Slim and Wingate - Two British Commanders in Burma

[@johnmeldrum4717]

My dad George Taylor-Meldrum was a blackwatch machine gunner (bren and Lewis). He had expertise with pony's so he could work mules , he was awarded two George meddles he was in Palestine create and North Africa before Burma. They were flown in , in gliders with their mules and equipment, he had a vile hatred of the Japanese, lots of his chums had been captured and tortured left alive tied with Their feet in a fire . In the jungle this was a slow death from infection , quiet often had to put them out of their misery. My dad loved the bren for its lightness compared to the heavy Lewis gun . He remained a lance corporal for the whole war, refusing promotion not wanting to send anyone over the top solo speak . He was a soldier since 1935 . Honourable discharge with maleria in 1945, He was a good guy he faded away with alzimers RIP. My hero . My buddy as a small boy.

[@Cromwelldunbar]

How absolutely right you are! Your Dad’s experience and courage was supreme. Thanks for telling us. I don’t know quite what to say except that you are right to voice your detailed comment on what soldiers of those days were called upon to serve and carry out…AND THAT WE SHOULD NEVER OVERLOOK LET ALONE FORGET…A million thanks for your account and appraisal!

[@markwilkie3677]

My grandfather was an RSM in the Black watch and a Chindit. He served from 1920 to 1945 in all the places you mentioned and survived the war. RSM George Wilkie.

[@davidknight2220]

Glad to see the Auk getting a positive mention and as stated his unstinting support of Slim was vital to the re-conquest of Burma

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

The Auk had plans ready to defeat Rommel comprehesively at Second Alamein. He had already stopped the surging Rommel. Sadly, Churchill just did not like the Auk as he was a General from the British Indian Army and Monty was a throughbred, master of the set piece battle. The latter mainly put the Auk's plan in action and won accolades.

[@williammacalevey4625]

My father, Major General Gerald Esmond MacAlevey, RAMC was doctor head of the 17th Division in Slim's 14th Army and a friend of his.

[@philipford6183]

The Slim-Mountbatten partnership was perhaps the most serendipitous of the Burma Campaign. Mountbatten's arrival resulted in a dramatic transformation of the Burma theatre in myriad ways (not least the provision and prioritising of medical care for the wounded), but the Supremo's real gift, despite his well-documented faults, was his ability to bring together diverse and complicated personalities and competing agencies and actually get things done.

[@bobyouel7674]

thanks my dad was in the 2nd Division he never spoke about the war but he loved Slim

[@dougc2568]

Excellent. My father fought in Burma, he had a lot of time for Slim, less so for Mountbatten......

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

Mountbatten more of a showboy, Slim was an out and out a field commander.

[@mjinoz1677]

My father met Slim when he was G-G of Australia and was quite impressed, and this episode clearly paints him as an extraordinary military leader; all the more distressing that there are serious allegations about him outside his profession that will no doubt increasingly have to be considered in assessing him and his legacy.

[@scottgrimwood8868]

Another fantastic show! I have learned more about the Burma theater this week than I have in the last 40 years! These shows are a must for anyone interested in Burma. Thank you Paul & Robert!

[@tonyvart7068]

Just watched this one...wow what a guest. One of the best of the last 12 months i feel and i hadnt realised how prolific he has been in terms of books. This Burma week feels like last years D-Day broadcast in that it has genuinely broken new ground in the telling of history. Top job indeed Paul.

[@marchuvfulz]

Excellent, impressive talk. Second the recommendation for Slim's Defeat Into Victory--a classic.

[@shirleystewart3748]

My father, Capt. B.W. Stedeford, was a Chindit and was flown by glider to be dropped behind the Japanese lines. He greatly admired Slim who visited us for a meal in - I think 1946 0r 1947 when we were then in Germany. As I was then still not in my teens I only remember how relaxed the visit was but I never managed to sort out why he came to see us in Lubeck for an informal family meal with him. Did he do a tour of his colleagues before retiring from the army - does anyone know?

[@WW2TV]

You should reach out to Robert Lyman, he is on Twitter and has a website robertlyman.com/

[@HGmusiclist]

Slim and Wingate, love it. Took me many years (and I am probably not the only person) who learned about Wingate and much later about Slim. The attention is mostly on European war, also for us Dutch. Great men, very interesting show!!

[@dermotrooney9584]

"Comparative analysis of Monty and Slim". Blimey flip. Please stop whatever else you're doing and get it written. I'll buy two copies. Three. Great show again Paul. 👍🖖🙏

[@arts2412]

Great show thanks!

[@tiamatxvxianash9202]

Indeed all wars have their sideshows and secondary theaters of conflict that unfortunately fade in importance as history passes. Shelford Bidwell's "The Chindit War", along with Barbara Tuchman's "Stilwell and the American experience in China", have been some of my favorite books on this theatre of war. Thank you for this most excellent presentation gentleman.

[@brucermarino]

Another wonderful presentation! In reference to General Slim's affinity with the common soldier, when he visited my grand-parents-in-law at government house in West Australia, he brought his military privy/dunny with him. It does say something important about the man. Thank you Woody and Major Lyman!

[@louietuna8091]

My grandfather from Mobile, Al helped build the Burma Road under General Stillwell. He was older and put in charge of his division's motor pool. The officers always wanted their jeeps and other vehicles serviced and repaired first. Bottles of booze and other rare commodities were offered up and accepted. In camp they had a pet monkey, who got drunk as well.

[@philbosworth3789]

A very interesting episode. Paul is yet another great guest speaker.

[@markmorgan6179]

Super talk! Really interesting. Thank you! I'm reading Slims 'Defeat into Victory' at present. Its a very readable fascinating account of the Burma campaign.

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

Fascinating talk by Dr Lyman. Has mastery of the subject.

[@blowfish3]

Lyman’s _A War of Empires_ is the best book I have read about the Burma campaign. It is the only one that provides a full overview of the political context of the war in India and Burma as well the military history.

[@richardseverin1603]

Absolutely correct Paul. Robert Lyman is spellbinding. Wonderful presentation and very easy to listen to and follow.

[@MrPublicexposure]

My grandfather was a captain in the fourteenth army in Burma. I saw a photo of him with Tom Moore. He had lots of terrible stories to tell about the war.

[@thevelointhevale1132]

My Grandfather served in the British Army in Burma ... at some point they were awared Medals by Mountbatten and my Grandfather and his mate looked at eachother and tossed them into the sea on the Troop Carrier home. Says what they thought of Mountbatten ...

[@trevorfuller1078]

In broad terms, some historical parallels could also perhaps be drawn between both Slim & Wingate & Oliver Cromwell! Both Wingate & Cromwell had very strong, puritanical religious convictions; established & commanded elite shock troops units (Chindits for Wingate & the Ironsides’ Parliamentary Cavalry for Cromwell). Similarly, if you compare Slim & Cromwell styles & feats then parallels could be drawn between the deft way that Slim took the lessons of defeat of 1942 that Cromwell had similarly done, exactly 300 years before in 1642, when he first assumed control of the Ironsides along with Thomas Fairfax, before gradually throughout the mid-1640s after incurring initial setbacks & shortcomings, thus regrouping to retrain & re-equip the whole of the Parliamentary army, & reforming a large part of them as the “New Model Army”, which by the end of 1645-46, was a standardized & well-trained, well-motivated, well equipped & well lead & integrated force that, could be compared favourably with any comparative army in Europe or almost anywhere in those days! This could be in many ways be also comparable with Slim’s formation of the 14th Army in Burma & India between 1942-44, reshaping its doctrine & re-equipping itself to fight a new “all in together” tactical & operational mode of integrated warfare that like Cromwell ultimately decisively defeated & consistently so, its formidable foes in front of them until final victory was achieved in 1945. A better comparison or proposition to consider might be here, is whether Slim, disregarding national interests of the wartime Alliance, would have been also equally or more eligible & effective, if he (Slim) would have been assigned to perform just as credibly or perhaps even more so, in Eisenhower’s position, as head of SHAEF, were he then ever given the opportunity to do so?!!

[@morganhale3434]

In America many historians rate General Slim as the finest British Commander in WWII.

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

I do too. Slim was the finest British commander in WW II.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@@kuldipsinghbrar5859 What about Richard O Connor? He annihilated a force of 150,000 men with 30,000 troops.

[@andyroberts8030]

Superb lecture, thanks

[@Chiller01]

I know this is old but I enjoyed it. The one point I would make in the Slim vs Montgomery is that I actually think that had Slim succeeded Auchinleck in 1942 he would have been able to fulfill Eisenhower’s role whereas Montgomery could not.

[@trevorfuller1078]

Thoroughly enjoyable listening to this insightful & thought-provoking talk/show!! Many Thanks 🙏🏼 & Kudos again to Paul & Robert here!!

[@johnbrinsden8751]

Thanks!

[@upsetter8]

Excellent - thanks Paul & Rob

[@xrayfish2020]

I'm a year late to view this podcast, but it was well worth it - thanks for sharing this.

[@WW2TV]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jonrettich-ff4gj]

Can’t resist bringing up Rogers Rangers. Essentially trained as somewhat proper military to be used in more exotic roles en masse. I think that combination is the basis of all these specialist units. Always fascinating and stimulating. The insights presented as to how, who, what and why in relevant context is invaluable to me. Stillwells appalling treatment of some of the best combat units in the world is reprehensible. I believe it predicated on his mission to keep a very manipulative China in the war. I believe the U.S. were stuck with a who else do we have situation as was he, who just wanted to be a combat leader. Thank you and your guest as ever

[@frederickanderson1860]

Never give praises to these commander's no matter what strategy or tactics they use,the fog of war is same,(; the same applies its the ordinary soldier who determines the outcome. These general's had more honours like Mountbatten just proves the gap between the classes.

[@davidknight2220]

A book on Monty & Bill Slim brilliant

[@steveforden]

Superb, what an excellent conversation

[@thegreatdominion949]

In the chat I indicated that Wingate was lost in a crash of a C-47. That is not correct. The aircraft was a B-25H of the 1st Air Commando.

[@Conn30Mtenor]

Thanks to your guest at 1:07:40 for recognizing 2nd Alamein being the plan of Auchinleck. That man royally F'ed over by Churchill, the Queen of Drama Queens.

[@BurkhartBerthold]

Seen from distances - time, nationality - Wingate appears as a most remarkable British general. His idea of airlifted and airsupported deep incursions behind the enemies lines made a lot of sense in jungle warfare; however, as the Japanese got (almost) more supplies from the Brits than from their own logistics it didn´t lead to their defeat. It would have been interesting what kind of ideas he would have developed having served in Europe. At least, he wasn´t that boring kind of commander who prefered to bomb anything beyond recognition before attacking. Also, Wingate´s exploits in Ethipoia and his counter guerilla in Palestine are pretty impressive. Wingate was a most creative spirit and a born leader.

[@upsetter8]

Any chance Paul of getting Rob to talk about Wingates earlier operations in Palestine & Abyssinia & with Haile Selassie

[@kimeldiin1930]

I am not religious , but Wingate has always commanded the deepest resect !!

[@paulgee8253]

MacArthur got a rematch.

[@sailordoc2818]

‘ Rifle and Bayonet soldiering’ 👍🏽 subcontinental armies are still trained for this eventuality

[@sailordoc2818]

Nice talk

[@WW2TV]

Thanks for the nice comment, and if you haven't already, please make sure you subscribe to WW2TV and perhaps consider becoming a member? kzbin.info/door/UC1nmJGHmiKtlkpA6SJMeAjoin

[@KozumeWasTaken]

Ive recently just gotten invested in the burma campaign due to being (Karen) and hearing stories such as Hugh Seagrims time in Burma. Having no prior knowledge, its quite cool knowing that my grandfather was named after a british officer, named after Win Gate.

[@trevorfuller1078]

Would a better comparison of characters (Leaving aside all national & political issues or contexts!), to successfully perform another related role(s) be to consider was the possibility of Slim to have been another possible replacement for Eisenhower, as supreme commander in NW Europe, if a Wingate, Gott, or Yamamoto type air crash or similar fatal or life-changing incident had occurred to him (Eisenhower)? This is purely posited as a hypothetical question to determine the likely personality-types with the appropriate knowledge, background, mental-acuity, skill-sets including highly-developed “people-skills,” & proven-abilities to replace him in an emergency or critical situation, & knowing how events subsequently turned out, to have assumed control in Eisenhower’s place at SHAEF, in 1944-45?

[@shumyinghon]

Slim was a realist, Wingate was more of an idealist

[@saltyroe3179]

The fall of Singapore was led by General Yamashida. Not only was he brilliant above any other Japanese General, he was a member of the opposition political party. Tojo picked Y because Tojo expected Y to fail and commit suicide.

[@donnagreer6558]

My g.. uncle George McAlister's fought in the 14 th army I would love the new year as he would get pissed and tell you some of his storys he was in the KOSBs he definitely had p.d.s.d. but if you talked about feeling's then you were a poof but he was a pure nutcase at funeral they said when he got back home he never Left Glasgow.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

Between Slim, Richard O Connor, and Montgomery who would you rate as Britains best general of WW2?

[@soultraveller5027]

Then WW2 Field marshal Slim is the most revered British general in modern British generalship, he's portrait hands alone in the British officer academy at Sandhurst . Napoleon Bonaparte, was quoted as saying after being informed of a capable French general, you might like to consider he's reply was "" Yes but is he a lucky general,""

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

There was a commander who served under Slim named "Punch'. Anyone know his full name so we can search him? Evidently a key person in all this.

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

Major General DT Punch Cowan, I think of the Gorkhas. GOC 17 Indian Division, part of Slim's Burma Corps 1942.

[@Dive-Bar-Casanova]

@@kuldipsinghbrar5859 Thank you.

[@johnschuh8616]

Excellent @@kuldipsinghbrar5859

[@vinniethefinger7781]

Has anyone ever done a deep dive into the West African's bit during the war? Been looking for a book titled "The Jeep Track" the story of the 81st West African Division fighting on the Arakan front in Burma. That is one hard book to find. Not a ton of info on these units. I did find a video here on YubTub that is interesting as you get to hear from a few vets that people here may have seen. Title: Destination Burma (World War II Documentary) | Real Stories. kzbin.info/www/bejne/b56zdHd8falmfM0 I found the Burma Campaign Memorial Library book online at SOAS University of London.

[@WW2TV]

Not yet, but it's on my list

[@jacktattis]

Slim did not like special Forces as they took the best soldiers out of the regular Army units

[@saltyroe3179]

This is UK centric and essentially anti USA. The UK could not have victorious in Burma without the USA help. Part of the problem was the attempt by the UK maintain it's colonial empire as opposed to defeating the Japanese.

[@WW2TV]

You're judging based on this one show. This was with a British historian talking about two British Commanders, it wasn't meant to discuss the USA. We have done many shows with American historians talking about the American role. Check the interviews with James Zobel, John McManus and Ian Toll for example. We have also presented the Australian and Philippines points of view

[@Cromwelldunbar]

And extremely few writing about the East African campaign…indeed I reckon few have even ever heard of it…Poor but brave and stalwart Wavell…RIP…a really great general..Who knows not to say respects Keren? Oh it’s El Alemein all the way…but Keren lasted six weeks …And what of all the Vichy French bonehead governors throughout the moribund French Empire…at Djibouti…closing the Red Sea to all trade shipping…And here we go, poor old Wingate, just because he held close to religious conviction….God bless him! RIP

[@WW2TV]

Not sure what point you are making, but thanks for watching

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

Monty in Burma would not have been as successful as Slim was.

[@WW2TV]

That I agree with. I also don't know that Slim was suited to NW Europe. With his language and In-Country knowledge he was suited to Burma

[@razgriz9146]

​@@WW2TV Montgomery very honestly wasn't suited to any Theater of War in WWII and the Western Allies would've been infinitely better off sticking him in a purely administrative position far away from the frontlines, as far as I'm personally concerned. Just looking at his failure to open up the Scheldt Estuary right as soon as Antwerp had been liberated and secured with its fully-intact, fully-functional, fully-operational and ready for immediate logistical duties while he had the chance (resulting in what would've and should've been a literal cakewalk for the First Canadian Army while it was lightly-defended devolving into an absolute bloodbath once the German 15th Army reinforced it) alone more than proves this, in my humble opinion.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@@razgriz9146 The Scheldt was opened up though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Scheldt

[@jamesbinns8528]

That guy is interesting, no doubt, but good Lord the guy never takes a breath!

[@WW2TV]

Me or Robert?

[@dougc2568]

Wingate's reputation as mad may be more a result of his suicide attempt post-Ethiopia...?

[@jamesbinns8528]

Most bits that I've read about Wingate makes him appear that he was bi-polar. I'm not a doctor. That's just my impression.

[@leepretorius4869]

@@jamesbinns8528some combination of personality disorders, maybe schizoid too.

[@brucewalker5890]

Certainly eccentric.

[@spudGeorge]

Sliding the images left and right is irritating

[@WW2TV]

Okay

[@spudGeorge]

Here,here!

[@petewood2350]

Bill Slim is one of my inspirational hero's, In my view Wingate was a Dangerous Idiot that threw away men's lives.

[@TheEntilza]

Wingate was not a very likeable man and a lot of those who didnt like him disparaged and liabled him after his death, including Sims. Wingate never threw anyone's life away

[@penduloustesticularis1202]

Every time I chop Onions I think of Orde Wingate.

[@camberweller]

Anyone who took a look at how Leese handled the Canadians in Italy would have learned quite well in advance of Burma that he was a second-rater who thought he was a first-rater, unerringly wed to his own first impressions of anything. He was a mediocrity with no ability to understand or command anything that didn't fit within his narrow scope. The Canadians fought differently than the British? Well that made them bad soldiers. Slim didn't fit the traditional mold of what Leese thought was a proper British officer? Well that made him a bad general.

[@WW2TV]

Leese would be worthy of a show on WW2Tv at some point

[@camberweller]

@@WW2TV I would gladly watch it. Always open to learning more. Lease is one of those characters who doesn't seem to come across well in any of the very different and books that I have read.

[@kuldipsinghbrar5859]

Gen Sir Oliver Leese, Monty's favourite boy.

[@nbvhoho2738]

Wingate why buried at arlington and not in uk

[@WW2TV]

They were initially buried at Imphal, but because the air crew victims of the crash were American the decision was made to move them to the USA. United States law required the repatriation of American service members killed and temporarily buried overseas during World War II. Instances in which remains could not be individually identified were difficult when multiple nationalities were involved.In January 1947 the U.S. government proposed that all remains in such cases be returned to the United States for final burial. Negotiations with the U.K. and other Commonwealth governments led to an agreement that when group burials contained a majority of British remains, final disposition would be determined by the British. If the majority of the remains were American, all remains in the group would be returned to the U.S. for burial. Prior consultation with family members was prohibited in either case. Their remains of course are intermingled.

[@jimm6095]

Arnhem was "brilliant"?

[@MegaBloggs1]

nah monty wouldnt have worked in burma-he didnt have the empathy for the indian(et al) soldiers that slim did

[@matthewashman1406]

um what woman fought in Burma? Or is that just a political remark?

[@WW2TV]

Women were in service in all theatres

[@matthewashman1406]

@@WW2TV as soldiers?

[@WW2TV]

In uniform in service yes