Snowden Was Justified

Has Edward Snowden done the U.S. a great service? There is no doubt that his release of highly classified stolen documents has sparked an important public debate, even forcing what could be a major presidential overhaul of the NSA's surveillance programs. But have his actions-which include the downloading of an estimated 1.7 million files-tipped off our enemies and endangered national security? Is Snowden a whistleblower, or is he a criminal?

[@alexanderwryn2112]

Complete bull, the idea that he could have gone up the chain to complain,.. it's so childish to believe that you could convince people who known and approved the program that it's wrong.

[@stolearovigor281]

8 years later the criminals still doing their bs

[@nash984954]

Drake and Binney are also heroes.

[@9753flyer]

Snowden is a true American Hero, standing up for the principles this country was founded on and for.

[@sukhvirnotra]

I agree with you but I would make a small change : Snowden is a true GLOBAL Hero I wish there were more people like him in governments of the world exposing corruption and lies

[@9753flyer]

sukhvir notra 100% agree!!

[@alexanderwryn2112]

Sorry, I can't go as far as hero on that subject.

[@wowomah6194]

What, like, putting American lives in danger by showing our enemies/ potential enemies our weak spots? Right. Brilliant idea.

[@sukhvirnotra]

zach snider no like showing the world that its getting harder to distinguish between NSA and the enemy

[@nageeb96]

Snowden is an American Hero. we thank him for the love of USA just like we all do no matter the Consequences .

[@tiffsaver]

Had there not been men like Daniel Ellsberg and Edward Snowden, we'd all still be speaking with an English accent.

[@philb5188]

Bollocks

[@jamilahrazzaq8780]

tiffsaver WRONG!

[@tiffsaver]

jamilah razzaq Soon, the NSA will be so far up your ass that you'll remember Snowden's warning... you're a fool.

[@jamilahrazzaq8780]

tiffsaver Wrong Again!

[@tiffsaver]

jamilah razzaq Is this "the best 2 out of 3" you simpering nitwit?? Go away.

[@citizenboobyboobs1480]

Did he say Henry Kisingher? The man who prolonged the war in Vietnam by 4 years, costing USA another 22000 lives? And he is still free, and not in jail?

[@YiannisPho]

I'm in full agreement with the audience's final decision on this motion, and very happy to see that the number of undecided went down from 42% before the debate down to just 11% afterward. I was particularly impressed with Daniel Elsberg's analysis and comments. He was a hero for me when he released the "Pentagon Papers" over 40 years ago, and he remains one to this day.

[@itsRAWRtime007]

spoiler alert haha

[@wotmot223]

I am laughing so hard at the idea that any member of congress would have given Snowden and appointment. More likely he would have called Snowden's boss. 90% of the people our elected representatives actually see are people who donated to them. What a joke.

[@alexanderwryn2112]

I agree strongly with you, and even if they had seen him,.. what then? He'd tell them everything that they already knew and then try to convince them that they were wrong? Good luck, not to mention that he'd have been black bagged so fast the congressman who ordered it wouldn't have had time to laugh first. In this kind of thing, you only get once chance to hold your proof... if you play your hand and play by the rules that NOBODY else is playing by, you lose. Don't forget that he could easily have found himself an "enemy of the state" and been held and tortured without representation or trial.. indefinitely.

[@antonvoltchok7794]

Lol yeah that senator argument is incredibly funny, yeah Snowden why didn't you report the NSA to the senators the NSA is spying on hahaha, even if there was a senator who would agree to a meeting, Snowden would disappear immediately after attempting to set that meeting up

[@ChiefClickClack2015]

Way to go Daniel Ellsberg!

[@trexx32]

CIA director great American lol that's an oxymoron. The amount of crimes and blood and drug dealing on his hands would make make Al Capone look like a joke

[@valkyriesardo278]

Are we safer? Yes. Freedom is never guaranteed. It requires vigiliance. Our constitutional freedom must be defended from the enemy and that includes the enemy within. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Those who give up freedom for a little bit of safety, deserve neither"

[@orumusvids8200]

+Valkyrie Sardo I agree with you. Plus the fact that the oath I took when I joined the military was the same Snowden took and it clearly states your obligation to defend the constitution from ALL enemies foreign AND domestic. There is a reason we don't swear loyalty to the government.

[@schaughtful]

Should one break the letter of the law, to save it's spirit?

[@danielclint1033]

Wolsey, this government can not seem to help the human trafficking victims in the US.

[@andrewfrolund9014]

Do as I say and not as I do seems to be recurring theme of the opposing side of the debate. Evidently Edward Snowden is the only person working in our current government who is obligated to honor his oaths and fulfill his obligations. I AM SO SICK OF THIS HYPOCRITICAL ARGUMENT! I feel like we are trying to rationalize with kindergartners.

[@danielclint1033]

The outcome should be 100% that Snowden was justified.

[@citizenboobyboobs1480]

The real owners of the country, need secrecy, hence, not letting people know what their government does in their name.

[@Micscience]

One of my favorite ISQ debates. I'm still waiting for the most important debate though which is 9/11 and what happened that day because all the debates that are going on today are built on a false premise which is 9/11.

[@wanderingwizard1361]

Incompetence is almost always a better explanation for anything than conspiracy. Insisting that 9/11 was other than what it appeared also entirely misses what should be the main point here. 9/11 gave the government license to launch wars and spying campaigns. Governments don't need to dabble in conspiracy or false flag operations. They can usually just use an actual crisis and achieve the same result.

[@DanielMazahreh]

@Wandering Wizard 100% correct!!! Excellent point! Stick to the war crimes the USA committed that used AND allowed 9/11 to happen.

[@beuyapode]

Snowden is indeed a hero, in that he held the constitution in higher regards than not only the nationalistic sense of being American, but also the capitalistic mindset of being selfish, which makes him more American and closer to the teachings of the Enlightenment fathers than merely being born on American soil would entail.

[@beuyapode]

And regarding national security, Americans should ask themselves one simple question, why does America have so many enemies, before they get distracted by fighting them off endlessly and futilely.

[@lharper]

Well said Sir! May God bless your wisdom & insight continually. I pray that Americans will once again cherish God's Word and our Constitution before both are completely taken away. We've allowed psychotic reprobates to call evil things good, and good things evil. There is no common sense, no foundation. Perhaps it's already too late... God help us!

[@funkkyzenzei]

Good topic. But I wish it was in 720p.

[@alexmilligan2655]

I have a real question. What would've happened to Snowden under the Bush/Cheney administration?

[@MopHeDD]

My first thought was civil war.

[@alfredtesch8640]

Alex Milligan The press would have praised him to the highest and made it about Chaney / Bush. Then we would have still had to run like hell.

[@DarylBuck]

Snowden DID NOT hurt America. He did kick the Bully in the NUTS, and RAN LIKE HELL. Will Smith had a sit com about it, except he ended up in Belle Aire. Save yourself if you can.

[@carlyletom301]

Enemy Of The State. Some still haven't seen that movie.

[@DarylBuck]

Carlyle Tom You can broadcast it EXCLUSIVELY on all Stations and some STILL won't get it.

[@DarylBuck]

Carlyle Tom And now the NSA has been empowered to actually build and continues to operate the same damned machine that was only "fantasy" then. Snowden's disclosure did NOTHING to halt the dark future it means to US ALL. Obama laid eyes on it and the Hooverish political blackmail potential of it turned him into the turncoat on the World HE became. Imagine WHAT some of the Elite OWNED politicians would end up doing with it to OPPRESS US ALL. The NAZI Gestapo would pale in comparison. Soon even resisting the inevitable misuse of that power will be called "Domestic Terrorism" and get you thrown into a "Work Camp" for life with no chance for even a fair hearing.

[@busolao4627]

Nicely done 'for' guys!

[@Perseus775]

you can't compare metadata with letter envelopes - first of all they also contain actual location data (not just a sender's address which isn't necessary nor needs it be correct) for every single data set, also the sheer amount of data collected allows other, more personal information to be reconstructed very easily - like who is in a relationship with whom, places of work and residence, interests and political views etc.

[@mikaelloeser9769]

That's very strange how American people love their constitution. In other countries we just know that our constitution is a boring piece of legal papers...

[@lmrproduction5387]

I hate debate that starts it's justifications through scare tactics

[@williambontrager]

I wish more people would watch this debate. I can honestly say it was humans exercising real emotions vs government robots. Just the half- hearted responses and dodging on the anti-Snowden side shows their attitude towards average Americans and their contempt for freedom of speech. Snowden was justified if he had to work in this corrupt system. I want to hear more about the content and not the meta-data.

[@TheDude1776]

Goota love how at 25:00 he was saying that if the U.S. was reading all of ISI's (Islamic State of Iraq) emails "prior" to 9/11 we could have avoided the attacks. Yet the alleged terrorists were almost all Saudis not Iraqi, and we said that it was Bin Ladin that planned it, not Saddom Housain!

[@crunch9876]

Ithink he said or meant al quada lol

[@TheDude1776]

crunch9876 They are all the same group. Just different names for different war spending.

[@crunch9876]

no some of the members have been in mutiple groups but there are fundamental differences in the ideology

[@Alkalite]

I have to say three of the four gentlemen in this debate presented fact and reason on an ascendant level.

[@deus_ex_machina_]

Curious to know who was the fourth? Did they present fact and reason on a human level or were you not pleased?

[@nonimefarya7477]

25:40 Transparent fearmongering at it's most explicit lol. This fuckin' guy

[@andrewfrolund9014]

I think we need to make a clear distinction between National Security "The Branch of Government" and our countries acualt state of security. That way when he says that edward snowden caused "A major setback in National Security," we understand that he speaking of the Agency!

[@alexanderwryn2112]

Lol, yes a few thousand people "overseeing" is really quite efficient.. its not true at all that adding a bunch of people to the same positions simply diminishes the responsibilities of the individual overseers.

[@chrisAclaes]

So was it *just* harmless metadata being collected or was it important data that was damaging to the United States? Opposition needs to make up their minds on that one.

[@deus_ex_machina_]

I believe their argument was that the NSA was only collecting metadata-however, the documents Snowden provided included methods, capabilities, and logs of them, along with other three-letter organization's doing what they do, and that this is what jeopardized their operations, personnel, and associates.

[@leadthumbs1]

He didn't achieve anything. What Snowden did was patriotic However they shut down that program renamed it and started it right back up. Probably in the same day. And they are still doing it today.

[@VanSisean]

At least many people in the contemporary era are a bit less (or even a lot less) naïve about mass surveillance in a way that they were not before, despite nearly a century of disclosures from the likes of Herbert O. Yardley, Perry Fellwock, Margaret Newsham, Mike Frost, Russ Tice, Thomas Drake, Mark Klein, Thomas Tamm, William Binney, J. Kirk Wiebe, Ed Loomis, and Diane Roark.

[@altafalinaushad6368]

Glen Greenwald is missing...???

[@jasonsacrifice1]

There is very little truth in this, with statements that are highly suspect. Should have used Douglas Murray.

[@nash984954]

Edward Snowden is was and always will bea hero, period, as is Julian Assange, although a world hero Assange is. Thanks to Assange, Snowden, Manning, Wiunner Kirakoia,and UK's Murray and yes even now Scott Ritter for resigning over Iraqi war.

[@User_32]

Snowden is a hero

[@augurcybernaut4785]

Perhaps the most influential underlying motive of Snowden was to gain notoriety with which he could then leverage into a long line of doe eyed sexual partners. A geek version of a rock-n-roll star whose reason for being in a band was not for the muse but rather for the sex, drugs and rock-n-roll of it all. This is clear in that he is currently sleeping quite comfortably in fine linen sheets courtesy of Vladimir Putin, fully able to sleep without his “driving” sense of liberty being trouble whatsoever. if Snowden were Thomas Paine he would have said “Give me liberty or give me panties”. These guys arguing that Snowden was right has simply said that the editors of the Guardian are better at protecting the public interest than the state….. on what basis I ask. The individual will have to rely on some insititution larger than their self….ALWAYS….media, state, church, markets, god or God. There are no other “sovereign” entities at play in this story. These pro-Snowden folk seek to move media into the “top spot” without acknowledging that just as the state is prone to manipulation the media maybe more so but without ever being forced to give account at the polls.

[@TheVcasf]

So all you need to do is vote against your views in the first round of voting and the for your views in the second round. this way you guarantee a wider gap thus giving your side better opportunity to win.

[@valkyriesardo278]

VcasF VcasF One can cheat at solitaire too, but at the end of any game you need to understand the value of what you've lost and what you've won.

[@BW022]

VcasF VcasF And you have a 0.1% change, provided your opponents do not play the same trick also. The reality is that most people who take the time to come out to obscure debates, wait hours, and listen to them... have no reason to lie or cheat about such minor things. There is little to be gained in "your side" winning a minor debate. People watching these debates online aren't swayed by the results of the audience polling... they are swayed by the arguments of the speakers -- or they aren't swayed and keep their initial opinions.

[@Alkalite]

Who does Daniel Ellsberg remind me of..that voice?

[@personalperspective]

1:02:10 That sounds so disingenuous. It sounds like with the meta data collected on a massive level, it would be child's play to figure out the name, address and specifics.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

If 4chan can find Shia Lebouf's flagpole with nothing but the paths of the planes flying overhead, the NSA can probably figure out who you are with your phone number.

[@EmberwildeProductions]

It's an obvious problem that these debates are determined by an audience in New York City, which is not representative of the entire US on many cultural, political, and economic issues. Regardless of the outcome of any debate, it bears keeping this in mind.

[@TheOnceAndFutureDoug]

Some of the debates, a number of them are not done in NYC. Though this one was. However, you should watch more of them. While the audience does lean left of center, it's certainly more center than people would expect. Either way, the moderator does his job flawlessly, I'm sure you can agree.

[@EmberwildeProductions]

I dig these debates, no doubt... I just have to remind myself that "real America" (according to Sarah Palin) is not represented here.

[@TheOnceAndFutureDoug]

Emberwilde Productions To some degree I think you're right, but I really do think you'd be a little surprised by just how represented a lot of those groups are. You also get people like myself who vote with whoever had the most persuasive argument.

[@wotmot223]

I am torn on this to be honest. I think Snowden took far more information than was needed to bring out the problems that needed addressed. I think Manning did the same thing. I think Snowden did more good than harm, but I think he did harm.

[@alexanderwryn2112]

Yeah, but how about you try sorting through the 1.2 million documents before taking them? He probably took whatever he could access and ran, sorting the documents out afterwords. There is no way he would have had time to know what was in each page beforehand. It's sloppy, but whistle blowers don't exactly have a luxury of time to understand all the material.

[@wotmot223]

I suppose he didn't have time to find everything he felt would be relevant. But 1.2 million documents?

[@alexanderwryn2112]

Richard Blackmore I agree that it's a lot, and it should be suspect that he took literally EVERYTHING he could find... but you really do have to wonder, if the NSA was keeping this a secret, what else are they doing?

[@adrianalexandrov7730]

he hasn't fled to Russia. That would be a dumb argument. He was locked in Russia by US revoking his passport.

[@artyomarty391]

1:09:20 lol is that the prankster andrew hales?

[@ChaChoRrom]

*FRONTLINE PBS May 13 & May 20, 2014 May change you mind or not*

[@gametheory1776]

Wow. Some people are simply impervious to logic. Seriously depressing. I wonder if we have all become so committed to our perceived "side" that conflicting information is simply ignored in favor of narrative consistency. Wait, of course you all have. Sad to see the New York pseudo-sophisticate scene has been so infiltrated. Otherwise it was a lop-sided debate in favor of the opposition. LOVE THE IDEA OF THIS THOUGH. I'll probably be donating.

[@Allsportstees]

1:25:06

[@SpeaksToDragons]

LOVEINT: On his first day of work, NSA employee spied on ex-girlfriend arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/loveint-on-his-first-day-of-work-nsa-employee-spied-on-ex-girlfriend/ NSA keep tabs on your ex-girlfriend.

[@lucretius8050]

I think at some point of the debate they all kind of accepted it was justified but rather if the means he used was correct.

[@JoebooSauce]

First FTW! LOL. Can't wait to watch this

[@ManikSethisuwan]

Bad debate question. Snowden was Justified, -- for what? for forcing a national debate = YES for the slightest chance the might have endangered American lives? = HELL NO The only consensus that is derived from this particular debate was that Snowden was justified for enforcing a national debate, that's all. Nothing else.

[@tamikajackson3419]

🐑Our Heavenly Father spoke of the lambs and i challenge the elite to move his Bible of Oath and see who got power.

[@iamalwaysserious]

48:23, is she sleeping? lol

[@ShahoftheShahs]

You lot need to come to Chicago more often.

[@Micscience]

One day this politically correct approach to a benevolent society will no longer exist. Like if a comment doesn't fit the margin of what is socially accepted it shall be deleted. And when that day comes I'll be there to tell you that I love you.

[@jlawrence6723]

woolsey's presentation is surprisingly lame. juvenile, even... perhaps he thinks/hopes american people are juvenile as well? lol

[@Fancymanofthedeep]

Snowden is evil. The points the former cia director made should have been enough.