Buying Solar Batteries - 2022 Home Battery Buyer's 101 Guide

[@mspalmboy]

We installed 6.6 kW of solar and a small 4.8 kWh battery over two years ago. After measuring our average 24 hour electricity use (7.5 kWh), I knew that the battery would almost always cover our night time energy use. Everything has worked very well and we rarely ever use any grid electricity. The battery cost $6,000, but thanks to a Qld govt's $3,000 battery subsidy at the time, the battery only cost us $3,000 - which was a good investment.

[@SolarQuotes]

That seems like a good use of the rebate. Nice one. You have very low overnight usage compared to the typical Australian home!

[@mspalmboy]

@@SolarQuotes yes, we have low energy usage thanks to being aware of how much energy we use, plus using all-LED lighting and replacing appliances with the most energy efficient models (including a 6-star energy rated fridge). Thanks to reading Finn's book, we could easily calculate our average day and night time energy usage, so we knew that our small solar battery would be adequate most nights (this won't be the case with battery degredation over coming years. Then a year ago we made the transition to an EV (which is bloody excellent). Today I topped up the car battery using the rooftop solar. YAY!

[@upnorthandpersonal]

I'm off grid - and the best way to get a battery in this case is to DIY one. LiFePO4 cells have gotten very cost effective. I'm doubling my existing 28kWh to 56kWh, and this costs me US$4000 in cells. Add a BMS and cabling, fusing, etc. and you're at US$4500 for a 28kWh pack. Best thing is: LiFePO4 doesn't experience thermal runaway and is much more forgiving, and can be charged to 100% without issues.

[@SolarQuotes]

LifePO4 are harder to get into thermal runaway than some other chemistries, but it can still happen. Please be careful!

[@upnorthandpersonal]

@@SolarQuotes I've yet to see any paper or demonstration of this where it is achieved without external heat source. The batteries will vent, but even the venting gasses don't spontaneously combust without external ignition source. Can you point me to a paper/research where thermal runaway in LiFePO4 cells results in catastrophic thermal runaway of a battery pack?

[@kimmer6]

Where in the world are you getting 28kwh in batteries for $4000? Used? Car battery packs? Chinese EVE 280's?

[@upnorthandpersonal]

@@kimmer6 EVE 280's yes, Docan and/or Luyuan.

[@yonceydelatorre3802]

Can you post a link to where you make your purchases… thx in advance!

[@chrisnewman7281]

I think that people should take a clear eyed approach to an investment how much solar batteries and work out why they’re actually wanting to buy one, is it to impress their neighbours or friends or is it to save money and make it work for them? If you’ve got any money to burn go ahead and buy one but you do need to make sure that you’re buying it for the right reasons

[@theairstig9164]

Punctuation? I mean, it’s a thing yeah?

[@chrisnewman7281]

@@theairstig9164 are you the grammar police?

[@darwinjina]

Totally agree. Considering that most batteries (I'm told) will last 10 years. But, most ROI on batteries are greater than 10yr.

[@suchdevelopments]

1. 250 prefabricated CLT & SIPform passive house certified homes. On the roofs of buildings, the Tractile 180m2, the excess electricity will be stored in the 28.8MW Tesla Batteries Farm. 2. The PV in total 934,370m2 - Tractile tiles 45,000m2 and ARCTECH SOLAR TRACKING PV 887,400m2 3. Bi-Charging of EV one per house and 12 Tesla charging stations in the shopping centre. 4. Micro-grid that connects to a community of 4800 residents. 6. We will be trailing the SoMax HTC process in 2024. That processes the sewage into sterilises aggregate for concrete so many products that would carbon released into the atmosphere when State Government and Council approved process. The Team that assembles onsite and ends in June 2023. COST OF MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADE - PV, BATTERIES, EV Charging Public/Bi-directional and SYSTEM $4,153,170 annually starting 2024. At the end of August 2022, they will be posted the video on KZbin. Sustainable-Urban-Community-Homes

[@DSC800]

At 3:40: "if your monthly bill is $200 ($2400) then it doesn't make sense to spend $12 grand to bring your bill to zero". If you are talking pre-tax credit then yes it does make sense. On this statement alone, net cost of $8500 to save $2400 a year is a less than 4 year payback. Even without the tax credit it is still just 5 years.

[@ericdutt3582]

Everything in life should be explained this clearly and concisely.

[@Channel-iu6de]

is there an advantage to installing a battery to begin with over installing one at a later date?

[@nealb8169]

Why are there only Li ion batteries on your list? Are flow batteries like the Redflow not as good?

[@SolarQuotes]

Redflow are good batteries for industrial applications IMHO, but not for residential. They are huge, fairly noisy and you really need two of them due to the maintenance cycling.

[@robertkat]

I pay $75.00 a month for hydro electric bill, no maintenance, no problems. Try and top that with solar energy and batteries.

[@lawrenceharris1819]

FWIW I have made enquiries, sequentially, from 3 different companies. Not one has responded. I presume that they are all frantically busy avoiding more customers. Bewildering experience. Not even a 'sorry we're too busy to respond.'

[@oldskoolhead0]

You spoke about battery fires etc like lifepo4 batteries don't exist, and are the only battery chemistry you should consider for home power, as 1, they don't set on fire 2) where the cycle life of an 18650 20/21700 is 250-500 cycles to 80% dod a lifepo4 is 2-3000 cycles while the cost per kwh is approx the same, the only benefit to li-ion 18650 etc is power density and weight which only matters in portable or small volume usage scenarios, since they are being installed in your home the fact they are a bit bigger and heavier is inconsequential, and the lower fire risk and up to 10x cycle life more than compensates for this, you are however free to buy what battery you like or what suits you, but unless I was getting eg cheap used 18650 cells and building diy packs for cheap then lifepo4 cells would be all I would consider for solar

[@SolarQuotes]

Absolutely LFP / LiFePo4 batteries are safer. But to claim they "they don't set on fire" is very dangerous talk. If they get too hot they will burn ferociously - although not as ferociously as NMC. A badly installed LFP battery is a fire hazard. Don't be complacent just because it's LFP.

[@deanervik]

No mention of Zenaji batteries in your preferred brand list. Australian made in the same way PowerPlus is. You neglected to mention that your estimated pricing does not include homes that are without grid access and fully off grid. Love your work and videos, keep up the good work.

[@johncarmen9963]

I’m interested if it would be possible to get a system on my garage to store enough energy to fully charge a Tesla, I imagine a system where the solar panels charge up a large battery in/on the garage and turn off when the battery is full, and then when the battery is full it has enough energy to fully charge the car. is this possible? If so how much would it cost roughly? How fast would the panels charge the battery/power bank, And how fast could it charge the car? The cars battery is 62 KWH

[@richardhenskens5482]

Good morning I hope you can help me I watch your show on KZbin and I bought LG panels according to you, they were the best at that stage now I am trying to add panels and everybody are ring in Melbourne and New South Wales. Do not want to help me. Can you help?

[@garyblake943]

Thanks for a great guide to solar and battery selection. I am in an off-grid situation and find your explanation the best so far. I will now look for overnight loading and battery capacity. cheers.

[@rich9903]

Hey Finn. I just signed up with one of your recommended solar system suppliers/installers for fitment of a 10.8 kW system on my property so very much looking forward to that. I’m keen to get your thoughts on the Bluetti systems as a pseudo-home battery storage system. The AC200 Max coupled with matching Bluetti portable solar panels, allows simultaneous charging/power usage when connected together. If no sun is available to charge up the battery, it can be charged by mains power during the off peak tariff timeframe then used the next day to simultaneously power (up to a point) household items such as the home fridge, kitchen appliances and even clothes dryer during peak tariff times. By looking after the battery (maintaining 25-75% SOC, avoiding rapid charge/discharge cycles & avoiding high temperature environments during use), Will Prowse (I’m sure you’ve heard of him) reckons they’d theoretically last the lifetime of the user if not longer. With everyday use and abuse (i.e. contrary to the above), they’re still meant to last at least 3.5K cycles. Granted it’s not the same as a dedicated battery system but the Bluetti also has the added benefit of being used for offgrid camping/touring. What’re your thoughts?

[@SolarQuotes]

Honestly. It's your home - I'd invest in a hardwired battery if you want a battery. A Bluetti is a great portable battery, but cannot be connected to the grid. SO you have no opportunity for self consumption or VPP participation etc - which is where the payback is. Plugging multiple appliances into the Bluetti if there's an outage will be a spaghetti nightmare.

[@HMASJervisBay]

$8000 and $15,000 battery outlay cost makes it unattractive at present. Tesla Powerwall is around $18,000 fully installed. Can you do it better for that avg earner? That is from Choice. Pushing batteries is probably ten years too early for most. Like EV cars, batteries end them as there is no 2nd hand market for them when battery replacement cost is factored in.

[@lindacgrace2973]

*LOL* 😂I'm an American, you left out the primary, #1 reason Americans go "off grid". Out in the rural areas of our country, a reliable grid is simply not available. Yeah, I know, you can pay to electrify any chunk of land anywhere in the country. In my case, my idyllic high mountain meadow would cost over $150,000 USD to run a line from the power company.A line that is guaranteed to give me brown-outs during times of high usage and complete blackouts (a dozen per year) also when it is least convenient. Uh, that's double my budget for building a home for crappy unstable service! Solar is frequently the only practical alternative to a grid-tied system or one operating entirely off of a propane or diesel generator.

[@ryodo1989]

Hiya! What are your thoughts on Fox Ess hv2600 batteries???

[@HarmLessSolutionsNZ]

Thanks for a well explained presentation on battery storage. My question though is how does battery storage stack up against V2H where the EV battery is much larger than a comparably priced battery stack and serves the same purpose? Assuming one has a bi-di compatible EV doesn't the extra investment of a bi-di charger make better economic sense than buying a battery stack? I am assuming the V2G/V2H system is islanded as per any back-up power supply must be. A little ahead of the game for now I know but worth considering when designing a backup home system in terms of potential future redundancy.

[@SolarQuotes]

V2G / V2H is in its very early days. The bi-directional chargers cost over $10,000, they can't backup your home without the grid yet, and I suspect many people are underestimating what a pain it will be to organise your car being at home when you need it and ensuring you have enough charge in the morning to get where you need to go. My advice is - to invest in your home - get a proper battery system installed that you can set and forget.

[@k1ng401]

How much extra does it generally cost to add battery backup of a few lighting and power circuits like you did? I believe you need an extra switchboard installed? So they use the same wiring that’s already there?

[@Knobend420]

Mate, this video is tops! Appreciate the tips provided.

[@mr.grotto]

Anyone ever hear of Kokam? I'm looking at buying a commercial building battery backup. I can get a 50kwh for around 5k.

[@ZisWile]

I have been researching solar for 7 months, even got quotes from 2 recommended by you they were a/ shonky , and B/ way overpriced for inferior product. The fact is you have missed Batteries that offer significant upgrade on "Tesla product" that guarantee superior lifetime and also lower degradation rates than many of the batteries you champion. Secondly you never point out that a battery that drops to 70% at 10 years best case will no longer meet the needs of an average Aussie House let alone a battery at 60%. Finally the best Solar panels now offers 40 year warranty at 88% of new efficiency and parts and labour.

[@leigh71able]

Hi Craig. I was wondering about this, are Finn’s recommended installation companies only the ones that agree to give him a kickback. That shouldn’t rule out other long term solar installation companies who do good work. Which solar panels have a 40 year warranty.

[@everythingtechnew7400]

I’ve just been quoted £10,000 or $17,000 Australian for a 4 kWh solar system & 4.8 kWh battery only knows which brand as they didn’t say. I’ll not be using them for sure.

[@alistairsavoury1074]

Surprised you didn't highlight anything regards LFP batteries....increasingly affordable, safer and while less energy dense offer 10 yr warranties, before degradation. I have a small hybrid inverter and a few panels, and will be adding more LFP battery storage, to improve outage cover. with a little management I've lower bills, and the package should pay for itself in 3-5yrs....maybe sooner if the energy profiteering continues. Happy days.

[@iand3344]

Thanks for the great video, very comprehensive and as always, well explained. Do you have a view on the merits of using a smaller battery plus a hot water diverter instead of a bigger battery? This should minimise carbon footprint at a lower cost than using a big battery.

[@SolarQuotes]

Hot water should always be used as a battery. You should heat your water during the day and store the heat. As solar systems get bigger and daytime 'solar sponge' tariffs get cheaper, simple timers start to make more and more sense over a relatively expensive hot water diverter.

[@DragonsOfAra]

Lots of good info and advice here. Thank you.

[@singlendhot8628]

It's shocking that installers recommend Chinese owned brands (Huawei, BYD, Growatt, Pylontech etc.) despite the non-existent aftersales support, poor quality and ethical ramifications! Thanks for sharing the facts about the return on investment.

[@esaw7067]

Chinese big name brands have the highest battery quality in the world actually and BYD and Huawei are massive megacorps so most people are assured they will be in the market at least for the duration of the battery warranty.

[@freidrichnietzsche6643]

Does this apply to the USA? Are these companies available in the US? Cheers to a great video! Sub’d!

[@shankabriawan5308]

Thoughts on freedom won batteries?

[@fishingphill]

The Redback system didn't make your list that you would install on your house. Is there a reason why?

[@SolarQuotes]

Hi fishingphill - not sure what you mean? At 6:12 Redback is on there, between Pylontech and Tesla :)

[@Blogtog101]

What are your thoughts towards Growatt systems? More specifically their home batteries Growatt GBLI6532?. Cheers.

[@SolarQuotes]

Not a brand I'd recommend to a friend :)

[@dingbatt]

The BYD “Battery Box” system seems to have stackable modules. Is it possible to add modules at a later date as finances allow?

[@SolarQuotes]

Yes, the system design is modular.

[@jimmyfithriansyah6665]

Informational Video.. I like it!

[@andywml]

Great info!

[@user-dr2pg8fk2i]

Too bad the RESUs are wicked glitchy.

[@wtpwtp]

Awesome video!

[@HamidSadeghi.]

what about lavo ( hydrogen battery company ) is that make sense to buy hydrogen battery?

[@theairstig9164]

You like having hydrogen tanks strapped to your house?

[@fishingphill]

Cost, I love the idea but it's very expensive. If it was even 50% dearer I would seriously consider it but it's more than double when I checked. Maybe it will come down.

[@HamidSadeghi.]

@@theairstig9164 what is the difference efficiency between lithium battery and hydrogen battery after 10 years?

[@SolarQuotes]

@@HamidSadeghi. The Lavo is *very* expensive. We wrote about it here: www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/lavo-hydrogen-battery-review/

[@theairstig9164]

@@HamidSadeghi. there is no way known a H gas storage system will pass a safety test after ten years. The whole lot will get thrown out. Ask an industrial plumber. Efficiency isn’t even a consideration. You use hydrogen when there is NO alternative

[@doccortex1203]

Thankyou for this, I agree'd to a contact with a battery supplier a few days ago, and many of what you have descibed, happened to me. I did further research, and $8000 for a 5Kw system, just didn't cut the mustard, to go with my existing 5.5Kw of panels. Fortunately, I was within the "backout" period as legislated, and emailed them that I do not wish to proceed, and refund my deposit. Surprise, surprise, no word from them.

[@rogerpearson9081]

Another demystifying video on the swirling mists of obfuscation that the schonks thrive in. Batteries are a nice idea but too expensive.

[@theairstig9164]

As a schonk I resemble that comment

[@chefgav1]

Depends where you live in Australia. Cheap here in ACT

[@songforguy1]

Apparently the byd LFP battery degrades far less.

[@esaw7067]

LFP batteries have the safest chemistry but they tend to store less power than other battery types.

[@workaholic5318]

Environment? The disposal of LiPO4Fe batteries are a huge toxic environmental hazard, the same with solar panels. The best alternative to all this is hydroelectric power if available.

[@chrisandshazza01]

Forget electricity companies - spite will see everyone buying electric vehicles if the price of fuel doesn’t come down. IQ8’s for me - been waiting since 2020!!!!!!!!!!!😩

[@toby9999]

I'm waiting for an affordable EV. I won't be holding my breath.

[@theairstig9164]

@@toby9999 it will be a well second hand one. Better learn how to fix it yourself too

[@michaelmclean3492]

Thanks!

[@erwinaui2534]

Thanks

[@lhffan]

14kwh battery for less then 3k usd. If you build it yourself.

[@SolarQuotes]

boom!

[@kimmer6]

How? Raw EVE cells? How do you get grade A cells that are already in the USA and not on an anchored boat from China?

[@theairstig9164]

@@SolarQuotes yeah literally. Step one get an electrical engineering degree. Step two do ten years in reliability engineering as a paid job. Step three realise it’s hard to integrate a safe reliable storage battery system from used parts especially when they were never originally designed to work that way. You become the test engineer too!

[@acefire4050]

So how is my 40-year-old that has a battery degrading since it's still perfectly as good as can be still working like it's never been a day old still gets full charge still gives me all the power I need of course it's not doing better I got I got 35 year old batteries I got 10 year old batteries I get 15-year-old batteries oh and I have a 60 year old better too oops and it's still a good battery so I also got 5 year old batteries and get 2-year-old batteries I got several months old batteries and I'm going to be buying more batteries and I don't replace my batteries if they're good as long as they're at least a thousand amp hours or higher cuz I like that 135 amp hour batteries I never had a blackout since I own my house I mean all my neighbors might have lost power because of tomorrow's done road there's a problem over its lake they all had power though don't know why I had power oh yeah that's right I have solar panels I have batteries yeah so I do just fine but I never have enough solar panels don't really have enough solar panels right now anyways but I did order some I don't know if they're going to come most things that order doesn't really come but since this is from the app store and Google and paypals had to make sure to pay went through or should I had to go through PayPal order it maybe this time I get some backing on it make sure I get it but this time is to come in with some acid batteries no it's coming with AGM batteries 200 kw hours batteries I guess that means the 2000 amp batteries but the end of 2000 amps like maybe 1,900 amps since a 1,000 amp battery is 135 amp hours a 100 kw your battery is actually 900 amp battery so 200 kw hour battery is an 1800 amp battery but AGM batteries are more made for solar panels understand. But I guess I really find out eventually if the orders ever come in.

[@eamon6713]

Punctuation matters my friend. I imagine there is valuable insight in there somewhere but I couldn't read it.

[@acefire4050]

@@eamon6713 well since I speak all this and not write it KZbin doesn't always put down what I say and add things to it that is not good but my 40-year-old batteries are still good further not my batteries that are older than 40 years old they are still good the only problem is I got to get more batteries and they are let us batteries 1,000 amps of course my older batteries are 1,250 amps and 1350 amps those are the batteries my father gave me many years back those were my second batteries I got which were older than the first batteries they got there that has a batteries of course my father gave me two marine batteries and I just had two regular car batteries now I'm getting ever start batteries that are a thousand amps and that are 135 amp hours each. Furthermore I make orders on the app store and Google and sometimes the orders take forever to get to my house like at like 6 months to year and a half to two and a half years like I made an order two and a half years ago for when I got one order back in December 16th of 2021 I ordered those March 2nd of 2020 and I did not get all my orders at that ordered in March 2nd of 2020 and this is already July or should I say June 4 days shy of July of 2022. What more would you like to know my friend. And yes I ordered some AGM batteries with some solar panel set which comes with a 6000 watt converter actually I ordered two of them from two different companies what you give me 12 200 amp hour AGM batteries because each of those AGM batteries are 2000 amps.

[@cameronsharp3349]

Sorry dude. I’m with Eamon. There is clearly an intelligent thought in there somewhere, but I m fucked if I can understand what is essentially a ranting rave with no respect for the rules and laws of basic English..I recommend doing an English Expression course at TAFE..You either didn’t listen to your teachers or you left school to early.. There is a reason schooling is compulsory and you would appear to be the living epitome of why.

[@investingthelike111]

have you ever tested cheap batteries from china? if not how would you know

[@homeESSconsultant]

👍

[@stevee8698]

It's not a "ba-tree". It's a ba-tter-Y"

[@chefgav1]

You recommend LG batteries? Are you daft

[@SolarQuotes]

We took them off our recommended chart last month :)

[@Nobody_Famous]

@@SolarQuotes perhaps once they transition to LiFePO4 chemistry that opinion will change.

[@darwinjina]

why?

[@chefgav1]

@@darwinjina because of the huge recalls. And from my understanding there are still lots of customers out there with bloated shaged batteries

[@darwinjina]

@@chefgav1 thanks

[@reyruiz7763]

Just the battery up to 20,000.... what a joke... and you cant even say that you will be alive 1 year after🤣... lije i said... just the battery. Like any other machine it will gives you headaches times and will see your self with no light and going crazy

[@SolarQuotes]

🤣🤣🤣

[@Backseatobserver0075]

You forgot to mention the growing demand of electric vehicles that will be charging from home , repayment will be cut in half or even more pending how many vehicles per house hold. Number 1 Environment Number 2 charging your car Number 3 saving thousand per year Your way behind in technology just like our previous leader.

[@theairstig9164]

Let’s say you have a 10Kw nameplate capacity solar system and a 10Kwh battery. The battery goes from empty to full during the day every day. The car comes home at night and discharges the battery, delivering about 70kms of range. The retail cost of the electricity is $3.40 give or take. Let’s do that 365 days a year. That is $1241/year not spent on electricity for the car. The solar and batteries is something like $20K installed plus the dedicated wall charger. Assuming the house pays ZERO for electricity and we assume that is worth $700/qtr you might break even after five years. How much was the electric car again? What OTHER lifestyle choices did you have to make to not pay for electricity? Turn all the lights off at night, sit in the dark? Not travel more than 70kms in one trip? Always charge your car from home? Cold showers? No kids or pets? The difference between theory and reality is bigger in reality than it is in theory