Sondheim was NOT a genius. Here's why.

I still love him, but more research changed my idea of his work - and also, what goes it to making a great work of art! JOIN THE GUMPTION CLUB: / thegumptionclub
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LINKS
GET GEEKY ABOUT SONDHEIM
If you’re curious, start with this doco!
Six by Sondheim (2013) • Video
Putting It Together with Kyle Marshall
Landing page: puttingittoget...
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
His two books, Look, I Made a Hat: www.waterstone... and Finishing the Hat: www.waterstone...
How Sondheim Writes A Musical: • How Sondheim Writes A ...
Glynis Johns Send in the Clowns: • Glynis Johns Send in t...
Sondheim’s appearances on Desert Island Discs:
open.spotify.c...
open.spotify.c...
OTHER THINGS I MENTION
A history of magic from the British Library! It’s a book but also here’s some free info: www.bl.uk/a-hi...
Your elusive creative genius | Elizabeth Gilbert: • Your elusive creative ...
Create Dangerously: A Lecture by Albert Camus: static1.square...
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[@DavidRigano]

Sondheim himself was always very vocal about his collaborators and big on giving credit where it was due. He would say that he felt he wasn't so much a writer as an actor. He took the characters and situations his collaborators created and put himself in there to tell those parts of the story through song. But I think those of us who consider him a genius feel so because of what his contributions were, not because of an assumption that he somehow created masterpieces in a void. His problem solving and puzzle making within his scores took a special kind of mind. The way he distilled information from various sources and collaborators into the songs we love, how he chose to reference familiar tropes or pieces of music to get a specific effect (Assassins is full of musical homages), all of that had to be filtered through his particular sieve and would have come out differently had a different writer been working on those projects. I think rather than looking at how much of the whole he didn't do, we can look at what his contributions were and that's where we find his genius.

[@vallentinac9513]

Definitely agree with this take.

[@zbotello1439]

Amén 🙏🏻

[@adiosepic1829]

I feel like this is exactly what the video talks about, but in an explorative way.

[@arlinbantam7101]

Much more inclined to agree with this reading. Kinda embarrassed by how seething this video left me. :'D

[@jayc9345]

Leena: "Maybe we don't need to look for blank pieces of paper, maybe we need to look at previous narratives that need fixing-" My nerdy self who's been endlessly ridiculed by "real writers" for writing fanfiction: "Y'don't say?"

[@erisedstraeh1]

I'm a musician, and a music teacher, and as I was watching this video, basically every point that you used to illustrate how Sondheim was "not a genius" I'm sitting here going "Um... that's literally how music WORKS". Referencing the Dies Irae, collaborating with other people, even just HAPPENING to be in the right place at the right time, this is how careers are made, I mean, just about every opera ever written had a librettist (what we would call a lyricist in musical theatre) and we rarely even know their NAMES unless we deliberately seek out that knowledge, that does not mean the composers were not geniuses!

[@craigmmcgill]

I agree. I’m 7 minutes in and waiting for this click baity title to make its damn point. This is such a silly video.

[@brynnhambley7964]

I went to a performing arts high school, and one of my teachers was known for telling his students time and time again, "Good artists steal." I didn't really learn what that meant until I became a playwright in grad school, but it's totally true-- originality isn't really a thing anymore and that's okay! Everything comes from something and that's beautiful. Nothing is created in a vacuum and very few things are created completely independently. Even as a playwright, I have dramaturgs and producers and actors who all influence me and my work constantly. Art is an amazing collaborative effort and that's what I love about it

[@gracereasoner542]

i’m also a playwright in college and we were taught the same thing! they tell us stop worrying about being original and Just Write.

[@emilyschettlers]

I feel this as a writer in general! Also, whenever I see those videos about musicians that are like "OMG IT SOUNDS LIKE THIS SONG" Like yeah, maybe its because they were inspired that song and then made it their own?

[@annafre1789]

My teacher in Primary school made us little "Magpie books" to write down ideas we saw and wanted to use in creative writing! I guess the idea was that magpies like to steal shiny silver things.

[@moylanhome]

It’s a paraphrase of Stravinsky.

[@kslaney4161]

You mentioning how editors are often left out of the praise of novels made me think about how often we put film directors on a pedestal when in reality they are part of a MASSIVE team of creative experts. With out the lighting specialists, film editors, sound design, continuity/script supervisors the list goes on and on, films we love would not be nearly as enthralling or immersive.

[@caitlinquinn79]

And lots of people not knowing that the director of photography is often the one deciding the shots, the stunt coordinator will be choreographing stunts to the narrative then showing them to the director, sometimes the first time a director sees the stunts is when they start shooting, and the DP will have set up the shots, possibly with the CGI department!

[@jack.e_bee]

It's so dumb for people to believe creativity can exist in a vacuum - as people, we are made up of all the things we've experienced through our entire lives. There's no way to separate who we "are" at heart, from all the things and people that have influenced us.

[@orlasmyth3409]

On West Side Story: The score is just incredible Bernstein's melodies, character's leitmotifs and arrangements of the orchestral parts and just stunning. There is just so much that is amazing about the music and she didn't give any evidence to support her rash claim

[@MonaGamie]

I like how you broke your points down without demolishing Sondheim. And it also makes me wonder how many people never got to shine or experience an opportunity to be really creative, because they did not get piano lessons, they did not get to live next to someone they admired and were not encouraged to do something with their talent.

[@leenanorms]

YUP. I think a lot about that too X

[@FelKud]

I loved this video! I, however, still think Sondheim is a genius. I don't think circumstance, the fact that collaboration played a big part in his work or the fact that he had imperfect productions takes away from that. Maybe my own definition of genius is too generous, but I think his lyricism alone is worthy of the term. I've also heard stories of how he supported other writers and frequently responded to letters. (see Tick Tick Boom) His generosity of spirit and enthusiasm for storytelling and language forever changed the musical industry! Ok. I'll stop gushing. I'm off to listen to more Sondheim.

[@oldvlognewtricks]

Agreed. By the same logic Shakespeare wasn’t a genius because he recycled earlier plays and stories and collaborated with his actors to generate the texts.

[@viola3347]

Having ADHD I very rarely *just* watch a video, it's usually accompanied by me doing chores or doing something else, but by the end of this video i found myself just intently listening and watching Olé!

[@gamewrit0058]

ADHD ftw! I got distracted by the Angela Lansbury clip 5 minutes in and paused to go look up her filmography and message a bunch of people about how she was in a stage production of Sweeny Todd 42 years ago. 😂👍

[@booksarebrainfood1708]

Has me thinking about how Sondheim was inspirational to Jonathan Larson who also took inspiration also from La Vie Boheme to make Rent that’s success lead to Tick Tick Boom being adapted … everything has so many layers

[@AtlanticGiantPumpkin]

And then seeing Tick Tick Boom is what motivated Lin Manuel Miranda to pursue musical theatre composition, thus creating In the Heights and Hamilton, Moana and Encanto, etc.

[@oliviapeters7783]

Makes me think of Lin Manuel Miranda. He undeniably has gifts, maybe he is a genius? But part of his success has just been writing about what he knows, what interests him, remixing things, taking from other artists he admires, etc. I feel like a key to his success is that he's not afraid to use what he likes, he doesn't seem to be pressuring himself to think of some whole new thing. Almost like his works are beautiful collages of all the bits of things he's found beautiful and compelling in the world.

[@snobook]

May i recommend channel Sideways for more indepth look in Sweeny Todd and musicals in general?

[@lgm14]

Leonard Bernstein wrote WSS and was one of the most significant musicians of the 20th century!! I recommend the West Side Story Symphonic Dances to be able to hear the music itself, which is stunning and invigorating and innovative - Cool Fugue is regularly used as a professional orchestral auditioning excerpt. (I also recommend seeing Gustavo Dudamel conduct Mambo with the Simon Bolivar Symphony Orchestra in 2012.)

[@lgm14]

* the score of WSS (obvs)

[@orlasmyth3409]

Simon Bolivar orchestra!

[@lgm14]

@@orlasmyth3409 i knowww it’s such a joy to play :’))

[@salomewalker9363]

Its AAAAALLLLLL about COLLABORATION! Everything ever created has come from humans collaborating. Sharing ideas, learning from each other, seeing problems to solve, getting inspired - I work in theatre and film and nothing I do I credit as "me" - its chance, its graft, its random beautiful meetings and conversations - it always develops in collaboration and even in my own private poetry writing, shown to no one, I can always see traces of the world around me play on the paper infront of me ! Great video and a clear way to entangle this idea of how creativity and art actually works!

[@maike__-]

What I love about your videos, Leena, is that even if I have no idea about the thing you're making a video about, I never feel left out of the conversation and I always learn something, and you often convince me to look into the thing you feel passionate about and I discover new and old favourites that way. Thank you!

[@lxsford14]

I feel the same way! 💛

[@peteb1206]

You'd learn far more actual facts about Sondheim by looking literally anywhere else on the internet. This video is devoid of anything other than one person's ignorant opinion.

[@nadiaabdulla3548]

Would love to see a video of your review of Tick,Tick…Boom! It’s Sondheims last appearance in a film and talks about life of Johnathan Larson who was a the writer of Rent and died the day of the opening night. It is SO interesting and talks about failure and finding you passion and this idea keeping trying at a craft despite set backs. It also has some great songs. It also features loads of Easter eggs for musical theatre lovers.

[@caroline9660]

I loved this! I think it’s good to be reminded that EVERYONE is only human. Individuals not having all of their shit together in all aspects of life just as you and me. People can do good things, people can be good at their job (which is often the case with “geniuses” it’s simply someone with luck and being fairly good at their job and with a title giving them credit for the whole teams effort), they can be passionate etc. BUT(!) they are also flawed, unknowing of things known by others, just wing some stuff etc. There seem to be an illusion that “geniuses” are some all knowing, goal minded, clear pathed people and NONE IS LIKE THAT 😆

[@peteb1206]

Sondheim NEVER took credit for other people's work. Without his direct admissions about this Leena would not even know about it for this absurd video.

[@anjalibhat14]

Love love love this video. I always try to read the entirety of theatre programs or the acknowledgment sections in books. I also like to wait until the veryyyyy end of movie credits 😂 I know just reading people’s names doesn’t do much for THEM and that it’s really for me, but it continually shows me that it took dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people to make the art I appreciate. The way we stream music now (a whole other conversation lol) doesn’t really allow me to appreciate a record’s collaborators in the same way, but I need to remind myself that it really was a group effort, and indeed that art almost always is. Even your videos are enhanced by the books you read and the support from The Gumption Club (and you always mention this) ♥️♥️♥️

[@zoeamz]

Currently reading "Everything Was Possible" by Ted Chapin which is about the creation of "Follies" and you might like it (talks about the creative and collaborative process of creating a musical)!

[@angelal8829]

I absolutely adore Elizabeth Gilbert's discussion of creativity. It's definitely a particular vibe and not for everyone, but her book Big Magic is hands down my favorite book about writing and creative work generally

[@sianmorris5624]

As someone who had never really heard of sondheim, I found this video really insightful and interesting- thank you so much xx

[@annnaaabel]

Loved this; my thoughts are sufficiently provoked. Reminded me a lot of Liz Gilbert’s booked, Big Magic - what she said about Olé that you mention, but also that creativity is about endeavouring to just MAKE, no matter how good/bad, and that the more you make, the more statistically likely it is to make something “good” (but then again, what even is “good”/“genius”, it’s so subjective… also as you mention, becoming successful in the mainstream definitely depends a lot on circumstances and positionality!)

[@BrookeInProgress]

Awwww your two favorite Sondheim shows are also my two favorites! I just saw the Company revival in NYC, and although that show is made up of these universal ideas about/thoughts on marriage that have been out there for much longer than the show itself, the way he assembles his music & lyrics to encapsulate them is just *chef's kiss* One of the things I really adore about him is his (relative) lack of hubris & the way he supported and encouraged other creators. Heck, he sent an opening night letter to my high school production of Into the Woods. (My boyfriend's favorite thing about him is that he loved the South Park musical)

[@charlottevickers4191]

I was avoiding watching this one because the title wound me up too much! But I think it's really interesting, particularly as someone who works in theatre (lol) where I've had a lot of conversations with different creatives about how new plays/musicals happen, and who gets the credit for what ends up happening. Also reminded me of the group biography of the later romantic poets, "Young Romantics" by Daisy Hay, which really challenges the idea of the Romantic lone genius

[@leenanorms]

Ooo sounds interesting, I'll look it up

[@gamewrit0058]

Yes! Problem solving is a huge part of writing, be it music or a story, especially if you're working with a pre-existing story or universe like Sweeny Todd, Beauty and the Beast, or writing fan fiction.

[@Ltfh543]

This is exactly what all of us should know that all the successes in science and technology not only in trivia are not the works of one genius but they are accumulation of the efforts of many people known and unknown. Thank you leena.

[@kimberlysidor9427]

Love it. Would love to see more like this, maybe about famous books. 🥰

[@davidbrienlantry8760]

I love what you have achieved with this video. You summed up Sondheim's career and pulled back the curtain to reveal the truth behind what too many people have lauded as Sondheim's 'genius'- with what less than two months research? People have been singing, literally singing his praises for over 50 years and you showed him for what he truly was a talented, creative, successful lyricist who had a couple of really great breaks, opportunities and connections. Still love his work and appreciate what you discovered. Good work!

[@moretyquira]

Oooooh that is a dangerous title 😂😂😂

[@jaelikesjackalopes]

Had a moment recently where I realized maybe Harry styles isn’t so stylish he just wears Gucci.

[@danecobain]

I'm a year or two older than you and I remember vividly when Frank Sinatra died, but then I was a big Frank Sinatra fan (I was a weird kid) and also I was in Benidorm at the time. I remember that we went to the one shop that sold English language newspapers and it was on all of the front pages :[

[@CJCregg884]

So I knew about sondheims colabs and inspirations and it all seemed so obvious to me until you pointed out how much editors influence the work of authors and that BLEW MY TINY MIND. So you're totally right, as soon as I'm not familiar with the inside baseball it's so easy to assume it's a one person project created by a genius (Also one of my fav singers gave us this way to remember how to pronounce bernstein (rhymes with DIVINE, DARLING))

[@BeccaAl]

Thank you Leena, You reminded me of a Sondheim enthusiast I lived with 20 years back. I saw a production or two over the years too, though not much recently. RIP Steven Sondheim. I really like Westside story too, Assassins was a personal fave, Unworthy of your love! I was a sad little sap obviously 🥲

[@seopark7467]

I always said that originality lies in limitation, originality in synthesis. What I mean is we utilize creativity in order to bypass some sort of limitation, either placed by ourselves or externally, and originality only exists when different ideas, motifs, cultures, concepts, and stories that already exist are synthesized into something new.

[@markjones7138]

I am nervous for your comments section

[@heathermayredetzke4245]

Whoa. West Side Story "isn't the best musically" is a HOT HOT take.

[@leenanorms]

I know, I should probably wear some protective goggles for when the West Side stans come after me.

[@orlasmyth3409]

@@leenanorms the score and orchestral parts are just incredible. amazing motifs and arrangements. its just incredible musically. BernSTEIN is omds amazing

[@ChloeHenderson9]

I really love Amanda Palmer - and she is pretty open about the various inspirations she has had for her music (and that of The Dresden Dolls), but it's interesting when you delve into any of the things/people/art that you love and you can see droplets of other people's work. We are all just a ocean of influences and are shaped by the different cultures we consume as people and as artists.

[@mydoggotshavedtoday]

Regina Spektor - ‘Bon Idée’ & ‘Us’. This comment makes me look like a crazy fan , even thought I don’t listen to her much these days. I remember these songs I’m particular made me start thinking about this subject

[@SimplyARobin]

Love your lipstick! What color/brand is it?

[@TheGirlInGeekGlasses]

This video highlights one of the reasons why I don’t like the deification of Lin-Manuel Miranda. Hamilton is a cultural phenomenon, but it was based on one historian’s book (aka one historian’s perspective on history and also someone else’s work), the musical is full of references to other musicals, he borrows ideas and themes from other pieces of media, and it samples loads of pre-existing R&B/rap music. He’s been very transparent about this and has obviously given credit where it’s due, but people do treat him like a genius when actually it’s just a process of recycling stuff!

[@simbahunter8894]

And it only took him seven years to do it! One could argue that proof of Lin-Manuel Miranda's genius is that he even had the idea to write a MUSICAL about the first US Secretary of the Treasury in the first place. Hamilton's life story has been out there a long time - he died more than two hundred years ago. Chernow wrote a biography of hundreds of pages, not the book of a musical. LMM did that. Yeah, anyone could have written a three hour hip hop musical about a financial genius and made it a huge Broadway hit. And yet, only one person did.

[@throughcolouredglasses9300]

You did it again Leena, you took a topic I didn't care about and made me cry halfway through because you turned it so profoundly touching. I love the concept that true creativity, creation, genius even cannot stand by itself and is only made possible by all the cultural and social context, inspirations, people that came before that made a similar thing, and people that exist together at the same time and /make/ each other work. Be it through collaboration, bouncing off ideas and inspiring each other, wanting to make a friend or colleague smile, or plain trying to solve a problem you are getting paid to solve. Few things are as inspiring to me as all these stories of "geniuses" who actually didn't do it all by themselves in a vacuum up in their ivory tower. There is something so humanising and incredible about being part of a community of creatives that collectively come up with concepts, ideas, works - and learning the people that came before me, that I admire or am inspired by, were just like that as well.

[@alexaamarok2680]

I love how you stitch together thoughts and concepts. Thank you for all your hard work and wonderful antics and shenanigans!

[@Miss_Lexisaurus]

True story; I watched Die Hard with my BFF over xmas and learned that Alan Rickman had died. I'm that person when it comes to celeb deaths - I don't know they've died til years later! My BFF now shouts "dead" when dead actors are in the thing we're watching!

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

I may start doing this because I am exactly the same. Especially with actors.

[@hel59]

This video was so reassuring, specifically your point about not having to focus solely on your own experience to create art. I’ve heard a lot of advice from artists or critics who say ‘paint what you know’ which is definitely valid, but often it’s topics that I don’t know that spark my interest

[@theclairemalkie6496]

This video was super thought provoking! I think this idea of “reusing” ideas is quite common in modern musical theatre. Although Wicked is one of the most popular musicals in modern history, the characters and world were already there for Schwartz to dig into. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this notion (in fact I love spin off stories) but it does demonstrate how influence exists in creativity.

[@Chichubby3rd]

Was going ballistic when I started your video, but you are incredible and thanks for all the insight and thought provoking points.

[@ginah8995]

Talking of cool things hidden in music: Peter Maxwell Davies' 'Eight Songs for a Mad King' expresses George III's descent into 'madness'. And the score for one of the movements is shaped like a birdcage, with the vocal parts running down and the flute part running across. Also, my music teacher at school told me that in Handel's Messiah, there is a song called 'Behold the lamb of God', and that Handel made the initial musical line mimic when you sign the cross (whether Handel actually intended that, I don't know but it does look like that).

[@mackenziemot]

i saw another comment mention this too but highly recommend the channel called sideways for musical analysis! he goes really in depth on musical theory but in such an engaging way and i have learned a lot from his videos. he covers a lot of sondheim.

[@crichtonmusic]

Putting It Together is a cracking podcast as was this video!

[@lucileec4495]

The West Side Story comment slightly shattered my heart, ngl ;) Such a great video though, made me think of that podcast Evil or Genius

[@adiosepic1829]

A high school English teacher of mine was a complete douche, but one thing he said stuck with me for 15 years now - there is no original thought, only someone building on something that already existed. I didn't expect to come across this concept again in the video, but the discussion had been a welcome refresher. The notion that there's no such thing as genius in the popular sense of the term, but rather someone's perseverance combined with turn of circumstances is both disappointing and inspiring.

[@madcaptainsundy]

Thank you for sharing these ideas! Your video is very enlightening, especially for me as a writer, actor, musical theatre nerd, and someone who tends to put way too many people (including Sondheim) on a pedestal. I'm agnostic as well, but I believe there is something magical about creative work being several people's combined interpretations of hundreds of thousands of creative work and history and concepts that have influenced their lives. I like to think that magic exists -- not necessarily in the sense of spellbooks and dragons (although I'm not opposed to the possibility), more in the sense of magic as the connective tissue of the world, some combination of fate and happenstance and empathy and interrelatedness and human knowledge that ties everyone and everything together in ways we may never completely understand. May Sondheim rest in peace. I hope he recognized on some level how deeply his work impacted so many people. Or not his work, I guess, more like each amalgamation of pre-existing ideas that was created through his contribution of skills and perspectives as a composer, lyricist, creator, and human. I particularly loved these things you said, so I'm just going to leave them here for when I come back to this video over and over and over again: "Isolation isn't really how most great work has been made" "I think when we tap into our own creativity and sit down with the blank page and we're like: what should we create? maybe we don't need to look for blank pieces of paper to pull from but actually just look at problems to solve -- look at narratives that existed before and how to fix them or to make them better." "When you encounter what you perceive as one person's genius, you're actually probably encountering hundreds, if not thousands of people's geniuses or cleverness transposed and retold over millennia." "The collective genius of humans, the received work that everyone has been doing over generations...this idea that it's like 'I see something through you, in you, I got a glimpse of something cool through you, thank you' rather than like "oh my god, you are god, you're a genius, I will worship you, you're my idol now'" "On the one hand, genius is expected to be splendid and solitary. On the other, it is called upon to resemble all. Alas, reality is more complex. Balzac suggesting in a sentence the genius resembles everyone and no one resembles him. The artist chooses his object as much as he is chosen by it. Art, in a sense, is a revolt against everything fleeting and unfinished in the world." "...this idea that good work comes from weird and murky and complicated places" "It seems to me the only way to make anything pretty good is to at least start and hopefully all the weird and wonderful stuff happens to you along the way"

[@intunewithmasha1529]

Leena, thanks a lot for the video! All of those ideas resonate with me. I write songs when I have time for it and all of them are just the product of the tunes or lines that my brain has accumulated throughout the years of listening to all sorts of music imaginable! When I tell people around that a song came to me in my dream - it does happen from time to time - they start thinking of some divine intervention. Even my husband thinks I sort of connected to some divine channels😂 I’m an atheist and truly convinced it’s just some of the songs I’ve heard combined together. P.s. I’m such a fan of your video essays, thanks a million for sharing your thoughts and research with us🤍

[@jazeolo]

On the topic of writing about something you haven't experienced - Joni Mitchell, who wrote the song Woodstock, which has come to be the defining song about that festival and that whole moment in history really, wasn't actually there; she watched it on TV because she was doing a performance elsewhere and couldn't be there. It seems that that outsider perspective she had was what enabled her to write the song, so perhaps there's something to be said about an outsider being able to reveal things about an event or experience that those who are in the midst of it wouldn't be able to see.

[@beatm6948]

0:51 same, except the person screening the thing is my dad, and it's music from an artist that just died, and his "mode of transport" is KZbin. It's nice though

[@niahowells101]

I like the harry potter and the sacred text podcast, which say that art becomes sacred when it generates more art

[@patrickinsoho4777]

This was interesting. Two elements in an excellent discussion jarred. There was an argument that Sondheim wasn’t a genius as he worked with collaborators, as was openly known. That for me doesn’t prove he wasn’t a genius. Newton stated he saw further than others as he stood in the shoulders of giants. A second argument that genius doesn’t exist seemed to make the whole discussion pointless. That said, the bulk of the material was well-considered and interesting. I suspect a video entitled “Reflections on Sondheim” would have got way fewer clicks, but been way more interesting. It could also open up fuller discussion on your views about Sondheim and power, class, gender and race - where I would love to hear your views.

[@onestepatatime7412]

this video blew my mind a little bit... feeling extra creative now, thanks leena!

[@hadassahm3016]

This is really eerie, I was just talking about Sondheim yesterday and his integration of the dies irae into Sweeney Todd Edit: I'm just watching more of the video and you mention it too. Feeling deja vu

[@thebugbear]

I'm a little distracted by the fact that Angela Lansbury was in Sweeney Todd?!! But I loved this video as well, so many things to think about.

[@martinsorenson1055]

Yes, she did a lot of things before becoming Mrs. Potts and Jessica Fletcher. If you want to see her in a completely different role, watch The Manchurian Candidate from 1962. It's old, and in black and white, and she's amazing in it.

[@anna-maymoon1001]

Weirdly, this was such an inspirational video??? I've been plugging away at my novel for like 10 years now (on and off) and this just??? Gave me hope that maybe I'll actually solve the damn puzzle in the end???

[@leenanorms]

YOU TOTALLY WILL!

[@kate4138]

Hi Leena! I know its irrelevant to the video but don't have any other way of asking, may you do a video on the best sustainable fashion brands? such as Lucy & Yak (love!) but I can't seem to find those in-between brands that offer colour and reasonable price...as though I thoroughly adore L&Y I do sometimes like more fitted pieces for sophisticated meals/days/travel. This being so I can either purchase or search for them second hand as I can't always get away with relaxed fitting clothes such as L&Y but still want the sustainability and transparency. Trying to broaden and educate myself more and more but getting a little lost in the seemingly limitless amount of websites on google and not knowing where to start. Many thanks, love your videos!

[@leenanorms]

Thought and Know the Origin are great places to start! 🧡

[@reann4233]

I love this take. Will be carrying it with me when consuming & creating media from now on 🌟

[@benjamindoyle8403]

I think the greatest musical theater writers/composers/etc are also the greatest collaborators. There’s no way to avoid that a Broadway show can’t be one person’s work alone. I agree that genius is not well-defined in popular culture. Sondheim had some unique talents - a marked talent for puzzles and anagrams that I think helped a lot in his approach to musical and lyrical structure. As a composer, I think what I love about Sondheim, perhaps more than his shows even, is how open and honest he was about his own craft. He would not have called himself a genius - he was happy to explain his craft, and how it worked, and who else deserved credit, and I think part of his legacy in theater stems from how willing he was to be a wellspring of knowledge to others. “Sondheim on Music” and his “Finishing the Hat” books alone comprise some of the most insightful books on theater writing I’ve ever read.

[@heididewhirst]

What?! West Side Story is my absolute fave!

[@bdrogin]

The title of the video is a teaser, but the content is actually spot-on. Ms. Norms touches on the romanticist idea of the lone genius working from a point of complete originality (tabula rasa), and how this just isn't how anything happens, especially not in theater, where the modus operandi is, "if you can't collaborate, you don't belong in the theater." Sondheim worked with Leonard Bernstein (in fact, Bernstein wrote half of the lyrics to "West Side Story," and gave Sondheim the gift of solo credit), with Hal Prince, with Jonathan Tunick, he stole Michael Starobin and James Lapine from William Finn, with George Furth and James Goldman, etc., etc. Since pastiche was a major "style" of Sondheim, he stole from too many pre-existing musics to list (Follies being the ultimate). I'd just like to add the missing insight that limits and constraints actually fuel creativity (like the steal reference in the comments below, I believe this also comes from Stravinsky). There are many, many examples of last-minute numbers looked upon later as fantastic pieces, for Sondheim, Ms. Norms mentions "Send in the Clowns," but there is also "Comedy Tonight" and "Being Alive," and, while we're on the subject, Kander and Ebbs' "New York, New York." And, to blow everyone's mind, the most covered song in history, "Mack the Knife" - the simple melody was written by Bertolt Brecht, not Kurt Weill! Bottom line, Sondheim was an original unoriginal, a master craftsman at lyrics, a master of harmony, a total master of creating songs for the musical theater that can be ACTED. He was a critic's darling until "Sweeney Todd," and then destroyed by the public with "Merrily We Roll Along." Whether anyone on this planet is a "genius," is "great," has created a "masterpiece," these are meaningless categories. Brava!

[@alifortunygc5588]

Im spanish and i got so confused when i heard the translation of “ole” as”god in you” (???) in what world?

[@MargaretPinard]

Ooh, I LOVE bringing the genius concept back around to Olé and god-in-you! Yes!!

[@allisonthabit7639]

Your videos always educate me and also make me feel a bit better about the world; best combination

[@paulnagle7017]

When it comes down to it there are very few completely original stories. And I don't really buy your idea that he wasn't involved in the conceptualization of projects - especially the ones he worked on with Prince and then with Lapine. Sondheim's genius was in understanding how to musicalize stories and creating a world within each song. He was also an excellent collaborator and a mentor to many young artists. Being available for opportunity - like the ship listing story, is itself an art of observation - another sort of genius. Sondheim himself talks about his dependence on his rhyming dictionaries and the role of problem-solving. I really don't get why you think any of this diminishes his genius. Sure he was self-effacing, a good strategy for a genius in order not to seem insufferable. He certainly was aware of his role in reshaping the modern musical and promoted that legacy without seeming to. Another stroke of genius.

[@ellasmith6013]

I always thought West Side Story was by Leonard Bernstein, so was totally surprised when people started saying that Sondheim had a hand in it. 😅 Anyway the music is amazing and if you haven't heard Joshua Bell playing Maria from the West Side Story Suite, I highly recommend it!

[@heidisegelke6243]

Part of genius is subconscious accumulation of existing materials and conventions and transmuting them into something completely new. The do-re-mi scale came from the antiquated Hymn to St. John; it formed the diatonic scale and pretty much formed the basis of Western Music and tonality…yeah-I’m pretty much convinced that Guido D’Arezzo … and Stephen Sondheim are geniuses.

[@RosalindPeters]

I really needed that. Thank you Leena!

[@jimswenson6131]

I am convinced that you have removed critical comments of your video, leaving what appears to be broad support.

[@samanthaburns6956]

another good refrence for the music of sweeney todd is a video by Sideways kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2WuXmx7oN-WaKM they are a super cool music analyser

[@moo639]

You "didn't know much about Sondheim," but clearly you know very little about musicals period. Very FEW musicals are completely original, they are almost always BASED ON something--a novel, a film, a play. Yes, West Side Story was based on Romeo and Juliet. That doesn't make it a rip-off. How can you be so naive? And they are nearly always collaborations. You don't seem to live in the real world.

[@anaantonini8397]

About the creative genius thing: I'd say is not even something that is just true for creative stuff, e.g: we all have this image of the genius lone scientist in our minds but most science is done as a collaboration, and even if you're the sole author of a paper it went through peer review (meaning other people also helped shape it)

[@claudiajade624]

THIS but for all scientific breakthroughs/discoveries. So so many people over literal generations, and almost always a reasonably-sized direct team working to make anything and everything happen.

[@princesspiranha]

For everyone enjoying this video, I really recommend the Kermit the Frog Tedtalk! It's about creativity too and it had a good an wholesome message. :)

[@kens9531]

didn’t know anything about this man coming into this video but i am so glad for this analysis and perspective. another great video

[@jamiepop123]

Plus theatre is one of THE most collaborative art forms! I think that’s part of its magic.

[@jackl.gansner6102]

Damn, I was hesitant going into this video but you make some really solid points, especially when it comes to the concepts of genius and originality and how we define them. I am also a pretentious asshole and very much appreciated this video

[@jasminelizabeth96]

I enjoyed this video so SO much! One of my favourites you've made :)

[@9thgalaxy778]

Leena this video is mind blowing!

[@moo639]

When asked if he was influenced by Rachmaninoff, Sondheim said "No, I was not influenced by Rachmaninoff; I stole from Rachmaninoff!"

[@EricMontreal22]

OK she lost me with "West Side Story is not the best musically..." It is funny though how for decades critics and others wished Sondheim would stick to lyrics as they felt his music would never approach genius like Bernstein's score for West Side Story. (Don't get me wrong--I love Sondheim more due to his music than lyrics, just...) Yeah, this is a very weird take to make a 20 minute video about. Also... he was a big part of West Side Story and Gypsy (and Do I Hear a Waltz). Finding out he "just" did lyrics and so deciding, to quote this video, that you found out "he wasn't a big part of those projects" really minimizes just how much he was a part of both show's conception. This wasn't like a recent Andrew Lloyd Webber show where the lyricist is hired as a seeming after thought... I do agree with her final point that we tend to like to credit one person as the true genius for these works when many were involved. And yes, the only shows that Sondheim initiated were Sweeney, Passion (both brilliant) and the troubled Bounce/Road Show. But it's also true that few of his collaborators ever worked to the same level with other composers--Hal Prince directed some other great musicals, but none of his book writers wrote as well for musicals by other composers... Which tells you something. And as David said below, Sondheim would be the first to agree with this point--he HATED that people called these shows "Sondheim's Company" etc and not "Furth and Sondheim's Company" (not to crap on Lloyd Webber again but I seriously doub t he has any problem with his musicals, after Tim Rice, being credited solely as Andrew Lloyd Webber's Phantom of the Opera....)

[@sarahannekerley8681]

So what you're saying is that, "if you're gonna bump it, bump it with a trumpet..." was NOT genius??

[@fearlessknits1]

I've always liked the idea that, from a 4 dimensional perspective, the human race resembles less individual people doing their lives, but more branches of a tree. We all stand on the shoulders of those around us and the creativity of people who've come before, and I think that's beautiful. It also profoundly takes the pressure off; I don't have to do anything amazing to contribute to the future of humanity, I just have to try and be nice to people and share good and interesting things, and I can trust that if I do that, I'll be moving us in the right direction.

[@SM-BSW]

I think it's important to remember that all musicals and pieces of media are group efforts. I knew into the woods as a Sondheim and lupine musical, because their names were on the CD I listened to on a loop. Sondheim never made a secret of all the influences in his work or the privileges he occupied. In terms of influences, I'm reminded of terry Pratchett, who said that he looked at folklore the way that carpenters look at trees. I hate the idea of the auteur genius theory anyway. I still think that Sondheim was a brilliant composer and lyricist.

[@gamewrit0058]

Angela Lansbury was in a stage production of Sweeny Todd 42 years ago? (1979-1981 US tour.) Sweet!

[@MargaretPinard]

OK, I guess I see your point(s), but I still feel (from the outside, as neither a musician nor a lyricist) that Merrily We Roll Along has some amazing musical creativity and lyrical puzzles solved. Was it his idea? Maybe not, but certainly expanded my repertoire! :D

[@whammy8139]

Amazing video!!!

[@geraldine1744]

for all the famous people hailed as geniuses, how many people of equally or superior talent were just stuck in minimum wage jobs because no we do not live in a meritocracy

[@MinnieBirch]

Loved this! Thank you for this, so interesting x

[@marln2157]

i love your conclusion and the overall criticism of the concept of "genius"!

[@TheVCRTimeMachine]

I just saw Sweeney Todd last night on Broadway. First time I have ever seen it. All the actors were amazingly talented, the sets, the lighting, etc, marvelous. A couple of memorable tunes, but the show itself was mad boring for most of the first act and in the end I thought it was just plain dumb.

[@oldvlognewtricks]

3:31 - “wasn’t a big part of those projects” You think so?

[@elizabethladd8650]

Have you read Art Worlds by Howard Becker?

[@fiddeou]

West side story's music was very very very dissonant and quite avant-garde. That's why it doesn't connect a lot with audiences, but, if you ask any composer or music theorist, they will say it's a friggin masterpiece. Personally, the only thing I don't like about west side story's music is the fact that Bernstein didn't really bother to understand the latin rhythms he thought he was using.