various diamond systems for aiming sliding bank shots where fast speed is used or where the object ball is close to the banking cushion.
Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:32 - Reference Lines
3:11 - Dr. Dave 1/3-More-Than-Twice System
7:29 - Bob Jewett’s 3-Diamond “Spot on the Wall”
8:41 - Measured “Spot on the Wall”
11:50 - Other Systems
---- 12:06 - 1-more-than-twice
---- 12:51 - Eckert 3/8
---- 13:47 - Briesath thirds
14:33 - System Comparison
17:22 - Wrap Up
CORRECTIONS:
- I should have mentioned that the Eckert 3/8 and Briesath thirds systems are identical since 8/3x is the same as 2x(1 + 1/3).
- Jerry Briesath modifies his thirds system above the size pocket. Instead of 5 1/3, 6 2/3, 7 3/3, he uses 5 1/3, 6 1/3, 7 1/3). The thirds stop advancing above 5 1/3.
Supporting Resources:
- bank shot aiming systems resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- bank and kick shot tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutor...
- “Aim KICKS and BANKS Like a Pro … The Only DIAMOND SYSTEM You Need to Know” video: • Aim KICKS and BANKS Li...
- “Top 10 BANK and KICK Shot Aiming SYSTEMS” video: • Top 10 BANK and KICK S...
- “BANK and KICK Effects and Aiming ADJUSTMENTS” video: • BANK and KICK Effects ...
- 1/3-more-than-twice banking system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- “spot on the wall” aiming systems: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- Video Encyclopedia of One-Pocket (VEOP): drdavebilliards.com/videos/veop/
- diamond ruler for 9′ table (for measuring between diamonds): billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
- three balls in a line with 3/8″ gaps (to minimize spin transfer and aiming errors during test shots): billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
- small-gap combination resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/c...
- “CRAZY BANKS: Corey DEUEL vs John BRUMBACK - 2018 20th DERBY CITY CLASSIC BANKS DIVISION” video: • CRAZY BANKS: Corey DEU...
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[@DrDaveBilliards]

*Contents:* 0:00 - Intro 0:32 - Reference Lines 3:11 - Dr. Dave 1/3-More-Than-Twice System 7:29 - Jewett 3-Diamond “Spot on the Wall” 8:41 - Measured “Spot on the Wall” 11:50 - Other Systems ---- 12:06 - 1-more-than-twice ---- 12:51 - Eckert 3/8 ---- 13:47 - Briesath thirds 14:33 - System Comparison 17:22 - Wrap Up CORRECTIONS: - I should have mentioned that the Eckert 3/8 and Briesath thirds systems are identical since 8/3x is the same as 2x(1 + 1/3). - Jerry Briesath modifies his thirds system above the size pocket. Instead of 5 1/3, 6 2/3, 7 3/3, he uses 5 1/3, 6 1/3, 7 1/3). The thirds stop advancing above 5 1/3. *Supporting Resources:* - bank shot aiming systems resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/ - bank and kick shot tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/ - “Aim KICKS and BANKS Like a Pro … The Only DIAMOND SYSTEM You Need to Know” video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aoK6lISertmYnKs - “Top 10 BANK and KICK Shot Aiming SYSTEMS” video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2aoqaGqaLx3jqM - “BANK and KICK Effects and Aiming ADJUSTMENTS” video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2LMhKShf8-Kna8 - 1/3-more-than-twice banking system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/one-third-more-than-twice/ - “spot on the wall” aiming systems: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/spot-on-wall/ - Video Encyclopedia of One-Pocket (VEOP): drdavebilliards.com/videos/veop/ - diamond ruler for 9′ table (for measuring between diamonds): billiards.colostate.edu/resource_files/diamond_ruler.pdf - three balls in a line with 3/8″ gaps (to minimize spin transfer and aiming errors during test shots): billiards.colostate.edu/resource_files/gapped-ball_template.pdf - small-gap combination resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/combination/small-gap/ - “CRAZY BANKS: Corey DEUEL vs John BRUMBACK - 2018 20th DERBY CITY CLASSIC BANKS DIVISION” video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJrbiXeLiN-ib6c *Subscribe to Dr. Dave's KZbin Channel:* kzbin.info

[@MrEzekielveal92]

Thank you Dr. Dave. I've learned so much in this short session.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad to hear it. You're welcome.

[@scottarvizu9720]

As usual, you are so thorough. Just a great reference. Thank you.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)

[@HillbillyIslandLife]

Fantastic video and explanation! Always one of the best!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks!

[@chuckki11a]

What a single man with so much love for it can do for the game... You have, and will continue to, help to develop this game so much ! Thank you !

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)

[@joestrauss8977]

It's a quarter diamond more on the rail ball for 7 foot diamond tables. This is the exact banking system that I use. Great video Dr. Dave. I made a video just like this one. I took it down because it didn't do well and received lots of criticism from other KZbinrs. They all denounced everything I said and showed exactly what you are showing. Now it will be more accepted since the information is coming from you. Ty for doing this video and reinforcing what I have been doing for quite some time. TTYL

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm sorry the mob drove you to remove your video. I'm glad you like my video.

[@Worldslaziestninjadave]

Love these systems. As a recreational player most the time. I generally use more visualization techniques. Since a kid i always imagined a mirror 90degrres to the rail and aimed for the ghost pocket.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That will get you in the "ball park," but it won't work for slow-rolling kicks or banks or sliding banks. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/

[@franzaspiras1388]

lets be honest i ve been subscribe to your channel for such a long time and your content really dont disappoint me I have learn a lot on the content that you upload and i apply it whenever i play pool here in the philippines

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for the comment.

[@vcoolpool]

This is a Deep video Doc. Thanks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I hope you think it is "deep" in a good way. You're welcome.

[@kscileli]

Great stuff Dr. Dave. Love the Iverson video at the end; I use that line on a few players here who don't like to practice (obviously, they'll never get much better). Is there a video on banks off the short rail? I guess I'll check later. Thanks for all the AWESOME work you put in to make these videos! 🎱💪

[@DrDaveBilliards]

All the systems work the same way with banks off short rails. You just measure everything from the long rail instead. I have examples in the videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/

[@suewoo5]

With a few principles in mind its all by feel for me. Love these breakdowns they never miss

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Nothing wrong with feel as long as it is accurate and consistent.

[@lewisplayspool]

Phenomenal work Doctor Dave. This has been on my mind for a good while now, but what is your take on aiming these shots where the CB and OB are not a 1/1 full ball? What sort of adjustments does one make in order to compensate for cut-induced sidespin imparted on OB with a non-1/1 hit? I respect your diligence and amazing work. Swerve!!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I cover this in detail in the videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/cut-induced-spin/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/effects/ Enjoy!

[@ral819]

I saw another method used on a site... Where the far rail diamond numbers are as normal . 10-20-30-40 etc, The numbers on the near rail correspond to 4-8-12-16-20-25 -30 . At fast speed it works well and is easy to remember. Example is -when at 12 on the near rail , shoot for 12 on the far rail... Its close to your reference lines...

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Honestly, I don't like systems that require you to memorize diamond numbers. I only included systems that have a simple "formula" (e.g., "1/3-more-than-twice") which is easy to remember.

[@jackslover107]

How can you find the video description? You are so accurate and scientific, much higher than my level. I haven’t played pool for years but since I had my table recovered and a couple of cushions replaced at 81 I have decided to try and learn how to shoot pool shots. Anything you tell me I will practice until I am proficient. Thank you.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

On a mobile device, click on "... more" beneath the video twice. On a PC, the description is right below the video.

[@adamdozier5757]

Just shows how hard banks are, and how great our brains and eyes can calculate banks to make them with a lot of practice. Some days I can't miss a bank and some days it's like I've never banked before. Same with playing straight in shots, small cuts, hard cuts, 1/2 balls, 1/4 balls, and 3/4 balls too. Hate this game sometimes. LOL

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Pool is cool ... and tough (except when it is easy).

[@KTHKUHNKK]

My God you are really into it. Numbers were never ever my strong point. Keith

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... then I recommend the 3.3-diamond "spot on the wall" system. ... or just lots of practice.

[@KTHKUHNKK]

@@DrDaveBilliards I really am glad I'm old and don't play pool anymore. Even though I really love the game and was addicted to it for a while

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Why did you stop playing? I plan to play until my dying days.

[@AlsAllMetalDetecting]

Awesome Dave! Be well, Al-Fu

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.

[@GetMeThere1]

Impressive!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you!

[@Eliebl]

Dear Dr. Dave. I'm trying my best to imply these systems in my game but I continue to have some issues with it. It seems that in all of the pots you have balls placed on the aiming lines or in between but most of the time cueball and object ball are not parallel to these lines but cometely different. How do you even start measuring anything when the line between cueball and object ball is completely off? Edit: I wrote the comment before finishing the video. I'm going to watch the mentionend video for cut shots now.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I hope the videos help.

[@robertkerr229]

The spot on the wall adjustment for low angles is because the spot on the wall represents 0/0 which is deep in the pocket. The best spot for the object ball to enter the pocket in those cases is by aiming a little "higher" than the spot on the wall. At wider angles the pocket entry line and 0/0 aim line are more congruent. This is also why the 1/3 more than twice is not formulaic consistent; the pocket entry target is about 0.15 / 0.15 rather than 0/0. EDIT: Though, in your diagrams you show 0 at the center of the pocket rather than at the intersection of the diamonds on adjoining rails. If this is correct I have been thinking about diamonds wrong until today.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Did you see where I had the 11 for the reference shots and 3.3-diamond spot-on-the-wall experiment? It was high in the pocket at the intersection of the rail-groove lines. FYI, I didn't draw the pocket entry lines (and pocket target location) very carefully in the diagrams because only the lines of aim are important to determine the "spot on the wall" location.

[@JanWeigangMusic]

I thought about what you present in this video and I want to propose to you a better system: Most diamond-measuring systems miss some shots, because the diamonds introduce a fixed distance (diamond to bank). Every angle scales up, but the the fixed distance results in errors at the lowest and highest cut angles. Yet with your "1/3 more than double"-system you measure from the banks but introduce a fixed distance of "1/3 of a diamond", which again results in errors at the lowest and highest cut angles. So wouldn't the best system use no fixed distances at all? It should always scale with the diamonds. Here is my solution: Your system (using the banks to aim) seems most accurate at diamonds 2 and 4-and-1/3. This is 2 multiplied by 13/6. Now this does not seem easy to calculate, but there is a trick here: On a 9-foot-table the diamonds are 12.3 inches distance from each other. On an 8-foot table it they are still 11.5 inches. So 1/12th of a diamond is basically just an inch! This means, multiplying by 13/6 is the same as this: Double the diamond. Add as many inches as resulting Diamonds. 0.5 -> Diamond 1 + 1 inch 1.0 -> Diamond 2 + 2 inches 1.5 -> Diamond 3 + 3 inches 2.0 -> Diamond 4 + 4 inches (this is 1/3 more than twice) 2.5 -> Diamond 5 + 5 inches 3.0 -> Diamond 6 + 6 inches (this is halfewaybetween 6 and 7) Could you test this against the others with the same scientific methods?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Good idea; although, your assumptions and values are off a little. FYI, I recently came up with a 7/3 (1/3 times more than twice) system that matches the measurements very well. I will be posting a video soon, but all the info (along with a comparison of all the systems) can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-27.pdf

[@DrDaveBilliards]

FYI, I revised my analysis today. I had errors in my original file. The new optimal result is: "twice plus or a tenth of twice." On a "bar box," this matches your idea exactly since the diamonds are 10" apart. On a 9' table, the diamonds are 12.5" apart, so you need to add 1 1/4" for each diamond (instead of the 1" you suggested).

[@nitesh.u3987]

Well sometimes i feel its illegal to watch this content for free

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If it makes you feel too guilty, you can repent by buying some of my products. :)

[@timothyeverson1795]

What happens when you have to play blackball without diamonds (also can I get a recommendation on what to watch for kicks under the same conditions)?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

There are lots of good visual systems that don't require diamonds, including the equal-distance and mirror systems here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/

[@timothyeverson1795]

@@DrDaveBilliards 🥹 thanks Dr. Dave.

[@herleikholtan7850]

Unrelated question: My pool coach says that I shouldn't do follow-through on stop shots. The cue should stop one ball length after the hit. That seems so contrary to my expectation, and his explanation didn't make sense to me. So what's your take? Follow-through on stop shots: yay or nay?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The follow through length should vary with the speed of the shot. Stop shot control is better with a lower tip and slower speed. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stun/stop/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/follow-through/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/speed/advice/

[@herleikholtan7850]

​@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks, that cleared it up. You do indeed use a shorter follow-through on stop shots, but that is symptomatic of using slower speed. For stun shots, the follow-through length would depend on the speed, which would depend on how far you want it to drift. Have a good day, Dr. Dave! 🌞

[@1Andypro]

Thank you Dave! Couple of questions: - Where exactly is the "rail groove" measurement? Is it directly under the edge of the cushion overhang, or at the ghost ball position for a ball frozen to the rail? - How do you use the 1/3rd more than twice system when the object ball is far from the rail without doing a whole bunch of trial and error spots on the far cushion?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. 1. The "rail groove" is where balls sit when they are contact with the cushion. On a worn table, you can see it on the cloth. 2. If the OB is far from the cushion, I start with a guess (based on intuition, which improves over time). Then I check the numbers and make a correction if necessary.

[@GreenThumb121]

Can you explain the physics of why rebound angles for sliding balls are more consistent and predictable than for rolling balls? Would like to see one of your diagrammatic illustrations along with an appropriate academic paragraph or so. Thanks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I have a full explanation and demonstration here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2LMhKShf8-Kna8

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Basically, when the CB has any topspin, that topspin curves the ball forward after the rebound, causing it to go longer.

[@GreenThumb121]

@@DrDaveBilliards How does the forward roll cause the rebounded ball to curve? Is conservation of angular momentum involved?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@GreenThumb121 Some topspin is retained after rebound off the cushion. This causes the ball to curve forward. Angular momentum is not conserved during the collision due to forces from the cushion and table. Angular momentum is not conserve during the curve either due to friction forces at the bottom of the ball.

[@GreenThumb121]

@@DrDaveBilliards Are you able to calculate such ball path curvature for both top/forward and btttom/draw spin?

[@joegreen5634]

I look at the spot on the object ball I want to hit. I keep my eye on that spot while I walk to the cue ball. As I walk, I see imaginary lines moving with me like in a video game. It can't really be taught. It just happens and it's been very reliable for me.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I like it. What most top players do is described and demonstrated here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/aiming/dam/#advice

[@emekdulgeroglu3914]

I think multiplication by 2.5 is a little easier version of Eckert's system. Which is different only by 7% and works better for newer tables, I think.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Good point. New cloth does bank a little long, so using 2.5 instead of 2.66 might help.

[@robertkerr229]

Where is true 0,0 of a corner? Is it where the diamonds from short rail and long rail intersect? Or where the seam between each rail and cushion intersect as hinted at in diagram at 9:25?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The "0 point" in the line of diamonds is where it intersects the cushion nose line of the adjacent rail. For the reference line measurements and the 3.3-diamond "spot on the wall" system, I used the intersection of the rail groove lines as the "center of the pocket."

[@robertkerr229]

thanks so much@@DrDaveBilliards also for the new kick system twice plus tenths. will be practicing that. At the pool hall I keep forgetting it is for sliding object balls until I get home and watch the video again. Also I need to get familiar with SAWS as you keep pointing out that is one of the methods needed when making adjustments for shots other than straight in. I'm new but it seems the serious players all know your name and videos!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@robertkerr229 I hope you find the system useful after the practice. I'm glad to hear serious players you know are smart. :)

[@robertkerr229]

@@DrDaveBilliards Last night 2 hours after watching this, practiced with team. Had two of these shots show up in first 3 games. I explained to everyone what you said, detailed the math, and nailed both shots, with zero practice. Everyone wants link to this video. It was magnificent!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@robertkerr229 I'm glad to hear it. Thank you for the success story.

[@kanguruster]

I don't mind decimals, but these diamonds are confusing; I've never played on a table with them and I might not have ever seen one in real life. Either they over complicate things or they're a crutch. Would you redo your system without them, please? Thanks. ;-)

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The "spot on the wall" system does not require diamonds. I have also done many videos on equal-distance and mirror systems that do not require diamonds: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/

[@kanguruster]

@@DrDaveBilliardsThank you, Dr Dave.

[@user-rd8vo1pr3j]

😮

[@lo0ksik]

i just imagine a mirror table and aim for the pocket there,seems to work

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... not at fast speed or when the OB is close to the cushion.

[@2wheelman]

can you chat about ghost ball shooting too please . thank you

[@DrDaveBilliards]

See the videos and info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/aiming/ghost-ball/

[@xeyedsurfer]

I love banks for the fact you never have a definitive aim point. Hit soft or hard with all kinds of spin to get cue ball moving on intended path.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

There are many effects that change kick/bank direction: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/effects/ It is difficult to judge all of them without lots of experience and smart practice.

[@r.salisbury133]

I don't understand how "spot on the wall" systems can work when that is never a consistent distance from the edge of the table

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If you use your cue as I demonstrate in the video, you don't need a spot on a "wall."

[@ados_guy]

I'm at the point where I can consistently bank system free. all feel

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If you are accurate and consistent over a wide range of bank types, good for you. That ain't easy.

[@jasonjoslin6493]

I love this for fast speed banks but for natural banking I thing you are looking way to far into this. Spot on the wall works well but no need as all natural angles work with aiming at half and whole diamonds almost no matter where the cueball lies. this point was proven by Freddy banks Betivegna. pardon the last name spelling.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed. Rolling kicks and banks are much easier to aim using the 2-to-1 systems here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/two-to-one/

[@brianb0326]

Great instruction. But im.just a pool player. This could have been done while speaking Chinese. I still wouldnt get it either way. LOL thank you Sir for posting

[@DrDaveBilliards]

How can it be "great instruction" if you "don't get it?"

[@frazierg0325]

Ain't nobody got time for this.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Damn right.

[@sachinrane2770]

1/3 method works out well if you are banking along the diamonds.. but in the real world the balls arent always going to be right under or half-way from the diamond.. would be nice to see how it works in any position.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I show how to do this (doing 2-to-1 adjustments between the reference lines) in other videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/

[@Poolshala]

Дядька детально излагает), но стойку ставить нужно ему.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Google Translate: The uncle sets out in detail), but he needs to put the rack. ???

[@robertmeadows1657]

Put your money where your mouth is??

[@jackslover107]

You are magnificent!,

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

[@HillbillyIslandLife]

First person to complete on their table and send in gets a free BU Course and Trip......

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I hope others will test their tables like I did, but all you get is an imaginary "gold star." :)

[@adamdozier5757]

@@DrDaveBilliards LOL I hope to meet you some day.

[@mr.lootybutthole]

I am pretty lazy, when it comes to training the 2:1 shifts and calculating tends to mess with my concentration. What i do is combine 2 of your methods. I determine the spot on the wall reference line. Take the line to the OB and just take the numbers of that line to determine if they match the system. Seems a bit odd but it helps.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I don't like using the "spot on the wall" during play because it takes too long to walk around the table and do all the steps required, but your approach sounds fine as long as you aren't on a shot clock.

[@ThePrufessa]

Hey, I'm trying to find a match and I'm hoping you can help me out. I _think_ the player I'm talking about is Earl Strickland but I could be wrong. He was playing a game where he just kept getting bad rolls the entire match. Do you by chance know which game I'm thinking of?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Sorry, but I don't have a clue. That's not much info to go on.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Are you thinking about "Sequence 8" in my "TOP 10 BEST Pro Pool SHOT SEQUENCES of All Time" video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGSUe5-ped6GfpI

[@ThePrufessa]

@@DrDaveBilliards no. That's not it. It was an entire match where whoever it was (still not 100% positive it was Strickland) just had pure bad luck the entire time. Every single roll went his opponent's way. No worries if you can't think of it when I find it I'll let you know.

[@ThePrufessa]

@@DrDaveBilliards found it. It was Mike Sigel not Strickland. Versus Efren for $200k in 8 ball. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3TXkpdpgaiDhqc

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@ThePrufessa Thanks for the link!