Sonic Heroes & The Value of Innovation

[@NezumiVA]

Pinned comment question: if you could make your own three-man Sonic Heroes style team of _any characters_ from _any media property_ - who would be in it, what would it be called, and why?

[@LupinticDream]

@@sixfootundertheseafloor The correct answer.

[@mep15067]

Definitely the glitch trio from idw sonic, they're pretty new but id love another evil team, and I love their messed up dynamic. Id suggest tangle and whisper but there's a bit of a gap for the third spot in that team

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

Classic Sonic, Modern Sonic and Boom Sonic

[@ieatatsonic]

Futurama kinda did this in the superhero episode. Fry is speed, Leela is power, and Bender is flight (by way of extending his robo legs really far)

[@ava5030]

Sora, Mario and Sonic. Because it'd be the ultimate childhood team.

[@Splonton]

Metal Sonic: Why couldn't I beat you? I have all of your abilities and more! Sonic: You could copy our abilities, but you couldn't copy some bitches

[@Hynotama]

Back in the day, when I played this game on my first computer, it took me about two years to find the last story. It happened when I wanted to play Team Chaotix and I held the right arrow key pressed instead of tapping it, making the cursor go the the final story that was just off screen. I don't know what they were smoking when they decided to put that off screen. This is my first 3D Sonic game. And Sonic Adventure DX was my second. But I finished Sonic Adventure first because of this.

[@ToaArcan]

I love "What I'm Made Of" as a duel song, kinda like With Me from Black Knight. "One by one they've all become/A number as they fall" is definitely a Neo Metal line, considering that he's literally taken raw data, unique streams of ones and zeroes, from each of the characters as he's made himself stronger. Then "One by one they've all become/A black mark on the floor" is Sonic's retort, listing off all the previous Sonic robots he and his friends have trashed over the years.

[@123silverslash]

This era of sonic has always been my favorite, and that includes the tongue in cheek enjoyment at best Shadow game. I’m a bit disheartened to see you won’t talk about it until 50k subs, but you’re skilled and entertaining, so I have no doubt you’ll get there sooner rather than later.

[@NezumiVA]

I appreciate that! The only reason I'm holding off is because if I'm going to sincerely make a thorough video about it, I'm going to have to play _at least_ all 10 of the main routes, plus the final story, and as I've made no secret: playing that game is an actively painful experience for me, lol. Comedic exaggeration aside, I really do only suffer while playing it, so it felt like the sort of thing I'd want to save for a special occasion, because otherwise I would just _not_ be motivated haha.

[@niicespiice]

it is close

[@KaiboStudios]

For the first two stages you covered, while I was listening I automatically started singing the sonic paradox songs. Those lyrics are engraved into my memory.

[@Chaos.A]

Same, they've utterly ruined those two songs for me lol

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

Same here lol

[@techdeckdudes_]

sonic heroes and the value of a grind mechanic that actually works

[@ChristianLakhan]

I would often enough imagine there being another game like Sonic Heroes.

[@frandolled]

i love learning more and more about this series through you and through your videos!! it gives me such an appreciation for it and makes we want to engage with it all even more

[@Jr-Reed]

Yes. Yes I did notice the lack of shine throughout the entire video. I'm glad it was pointed out

[@NezumiVA]

Truthfully I would have preferred to record without the mod for authenticity’s sake, but honestly when I started I hadn’t thought about it and I got so far that there was _no way_ I was going to re-record from the start at that point lol.

[@tarynharpyr4743]

I think this is an excellent assessment. This game can be a mess at times, but it really impacted me in a way no other game could even approach and to this day I find it incredibly charming. Great work and I hope to see more videos like this!

[@jetstreamjackie3437]

My only experience with this game was trying to borrow it from a friend, and then realizing too late they didn't actually have the game, they had an empty Sonic Heroes case containing Super Mario Sunshine. Sounds like a fun time tho

[@cable_g0re]

i actually wanted to point something out about the theme of team rose 'Follow me', all three of them are looking for someone very important to them, amy is looking for sonic, big is looking for froggy, and cream is looking for chocola! I feel like the theme is less about just amy and her search for sonic, but instead the team as a whole and their shared goal of trying to find their lost friends!

[@MowseChao]

41:13 Every time I went to this stage I was like "How does Eggman afford all of this stuff considering how often we break it?" 48:40 And now I'm like... How can he NOT afford to pay these guys? Just give them an aircraft carrier to compensate.

[@tinycatfriend]

this game was my childhood! unfortunately, i have terrible dexterity and was given the PS2 version. i had no baseline for how difficult a video game should reasonably be (the PS2 was the first console my family ever owned), so i spent YEARS battling my way through the levels. i only ever completed team rose. i didn't realize how ridiculous this was til i got my hands on a PC port just last year and rediscovered, to my horror, that it was borderline unplayable by my adult gaming standards i still have such nostalgia for it though, and i'd love an HD remaster one day. or a mod that somehow disables fall deaths. either one! anyway, this video was a joy to watch, thank you! not enough folks talk about heroes, i was so excited to sit down and enjoy a whole hour's worth of content all about the game i grew up with :)

[@ScapeVEVO]

I love Shonen Sonic Give me him back

[@SafirasAltAccount610]

Not my brain only hearing the Seaside Hill theme and only registering 'Seaside Denied', so I then have to rewind to the beginning to hear what's being said 😔✋

[@TwinkleStar707]

I honestly think follow me does work for big and cream, just not in the most conventional sense. While other teams show off comraderie and teamwork more, team rose encapsulates the concept of love itself more strongly. Romantic love for Amy, familial love for Cream (as Cheese and probably by extention Chocola too are like family to her), and a love for friends in Big's case. Follow me does admittedly seem romantic, but to me it can also be about other forms of love.

[@AustinOnSugar]

This was wonderfully thorough on one of my favourite games from the series! Heroes has its flaws but I still make time every two years or so to all-A the game, and I am (weirdly) still not sick of that tradition by now. It's really nice to hear this game explored critically without bashing it for honestly brilliant choices, and you even pointed out a few things with the story I hadn't noticed before. Thank you!

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

I agree with making a game for new fans and old fans. It was a great choice for the time.

[@michaelkindt3288]

@48:44-.-I still like to think he made do on that promise in forces.

[@megasoniczxx]

31:25 Okay great, i'm glad i'm not the only one who was put off by these things as a kid. It was the same with the ghosts in SA2 actually and both were the reasons why I didn't end up beating both games until way later. Up until then I just replayed the games until the parts where each started showing up on and then i'd just start over.

[@Realdeal958]

I'm so glad it's not just me. I always hated those ghosts in sa2 and for the longest time I just never beat it. To this day, I can do it but I still find them creepy. Those damn jumpscares lol.

[@khesieverlynn]

Oh My God! Sonic Heroes!!! Honestly thought I'd never see an essay-style video on this, especially since most people (from what I've seen) don't talk about it much. But while I would love to watch this vid, I just can't. Because you see, I haven't finished the game yet. When I was a kid (around 6-7), our next door neighbors had a PS2, and since they were moving and didn't need it, they decided to give it to us. Some games also came with it. One of them was Sonic Heroes. This was my first taste into world of video games. I adored that game a lot. The characters looked cool (Rogue definitely peaked my gay interest lol), the game was pretty and the theme song was killer (it still is). But there was one problem. I would play through the first few areas of the game just fine, but half way through the rain forest area, the game would freeze up. And no matter how many times I played it or what team I used, it wouldn't progress further than that. I'm not really quite sure why this was. Maybe it was faulty from the start or my neighbors and accidentally did something to it. But either way, I couldn't complete it. So as most kids do when they get bored of something, they move on. I've always promised myself that I would try get a PS2 and try to finish it one day; as an owed to my childhood. As such, I try to avoid spoilers (silly I know). So as much as I like your content, and I'm sure this one is great too, I'm gonna have to save this one for later.

[@NezumiVA]

May I recommend playing any other version, though? Lol. Nostalgia notwithstanding, the PS2 version is the most poorly optimized. It has a lot of framerate errors and collision issues that aren’t nearly as bad in the Gamecube or Xbox versions.

[@tinycatfriend]

i can confirm that the original windows XP ports DO still work, and with an xbox controller! it's not on steam, but with some sleuthing and i'm sure you can find it :)

[@frankenfreakie]

surprised you didn't mention Casino Park theme re: the music! i'm addicted to that song, though... maybe that's just the Stockholm syndrome from how long i would get stuck on those two levels as a kid talking LMAO

[@grawlixTV]

WAIT, IS THAT WHY METAL SONIC IS SO DEPRESSED IN THE MANIA CARTOON?? That's so cool

[@frankenfreakie]

this is probably the sonic game i played the most as a kid, mostly because i was stuck on different levels on each team and was desperately trying to figure out how to beat for 3 years. On both Team Sonic and Shadow I was stuck on Power Plant, because I kept dying on the lava chase scene and it scared the CRAP out of me. On Team Rose I was stuck on Egg Emperor, because as you said, SOOOOOO fucking annoying. I must've retried a hundred times. And on Team Chaotix I couldn't get past a locked door on Hang Castle because that's when my vision started to go and through the fuzz of my little CRT TV I couldn't see that I was supposed to use Vector to break a part of the wall to access a pull switch. I also use to spend a lot of time in the extras menus listening to the music and recording them on my MP3 player so I could listen to the team themes on the bus (TEAM CHAOTIX #1)

[@ultimateshadeofwar]

51:01 A... Lets call it good point, for the bad PC port, it's that the special stages are so broken, that just running on the celling without boosting makes it, so that you will *ALWAYS* get the emeralds... So there is that.

[@Naterkix]

The best team blast is clearly Team Chaotix. "BEE BEE BEE!!!'

[@anmanarrative]

Brilliant work. I love these long videos, and I've been very excited to watch this one. Sonic Heroes is a game I remember playing a lot and I still like it; the colourful levels, the great soundtrack and all the fun little quips from the characters. This was actually the first Sonic game I ever played, I've never really been into the series (honestly I spent more time with the tv shows than the games) and while I can't say Sonic Heroes made me a huge fan it got me interested enough to try more games.

[@solar5431]

Most nostalgic sonic game openings

[@maginary999]

this video bout to be fire, time to binge all your other ones in preparation Can confirm this was a fire video

[@dragonsswarm1987]

When I was a kid I was under the impression that team Sonic was hard mode and team Dark was the normal mode. Edit: the city zone was part of the reason why if I remember correctly.

[@techdeckdudes_]

nezumi you are Based as fuck for opening this video with collision chaos present

[@Airoehead]

midway through, got so blindsided by the parody voice acting summary at 38:01 that was really good. I'd love to see you fit more plot overviews into VA skits if you don't often

[@cyberchocolate64]

What you said about it being left ambiguous if Shadow is a clone or not isn't true if the final boss battle goes on for long enough eggman will confirm he's the original in a bit of dialogue.

[@NezumiVA]

I was talking purely about in this game. Shadow the Hedgehog didn't come out until afterward. At the time that _this_ game came out, it was left intentionally ambiguous.

[@DrakeValos]

Take this! Take this! Take this! Take this!

[@DDRDAIKENKAI]

What I'm Made Of literally gets me every time. A well done video.

[@SuperLegendOf364]

Holy crap! A positive Sonic Heroes video? I gotta watch this.

[@alexandrachernysh7]

Thank you for this wonderful video, Sonic Heroes is one of my favorite games of the series. I'm pretty certain Cream already existed in Sonic Adventure, you would occasionally see her flying over Station Square for a split second

[@NezumiVA]

She was added specifically in the DX port, yeah. In fact, if I'm not mistaken it's actually just her model from Heroes, too, albeit with some uh...texture problems.

[@alexandrachernysh7]

@@NezumiVA Thank you ^^

[@tidepoolclipper8657]

Sonic Heroes had the opportunity to be innovative, but was ultimately hampered by the glitchyness of the PS2 version, the slippery as heck controls, team vs team battles being a chore, a story that doesn't pick up all that much and has some really dumb moments until the final story, no real level variance for all four teams, getting into special stages being a pain in the butt, pointlessly giving non-armored and/or large enemies health bars, glitchy rail grinding, levels being too long outside of Team Rose, tedious and boring missions for Team Chaotix, and not making the different speed, power, and flight character feel unique enough from each other (like how Knuckles lost the ability to wall climb). Sonic Heroes in general is where Eggman began as a villainous punching bag and wouldn't recover from it until he became the main villain again in Colors or started to become more of an active threat in Sonic Forces.

[@Warclam]

I can't count myself as a connoisseur of Sonic songs-I haven't actually, um, played any of the games-Team Chaotix is my favourite. Whenever I hear the word "chaotic" there's about a 50/50 chance it starts playing in my head.

[@lunarbunny8098]

This was my first sonic game and I loved it 💕

[@DiableJambe_rt]

Out of the 4 teams in terms of characterization team dark feels more genuine and organic as a group. Much like team sonic but they've always been a trio. I would love to see a game just based off team dark but that's just the adventure 2 in me and Sega would probably scuff it up anyway

[@gamefreakDX]

Bingo Highway is actually my favourite casino-themed stage... conceptually. The pinball stages suck because of the physics, though I think the bingo gimmick was done well. We wouldn't see another unique casino gimmick until the Studiopolis lottery.

[@giraffedragon6110]

This is the only Sonic game I’ve ever played and it’s among my favorites!

[@CuddIebone]

this video brought back such fond memories of watching my older sister play through heros for the first time. (...when she wasnt screaming at the tv)

[@Dash123456789Brawl]

Big The Cat, sex appeal discussion: Well he’s Duke Nukem. That’s why he exudes sexual energy.

[@JamalGardner1]

1:19 Let's do this!

[@slim_streams]

Say what you want about rail canyon but i love bullet station from a purely aesthetic perspective

[@0megaFan]

This was actually one of the very first games I ever remember playing and, while I get frustrated with it today and see all it's flaws, I can't deny how much I adore it. Plus it introduced Omega who remains my favorite Sonic character and favorite character in all media in general so that's a big up.

[@DexDexter0]

Eggman intended the Cahotix to disrupt Metal, particularly having them trash the Shadow capsules in and around the canyon. I always assumed he tipped off Rouge to bust Shadow out as well.

[@ryancier]

Loved the video. I still can't help but wonder though, even though "Heroes" is the gimmick of the teams, why this game just wasn't called Sonic Adventure 3. It follows suit from the continuity of 1 and 2 so starkly. It wants to be a direct continuation of those stories. I'm partly just whinging, but it's a curious thing to me. It also makes me wonder why Sonic X didn't cover this story in the anime, and instead did that whole Meterex filler.

[@NezumiVA]

Well, Iizuka said they didn’t want to use the Adventure title so it wouldn’t alienate the new multiplatform audience who hadn’t played the previous games. As for Sonic X, I’d honestly say I think the game adaptations were the most poorly handled part, and the JP Metarex saga (while not perfect) is the best part of the show imo, and I would have much preferred that to a sloppy Heroes adaptation.

[@ryancier]

@@NezumiVA gotcha. Yeah i did like that Tails x Cosmo thing in the Meterex saga.

[@ellagage1256]

Fun fact about the Casino levels, almost all the tables can be skipped by taking the correct tube and the ones you can't you just "skip" by falling out of the bottom of the table. Massively improved my enjoyment of these levels and they're some of my favorites now. Still unintuitive as hell though 😅

[@trashymc4564]

You hit the nail on the head of the lost grounding the sonic series had. I do enjoy a good meme... but they just seem to Flanderize so much. Also that ending line is powerful xD

[@lunarexorcist]

only 20 minutes in but team rose's theme is one of the best sonic lyric songs thank you sonic heroes

[@dedoyxp]

I think the jankyness of Sonic Heroes is what makes it charming... I just realized I dont play that much sonic series but I love sonic just because of Sonic Heroes alone I dont know why the team doesnt revive the team mechanism into other sonic games... and some sonic I played is Sonic Adventure DX, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Run, Sonic Rider I could say I like sonic on 3d more than on 2d platform, but seems like most sonic fans doesnt agreed

[@TheRmbomo]

Sonic Heroes is pretty much my only experience with the Sonic franchise, and is a nostalgic childhood game for me all the same. Thanks for making a video on it ^^

[@SuperStar-ss1pn]

50:03 Good guy metal? Sounds like an interesting idea

[@000Dragon50000]

I still wish Team Rose had made AMY the power character and brought in someone else for Speed, perhaps blaze?

[@lightpriv3425]

I agree, Amy works way better as a power character lmao. Also, hate to be that guy, but Blaze was introduced in Sonic Rush (2005) and this is Sonic Heroes (2003), so Blaze didn’t actually exist yet when this game was being developed lol.

[@000Dragon50000]

@@lightpriv3425 Fair point, but surely Sega could dig up an extra speedster from somewhere else easily enough.

[@mayayamato7351]

"they needed to aim higher" subtle SA2 fandub eggman laser piss scene nod?

[@NezumiVA]

Unintentional but honestly, it may have been a subconscious thing lol.

[@LibraGaymer]

omg this video made me feel SO nostalgic i haven't played this game since i was a kid but i remember how much i loooved playing this w my sister

[@emmavoid]

Another great vid! I really appreciate how much your care and love for this series shines through, whether you're making fun of the broken parts or praising the best stuff :3

[@ScapeVEVO]

We gotta talk about the absolute banger that is the main menu theme which got brought back for Gens

[@SolarDraws]

This game, going back, made me remember why I love Sonic. While yes, it's very buggy, and I will always mention it, the things it did, graphics, style, characters, soundtrack, it feels so good to hear people having the same feelings.

[@PedroHCF37]

29:20 Also! The Chaotix thought Omega counted for an Eggman robot they had to destroy.

[@RickySama240]

I remember seeing the commercials for Sonic Heroes and played this game a ton when i was a child. This was a great video essay Nezumi! :D

[@vampiricn1ght]

Gods... I remember seeing promos for Heroes everywhere, my friends all having copies but I never got to play it. I'm still trying to find a decent emulator copy so I can finally experience this game despite years of spoilers

[@seabassstudios9150]

Sonic Heroes was my first 3d Sonic game. Alright lets go!

[@Cute___E]

Here's hoping we reach that 50k special, I need more people to talk about Shadow the Hedgehog

[@Flare8295]

I was so confused about the last part before the outro

[@PhysicsGamer]

47:29 is a good point but I'm hoping some of that same energy can work its way back in with the announcement that Ian Flynn is going to be writing for the 2022 Sonic game. I've wanted that for the last decade and a half so I'm *super* hyped for it.

[@NezumiVA]

*Extremely* agreed. I've always loved Ian's writing for the series, and though I know he'll certainly have restrictions given the format (and probably an outline he was given), I have no doubt he can work within them to deliver something special, just like Maekawa did.

[@ultimateshadeofwar]

42:16 And it's a *SACRILAGE* that it wasn't on generations... Seriously, this level should had been in generations.

[@theythemma]

this game being on neither game pass nor playstation now is the greatest tragedy of the modern age

[@Badwolfwho1]

Sonic Heroes is the only Sonic game I started but couldn't finish because those Chaos Emerald stages were just too hard for child me to clear no matter how many times I tried and I tried a lot so I never got the last story. I'd never played Adventure 2 just Adventure 1 so this was actually my first introduction to Shadow and I thought he was super cool here, I was so invested I got Shadow the Hedgehog when it came out.

[@Hamletonium]

This video made me happy. Thanks :D

[@TreyTheWilliam]

I picked up Sonic Heroes yesterday. It's been quite the weird experience so far but I kinda love it?

[@mr_mykal]

Rail canyon and bullet station permanently made me uneasy in any rail section in every Sonic game after Heroes. I always feel like I'm going to randomly get shunted into the void changing rails... Jank aside, it's my favorite level theme wise. Sonic Heroes is definitely the most charming game, and I feel like if they had gotten the time they needed it, it could have really been something great. But Sega always has to be Sega...

[@Alianger]

This is cool though I expected more of a general in-depth discussion of innovation than of Sonic Heroes itself, which I haven't played hehe

[@kittygardenva2741]

Favorite sonic game reviewed by one of my favorite Sonic youtubers

[@trixievelvet]

Wow! This is a great video and very informative ♥ Thank you for making this!

[@axelprino]

I'd love it if this game got a remaster, nothing too fancy, just wide screen and some bug fixing. But this was made with renderware so I guess that's just a big nope unless they port it to a new engine and we know how well that went for Colors.

[@LupinticDream]

Ayy, it's been awhile since Nezumi's talked about our Lord and Savior: Sun Knock Dee Heedge Hurg. This should be good.

[@OkairMcLaren]

Amy can do the triangle jump/wall jump

[@alicescarlet9960]

Woah! Kind of coincidental timing, my fiance and I actually started marathoning the mainline Sonic games recently and I recently finished up Sonic Heroes and then Shadow the Hedgehog just last night. There were definitely some frustrating parts to the game, some parts kinda made me wanna pull out my hair because, as you mentioned, it was probably a bad idea to marathon it lmao. But I do genuinely love the game despite those problems. I'm interested in seeing your Shadow the Hedgehog video when that comes out, I... actually enjoyed it a lot, although I think it's a bit more of a "guilty pleasure" type of enjoyment (aaaaand there may have been a good amount of cheating on my part to avoid having to play the same levels twice) - just like Heroes I recognize its flaws, and some of those same flaws are present and even worse than in Heroes (arguably much worse), but something in my brain finds it oddly satisfying.

[@youramazingvulptexwife4180]

Great video essay! Subbed!

[@miadatenshi9903]

19:38 IAn FlYnN rEfeRencEs!!

[@sonicheroesmadsnes]

No one talks about the hard mode, it's the best part 😗

[@MilesWingsOficial]

I just discovered you and I love your voice

[@JusSageMakes]

oh a vid on sonic heroes LETS GOOO!

[@imthecoolestguyalive]

... HOLY SHIT, I WAS BORN IN THE YEAR OF SONIC!!!!!

[@justalittleloser2482]

that was really fun to watch!! heres hoping you get to 50k subs soon so you'll talk about the one sonic game i HAVE played...

[@lpfan4491]

This game...is Sonic Heroes. And it has good music. That's basically how I feel about it. At least the positive part of it. I actually played with good physics through mods and I still didn't have a lot of fun with the game. The Pinball-level is cryptonite, I dislike the combat, the lack of polish got me(Especially because I am playing these games on PC and the PC-port ain't it chief), the story is ok I guess and the actual levels were...fine mostly, just not good enough for me to consider replaying. I am basically judging the game on Team Dark alone, because it's the only team I actually wanted to play(Because of Shadow) and it is also the "most complete experience" in that it has the longest levels and the most meaty story.(Edit: What I mean to say is, I won't play the other teams because I already don't like the game)

[@AAhmou]

"The combat" is nothing more than switching to the right character and hitting a button a couple of times.

[@lpfan4491]

@@AAhmou That is, until stuff that is supposed to autoaim decides to automiss instead and I literally don't do any damage, even tho I attack where the weakspot is supposed to be. The biggest kicker is that I have no issues with the combat in any other game with healthbars that I played. Shadow? Works. 06? Works. Unwiished? Works, even if the shaky hitdetection makes some attacks miss. It's really just Heroes that I have bigger issues with.

[@moonchild-kr9xk]

Thanks for the great video!

[@ShadowFanE102]

38:25 no wait that's kinda romantic tho,,,,,

[@vivyblue]

Aw man, I was hyped for that analysis on Big's sex appeal. I wanted to see if he lived up to his name.

[@GeaForce]

My headcannon is that Big the Cat is actually a divorced dad on a shared custody going on a roadtrip

[@buttercupkat]

"YOU DIDN'T REALLY THINK YOU'D ESCAPED ME, DID YOU?!" Considering this video has been following me in my recommended for a few days, no.

[@NegativeVitality]

Great video

[@aozorahaou2643]

I miss this era of Sonic storytelling and I really dislike the fact people call it the Dark Ages it should be called the Heroes Era as Sonic and friends go on heroic adventures. Yeah there are games in that era with issues, but the stories were enjoyable especially with Dark Brotherhood and characters like Shade (screw you Ken Penders for ruining that characters chance to be a reoccurring addition to the cast as the stories to tell with her and Knuckles given their Echinda Tribe heritage had potential )

[@con_jer]

People don't like the talking in stages? Sure the repeat dialog can get kind of annoying but the characterization and story were my favorite part of the game. Like I find the controls to wroung in away I can't quite explain to really enjoy playing the gameplay a whole lot but the characters and there dynamic we're so charming it didn't even bother me that much playing through it