Smyth Busters: Is it Ethical To Hunt Deer With a .223?

.30-30 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, and .308 Winchester are some of the all-time most popular deer-hunting cartridges in the United States. See a pattern? Yep, they're all larger calibers than .223. A lot of hunters - and state game departments - have long believed the .223 Remington round doesn't have enough power to consistently and ethically take down a whitetail deer. "Au contraire," say Brownells Gun Techs™ Caleb and Steve, aka the Smyth Busters, it all boils down to the TYPE of ammunition and the SKILL of the shooter. A hunter who can't land his shot properly will fail to make a clean kill with a large caliber just as easily as with a smaller one. A .223 Remington hunting bullet designed to EXPAND on impact is perfectly capable to dropping a whitetail quickly and cleanly, assuming you land it in the right vital spot. "Don't go out there with military ball ammo and expect great results," says Uncle Steve. Caleb concurs: leave the "penetrator" M855 5.56 NATO at home! You need a bullet that will expand to cause maximum tissue damage. In fact, some states have recognized the advances in .223 cartridge development and now allow it for deer hunting. So the myth is BUSTED. You can use .223 on deer under the right circumstances.

[@LifeisGood-ye8rl]

“It doesn’t matter how big it is, it really comes down to where you put it” that’s the code I live by. Many women have disagreed. I am alone and have my guns to comfort me

[@fodderforfreedom4020]

Underrated comment.

[@Of-AgeConsentingNon-Related]

😎 👍

[@bryandale7125]

Said another immature little boy

[@mieszkowrobel2274]

It's too big if you put it in the wrong place that's for sure

[@TheHarryChase]

Hilarious🤣

[@ItchyPilauBoto]

I gotta step it up a notch i think.. Im seeing more and more deer starting to wear kevlar vests.

[@Crangaso]

#Classic Anti 2A Politicians / Biden: "You don't need weapons of war." Ukrainian Government: "Citizens come get your free Fully Automatic Assault Rifles."

[@falconcowboy9995]

Hahahahahaha😆😆😆

[@falconcowboy9995]

L.G.B.😆😆😆

[@zspud21]

C'mon man!

[@jimsiress9687]

👍😅

[@Osprey78]

Shot placement is King, caliber is Queen.

[@Dcm193]

Bullet construction is queen. Eldm any day.

[@bobstevens7028]

And shot distance is the Dictator because it controls the energy that the round hits with. A .223 from a 24 inch barrel is a completely different beast at 40 yards versus 300 yards, in fact there is a night and day difference in energy!!

[@jimmyjohnson7041]

@@bobstevens7028 Dead is dead ! Accuracy is king !

[@josh2711]

@@bobstevens7028I agree distance is the dictator… if a person hunts in a woods and never sees deer past 100yds then 223 is plenty. If a person hunts an open marsh or field and can shoot at 400yds then 556 is completely unethical.

[@bobstevens7028]

@@jimmyjohnson7041 And the deer may not die or die humanely with a .223 if hit in the right spot at 550 yards because the bullet has very little kinetic energy at 550 yards. This is why we do not hunt deer with .22 lr. If placement was all that matters, we could just throw a small stone at the side of the deer and it should drop dead if we hit it right behind the shoulder. The reason why states have minimum caliber laws pertaining to deer hunting is because energy matters. Of course it's obvious that a high energy round that misses will not kill the deer so of course hitting it where you want is of paramount importance.

[@williambundick349]

In my one opinion shot placement is the most important part, followed by bullet type. I have personally seen game run off by bad shot placement. I am in Texas and have used .223 and 22/250 to harvest many animals over the years including wild boar

[@phild9813]

Great points, and I would add the most crucial aspect is the brain behind the firearm. RESTRAINT is the most important character of any hunter, but gets more and more important the smaller the caliber.

[@ThePatriotParadox]

I bow hunt, but if you have heart shot's you know you can make, I believe you can take turkey and deer with good 22 ammo

[@ThePatriotParadox]

@CLOV4R713 exactly, I don't even know about double lung, a good broadside heart shot is about the only way I'll send it at a deer. I love and respect them to much to do anything different. Now hunting turkeys are a little different.. lol but I still wanna get them close as possible.

[@bobstevens7028]

The distance of the shot is also a huge factor, there is a massive difference in the kinetic energy of a .223 round at 50 yards versus 300 yards. These rounds can take down almost anything aside from very large game at very close ranges but energy loss takes a big toll on capability at longer ranges. Barrel length also affects muzzle velocity which of course affects down range energy. There is more to this than just shot placement and bullet construction.

[@user-eg8hb8xt3j]

Lol if that was the case you could use this for giant bears …but should you ?

[@snakemanwilliams7231]

My wife’s first game animal ever taken was in Junction, Texas, using a Ruger M77 MKII chambered in 223. She was shooting a 55 grain Barnes Tipped Triple Shock and harvested a magnificent Blackbuck at 80 yards with one perfectly placed shot. Animal went down instantly and never got up again, one her proudest moments hunting as well as mine.

[@TerminalM193]

Headshot?

[@snakemanwilliams7231]

@@TerminalM193 It was a heart shot and he went down instantly but never got up again.

[@masterxiong7368]

Nice, 223 is perfectly fine. I hunt boars(and hybrid boar/pigs) that are hugh. No issues.

[@fredsasse9973]

I have the same rifle, SS, chambering 30-06. Congrats to your wife!

[@Kaktus965]

Does her chest hair get caught in her carhart zipper too?

[@alexbutler1944]

I took my first buck last December with a stock MP-15 Sport II + red dot. Went to a local gun shop, spent a fortune on the right ammo, spent several days making sure the red dot was sighted in, and put a beautiful lung shot down on that buck at around 75 yards. Died clean as hell, only ran about 30 yards before he dropped. No blood trail, and no over penetration, as we found most of the jacket just underneath the skin on the far side while butchering. And this was an estimated 4 year 10 pointer from southeast kansas too, not some scrawny little thing. My buddy's dad was laughing when he found out I was gonna use an AR. I was laughing when he helped load that buck into the back of my truck. 😎

[@summitgoons2744]

That's good 👍 I like your style 😎

[@blasterado8816]

This is one important point, to test the new ammo in your rifle to see how it's works.

[@benkanobe7500]

Ethical = Shot Placement. It is what separates those that "shoot dear" and those that are true hunters.

[@TerryLee04950]

I have always used my 35whelen that is not a long range shooter. This year as I get older (lazier at 72). This year i have tuned my ar15 5.56 in at 75 using Barnes 70 grain copper bullet. The 🍎 orchard I hunt the longest shot is 75 yards. Anything past that I say it’s your lucky day, see you next year. With a good sight mark red dot i’m placing three shots within a two inch group at 75 yards. Or one dead 🦌.

[@JamesClark-ze6ft]

The .223 Fusion round is devastating.

[@hairydogstail]

I watched a A-hole hunter repeatedly shoot at an elk and wound it. I tracked the wounded elk the next morning as it was too late in the day to track it. I found the elk and dispatched it and found it had been shot 3 times with FMJ 30caliber bullets. The one wound in the hind quarter had very little blood shot and most of the meat was salvageable.. Bullet selection is very important no matter what caliber...

[@robaldridge6505]

a few years ago a hunter shot an elk cow that looked 'sick' turned out it had been shot 11 times with a .223 and not killed, lets leave .22s to SMALL GAME not big game, .25s are REALLY the minimum regardless of shot placement a tiny lil 50 grain bullet is NOT reliable on a 200 pound animal, .223/5.56 NATO was designed to WOUND 100 pound smaller stature asian people..

[@hairydogstail]

@@robaldridge6505 I agree, you need a heavy bullet to penetrate and open up with bigger animals. I have always used Nosler Partitions with great success. Until bullets got better, I frowned on the 270 for elk. I have seen those bullets explode and wound Elk back in my youth..The 5.56 works great for a military round or perhaps in a survival situation with a head shot but it is most definitely not a big game cartridge...

[@sokyoutdoors588]

@@robaldridge6505 5.56 was not designed to wound anyone. That in itself is a myth. It was designed to allow a soldier to carry twice as much ammo for the same weight. The reasoning was studies of Korean firefights found most soldiers were not aiming to kill their adversary. I forget exactly how many rounds were fired to to kill 1 enemy soldier but looking at the numbers the decision makers at the Pentagon decided the troops needed to be carrying more ammo.

[@robaldridge6505]

@Java N. Lava OR you pierce its ear or blow its jaw off... use enough gun....

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

@@robaldridge6505 I think hes just being hypothetical...

[@celmer6]

223 Remington works great on Whitetail deer down here in Texas. It's been my favorite deer cartridge for 32 years now.

[@jthrelf]

Good point about location. Southern whitetail are not the same as Canadian or Wisconsin whitetail..... they more north you go the beefier they get.

[@robaldridge6505]

@@jthrelf I've seen those 60 lb. 'deer' down south, I've seen 250+ lb. mule deer up here in Montana and some spots here the whitetails are just as big,no way I'd use anything under 150 grains because it works..

[@BCM1959]

@@robaldridge6505 the blacktail around here are nicknamed " garden goats " 100 pounds of meat is a big one.

[@TerminalM193]

Care to share your round of choice? I've had moderate success with PMC 55g bronze soft point.

[@celmer6]

@@TerminalM193 55gr Hornady VX is my favorite for accuracy and extreme rapid expansion.

[@audikid89]

I absolutely love the Smith buster episodes very informative and even more so entertaining

[@NightWolfBiker]

I once thought 30-06 was the ideal caliber for deer, 10 years later I think I could have chosen more wisely. When you're more worried about caliber than shot placement it's time to revisit priorities.

[@Glock2201]

Why can't you be concerned about both? I use a 30-06 and I try my best to make a good clean shot. I also realize that things can happen out of my control that will make the shot not perfect.

[@stevenbrown6079]

I grew up shooting deer with my dad's 1903 Springfield. STILL LIKE IT BETTER THAN MY MOMS 3O3 British. The kick on that was more my 12-year-old frame liked.

[@randommodnar7141]

@@Glock2201 yea definitely agree with the "things out of my control" part. The margin of error for a shot to become unethical is so much bigger with that smaller caliber, and we don't control all the conditions in nature. What you think may be a good shot can turn bad much quicker with 223.

[@justacentrist4147]

​@@stevenbrown6079 303 recoils less than 30-06. Might have had more to do with the weight of the rifles in question

[@M81_WOODLAND]

You need to be concerned about BOTH. It isn't an either/or argument.

[@artvandelay9374]

Great show ! You two are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Brownells rocks 🤘🏼🇺🇸🤘🏼

[@austinhuber3131]

Some people just can't be convinced that the amount of damage a bullet causes isn't necessarily tied to its size and that 223 is therefore a glorified varmint round. A cursory knowledge of ballistics will tell you that almost all projectiles going over 2200 feet per second will cause a massive permanent cavity much larger than the bullet itself. Having said that, if one engages at a range that wastes that speed advantage, one risks underwhelming cavitation that would require skillful shot placement to negate.

[@mr.happyfunguy3772]

Any chance you can cut that down 20 words so I can get in one screenshot?! Outstanding statement!

[@mr.happyfunguy3772]

Never mind we got it!

[@groofromtheup5719]

No 223 will leave near as impressive of a wound as a larger and more powerful round. A more powerful round will turn bone fragments into shrapnel. I remember 1 buck I shot with my 270 through the shoulder blade, left a hole in the ribcage that you could put your fist through. Its a matter of odds. risk an increase chance of losing the deer for less destruction, then you go with a smaller round.

[@austinhuber3131]

@@groofromtheup5719 The advantage of larger calibers like 270 and 308 is their ability to maintain the advantage provided by their superior ballistics for a longer range with the right ammo. Heavier calibers have the advantage of penetrating deeper through solid objects easier, which is why heavy grain projectiles are preferred for big game. Having said that, at the right range a 223 will absolutely deliver a comparable wound channel to a 270, but 270 is generally preferred because it can deliver that impressive cavitation at a much farther distance, not because it is significantly so much bigger.

[@bobstevens7028]

You are the first guy on here Austin to mention the "what should have been obvious factor" of shot distance. All bullets lose energy with distance and the .223 is one of the worst because commonly used bullets have lousy BC values. A .223 from a 24 inch barrel is a completely different beast at 40 yards versus 300 yards, in fact there is a night and day difference in energy!! I am shocked that the "expert panel" on the video above made no mention of what we can rightly call "the significant obvious".

[@paulmoss7940]

I have seen many whitetails dropped in their tracks with a .22lr anywhere from 10 feet to about 70 yards. Rarely did one escape. Tested equipment and good shooters. If you know , you know.

[@BCM1959]

Five blacktail. Longest was about 40 yards. All head shots. One jumped and hit the ground dead, the others dropped where they stood. Scoped Marlin Glenfield model 60. The first one I had in the sights I did not shoot, I went and asked my dad if a headshot would work or not. He said it would if I thought I was a good enough shot. I see in the comments that some people will not believe this for some reason but I totally believe you because I know for a fact that it is more than possible. As to the ethics of it does my confidence in my ability with that weapon make it ok? IDK they are tasty though. I'm a lot older now and not sure of my skill so it most likely will not happen again. Edit: oh yeah, I wasn't hunting, they were eating our fruit and even hitting them with rocks didn't help. Shoot one every three years or so makes the others skittish and we get to harvest some plums and peaches.

[@silversurfer806]

Seen many shot in the neck with a 22 magnum.

[@BillyBob-il8ot]

Model 60, 4x scope, 40 gr bullet, 14 yrs old, 40-50 yd, ear hole dropped instantly. My father whooped my butt, I wasn't permitted to shoot a deer without my father and 30-30. Them was the rules. Later @ 17, took a buck with a Savage 22-250 50 gr @ 130-140 yds, base of head/neck, waited 20 minutes for still deer and wind, left rear angle, never forget those two shots...

[@joracer1]

The problem with ethics is some people think they're all experts on ethics, when they usually are just ego driven snobs. Fact some people are unethical with a 30-06 but then want to call out and try to berate hunters that have successfully taken dozens of w/t deer without a lost animal with a .223 or .22-250 or what ever. Imo if one can cleanly take an animal without its undue suffering its ethical period. Whether he using a sling shot or a Canon. However if one loses an animal for what ever reason, then doesn't correct his problem be it bad shot, bad bullet or whatever, then that person becomes unethical no matter what they do. So there's no such thing as unethical caliber just unethical people.

[@benkanobe7500]

You said it perfectly and much better than I did.

[@agogecoach8790]

Well said! That sums it up nicely.

[@TerminalM193]

Perfectly said

[@dbry5572]

Just for the sake of debate, is 22lr ethical then for w/t deer?

[@benkanobe7500]

@@dbry5572 If you are good enough to get close enough and make a head shot, yes.

[@edhalson3154]

I shoot a Howa 1500 223 such as that in the video (I stand to be corrected!) and have shot many deer with it. For years the animal control hunters I know for the NZ Department of Conservation and the NZ Forrest service deer cullers used 223. Each shooter I ever met were extremely accurate shooters and had to present the animal tails to prove their kills. Nowadays, the DOC shooters use suppressors to preserve their hearing but still use 223's in our area! With good training, practice and only shooting within the specific kills zones, 223 is as deadly a rifle as I will ever need! Good discussion and on point!

[@theparalexview785]

Years ago my grandad talked about the Marlin 1892 he'd inherited from his father, who had used it to hunt Texas deer (which often aren't very large). I'd assumed it was a .30-30. After grandad died I retrieved the Marlin from the closet to clean and oil it in preparation for my dad to pick it up after the funeral. Imagine my surprise to discover it was a .32 convertible, with both firing pins still with the rifle, along with a few boxes of .32 centerfire and rimfire, in short, long and long rifle. There was a suede leather pouch of rimfire cartridges and I fired a few, which still worked and hit point of aim out the the 75 yard distance from our porch to lake front. I'm assuming my great grandfather used the .32 long rifle for deer hunting, but who knows. Not ideal for mule deer, but adequate for our small white tail deer within 100 yards.

[@donhinkle3693]

Keep the Smyth Busters coming!

[@bikerbernie821]

I've often wondered the same thing... Thank you so much for doing this video

[@mtower235]

Skill, range, bullet design and a lot of other factors come into play. I use it a lot but I also use 30-06 and 6.5 Grendel.

[@roykiefer7713]

Gentlemen, I GREATLY enjoy your “Smyth Busters” videos, but when I read today’s title my immediate thought was,” these guys are brave, knowingly, kicking this “hornets’ nest.” However, I happen to agree fully with you conclusions . . .and my agreement is based on using a 16 inch barrel, 1:8 twist rate, Ruger Gunsite Scout bolt action rife to harvest two deer in recent years, neither of which moved even 15 yards after being hit by a single projectile. As you indicated, ammunition choice is crucial and I used (if my memory is correct) Hornady Black 75 grain 5.56 NATO loads. The entirely valid conclusion - precisely what you fellows indicated - is know your abilities, use appropriate ammunition, and hit your target accurately. If a hunter does so - and doesn’t seek overly long range kills - the .223/5.56 is entirely ethical.

[@MichaelWilson-xj4wz]

I harvested a white tale buck at just over 200yrds. It was a double lung shot with a 55gr V- max. He dropped in his tracks and when I dressed him out there was nothing in the soup in the chest cavity larger than my little fingernail. SHOT PLACEMENT!!!!

[@fastvega]

Loaded some Barnes GMX bullets in .223 for my granddaughter's Savage Axis youth model. Dropped a 4 point buck with 1 shot in it's tracks. Bullet selection is #1 when using marginal calibers, as well as shot placement.

[@hunterman600cc]

We've all heard the stories from an uncle or grand parent from all over the country from Oregon to Appalachia about how they saved the family from starving using a 22 and some patience. Bet they'd have given a toe or two for a 223.

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

Odds are though for that one shot, they had 5 bad shots... they were acting out of desperation, which is a situation beyond what this covers.

[@jimmyjohnson7041]

I use a 22 long rifle.......sub-sonics all the time to remove deer from my property. Great out to 125 yards. ( bullet drop of 14 inches zeroed at 50 yards ) Biggest problem is.........often they dont leave. My goal is......they move on ! If anything more then a 22 long rifle is over kill !

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

@@jimmyjohnson7041 you shoot... The deer... and wound them?

[@jimmyjohnson7041]

@@Sure_You_Betcha I did state......I remove them ? Or.......they move on.........

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

@@jimmyjohnson7041 so again... You shoot them and wound them?

[@samuelcolt6670]

Was very happy to wake up and see this. Excellent topic to ponder over with my coffee. I live in Minnesota and though I'm not a hunter I shoot targets plenty, white tail seem pretty small in the grand scheme of things and .223 is one hell of a round for what it is. That's all I can say.

[@JAGraptor]

In researching on one of my dad's old guns that uses the 22 savage hi-power, the bullet itself was supposed to be the wonder cartridge for taking deer. Unfortunately, the round developed a reputation of wounding a deer but not immediately dropping a deer. Ammo like this were the reason that some states banned the use of .22 caliber cartridges for hunting deer. Steve and Caleb are correct in that with prober placement and the right gun a whitetail could be ethically killed, but the limitations of a .22 leave very little room for error.

[@-andy-rocketman8025]

Fantastically done, every word is so right

[@rufusrizzo78]

The importance of shot placement and Ability to place that shot, are followed by the knowledge of what your gun/ammo will do. Those two things are talked about far less than chambering or ammo choice. That is a big thing that's lost on the hunting community, but is coming more in the main stream now.

[@OProprioMatheusGarcia]

thanks for the video! that's the exact same question I had.

[@hopewilliams6705]

Great topic

[@sonsofliberty3081]

Depends on how well you shoot. If you're dropping dimes or quarters at 250yds, then obviously you'd be fine with it. Remember, people shoot deer all the time with a long bow or even a 50lb compound with static broad heads. I've seen them drop with 9mm and 40s&w as well at 40yds and loose blood rapidly. It's not the freedom stick, it's the shooter.

[@bobstevens7028]

There is dramatic energy loss of a .223 round at 250 yards. It generally is not good practice to shoot deer with round with less than 850 ft-lb kinetic energy. A .223 from a 24 inch barrel is a completely different beast at 40 yards versus 300 yards, in fact there is a night and day difference in energy!! One of the reasons that people use much more powerful rounds than .223 to hunt medium game or medium-large game is not because they are definitely needed to take an elk at say 40 yards, it's because they are needed to take an elk at 375 yards after air resistance has taken a large chunk of your muzzle energy away.

[@chuckydubree1925]

So if your inside 200 yards u should be good with good ammo?

[@tedh7543]

64 grain Federal Power Shock works great on whitetail with good shot placement of course. I've used it with great success and plan to have my kids use it when they're old enough to hunt.

[@colenorris8463]

I like that, "but not everybody can" my AR got its first this season and I had allot of people doubting it but that round impressed me, solid neck shot didn't go anywhere but down

[@jamesharrison2374]

In Germany many .222 Remington were used for deer, shot placement, and the shorter ranges from a deer stand is normal shots over 75-100 meters is uncommon.

[@GUNSnARMYRN]

Plus the deer there are much smaller. Lol. When I lived there I thought it was a bunch of dogs in the early morning in a farmers field when I first saw them.

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

@@GUNSnARMYRN same things noticeable when you go from North to South in the US...

[@Forwardoperationbase]

I love watching you guys

[@RME1911]

You know I use to really think, especially with both smaller and larger calibers regardless of shot placement that “Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”.. that being said, If I can get quality ammunition with improved design and technology for hunting unlike what we had available for these calibers years ago, I’m all for it! I will definitely take the price on smaller caliber hunting ammunition over big bore hunting ammunition all day long not to mention I can certainly have the opportunity to shoot more with that cost difference, that’s huge!

[@libertarian1637]

My uncle swore that his 20” AR was the best rifle for everything, including hunting; he took a many deer with it, all with head or neck shots. I was raised to go for the heart and with my 300 WMR would usually have to track them further than him, though that still wasn’t too far. His meat and pelt was always pristine though, which always mattered more to him as it was about using the deer not mounting it. I did envy the simple one gun mentality as I had more and gad to load ammo for them.

[@shacklord]

Humans used to harvest deer with sharpened wooden sticks with fire hardened tips.

[@mieszkowrobel2274]

Bravo, good stuff gentlemen

[@edwardhoward4708]

Well said.

[@themightypen1530]

Shot placement is King.

[@nealjustus9500]

not going to lie i was expecting a longer video on the reason why someone might not or why someone would prefer it over a larger caliber but i am not disappointed

[@bigosbro21]

"It doesn't matter how big the caliber is. It really comes down to where you put it." - Caleb Savant I expected to see so many more comments about this and the fact that Caleb said it with a straight face and probably didn't think twice about it. There may be hope for us yet 🤣

[@mattfleming86]

Me (looks in cabinet and freezer) Yup. 62gr Gold Dots have been fantastic performers for me and make my little 16" lightweight gun very very effective meat harvesting tool.

[@davehunt8088]

Well covered.Shot placement with a good expandable bullet!Let's make some chilli.

[@jotapezanelatto]

few time I comment... but this time is a must... Its up to the shooter, not to the enginner, to place the shot

[@wystock2692]

Gun advice, great. Gun advice from Ed Grimley, excellent.

[@brianhoxworth3881]

If you go by the 1000ft pound rule, 223 looses that energy at 100 or so yrds.

[@bobstevens7028]

Thanks Brian, you are one of only a few people on here who even took into account bullet energy which is of course largely controlled by shot distance. The guys who made the video missed this key point entirely so they get a D grade at best. I am not sure how shooting experts could completely neglect bullet energy loss with distance but they did. One of the reasons that people use much more powerful rounds on medium or medium-large game is not because they are definitely needed to take an elk at say 40 yards, it's because they are needed to take an elk at 350 yards after air resistance has robbed you of a good portion of the original muzzle energy.

[@JohnnyReb2000]

Personally, I wouldn't use .223 to hunt whitetails unless my life depended on it, as there are better options out there, but as mentioned, shot placement and bullet type are at least as much of factors (if not bigger factors) as the caliber choice. That being said, if I could only own one rifle, I'd probably go with .308 since it has a longer effective range if I had to make a longer shot, but I could also make that rifle an AR Platform so that it would be more effective as a tactical rifle.

[@unicornsteaks6769]

But what if your only rifle was an AR-15 in .223/5.56 with a scope and you wanted to hunt deer. That would be me, though I haven't shot any animal with it.

[@ElessarEstel]

​​@@unicornsteaks6769 223 is fine. just use soft point ammo and put your shot reliably in the vital area. My hunting rifle is an AR in 5.56/223. As long as your state allows it, it's perfectly fine. I know some old timers that used to take deer with 22lr if that tells you anything.

[@bobstevens7028]

Guys, the shot distance is a huge factor in a round's energy, and thus its capability to do damage. A .223 round from a 24 inch barrel is a completely different beast at 40 yards versus 300 yards, in fact there is a night and day difference in energy!! A well constructed .223 bullet for deer like the 64 grain Win powerpoint will drop deer nicely within 80 yards or so with well placed shots. I would not be doing this though at 350 yards.

[@ElessarEstel]

@@bobstevens7028 agreed. I typically shoot within 100 yards. My rifle is only even zeroed to 100 because the vegetation is so dense where I live that it's almost unimaginable that I would ever even be able to see an animal outside of that distance.

[@scottfreeman258]

I’ve taken plenty of deer with .223 and plenty with 30-06. All of them 1 shot kills (unlike several I’ve shot with both 12 and 20 gauge) I would argue that unless you are shooting 400 yards then the 223 is a better deer round than the 30-06. Less recoil, cheaper practice sessions, lighter carrying weight, flatter shooting, plenty of torque. At 300 meters a 60g nosler BT going 3100fps at the muzzle is still going 2100fps and has 600 ft/lbs of energy. That’s a dead deer all day.

[@SteaminPile]

Thank you

[@alandaniels7571]

My son’s, grandsons, granddaughters and I have never lost a mule deer using 223. We have about 50 kills over the years. Almost always clean one shot kills. The place we most often hunt requires for safety a lighter bullet that does not carry as far if it passes through or glances off something ( farm land). The reduced noise was also important, but now we only hunt with suppressors. We have always gotten full penetration and full expansion. We do limit our shots to under 200 yards as the power drops of fast after that.

[@onpsxmember]

Over here in heavily restricted Germany, .223/5.56mm calibre is seen as suitable for white tail equivalent but nothing bigger. Overall there are energy threshold rules to also include variables like barrel length. 1000 Joules at 100m distance approved by the ammo manufacturer is the minimum (1356 foot pounds at 109 yards rounded).

[@groofromtheup5719]

you converted wrong. 1000 joules is 738 ft-lbs. I've generally heard you should have 500-800 ft-lbs on the target as a minimum.

[@rikertvonfulton16]

There is a US service man making videos on hunting in Germany. It sounds like a process but he said the hunting was fantastic.

[@jaebee3313]

Long before I came along, my father and his friends formed their own Illinois hunting club called the “Triple Deuce” club back in the 1950’s. The group deer hunted exclusively with rifles chambered for the then new .222 Remington. ( 40-50 grain varmint round. ) By comparison I certainly understand how a more powerful 75 grain bonded soft point .223 round will do the job with proper shot placement today. I still prefer my .270 for all things four legged, but I appreciate the myth busting!

[@themoderncowboy2701]

Whole heartedly agree. Between 4 legged critters and 2 legged critters, as long as you have a caliber capable of sufficient penetration, shot placement is the most important factor. Years ago, I dropped a deer without a single step, front facing shot, with a 147gr Federal HST fired out of a Sig Sauer P226 EE from about 35m. Between hogs and deer, one of my favorite rounds nowadays is a Black Hills 77gr OTM, or a MK262 variant. Absolutely fantastic performer on soft targets.

[@ezrabrooks12]

Good Video.

[@M_Pashby]

In the areas we hunt Whitetail, we were limited to shotguns and muzzle loaders for the longest time (straight wall cartridge rifles have recently been approved). The longest shots I anticipated were 150 yds. A .50 cal 295gr PowerBelt Aero Tip projectile can ruin everything in its path. However, poor placement of a heavy caliber expanding projectile at relatively close range can result in a clean through and through wound channel (just behind the diaphragm maybe, ask me how I know). Many of these rounds rely on impacting bone or dense tissue to function as advertised. The following shot was decisive. This little anecdote provided to emphasize the importance of practice and proficiency with your weapon. Knowing where the shot needs to land when a trigger is squeezed and reliably placing it there is the best way to ensure an ethical kill.

[@heathuntersfinland4001]

Nice video👍🏻

[@chrisgabbert658]

Bullet design has come a long way in the past few years.

[@JRTRAPP1]

Not really but the premium bullets have become more common and available in the past few years so more people are aware of them and using them.

[@chrisgabbert658]

@@JRTRAPP1 it’s just good marketing

[@pappamike6231]

Where I generally hunt it is shotgun only. Ton of great slugs to stop a whitetail in their tracks. Rifle hunting I use 30-30, 6.5 Creedmoor, 308., depending on the spot I'm hunting. But have dropped whitetails where they stand with .223 round of 50 grain Fiocchi Extrema rounds. Fast and lethal.

[@floridahdshooter]

Remember ladies... it is not how big the caliber ,it is where you put it that matters.

[@groofromtheup5719]

I've taken 1 deer with a 223. I was using Winchester hunting ammo. 64gr IIRC. The first shot hit a rib near the spine (from above) and blew up without any penetration. The second shot nicked the sternum and went the whole length of the deer to come out the inner thigh of the deer without the slightest hint of expansion. Luckily the heart was between those 2 points. I had bullet failures from both extremes into the same animal. Both shots would have been far more deadly with green tip. A green tip would have made it through the rib on the first shot and tumbled on the second shot. If I or one of my kids takes a 223 hunting in the future, it won't be with Winchester hunting ammo. The first shot would have been deadly with nearly any other centerfire rifle caliber.

[@middleclassthrash]

I support this content.

[@BadInfluence433]

A friend of mine was hunting squirrel with a .22LR with CCI Hypervelocity HP ammo, not sure what grain. A four point buck walked in front of him about 25 yards he says, and one shot to the head it dropped like a sack of potatoes. When I looked over the deer I couldn’t find an exit wound. I guess I could’ve possibly overlooked it, but three of us that were there must’ve also overlooked it, and to my knowledge he didn’t go poking around inside of the brain looking. He just done the work and put him in the freezer. I was surprised that he even took the shot but he said that it was standing perfectly still and in the perfect position so he couldn’t resist. Took place in Henry County Virginia. Happy trails fellas.

[@xringarcher1440]

Oh I know it can be used, though I haven’t used it myself. Federal makes their Fusion line of ammo that is specifically an electrochemically bonded bullet meant to expand and stay together, it is marketed for hunting. The box is even adorned with deer antlers. I have some in .223 as a home defense round myself, but it could definitely be used to take whitetail.

[@Yelladog78]

All I know is 8 years ago I switched to the 223 for deer , take high shoulder shots and haven't had one go 20 yards most less than 20 feet

[@LovingIdaho]

One of the rifle we use to hunt deer is a 223 . The first one shot was at 210 yards . When the deer was shot , there was no flinch from the deer that you always see when they get shot . I thought it was a miss at first and I worked the bolt and got another bullet ready . The deer started to take a step and collapsed . When I field dressed it , the heart had been blown to pieces . The bullet was hornady vmax .

[@ETHRON1]

In my state, you can use .223 or 5.56 but it's illegal to use full metal jacket ammo, it has to be a soft point or polymer tip...

[@JT_70]

I’m a long-time (i.e, old guy) diehard 30-06 shooter though I have a .223 AR15 on order for home defense. Son and his wife hunt with and have killed lots of whitetails with their 30-30, 30-06, 300 WSM, .223. 6.5 Grendel and 7mm-08 (his daughter). His favorite for woods or tree stand hunting is the 223. For long shots of 300-400 yds it’s the 300 WSM.

[@UncleStevie8er]

I use a Colt Sporter clone with 20" barrel. I like it because it's weather proof, accurate and the round doesn't bounce around the woods after a shot. I use a 55gr Nosler ballistic tip loaded to 3150fps. I take whitetails under 150 yards (that's the max I can see in the woods) just as well as I did with a.308. If I'm on the edge of a field I grab one of those 30 cal AR platform rifles for the long shot.

[@Sure_You_Betcha]

The way I see it is while 223 is 100 percent capable of taking deer with good shot placement and the right projectile but Ive seen SOOOOOOOO many people say "oh Im a good shot", then at barely hit the target at 50yds, that I don't trust most people to ethically hunt with 223.

[@What-is-happening]

I have taken three deer with .223. Two fell within ten yards one went about thirty yards and I did shoot that one a second time but after examination I didn’t really need to. Conversely I shot a buck (that was fighting and wound up tight) three times in the vitals with a .30-06 using 150gr Sierra soft point game kings and it still ran 200+ yards chasing the buck it was fighting. It was like the first two shots missed they both ran on the third shot. I could see blood pouring out both sides when I shot him the third time. I knew I hadn’t missed but he just stood there pawing the ground. What I’m getting at is sometimes the deer does have a say no matter how big the gun or the shot placement.

[@herbderbler1585]

Wild animals are on a completely different level compared to most humans when it comes to pain tolerance and absolute refusal to give up until the bitter end. Our heads are full of philosophy and morality and doubt, but the only thing animals really know is survival. They'll do absolutely anything they can, and it's sometimes shocking to see what they'll endure without losing their will. Ethical hunting is a never-ending challenge and many people fail to respect that by recognizing their own limitations and the limitations of the animals they're pursuing. I think channels like this and comments like yours are a great resource for better understanding that challenge, especially in this time with so many new gun owners joining the community, many of them with a mind to take up hunting.

[@brainplay8060]

Texas AR15 hunter here. I've dropped countless deer and wild hogs using .223. I previously used .243 and .270 with .270 being my generic go to. I've noticed that anything larger than a .30-30 is pretty much overkill. If you can get a double lung penetration from an oblique angle then it's ethical. A full double penetration is best for tracking as it leaves a large blood trail. Caliber is everything. Even before the ammo shortage jacking up prices I remember spending piles of money for a single box of CoreLokt or Power Points and cringing every time I went to test my rifle's zero. Many people who used .223 would often cheap out on their ammo. Imagine using a .270 with FMJ's. It would ice pick it's way through the deer as it isn't designed to yaw nor expand. Today I use Barnes TSX out of a 16in barrel. I get full pass throughs with a nice wound cavity. The difference between it and a .243 is not that great. It's really shocking at how little difference you'll see. On a deer the exit wound usually looks like it slightly larger than 1 inch. There are no issues with a double penetration. For pigs I get a pass through every so often depending on the size. Less so with the 250lbs pigs. However, in all cases the bullet is usually lodged in the skin or gristle on the other side meaning that it passed through one side and tore through the vital organs in the thoracic cavity just fine. 20in barrels usually have no issues getting a double penetration. In all circumstances the pigs die. The only difference being that you get a smaller blood trail. Neck shots for either barrel size are instant death. I would reckon that varmint rounds like the V-max would do well in neck shots due to the explosive expansion but I'm just guessing. Once again, ammo type is key. We pay lots of cash for good expanding bullets. You should do the same for an AR15.

[@MichaelRoachDavid]

I settled on .223 with 77gr HPBT within 50 to 75 yards. Alternatively, I'm more confident with 6.8 SPC II and 350 Legend

[@philippicphilodox888]

In my state, it is illegal to take deer with anything under .25 caliber. But I've been a bow hunter and have had to take a pass on MANY shot opportunities because I wasn't 100% certain of the shot presented for whatever reason. As Det. H. Callahan once said, "a good man always knows his limitations." And a good man is an ethical man.

[@mblake0420]

Are you sure? Most laws I've seen say .25 rim fired

[@olddirtyburt7522]

This ain’t your daddy’s ammo production anymore. Not new Ammo, unless you use a legacy Remington round with science from the 50’s . I would have no problem taking a deer with a good 5.56 round of todays ammo. Hell, I stopped hunting whitetail decades ago. I know what the rounds can do and will do. And yes with a 5.56, I would not be taking the shot beyond 150 yards. I want that velocity to do it’s magic

[@philippicphilodox888]

Blake, I looked it up since I was going by memory (which definitely ain't what it used to be). The regulations actually specify .240 caliber and above for big game. So I stand corrected. However, .223/5.56 still doesn't make the cut. But that means 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5 Grendel are GTG. Hmmm...I might have to look into getting a new upper.

[@groofromtheup5719]

.25acp FTW!

[@davidbryngelson938]

These smaller calibers are very appealing especially with the light recoil. Bullets for deer are much easier to locate as well. I parked my 30-06 years ago.

[@TheYellowBastard76]

It’s not like you’re shooting deer every weekend. I rather use my 30-06 over a .223 for deer any day of the week. A couple ammo boxes would last a lot. Less margin of error with my 30-06

[@tonydeaton1967]

Within certain limits, yes. Shot placement is everything. I've done it many times.

[@S1L3NTG4M3R]

THANKS

[@libertycosworth8675]

I am not a hunter. I am now primarily a target shooter, with a focus on self defense. I have taken a hunter education class, and I am very familiar with a wide variety of firearms. Caleb and Steve have this one absolutely correct. True high velocity small bore rifles would and do make very capable and reliable deer hunting rifles, and with the correct ammo selection are just as forgiving with shot placement as most larger caliber rounds would be. Having said that, I have seen folks at the public range sighting in their "Deer" gun (30-06, 308, 300 Win Mag, 30/30) who weren't even getting a basketball hoop sized group at 25 yards, let alone at 50 or 100 - oh and this was often with a scope. I would hear remarks like, "wow how do you get all of your hits on target so close at a target so far away" - I usually answer I have had good training in the fundamentals. Keep in mind that this is a 100 yard range, and I have shot (and had pretty good groups) with iron sights out to 700 with an M1A.

[@CATmover1]

Just today, I harvested a South Georgia buck with my Ruger mini 14 chambered in .223. Having harvested most of my deer using 30-06 and 30-30, I was skeptical about the effectiveness of this round. I placed one Winchester XP 64 grain projectile at the base of the skull where it intersects the neck. This 170lbs buck fell right in his tracks and never took another step. Upon examination of the wound, I found that it was massive and severed several cervical vertebrae. I am convinced that using the right combination of ammo and shot placement is an outstanding recipe! Ethical? You bet! ... meat in the freezer!

[@theturkeysopinion]

Would love to try it but my state is straight wall only. Works well on yotes though 🦃👊👍

[@pepepepert]

I think that is the stupidest rule I've ever heard of. I've never understood why.

[@bmpsjp24]

I’ve had good luck with my 223 hunting whitetail in Kentucky. I used 75 grain Speer gold dot. I’ve used 30-06 and 270 as well. In my experience the 130 grain 270 has dropped them where they stood but at the end of the day whether it was a 223 or 30-06 they all wound up in my freezer.

[@lordthunderchicken4636]

You hunt how you want to hunt, I'll hunt how I want to hunt.

[@leonardcianciotto547]

two does with Federal Fusion. One at 85 yards dropped in her tracks from a quartering to shot. The other at about 110 yards ran about 30 yards from a broadside shot. Used 16" AR with Burris RT-6

[@rmichaelzachary8574]

I suspect more people can ethically take a deer with .223/5.56N than can with a .375 H & H or .45 - 70. What the magnum craze demonstrated is that most people develop flinches and poor shooting skills when a rifle's recoil is more than they can handle. They also tend to shoot less so that they don't become proficient with their weapons. A lot of rifles capable of 1 MOA or less become 5 MOA+ in the wrong hands. Too much recoil, not enough marksmanship training. And moving living game is different than a paper target. For most shooters, especially new ones, even the .30 - 06 is too much recoil where a .308W or .270W is their recoil ceiling. Someone who can shoot a .223/5.56N 2 MOA or less with hundreds of rounds of practical training will tend to be a more ethical hunter than a "use 'nuff gun" 7mm Remmie fanatic who shoots on average less than 100 rounds a year. .223/5.56N within 150 yards with Winchester 64 grain Power Points will get the job done, and this round performs in 1:12 - 1:7 twist weapons with decent hunting accuracy. The 20th. century king of deer cartridges, the .30-30 Win., demonstrated most deer are harvested within 150 yards or less in North America. So using a .223/5.56N or even better 7.62x39 to hunt deer with the right bullets and shooter proficiency and training is perfectly acceptable in the 21st. century. Yes, Virginia, when you put a 5 round magazine in an AR or AK it becomes a hunting rifle. Even with a pistol grip or bayonet lug. Although I'd prefer more than a 5 round mag for personal defense. If all you have is an AR, AK, or 12 gauge pump, you're covered in being able to hunt deer. If you have the right ammo and do your part and become proficient with your weapon, that is. Probably the ideal deer caliber for most shooters in North America is either the 7mm - 08 or 6.5 Creedmoor, but either costs more to run and rifles chambered in these rounds are less practical for most home defense/hunter/hobby shooters.

[@earl-tf4qc]

Took my big 7 last year with a 55 grain Barnes tsx. Had used my 243 the year before. I shot another 7 with an 80 grain Barnes ttsx and he dropped. What I noticed was how impressive and massive the damage was, from entry to exit. I couldn't tell the difference between the 556 and 243, as far as how well they performed and how wide they opened or width of the petals. Both shots were taken broad side and high shoulder.

[@nam34mich18]

Shot placement. my grandma bagged a mule deer with 22lr lever action at 30yds. While she was cooking at camp.

[@ethankelso3084]

Here in AK all we use to hunt caribou is 5.56. My native friends use it extensively on seals too, even brown and polar bear. “Right behind the ear.”

[@rbagrizzly]

T/C Contender Super 14 .223 50 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip 80 yrds neck shot-------never took a step!

[@saltcreekammo]

Proper shot placement with *a good hunting bullet* kills game...

[@rocksandoil2241]

I had a relative (we all called him "Uncle Audie) who lived near Nathrop, CO. He shot a .25-20 and told me he killed 22 elk with 23 bullets. But he told me once, he had a large boulder on his farm he sat on right on the Arkansas River and shot them as they came to cross the river. He always shot them in the head, and said he never fired at one until within 50 to 75 feet... While I would never consider using such a cartridge personally, well, Audie was never known as a tale teller. His real nephew used to hunt there and used a 7mm Magnum...

[@MrLTW2009]

people act like a whitetail is a wooly mammoth

[@Nebula_Ultra]

Every deer I've ever killed with a rifle was with a 556. (6) Each with only 1 shot. 2 were between 5-10 yards others were between 100 and 120 yards.

[@bryanshull372]

Here in North Carolina it has been leagal to hunt deer with 22 long rifle for more than 5 years. Head shots under 50 yards and broad side shots under 100 yds with solid bullets is very effective. I've killed about a dozen with this with no losses. As with the .223/5.56 FMJs and all other spire point bullets, the solid 22lr bullet tumbles through the chest cavity leaving damage similar to hollow points. Because they retain most of their weight they usually give complete pass throughs as long as you don't hit major bone structures. The deer I have killed with broadside shots using 22lr and .223 FMJs seldom have gone more than 30 yards.

[@JRTRAPP1]

I agree that it is ethical as long as the hunter understands the limitations and the considerations that must be accounted for. 20 years ago I handloaded some .223 for the son of a good friend of mine. His son was quite young 5 or 6 but was a good shot with his .223 at 50 yards. Better than some men I see at the range. I think now you can buy ammo that is loaded with a bullet that is capable of ethically taking deer but back at the time there was really nothing out there readily available. I handloaded a 63 or 64gr power point and some X bullets for him to use. I loaded the power points down a little bit to keep the impact velocity at short ranges down a little. Both loads worked well for broadside shots at 20-70 yards. which were the only shots that he was allowed to take. The performance was not better or worse than any other cartridge under those conditions. Taking Texas heart shots or using a varmint or FMJ bullet and results would be different.

[@samueljohnson7649]

The whole point of the AR-15 platform, in its civilian use, before Military Trials, was to be a modern sporting rifle, chambered in .223, advertised for deer hunting. So, there is the whole origin of the cartridge and the weapon designed to fire it to consider. In general, a round that can take a deer can take a man.

[@tjr8063]

Dropped my first gorgeous doe with a 223 rem last year. Maybe 200+ yards out clean neck shot

[@BlueTJay]

I used a .222 with Nosler Partion 55 g for deer, goats and pigs. Shot placement and the right velocity/bullet type will create the necessary shock to put the animal down. I see too many large cal rifles using heavy bullets with no expansion and deer running for 100-200 yards. I now only use .270 with 130 gr Accubond, and 7 mm with 150 Accubond!

[@Northwoods208]

I've never had a deer that knew the difference between .223 and any other cartridge I've shot them with...shot placement is key. Too many guys think they need a magnum cannon that they can't shoot for shit. I'd rather put a small bullet where I need it to go, than put a big bullet several inches from where I need it to go. I use a .223 on deer, and a .243 on elk, I like to shoot for the neck bone, and they never take a single step

[@lylebonney3081]

The .223 rem is ethical with the correct bullet design