Noiseless "Single Coil" (Stacked Humbucker): Build Tips and Theory

How I build noiseless "single coils," also known more accurately as stacked humbuckers. Credit to Rob DiStefano for all the help over the years in regards to building pickups.
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Single Coil Pickup Building Guide:
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Complete Pickup Testing Guide:
• Complete Guitar Pickup...
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[@infectionsman]

Wait! Are you saying that the inductance of the bottom coil doesn't matter in terms of having an effect on tone? Shouldn't a stacked pickup be significantly darker than a regular single coil if (for example) each of the coils have 1x the inductance of the full single coil? The sensing and dummy coils are in series so, about twice the inductance and thus a much lower resonant frequency?

[@guitar_md]

I'm about to do a deep dive here. A very deep, multi-page deep dive. So bear with me. It's a great question, and I was inspired to do some more research of my own in order to answer your question, which I'll do now to the best of my ability. I'll preface this by saying that *if* the inductance truly is higher, that has never shown up on my LCR meter. I recently did a noiseless Stratocaster pickup with 6,500 turns on the bottom coil and 6,500 turns on the top coil. That's 13,000 total turns, but I ended up with an inductance of 2.6 Henries. I just happen to make a 13,000 turn single coil Strat model, and the inductance of that pickup is about 5.0 Henries. What gives? Now here's where it gets interesting. In an audio test, and on a bode plot, it's very clear that the noiseless Strat pickup has less high end and less clarity than an equivalent single coil neck pickup. Why is this, if the inductance isn't the culprit? Let's unravel the mystery a little further by looking at the bode plot numbers. The 13,000 turn single coil Strat pickup is 3.4dB @ 2.3kHz. The Noiseless 6,500 turn noiseless Strat pickup is 3.9dB @ 4.0kHz. Now, I have a 2.0 Henry neck pickup I make. Single coil. And that one is 6.7dB @ 4.4kHz. I suspect if I wound out the noiseless slightly less, it would likely end up at the same resonant frequency of 4.4kHz -- same as that Strat Neck single coil. I merely overshot the wind by a little, as it's a new design I'm experimenting with. However, despite the 0.6 Henry difference, that does *not* account for the lack of clarity in the noiseless pickup. Again, why is that? This isn't explained by the inductance. And the noiseless pickup has a *higher* resonant frequency -- considerably higher -- than a single coil with the same number of turns. Let's play Devil's Advocate and say that the LCR meter for some reason doesn't show the higher inductance, and the noiseless stacked pickups do in fact have higher inductance -- 2x what a normal single coil would have. So let's keep things simple and say the inductance of our noiseless Strat pickup in this scenario is 5.0 Henries, just like the 13,000 turn single coil. We're *still* left with a much higher resonant frequency. And we're *still* left with a pickup that doesn't sound as clear or 'hi-definition' as a roughly equivalent single coil pickup. Again...why? Notice that the "Q factor" is highest on the Strat Neck single coil. The "Q factor" is just a fancy term for how much decibel voltage there is at a particular frequency, which is also just a fancy way of saying how much output does a pickup have at a particular frequency. Notice the single coil has 6.7 decibels at 4.4kHz. And the noiseless only has 3.4 decibels at 4.0kHz. This means that the noiseless pickup has a lower Q factor. The amplitude at peak frequency is roughly *half* in the noiseless pickup, compared to the single coil. Think of it like an EQ profile. You know how you can increase a frequency by amplifying it, by pulling an EQ fader up? Same thing here, for all intents and purposes. So imagine that on the single coil, the 4.4kHz EQ fader is pulled up to +6.7dB. And the noiseless pickup has the resonant peak in almost the same place around 4.4kHz, but the EQ fader is only pulled up to +3.4dB. If you look at what I personally have coined the "attenuation frequency" -- the first frequency at which a pickup goes into the *negative* dBV range, you'll find that the noiseless pickup drops off *much* more quickly, and *much* more sharply than the single coil. So it isn't just the Q factor, but the higher frequency rolloff as a whole. I've made a comparison bode plot for you here, to demonstrate this visually: imgur.com/gallery/tSJ0N0W Now, here's where it gets *really* interesting. Remember that 13,000 turn pickup I mentioned, which has 5.0 Henries inductance? And our noiseless pickup with two coils stacked together *should* have about 5.0 Henries inductance, given the 2.6 Henries measurement (presumably, the other coil is "invisible" to the LCR meter for whatever reason). You'll notice that the Q factor of the 5.0 Henry single coil and the 2.6 Henry noiseless are *almost identical. 3.9dB for the noiseless, and 3.4dB for the single coil. I've plotted *those* two pickups here. You can see that, aside from the 13,000 single coil having a much lower resonant frequency, the frequency 'curve' (I think of this as an EQ profile curve) looks very, *very* similar. Take a look at the bode plot I made here: imgur.com/gallery/I7aziAl I hadn't considered this before your comment, so thank you! Doing bode plots is a royal pain and if it weren't for your comment, I probably wouldn't have thought to compare these pickups. The end result? It appears the inductance *might* be "invisible" to the LCR meter. But the inductance also does not affect the resonant frequency in such a linear way as it usually does on single coil pickups. That would mean higher inductance = lower resonant frequency. In this case, the resonant frequency is pretty much the same that we'd expect from a single coil with the same turn count as the top coil of the noiseless stack. But the Q factor is considerably lower. So even with the LCR meter inductance and the Bode Plot resonant frequency being nearly identical, the Q factor is not. And perhaps that Q factor is what results in a more rapid dropoff of high end. The single coil has *greater amplitude* at its resonant frequency, even if the noiseless stack has the *same resonant frequency.* And the single coil *retains more high end frequencies* as the plot descends, while the noiseless stack *loses more high end frequencies* as the plot descends. So the long-winded answer? I'm not exactly sure *why* noiseless pickups do what they do. In my ongoing discussions with Antigua Tele from TDPRI, he's mentioned the Q factor problem, and one of the ways Bill Lawrence addressed it in his noiseless designs was -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- to use an Air Coil for the bottom coil. That means no magnetic or ferrous material, just air, for the bottom coil. Then it's much more like a true dummy coil, compared to being wrapped around the magnets. Of course, there's still a loss of high end with dummy coils. Anyway, my 6,500 turn pickup was an experiment, as I've found that very short coils, like Bill Lawrence's Micro Coils, tend to be much clearer and more "hi-fi" -- so I thought if I made a noiseless stacked pickup with an 1/8" top coil (super short) and extremely fine gauge wire (48AWG SPN), I might be able to bypass these issues of lost high end. I will say, my latest experiment sounds quite good, though it's not all the way there yet. In side by side tests the lack of high end 'bite' and clarity/sparkle is very noticeable. One thing you can do, as Antigua has pointed out to me, is to use higher value pots to raise the Q factor, like 500k or 1Meg Ohm pots. Or I should say, this will just leave more high end frequencies. The pots won't add anything, but a noiseless pickup with 500k or 1Meg pots might be that much closer to a typical single coil with 250k pots. I'm still figuring all this stuff out, and it's a lot of fun keeping track of all these experiments. I do keep a 'master' spreadsheet of all my pickup experiments, which came in particularly handy here. Once you have the bode plot text files saved in an Excel spreadsheet, you can merely copy and paste them into Notepad, save it as a text file, and import those into the PC LAB 2000 software to make bode plots in any combination you want. You don't need an oscilloscope to do it either, just the software and the text file data. Let me know if you have any other questions. I always consider myself a student as much as anyone else, and I'd consider my response here much more an 'explanation' than an answer. I have the same questions, and much of the answers are buried or impossible to find, so you end up having to do your own experiments. I'm always happy to share the results of my experiments, and all the data I've collected, whenever I have time. Thanks again for the question, and I hope this response was of some use or interest to you. My next experiment will likely be emulating Bill's "Air Gap" design to see if using an air coil for the bottom coil increases the Q factor at all and gets closer to a true single coil tone. If you look up Antigua Tele's review of Mojotone's Quiet Coils here, you'll see they pretty much nailed it. I do love experimenting and making pickups but it's tough when you're competing with actual engineers. These guys are way smarter than I'll ever be, and while I haven't tried the Mojotones myself, on paper, they look like one of the best noiseless designs out there: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8862/mojotone-quiet-coils-analysis-review#:~:text=All%20of%20the%20specs%20are,5dB%20is%20all%20spot%20on.

[@infectionsman]

@@guitar_md Interesting read! I have had quite a few looks at bode plots like these before and I also have chatted with mr Antigua about the subject. I have read antigua's posts on those micro coils and quiet coils before aswell. 🙂 Do you have inductance readings and/or plots for just one of those coils from the noiseless stack pickups? That could perhaps give more clues to what is going on. Unfortunately I do not own a LCR meter nor an intergrator to perform this kind of testing. I agree that the slope after the resonant frequency is quite important, ive read some of antiguas posts where he messed around with this slope using audio software. About the pot values, another way of increasing bite that I have done is to take the guitar cable capacitance out of the equation by installing an onboard buffer, but this may not be vintage-correct. (I apologise for nitpicking) but I think you may have confused Q factor with "resonant peak" (max dB value at resonant Freq). Basically Q factor is a dimensionless number based on the height vs width of the peak, a tall narrow peak has high Q and short wide peak has low Q.

[@guitar_md]

@@infectionsman This is one reason I'm working on a more user-friendly interpretation of the bode plot numbers, as opposed to the actual graphic plots. The graphic plots are useful as a quick reference, but text data is much easier to share and I think once a few points are established beyond resonant peak, a relatively complete picture can be formed. I appreciate the input about Q factor, I was mistaking it for resonant peak. In this case it appears to have a close correlation, as the reduced dBV at the resonant peak also correlates with a lower Q factor. I'm still working on understanding this. Many of the concepts don't make that much sense to me, though I've wound and tested hundreds of pickups. Lately I've mostly been looking at the numbers on a spreadsheet, as opposed to bode plots, as the numbers are obviously a lot more accurate/telling. The bode plot graphics are great for a quick reference but I'm a bit more numbers oriented. I don't have the exact measurements of the coils, but I think 2.6 Henries each is probably very close, based on the bobbin size and number of turns and wire gauge. In my most recent exchange with Antigua, he mentioned high series DC resistance can cause a lower Q factor. So the 48AWG might be the culprit here. And again, I'm still learning how to interpret the plots and what they actually mean. The vast majority of my bode plots I've done on my own designs, though I have measured other mainstream pickups. I think being able to make them myself is the most valuable as I can control the variables, and one of my goals is to collect a large database of my own experiments. And perhaps people who understand this stuff more than I do can interpret the results. I'm pretty meticulous, including coil height, wire gauge and insulation type, number of turns, and every other metric I can think of that I have access to. Information that is rarely available on commercial pickups, where we have plots, but can only guess the amount of turns. Usually wire gauge guestimates are pretty close though, to be fair, if you know what you're doing. Another thing I forgot to mention is the starting dBV. I zero all my plots so they're easier to compare. But the noiseless pickup actually started at -2.18dBV at 100Hz, while the equivalent single coil neck pickup started at 1.3dB @ 100Hz. And the 13,000 turn single coil started at 6.07dB @ 100Hz. So that's another factor to consider. And a very important one. Notice how much more output the 13,000 single coil has compared to the 13,000 noiseless. Over 4x more, going by the numbers. And I can confidently say that knowing these pickups very well, the 13,000 turn single coil I make is definitely much, MUCH louder than the noiseless pickup. The noiseless pickup is also significantly quieter than a normal single coil. That would mean out of all of them, the noiseless pickup has *less* total output overall. If you don't zero the plots, it's easy to see that the noiseless pickup has much less voltage output at every frequency. It's *dramatically* less output than the equivalent 13,000 turns, which is explained by the fact that the bottom coil in noiseless pickups is essentially only 25% active at best, as explained in the book I referenced. It still has an effect on the tone of the pickup. But again, this is where it gets tricky, because it doesn't reduce the resonant frequency, or even change it at all as far as I can tell. It *does* affect the dBV value, but more importantly, the Q factor, as the entire plot has a flatter curve with a broader peak. The coils with my method are connected in series. I'm not sure what's typical. I know most noiseless pickups have four solder joints. So that could be a part of it. I'll also add that the noiseless pickup does not sound bad by any means, and while the loss of high end is certainly noticeable, I'm not sure it's any more dramatic than a typical noiseless pickup. The Mojotone Quiet Coils and the like seem to have gone the extra mile in retaining all that high end clarity and sparkle. It may be beyond my means to replicate that, at least for now.

[@infectionsman]

@@guitar_md Calculating the Q factor is probably not that important most of the time with guitar pickups, but it could be useful if you are trying to match the sound of a specific pickup. The dBV value at resonance is important but can be confusing sometimes for instance if you look at something like a filtertron that has an obvious peak (somewhat high q) but still a low dBV value since the plot is sloping down before even reaching the resonant Freq where it peaks up. About the output of noiseless stacked pickups: I have the idea that the bottom coil produces an out of phase voltage compared to what the sensing coil produces from the string. The coils are reverse wound, but the magnetic dipole in the string would seem to be the same polarity in respect to both coils. So the voltage induced in the bottom coil should actually cancel out some (25% ?) signal from the main coil. But I am not certain. Most noiseless designs I have seen are connected in series, parallel seems wasteful in terms of wire and space. About your noiseless pickup: If it sounds good, it is good! I am just stumped at the inductance of the pickup seemingly being so low with that many turns. I remembered this post by antigua about fender noiseless pickups: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7731/fender-vintage-noiseless-analysis-review Here we can see all the DCR and inductance values and how they add up: DC Resistance (series): 10.27K top: 5.14K bot: 5.18K Inductance (series): 2.592 H top: 1.445H bot: 1.591H It seems they were intending for both coils in series to produce the typical inductance of a fender single coil ~ 2.5H

[@JOOODYJOOODY]

it sounds like you tried to make a dummy coil with magnets instead of without magnets which would create an out of phase signal accounting for the anomaly...a reversed coil direction needs reversed magnetic polarity to to have signal added and not subtracted

[@Michael_Dominic]

this information is so technical it's mind blowing.

[@klasewiberg]

Genius!

[@guitar_md]

Thank you so much!

[@SwompyGaming]

Would it be possible to make a "double stacked humbucker" bassicly stack a regilar humbucker in a similar way to this. Im just curious how it would sound

[@Drunken_Hamster]

No sound test? Sadge. Either way, do you think you can make these but with a rail-style pole piece and strong neo magnets?

[@deltacharlieecho4732]

I'm currently working on making a 2002 Fender Squire Bullet as good as it can be made and am looking for some pickups for it. I don't know if this is the best way to get into contact with you but I'm looking for 4 wire stacked pickups for the bridge and neck positions and a matched output center pickup. I was curious how I'd work with you on getting these made. Characteristically I'm a big fan of having more than what I need with the ability to roll off on the output so I guess I'd be looking for a high output set. I doubt any of the rest of the build matters in regards to pickup selection but the plan is: Wenge neck with wenge fret board Brass saddles and bridge stainless steel frets SSS config with stacked singles in bridge and neck Twin mini switches that allows for North coil/Both Coils/South Coil on both of the stacked singles Dual Push/Push pots that change the tone resistor and switch the 5 way wiring on a super 5 switch super 5 way switch I know this is probably too much information for the project but I figured I'd give you everything so you understand why I'm looking for exactly what I'm asking about.

[@robertwierer683]

Hi can you build a stacked singlecoil with adjustable polepieces for mi? where are living you? greez Robert

[@Dncr]

There is not much videos about making pickups on youtube, I really appreciate that you share your knowledge with us. I am very much interested in noiseless pickups, recently found about coil per string pickups. Look forward to see your pick on that.

[@guitar_md]

Thanks so much! I've known about the coil per string pickups for a long time now, but have no opinion, as I've never tried them, and don't know enough to comment. However, Dr. Lawing's blog is here: lawingmusicalproducts.com/dr-lawings-blog He has a ton of great info. My experience is solely with winding traditional pickups with one coil of wire, or two at the most. And my main experimentations have been with altering the coil size/height, magnet types, wire, and more. But all basic stuff. If I ever get around to it, I mean to make some videos comparing pickups that I've made. I think that could be very interesting.

[@laurenbrowdy4552]

Does your method create an actual noiseless pick up? I have the Fender stacked coils in my Jazz Bass V deluxe, and they still have some 60 cycle hum (I know this because it changes based on my position). The most annoying thing is that it doesn’t go away when both pickups are up like single coils. If they at least did that, then it would be a net benefit over single coils in terms of noise. Now I’m not sure. But either way, my understanding is that stacked coils necessarily leave some 60 cycle. Is that incorrect, or self by your method (using the same wire)? And is it possible that they don’t cancel out because the coils are wrapped in the same direction as each other, and if they were in reverse of one another, it would be full canceling like single coils when both pickups are on?

[@AmerikkkaGuitars]

Nice video. I tried the split coil pickups for bass and it worked really well. Unfortunately the phasing issue will effect the guitar neck pickups because of the pull distance of D and G strings. Seen a video howthe dead spots occurs. I could offset the coils but that would totally change the universal form factor. I'm gonna try and stack the fender style p90s and use pole pieces like you mentioned before. 1/4 bobbin height, which should hopefully make it darker. Using 43 awg gauge but I should really go at least 44 awg probably.

[@guitar_md]

44AWG is definitely the way to go for 1/4", but 43 might still work. Lately I've made a couple Micro Coil designs (Bill Lawrence) with only 1/8" winding space. For those, I use 48AWG, which I've never heard of anyone else using. Results are mixed. The 48AWG on a PAF bobbin (mounted to some Strat bottom flatwork) with 16,000 turns I recently did gets a very cool sound, allegedly like an Alumitone. Into an Amp I don't really like it. Hard to explain why. But direct in it's great. Shorter bobbins do get a different sound. I'm not exactly sure what it is yet. But definitely different. In my experience, thinner wire has lower capacitance, and shorter bobbins have lower capacitance. A 7,600 turn 48AWG, 1/8" winding space Tele Bridge Micro Coil I did recently only had 21pF capacitance after winding. Nuts. The customer said it's interesting but lacks high end sparkle/bite and also lacks low end, seems like all mids. More tests needed. Definitely let me know how your test goes. Stacked coils will avoid that dead spot, so while split coils are very cool, stacked are much easier and less problematic. The Micro Coil is using the same build style I use here, just the bottom part is empty instead of being another Coil. Now that I have some 48AWG I want to try making a super overwound noiseless. My main bridge pickup in my Strat right now is one I wound to 18,000 turns with 46AWG on a bobbin with .500" windinf space. I'm hooked on that darker, more powerful sound.

[@AmerikkkaGuitars]

@@guitar_md A super overwound noiseless would be great. I too am gravitating toward lower resonant peaks. The bobbin height is definitely a factor. P90 in neck position is godly. I wonder how it would mix with a strat pup in the middle position? 48 awg is nuts man. I started breaking wire at 43 awg. Gotta do that velcro tension trick. Really hard to control now. I like the simplicity of split coils, but for now, only going to them for bass players. Stacked coils seems way better. Know of any good places to buy flatwork? Philadelphia luthier has some and donlis store has some.

[@guitar_md]

@@AmerikkkaGuitars I use Mojotone mostly for flatwork. Flatwork does seem hard to find, as outside of Mojotone, there aren't many options. I use addiction-fx on eBay for my Strat flatwork, and Philadelphia Luthier as you mentioned too. Tone Kraft has flatwork, but they never ship. I've ordered before and never received it. They do ship magnets quickly, but they custom cut their flatwork and my guess is they're so backed up they just never get around to doing it. Have ordered flatwork from them several times and it never arrived, not even after several months, and I had to request a refund. The Velcro tensioner is great. I've since gone to simply using two popsicle sticks lined with felt. I just put some double stick tape on a couple popsicle sticks, wrap felt around them, trim, and done. Hold together with a Stewmac kerfing clamp. You can probably get similar clamps somewhere else cheaper, but I can personally attest to the quality of the Stewmac kerfing clamps. Then it's just a by feel kind of thing. But it's so easy. Popsicle sticks, felt, clamp. The Velcro is very good but I'm getting just as good results with the felt. You just have to fiddle around with where you sandwich the wire between the popsicle sticks, and where you put the clamp, to get the tension right. Very 'touchy feely,' as Rob has called it. The tensioner works so well, I was winding at 4300 RPM with 48AWG and didn't break the wire. I'm not sure if you saw my new KZbin short, but I also got some Rubbermaid water pitchers from Wal-Mart. Drilled out the lid with a Forstner bit and fit a wooden bead in the middle. They're great for holding spools of wire, though I'm using rather large spools (around 9" tall). I got the 48AWG from Ultra Fine Copper Wire, I think the company name is Ruiyuan. www.ultrafinecopperwire.com/ You need to e-mail them and ask one of their reps for availability and pricing, and send via PayPal to their PayPal address. So far I've ordered 45AWG, 46AWG, and 48AWG, all good. The tensioner really makes a world of difference. If you're struggling with 43, I guarantee it's because of the lack of a tensioner. 48AWG is pretty much my limit until I'm crazy enough to try something even finer, but 48AWG breaks very, very, *very* easily. Even 46 doesn't seem so bad compared to 48. But definitely try making one of those tensioners. You don't even have to use a kerfing clamp, any strong enough clamp will work. I really can't even imagine winding pickups without it -- they're that good.

[@guitar_md]

@@AmerikkkaGuitars I can't wait to try making a super overwound noiseless stack. I bought a broken verion 4 noiseless Fender (tele neck) from someone, I think it was actually one of my viewers here on KZbin. And it looks interesting. I haven't measured the wire yet, which will require me to repair it first, if it's even possible. But it has a shorter bottom coil and a taller top coil. I'm curious if they use the same wire gauge or not. I'd imagine it's different, and I'd imagine they match the turn count...but I'm unsure. I'm curious why they'd use a taller coil on top as well instead of the shorter coil. There may be a good reason for that. As of now, I can't explain what the difference is between shorter and taller coils, given the same resonant frequency. There's definitely a difference. I have the specs listed. Also, you can shoot me an e-mail at [e-mail] if you want, and I can add you to the shared list for my pickup spreadsheet. I'm just logging a bunch of data in there as I go along. Would be happy to share the link to the Google Drive file with you. I try to keep it updated though there's a lot missing. Mostly measurements and bode plots for various pickups, including some that I've made myself.

[@AmerikkkaGuitars]

@@guitar_md Thanks, Going to send an email to share google spreadsheet. I have one too I can share, mostly univox and cheaper pickups and some custom's Iv'e made.

[@lowalkoroc]

Before I watched this video, I tried doing a stacked design with 5,000 turns ea of 43awg (10,000 total) and observed the low inductance like you described. I believe it was about 1.9H. I switched the wiring back to in-phase / non-noise canceling and the inductance shot up to 8H. Any idea why this phenomena happens with stacked designs out of phase but not in a normal humbucker design which is out of phase by design? Is it just because the stacked bobbin cores have the same polarity?

[@guitar_md]

That's absolutely it -- the stacked have the same polarity. Now why is that exactly? I'd love to be able to answer why on a more specific level. Instead, let me share with you a section from "Electric Guitar: Sound Secrets and Technology" by Helmuth Lemme: "Another common form is the so-called coaxial (‘stacked’) humbucker where both coils are placed on top of one another. This principle was first invented by Armand F. Knoblaugh in 1938 (US patent no. 2,119,584) but was not used in guitars for a long time. It first came into use in the Gibson ‘Les Paul Professional’ and the ‘Les Paul Recording.' This then was copied by many others. Here two coils of half-height are wound on to a big bar magnet or six individual magnets. Because the lower coil is removed from the strings further along to the upper one, it delivers a far lower signal voltage with an order of magnitude of approximately one quarter. If it is switched reversely in series to the upper one for hum rejection, it deducts a part of the voltage. Pickups of this style therefore have a weaker signal than single coils of the same size. " --------- So, regular humbuckers don't have this issue. Because the magnetic polarity is reversed *in addition* to the phase, they have a true additive effect when wired in series, meaning the inductance of both coils is combined. A similar effect can be observed with a phase switch. This is one of my favorite mods. My wiring diagram is here: imgur.com/gallery/aiI59L6 Series/parallel and in phase/out of phase switches. I use two pickups in my guitars, with reverse magnetic polarity. Now there's an interesting idea. When you play with these switches, you'll quickly hear how the "out of phase" sounds have much less low end. There is less output overall, but there's a disproportionate drop in low end frequencies. "Out of phase" gets this great, nasally, honky kind of tone. Series out of phase gets the sharpest, most brittle tone, while parallel out of phase gets a more honky, nasally, cocked wah sort of tone. And of course, series in phase and parallel in phase get more traditional sounds. It's hard to imagine why, then, a noiseless stack would sound *so* different from two normal pickups polarized and phased in the same way. That it mostly just cancels noise, and causes a loss of overall output, but we don't get these "honky" or "nasally" tones. And I think it's because of the proximity to the strings. If you were to take the bottom coil of a noiseless stack and make it into its own separate single coil, with the same winding direction and polarity, and install it as a bridge pickup -- -- then you'd have two pickups with the same polarity, and out of phase with each other. So you'd get your nasally, honky, "out of phase" tone. The reason noiseless stacks don't get the same tone, and instead cancel hum, seems to be a consequence of distance from the strings. The plucking of the strings is what induces an alternating current in the coils via electromagnetic induction. The greater the distance the coil is from the strings, the weaker that induced current is. Basically, imagine a pickup right next to the strings. Then you lower it so it's flush with the pickguard. And how much of a difference that makes. Now imagine you lower it so much that it's 1/4" or 1/2" below the pickguard. Wish I had a more scientific understanding to offer you. But hopefully that helps. Interesting stuff to think about! I'm always learning more, so I'll let you know if I discover anything else. FYI, I've had better results recently using a taller top coil and shorter bottom coil. My latest noiseless experiments have been a .280" tall top coil, and a .130" tall bottom coil. Top coil wound with 6,000 turns of 43AWG, and the bottom coil wound with 6,000 turns of 48AWG. They sound much closer to a real single coil, and even have a bit more high end. Almost hi-fi sounding. I got the idea from Fender, who uses a taller top coil and shorter bottom coil on their noiseless pickups. I just took it to an extreme and used 43AWG and 48AWG. I've used 48 on a bunch of pickups now and it's a very fascinating wire. Not sure I could handle anything thinner. I get mine from Ultra Fine Copper Wire in China. Highly recommended. If I had more time and energy I would have made a followup video, but for now, the best I can do is update in the comment section. Thanks so much for commenting and asking a question, and I hope this helps!

[@iridios6127]

If it's not too much hustle, build that pup with separate coils, listen and measure the voltage on each coil separately. So that we can confirm or refute the initial theory.

[@user-xt2yv5rt4q]

I bought Fralin pickups with two separate magnet rails. It's sound like a single, but actually it's humbucker. I don't understand how does it work, but it's work really good. If somebody knows, I will be appreciated for explaining.

[@guitar_md]

Those are rail humbuckers. Humbuckers can achieve a more single coil tone by using fewer turns of wire, which results in lower inductance, and a higher resonant frequency. A humbucker is merely two single coils wired together in series, with the coils placed directly next to one another. The pertinent measurements are inductance, capacitance, and resonant frequency. Under the load of pots and a typical guitar cable, many Strat pickups fall into the 3.5 - 4.0kHz range. If the humbucker's resonant frequency falls into the same range, it will sound similar. This is also just a guess, but I think that the much smaller size of rail humbuckers, compared to normal PAF style humbuckers, also contributes to it sounding more like a single coil. Why? Because rail humbuckers are closer in size to a single coil. The bobbins are much smaller than a typical humbucker bobbin. The overall size of the coil matters, and is one reason Tele pickups don't sound like Strat pickups, for example -- Tele pickups are significantly bigger. The magnets are the same size, but they're farther apart, so the resulting coil is bigger, and per turn of wire, the wire is traveling farther on a Tele pickup than on a Strat pickup. So again, just my guess. But I'd imagine that Fralin design has a similar inductance/capacitance/resonant frequency compared to a traditional single coil, and the smaller size of the bobbins probably gets it sounding closer too, compared to a traditional humbucker. There is an effect called Comb Filtering that humbuckers have. I don't understand it. But I know it exists. And I think it has something to do with how far apart the coils or, or also how big they are -- how much of an area of the string they're sensing, in total. The total area the coils are sensing would be much smaller on a rail humbucker -- the same footprint as a single coil. This is probably why. It does make me curious and maybe some time soon I'll make some again. I made one set for someone and it was a huge pain. They're really annoying to build. And the commercially available materials are not good. Not easy to use and they don't come out looking like factory made ones. I'll have to look more into it now!

[@user-xt2yv5rt4q]

Thanks for the reply. I think that the sound of the humbucker is muffled, due to the fact that the two coils are connected in parallel in the opposite phase.Therefore, parasitic leads subtract each other, but the useful signal is also partially subtracted. Fralin has two magnetic rails,one rail serves 1-3 strings,the second rail serves 4-6 strings. There are also two coils, because the 4 ends of the wire come out of the pickup. Maybe the coils are located separately on each of the rails, maybe not.I don't know.

[@josecarlosramolete6109]

Malmsteen should have requested you to build a noiseless stacked pickups for him.

[@rorysstuff5129]

What would happen if you wire the two coils in parallel instead series?

[@guitar_md]

I'm not sure, but you could expect a thinner, weaker tone -- I've never tried it. With the method I'm demonstrating here, wiring them in parallel is not possible, as it's one unbroken strand of wire. Two single coils wired in series vs. parallel or a humbucker with its coils wired in series vs. parallel. I'd expect similar results. Parallel has less output, actually significantly less. I forget the actual math on it, but it's not 50% of each pickup, it's more like 25% of each pickup, or something like that. So parallel is a much thinner sound with less output. I set up all my personal guitars with a 3 way switch, and then a series/parallel push pull pot, and an in phase/out of phase push pull pot. Best of both worlds. And 6 sounds out of two pickups. Absolutely love it!

[@martinclayton7260]

I like one of those hot Tele pickups!

[@guitar_md]

Let me know if you'd like me to make one for you. Send any inquiries to: [e-mail] And thanks so much!

[@martinclayton7260]

@@guitar_md thank you.

[@rickdicoulus4728]

This is basically a split coil, this type of coil is common in basses, I love how the design hides the counter coil so it looks like a single. beatufull.

[@guitar_md]

Thanks so much!

[@buzzedalldrink9131]

You need to learn all you can from Bill Lawrence. He was the master. look at his patents.

[@Jonathan_Doe_]

Turn count doesn’t have to match, the backplate systems and dimarzios stacked noiseless definitely don’t have matched coils. Dimarzio doesn’t run the poles through the hum cancelling coil though, it’s magnetically shielded from the top coil and it has its own steel slugs

[@olenfersoi8887]

Do a bit more research on that...as, while you can shield from EMR, and magnetic field shape can be influenced, it is virtually impossible to entirely shield from magnetic fields themselves ...consider the thousands of miles of Earth rock that does not block the magnetism emanating from Earth's iron/nickel core.

[@1RobHunter1]

If it isn't being done and giving great results, you should get paid for your hard work you put into this. Patent it.

[@marshallstack8570]

My name is Stack and I love a Strat. I'm gonna triple stack one of my strats,🤠

[@brCharlieNagy]

How much is your stacked single coil ? :-)

[@guitar_md]

$100 plus shipping is my current rate. You can shoot me an e-mail at [e-mail] if you're interested. Thanks!

[@olenfersoi8887]

Humbuckers are "noiseless" by virtue of one coil being both reverse wound AND reverse polarity of the other coil...and I thought both opposites were a requirement for the pickup to be noiseless. But the stacked pickup's reverse wound coil is the sale polarity as the other coil. So, why is it noiseless? Also, some people can't reverse their winder motors...or they attach the bobbin to the winder via the magnet on the bottom of the bobbin...making flipping it inconvenient. By putting in another eyelet to serve merely as a junction point, the "finish" of the first coil can be attached to that eyelet, and the start of the second coil can be attached to the regular "hot" or "signal" eyelet before winding it...then, its "finish" can soldered to that junction eyelet. The result will be equivalent to the second coil being reverse wound. And while I appreciate that your pickup work is both science & art, I disagree with the over emphasis on number of winds & resistance. In fact, when two different types of pickup could have identical resistance & sound completely different. AND, active pickups, with a builtin preamp can sound better & have more powerful output than one with 18,000 winds. Plus, output & tone is a factor of more than winds...ranging from the shape of the bobbin, height of the pickup, magnet type, case shape & composition, resistors capacitors & pots, and on and on. In fact, miniature electronics allow piezo pickups, with 1/4 of the output of magnetic pickups, to sound great...and graphic equalizers small enough to be mounted "onboard", as well as wiring mods, allow an almost infinite number of tones to come from a guitar...and for one pickup to sound like any other one...making some of this over-attention to detail no longer necessary. Plus, the power requirement of pre-amps is small...especially compared to that which is needed for the power amp anyway! Beyond that...the most powerful, and best tone, I've heard from guitar was from one with active pickups.

[@guitar_md]

The answer to your question can be found in section 5.3, "Hum-compensated Single-coil Pickups" in the following book: The Physics of the Electric Guitar by Manfred Zollner, which I've compiled into a Google Drive document here: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1x9TRAo5gVvCZDk6OGI8rqSGRnm0P1OkM?usp=sharing The original source can be found for free here: gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/ I merely downloaded everything separately, including the videos, and compiled it for ease of access. Just search "5.3 Hum-compensated Single-coil Pickups" and it'll take you to the section of the book that explains everything. ------------------------------------ Also, I'm well aware that two pickups can have the same DCR and sound completely different. There's simply too much to cover in a video like this. The topic *here* is of a noiseless co-axial humbucker -- and turn count *does* matter with these, a lot. With noiseless pickups, including normal and co-axial humbuckers, the greater the difference in turn count is between the two coils, the less effective the noise cancelling will be. ------------------------------------ As for turn count, magnet type and strength, wire insulation thickness, bobbin dimensions -- all of this goes far beyond the scope of this video. Isolating for variables is not easy with pickups, and many people state that wire insulation thickness, wire gauge, coil height and width, magnet type and strength -- -- they say these things all matter, but nobody can actually tell you what difference they actually make, individually. I hesitate to speak more on the topic as it's extremely broad, extremely complex, and there's only real meaning in discussing independent variables if we're going to state clearly what they actually mean. Thicker wire insulation leads to lower capacitance. But it also affects the turn count indirectly, as it makes the total length of wire on each turn greater than it would be for a wire with thinner insulation. So right off the bat we've changed *two* variables by changing the wire insulation thickness, rather than just one. When you change the coil height, you're also changing the distance of each turn of wire. Similar to how a turn of wire on a Telecaster pickup is not the same as a turn of wire on a Stratocaster pickup, as Tele pickups are wider. The best way to test things, IMO, is to use bode plots, and to do your best to control variables insofar as that's possible. An example would be my super heavyweight pickup: you can make a similar pickup with a .500" coil height with 18,000 turns of 46AWG, as you can with a .570" coil height with 18,500 turns of 44AWG. .781" A5 magnets for the taller coil, .719" magnets for the shorter coil. As soon as you change the coil height like that, you're changing the magnet height *and* the length of the turns of wire. It just so happens that through experimenting I found 44AWG on a .570" coil to be similar to 46AWG on a .500" coil. That's not isolating variables in a highly accurate way, but it's as close as laypeople can get without a laboratory setting. And I will say from running bode plots on both of these models, the resonant frequency is exactly the same -- around 1.6kHz -- with similar Q factors, meaning the amplitude in decibel voltage *at* that resonant frequency. The taller pickup seems to have slightly more output with a slightly higher Q factor, and greater retention of higher end frequencies. That's reflected in the lower inductance of the taller pickup, which, despite having 500 more turns of wire, is 10.5 Henries vs. the 11.4 Henries of the shorter pickup. Comparing the bode plots side by side, you can see that right at the resonant frequency of *both* pickups, 1.6kHz, the taller pickup has a greater amplitude at the higher frequencies. It declines at the same rate as the shorter pickup, but since it's starting with a greater amplitude, it retains more high frequencies compared to the other. I haven't gotten into making a video about these things yet because it gets extremely complicated, and explaining things in a user-friendly way when most people have only *ever* heard of DCR for measuring pickups -- it takes a lot of condensation of these principles, with clear examples, to explain what's going on. I've even talked to people who are aware of inductance and capacitance, but misapply them in the same way people misapply DCR. Resonant frequency is not the be-all end-all and as I mentioned in the prior example, two pickups can have an identical resonant frequency, yet sound quite different. That becomes evident *only* when comparing bode plots of pickups side by side. When we use *only* DCR, or *only* inductance and capacitance, or *only* the listed resonant frequency, we miss the bigger picture. For a standard of comparison it's best to have a "standard," like an 8,000 turn Strat pickup with a .430" coil height, 42AWG plain enamel, poly, or formvar wire, and Alnico 5 magnets. That "standard" is very necessary, as without standards, we have nothing to compare by. It's easiest to compare pickups by make and model, where only *one* variable is changed at a time, insofar as that's even possible. Turn count is one such variable, and *most* builders only use turn count as the major variable. People like me tend to get more experimental, using very thick or very thin wire and radically different coil heights, like .570", or on the other end of the spectrum, .125" with wire gauges as thin as 48AWG. I could go on and on but suffice to say this gets very complicated. Anyway, I agree with you completely about active pickups. Passive pickups in this day and age are more a manner of tradition and convenience rather than being superior to active pickups. With post processing, flat EQ active pickups can achieve tones of just about any variety. With passive pickups like most of the ones I make, the tone is "baked in." However, most people want to just "plug and play" and not have to deal with batteries, or post-processing, even if those options offer a lot more variability and versatility. If you haven't checked out CyFi Research, I recommend looking into them. They talk all about these things and their products look exceptional. My latest experiment is a lo-z noiseless co-axial coil (stacked noiseless like in this video) with steel poles, a neodymium magnet, and about 500 turns of 38AWG on each coil. I'm using a piezo pickup in the neck pocket, and have two output jacks. The lo-z magnetic goes to one output on my interface, the neck pocket piezo to the other. Both run into their own Triton audio preamp, the BigAmp in the case of the magnetic, and the BigAmp piezo in the case of the piezo. Both Triton audio DI boxes run on phantom power, supplied by my 2i2 interface. This is a great setup and sounds phenomenal. And with post processing you can achieve some really stellar sounds. I mostly use NDSP Archetype: Petrucci on the piezo amp setting for acoustic tones using these pickups. And the results are astounding. You can also do incredible things when running two separate outputs. And relying on an interface for phantom power, the wiring is dead simple. Volume knob for each pickup, separate output jack for each pickup. And that's it. Everything can be controlled in post. This is a perfect example of a great guitar for home recording. Instead of the Triton audio, using a fully equipped DI box -- one for each pickup -- in a live situation, you'd have complete control over your sound, in full stereo. So, I'm all for active pickups. When you use very few turns you get a mostly flat EQ that can be manipulated to sound like just about whatever you want if you know what you're doing in post-processing. Whether that's using a DAW or a DI box or EQ pedal and everything inbetween. As you can maybe tell, condensing these thoughts into a video would take a massive amount of effort. The hardest part about making videos is choosing what to focus on and what to leave out. If I just talked about these things live with no restraint the video would end up being hours long and it would be very difficult to get anything useful from it. Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe at some point I *will* do a live video. I just prefer writing scripts as I find organizing my thoughts tremendously difficult and when I ramble on a lot, I lose people very quickly. Especially on extremely complicated topics like this.

[@capaya8139]

in laymans terms, you’re basically saying that to get a tone close to that of an 8000 wound 42 awg single coil, the total wind count of a noiseless pup would need to he 16000??! wow, i always assumed that the two halves would be 4000 each and then add up together to the desired 8000 for the same or similar tone of a regular 8000 wound pup

[@guitar_md]

Yes, that's it. Since the bottom coil is mostly inactive in its contribution to the tone of the pickup. Humbuckers are another story entirely. One of the most Strat sounding humbuckers I've made was using alnico polepieces and around 4750 turns of wire per bobbin, for a total of 9,500 turns. It isn't that simple though either. Keep in mind that on a single coil pickup, as you near the end, each turn of wire is traveling a much greater distance than the initial turns of wire. As the layers build up, each turn of wire is longer than it was on the previous layer. So when winding a humbucker, which uses two bobbins, you're 'starting from scratch' on each bobbin. There is also an effect called 'comb filtering' that affects the tone of the humbucker, and is a direct result of there being a larger area of the string vibration sensed due to the two individual coils -- and the fact that there are two coils picking up the sound instead of just one. It is quite staggering for the stacked noiseless pickups. This is one reason I've been experimenting with low impedance noiseless pickups, which simply means a pickup with much fewer turns of wire, not nearly enough to produce enough volume without a preamp. You can even do this yourself, as you can easily wind a low impedance pickup by hand, as it requires mere hundreds of turns of wire, as opposed to multiple thousands. The lowest I've gone so far is 500 turns for each coil, but I want to try getting thicker wire and doing 50 or 100 turns on each coil, and see how that sounds. I've been playing direct in to my Scarlett 2i2 interface these days, almost exclusively. Being an audio interface, it has a built in preamp. So even very low output pickups can be boosted to where they're perfectly loud and audible. A separate preamp still might be preferable. But anyway: the noiseless low impedance pickups I've made have been extremely quiet, which could be useful for recording, and they also have a very flat EQ -- meaning that you have much greater flexibility in shaping their tone in post-processing using digital plugins / software. We're living in the digital age and I'm very curious to see if low impedance noiseless pickups are the solution. Not that it's anything new. Les Paul came up with this back in the '50s with his professional series Les Pauls that were made to connect directly to the recording console in the studio, via an XLR cable if I'm not mistaken -- which would mean a balanced output. He was very ahead of his time with that. All the stuff I'm doing seems like elementary school recess in comparison. But still a lot of fun. Also look up CyFi modular pickups. They have DIY plans. I've never tried to make them, but they have plans for them up on Github, and you can purchase them if you want. Very interesting concept -- very, very interesting. What I like with passive pickups is that the tone is 'baked in.' You just plug and play. The trade-off is that they are not versatile at all. You get one sound from the pickup and that's it, and the potential to EQ it as desired will be much more difficult, as again, the tone is 'baked in' to the pickup. Well anyway. Just rambling as usual. I could talk about this stuff all day. Hopefully you find some of this somewhat interesting or useful. Pickups are simple devices but the possibilities really go on forever. I also have a video in the works about a Cozart 12 String, where I installed a piezo disc pickup in the neck pocket, and made a low impedance magnetic neck pickup, and blended the two together in a Jazz Bass wiring scheme. It sounds extremely unique and I'm excited to see how much I can improve on that.

[@capaya8139]

@@guitar_md what if the upper bobbin was wound like a regular strat pickup, and the lower bobbin was wound with a much higher gauge but the space for winding was reduced to a much smaller size? The two windings would match in turn count, however, the upper half (the important one) would be the same spec as a standard single coil. would this get to a closer accurate tone than two halves of equally high coil gauge?

[@BixLives32]

Your work looks excellent. But, "close to the tone" says it all. It's still a humbucker and will not produce the classic bright-attack Fender sound. You should note that different sized wire gauges can significantly alter voltage velocity (i.e., the speed of the current within the conductor). This can greatly affect phase alignment between the two coils. E.g., electro-magnetic RF moves at the speed of light (300,000 metres / second)...but, ONLY IN THE VACUUM OF FREE SPACE. In the Earth's atmosphere, the speed is at least 80% slower. In quality coax, - e.g., Beldon 9913 - the RF velocity loss factor is less by over 90%! AF signals (to 24 kHz) are not far different. This is why your coil wire lengths MUST be EXACT, your winding deadly consistent (hand winding is not advised), and you MUST use, not only the same gauge wire, but wire from the same manufacturing run. Look into using a broadcast quality, line-level, high impedance (for valve amplifiers) audio transformer at you guitar's output. They are expensive ($100 -$150) and some will not fit into a guitar without routing, but combined with a clean, battery driven class-D preamp, you will be rid of all or most 60Hz - 50Hz mains hum and stray EMF noise. Also, the volume pot on your guitar will no longer affect the tonal balance of the guitars output (if you use a class D preamp, OR a good MOSFET circuit). You do not HAVE to use an active preamp or expensive transformer, but without these items, the volume pot will affect the output tonal balance. When you turn the pot, the entire circuit's RC resonance value changes. I am a E.E. working on a new way to make noiseless TRUE single coil PUPS. I am pursuing 3 possible solutions, -all of which will be much cheaper than the above solution. I.e., the pickup alone will do it all (except for retaining tonal resonance response from the guitar's volume pot). Note that there are simple, inexpensive, passive RC / LC circuits that can reduce a guitar's volume pot's resonance affect on the signal. -Not quite as good as an active class-D output circuit, but a good volume pedal will solve this problem as well. Have a look at basic RC resonance formulae for passive AF circuits. It's no more than basic algebra; -if you can add fractions, you will be fine. Read the first 2 or 3 chapters of the ARRL handbook. YES, it is written for amateur radio people (i.e. HAMs, -NOT CB-ers), but the first chapters take you through classic, BASIC electronic circuitry theory, via a fast and in an easy to learn format. It applies to ALL electronics and anyone who wants to build anything from a pirate radio station in c. 1970 (No PLL chips, only valves!) or build better guitar circuits in 2023. -Good stuff. Buy any year ARRL Handbook (eBay). Basic circuitry has not changed. Newton saw to this, and not even the most confusing "String Theory" changes a darn thing. I think String Theory is good only for acquiring grant money...

[@JOOODYJOOODY]

so why are neither you nor rob selling noiseleass single coil pickups? ..if such a product existed it would make all previous single coils obsolete and irrelevant and needful for replacement...the upgrade clients would make you A BILLIONAIRE

[@guitar_md]

I put it in quotation marks to highlight the fact that most people refer to these as single coil pickups when they're obviously dual coils. Most people don't look inside though and assume that because they look like single coils on the outside that they are single coils