Sonic's Loop Problem

[@SplashDash_]

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[@spongebobmaster]

SpongeBob SquarePants: The Spongy Construction Project is a fan-made online multiplayer video game based on the SpongeBob SquarePants franchise

[@NileFive]

how tf did you get sponsored by sony 😭

[@DatDrawingKid011]

Um actually Apple Arcade does have its own controller you can connect to your phone or other apple devices so you can play Sonic dream team with a controller 🤓

[@Inactivechannel-r6]

@@spongebobmasterno its not!

[@blimbam]

good job a sponsor that i actually somewhat want. thanks for not geting sponsored by raid

[@sirprower]

The loops in the classic games were obstacles, but in the modern games theyre just spectacle

[@Sonicmid]

Ngl he spitting

[@ALegendaryBlueHedge]

Bars

[@Qoobon_]

Maybe not in chemical plant

[@yoshihammerbro435]

Wow, a thing that requires me to press down and a to pass. Such a challenge.

[@rynobehnke8289]

its like people forgot that every 2d Sonic game with loops ended up making them just spectacle anyway thanks to the spindash or boost. (or in case of the DS games both)

[@jackhumphries1087]

I think a good middle ground would be taking the sonic speed simulator approach of having control while going through a loop, but having you be somewhat magnetized to the Center of the path, making it interactive while still making sure that little Timmy doesn’t go flying off into the abyss

[@CHICKENRAN34]

Perfectly said 🤣

[@Gogs-mf8do]

I was surprised they weren't mentioned in the video, but the only problem I have with them is that some have the path starting way too early, making so if the player tries to jump out of them they will just fuck up the loop and stay stuck in the loop now stopped instead of just jumping through them, or some rare cases like the loop of the City escape race where no one uses it due to how unrelaible it is using it, 80% of the time you will just go to the top and fall. But in general, yeah I do like them a lot! (Please someone make stop playing that dam game, it's been almost 2 years now!)

[@peacefulskies9320]

Yeah, TheGreenDeveloper made basically the entire fundamental code for that game, shame he got laid off the way he did.

[@PapiTheMenace]

good example, but i think a better one would be "Sonic Encore" which completely takes away any magnetization and is all based on the players input

[@AK46supr]

Tea frontiers implemented this & works like a perfect charm

[@derpyfailz572]

In the original Sonic the Hedgehog games loops were a huge technical achievement. They had never been seen in a platform before and were a crucial part of building momentum. Today they’re mostly included because they’re synonymous with the brand.

[@assassin8636]

Um that's always been that way since the first game so it doesn't matter if it's a brand

[@seematahir5970]

Something that's a real shame about Unleashed is that the game DOES actually have the physics to facilitate running on loops and walls without any automation, but the game rarely takes advantage of it.

[@robomike276]

This applies to SA1, SA2, and Gens too! It's like they forgot they added scripting everywhere because it was limitation of the time and now think it's what everyone loves about the games.

[@marvelfannumber1]

@@robomike276 If you've ever played the test level for SA1 you'll realize why they did this. Sure, Sonic can make it through the loop on his own *some* of the time, but it's so glitchy and unpredictable that half the time you either don't run across it, or you fling yourself into the air. It's clear from the test level that they initially wanted SA1 to be more physics based like the classics. But either they didn't have enough time, or the engine was just too buggy, so they took the easy option. Then Sonic Team continued with the easy way and never looked back since, even though it isn't 1998 anymore and this should be possible to do well in 3D

[@TheSultan1470]

​@@marvelfannumber1 Except not really, no

[@HyenaFox]

Sonic Unleashed is imo the best Sonic has ever handled in 3D. He's fast, responsive, fluid, and he responds realistically to the terrain and physics in a way that hasn't been replicated in any Sonic game sense. The only thing that feels noticeably off is that the drift (especially while boosting) feels like it either doesn't have a strong enough turning force or doesn't have a short enough turning radius for the angle of the turns the game clearly intends you to use drift to take. Almost like someone added a 0 somewhere in the code for how the drift is supposed to behave. They fixed it in generations, but they also slowed him down significantly compared to Unleashed and added a speed cap for 2D sections, something that I believe was in certain 2D sections of Unleashed but it was rare and nowhere near as low. Generations was the beginning of Sonic Team no longer treating speed as a significant core gameplay tenant- it was the beginning of Sonic Team TRYING to slow Sonic down wherever possible.

[@Starpotion]

Frontiers has the exact same issue where loops are possible within the game's physics, they just didnt add any for some reason

[@DesignDoc]

Wish they would actually let you control Sonic while in a loop. The Spark series as well as several fan games like Sonic GT make manually running through loops exciting because you can feel the physics at work as you run through with speed slowing down as you work to the top and then all of the speed rushing back as you descend. If you're speed running you generally skip em if possible but it just feels good to do casually. Sure you don't get the camera spectacle but I don't think we really need it anymore.

[@A_Person_64]

I always wanted to see a loop where the 2nd part of it is raised so you can't just jump to the other side (I remember realizing I could do this as an 8 year old playing Sonic Heroes - Grand Metropolis) in addition to not having the physics, control or camera taken away from you.

[@Excelsior1937]

@@A_Person_64Yeah I was thinking that “Shouldn’t loops act like ‘Speed gates’ to an extent?” Where you have to have a certain amount of momentum to get through them unless you can get past it in some other way through skilled gameplay. I think making the exit point higher up than the entry point is the only real way you can make the loop a functional speed gate in 3D the way they are in the classic games

[@markandrew287]

Also regarding spectacle, keeping the pace up and running through the practically open world of Spark and many Sonic games ARE the spectacle. The loop provides a little time to breath before you're thrust into the action again and it's damn satisfying because you know how fast you're going

[@phiphi2209]

I was hoping someone would bring up the spark games, because the games don’t feature “dynamic” camera angles and always stay fixated behind the characters you get to truly feel the loop as you lose a bit of speed running up them before BURSTING DOWN THEM, stages like Floria highway and planetary stripe showcase these perfectly or the loops on grind rails in historia hysteria which are always so much fun

[@dylanobrien3785]

I think an interesting approach to 3D loops would be to have *_two types of loops._* A big, traditional _spectacle_ loop, and a _breathing_ loop. For this new breathable loop, the difference is with the camera. Instead of having the camera follow Sonic, the camera will hang in the middle of the loop and stay looking forward to show you what's coming next. Sonic runs up off the top of the screen, completes the loop offscreen, and then comes shooting out from behind the camera and the camera latches back on. These new loops would give the player a moment to breathe, would let spectacle loops feel rarer and more special, these would let the player plan ahead for the next obstacle, and they would give a big sense of speed once Sonic returns onscreen.

[@TheJPooka777]

Splash Dash can really find any random ass Sonic topic and make it interesting

[@kaxcommentssomethingREAL]

you should take a peep at OreoGod lol

[@SuperSonic68]

I've actually done a lot of research on the subject. Loops can be an obstacle for a new player, but a tool for gaining speed for an experienced player, by running up it and rolling down it. And, in regards to fangames like GT, that philosophy works great in 3d.

[@retrorebootmusic]

That's already a fun speed boost, but have you tried jumping from around the upper left of the loop? Sonic slams into the bottom slope of the loop and builds SO much speed.

[@sikosonix901]

@@retrorebootmusic I thought that only worked in 2D, guess it's time to boot up GT after 3 years.

[@retrorebootmusic]

@@sikosonix901 I was specifically talking about 2d, I... apparently didn't read the whole comment

[@sikosonix901]

@@retrorebootmusic nah u good Bro, and I can confirm that it works in both GT and project hero. But with GT you have to make sure you immediately roll to maintain the speed.

[@OffAirProductions]

The last time I can remember loops in 3D Sonic having any kind of mechanical depth was Unleashed. If you see a ring of rings within a loop that's just out of reach, you're meant to be going at a fast enough speed to perform a Nights Into Dreams "paraloop". I'm pretty sure less than 10% of everyone who played Unleashed even knows that's a thing.

[@atake176]

Interesting enough, Sonic Frontiers can do 3D loops without automation. I remember seeing someone porting Dragon Road from Unleashed into Frontiers. And there was a loop. And Sonic, surprisingly, easily managed to run through it. So Sonic Team can do 3D loops. And if I'm not mistaken, in the Final Horizons update for Sonic Frontiers, in cyberspace, there's loops that work similarly to how you described them at 8:00

[@AK46supr]

For that frontiers part- yes they have

[@vixtheexistent6390]

Yeah final horizon gets really experimental with quite a few things. Loops are kinda a pretty good example actually, as theres some where the camera rotates with sonic, some are a transition into running down a wall dodging stuff, theres even one where it’s not fully automated until your about halfway through the loop.

[@diegomedina9637]

They could do it since SA1... And if you played SA1 you'll know why they choose to automate then ever since (Most specifically the DX release)

[@atake176]

@@diegomedina9637 Sonic Adventure is very janky when it comes to loops, I tried to play few levels with all automation removed. They all become very annoying/impossible to complete, because the loops were designed with "spectacle" in mind. So this applies to both Dreamcast and DX versions

[@ClassicBentobox]

Something I feel you left out or maybe didn’t know is that in 2d Sonic you can time a jump in the middle of the loop, and if you hit the bottom angle right you’ll immediately hit full speed. Even for less casual players they represent an engaging obstacle and element.

[@solgaladeus9273]

YES! This is what made those loops so great! You can really gain real momentum with that loop trick and achieve speeds so fast the camera can’t catch up to sonic

[@Joshi_ForReal]

And to think that this issue could be solved by making the loops bababooey shaped 😞

[@nathansos8480]

what?

[@demetriusnp49]

There’s more than one style of Loop. Spiral, Corkscrew, Figure 8, Lancher, etc. 2D Sonic was full of those, bring them back into the 3D space and experiment the physics with them to make em just as good. Or heck, have Sonic create his own loop as a means of traversal through the environment.

[@Takato]

The issue with doing that, my friend, is that it would take time to test and tweak the physics engine for it to be both satisfactory and functional. And SEGA doesn't allow Sonic Team to have time.

[@lesterwilliamsjr649]

It really feels forced how Sonic Prime makes it seem like the loop was such a sentimental symbol.

[@TheSultan1470]

You could say that about a lot of things Sonic

[@RogersPS5]

Imagine having to construct all these loops irl,seems like a nightmare to do

[@CaptainCat101]

When i first played the Sonic games as a kid, the loops were my favorite parts. They were so satisfying. Nowadays, they can be fun, but aren't as exciting anymore

[@LoliconSamalik]

Hell, it's even become a basic speedrun strat to run through the loop instead of riding it in 3D sonic games. Want a slightly faster time? Don't go through the loop, skip the cycle any way you can.

[@sikosonix901]

Bruh you grew up. Going through loops over and over are obviously gonna get more boing as time passes.

[@anga156u1]

Over the years, it seems that Sonic Team came up with what to do with the loops which I was hoping you would point out. Levels are being divided in sections, usually the 3D area and then 2D area, but also other areas more focused on gimmicks. With this, Sonic Team has used loops to connect these sections, it's spectacle but also a moment to breath, it subtly let you know that the next section is going to change the pace. Some major examples: -Sonic Forces' Sunset Heights has the loop (the one you showed), you reach it playing the 3D section of the level and after passing the loop, the camera adjusts to set the 2D section of the level. -Sonic Generations' Seaside Hill is the best use of this formula, the first loop of the level translate you from the 3D area to the 2D section, the 3-way loops also translate you from the regular 3D area to an area of your choice that its either a 3D area with thigh platforming or a car racing section, the rail loops at the top path prepare you to go from the 3D area to the running on the wall. This is usually how Sonic Team have handled the loops, they are pace divers, they give you a moment to breath and prepare yourself from the next challenge, I personally really like this from speed running because it those long or hard levels to speed run, those loops give me a moment to rest and prepare myself to what come next.

[@cullbear55]

Loops in the classic games were amazing. Because if you jumped at just the right time going up or down them, you could immediately go even faster thanks to the physics engine and sloped corners.

[@ReSetAMV]

I think the DLC Cyberspace levels in Frontiers are a good middle ground between spectacle and practical loops. I may be misremembering, but I swear the loops in those levels were more momentum based than in any 3D Sonic game before or since. I don't recall there being dash panels before them, and I remember leaving them faster than I entered them.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

They didn’t have Dash Panels but they were still automated, basically what he recommended they do where you have to get about a Quarter way through the loops and then it takes control.

[@ReSetAMV]

@Terminal_Apotos Yeah, I think it was something like that. I certainly remember my momentum dropping some before I reached the apexes of those loops.

[@mredbadger]

Green Hill Act 1 has a moment that’s intentionally designed to teach you about rolling, with the narrow tunnel forcing you into a ball and and ending with you flying off the ramp into the sky and hitting enemies. The game efficiently demonstrates the benefit of rolling. That you get faster, can take shortcuts and can’t be hurt by enemies But Sega have reused that moment so many times as a scripted sequence that just ‘looks cool’ that people don’t even register what it’s supposed to be in S1. And cause the meaning is so diluted, ppl don’t even know that rolling is the core mechanic. Hence all the video essays where ppl say the game is bad cause they keep running into shit

[@Yuti640]

I remember watching a video that said that loops in the 3d games are a great way to have a break from the gameplay action while still having the content be visually engaging, and i tend to agree with that, i feel that the main problem arises with the fact that everything surrounding the loops *isnt* very engaging so the loops feel less like a breather and more like just another basic cut and paste piece of content (I made this comment before watching the video)

[@SporianSummit]

nice to see LS mark explore new avenues of content, mad respect

[@PlXOLL]

this is NOT LS MARK this is SPLASHDASH duhhh 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

[@SporianSummit]

@@PlXOLL actually is dolan Much regards

[@PlXOLL]

@@SporianSummit no is actually elon musk

[@meta13gaming]

Bro the new cyberspace levels in the Final Horizon is the first instance of Sonic going through a loop in 3D for the first time ever

[@nothingrhymeswithorange5294]

There isn't really a way to get loops in 3D to be anything more than spectacle is there? It works in 2D (when there isn't a boost pad in front of it) to naturally build up speed. But when it's applied to 3D, with changing camera angles and such, it doesn't really work unless it's automated

[@bowserbreaker2515]

I prefer the "Spectacle Loop." Part of Sonic's identity are cool set pieces.

[@ironicallyuncreative]

Final Horizon Cyberspace levels gave us manual loops

[@pass_]

all these years playing sonic and i never reallu thought about the loops in years lmao

[@lazymorris5293]

I’m glad you went over this topic, loops were my favorite part in the classic Sonic games but nowadays I don’t really feel anything while going through them.

[@legdig]

Spark the electric jester is all practical loops and I adore it for that.

[@bubbles46853-ep9if]

I always have a soft spot for the spectacle loop at the very beginning of Palmtree Panic. That was the first Sonic setpiece I ever played.

[@HyenaFox]

Are loops really an obstacle? The classic games give you a spindash, which, except in I think literally one instance in all of Sonic 1, 2, and 3, is more than enough speed to make it through the loop. I think acting like loops are a big challenge that have to be dumbed down in 3D with automation is a bit insulting, no? Especially in the boost games where the level ASSUMES you have the gameplay talent to keep up your max speed at all times, rather than that being an optional extra. The classic games allow you to beat them without ever spin dashing once and taking the low, slow, Mario esque platforming paths all the way through. Generations and Unleashed both basically want you to demonstrate with your reaction time the ability to not let go of the boost button and maintain your speed the whole way through.

[@malachiallen1517]

Be honest, we all jumped once we reached the left and bottom left corner of the loop to pick up some speed. I ALWAYS do that in any 2D Sonic game, 3D Sonic is just holding right or holding Y to go fast. Though I do enjoy the Boost formula because of the magical feeling of the effects that make you truly feel like you are Sonic, I find it more fun to jump to the left and/or bottom left corner of a loop after doing a Spin Dash just to run fast independently with skill and no Dash Pannels or what not (the same can't be said for Sonic Forces because the programmers ripped out Classic Sonic's speed and called it a day and that the only way to go fast, from experience and based on what I did, is to Spin Dash).

[@DanielKariuki-er5gi]

0:21 I remember when i was in elementary school I LOVED loop-de-loops but even though I'm never going to be fast enough to run a loop the loop and not fall from the top I will still enjoy cartoons running or driving on loop-the-loops.

[@guacamolen]

Frontiers solution was to make it so you had to press a trigger to stay on the sloping floor. I think it’s a nice middle ground, though it can lead to some Sonic '06 jank.

[@angrycheeto6464]

Rank the loops based on difficulty. Have lower difficulty automate. Middle difficulty automate the harder ones, and hard difficultt letting you fend for yourself.

[@Endaiyada]

The new cyberspace stages in frontiers update 3 have loops where you control how you move so i think those can work

[@MyStellarSpace]

Unless the loop rewards you with some speed or at least rings, I just try to skip them by jumping through the gap to the other end in the 3D games, really cuts down those seconds so I can carry on forward

[@Scott...]

Why are there so many 2D segments in modern games, yet most of them STILL have automated loops? I thought the Z axis was the whole problem?

[@TheSultan1470]

Because a 2D loop is automated by default.

[@AccelerateHedge]

0:24 Levitated Ruin, Skeleton Dome, Night Palace, and Dragon's Lair: *Are we a joke to you?*

[@mauriceisaac3646]

Night Palace also had corkscrews in some of its missions.

[@AccelerateHedge]

@@mauriceisaac3646 That too. EDIT: And Skeleton Dome had that loop shortcut.

[@taekwonjoe1996]

I'd like it if a stage had multiloops where the camera is placed behind Sonic and gave you the sidestep mechanic to avoid obstacles and enemies. To avoid motion sickness, it would obviously need to be designed like the inside of a hex nut. Then, at the very least, there would be a reason for their existence.

[@cyldavor991]

here's a fun idea, sonic gets trapped in a mobius strip and builds up infinite speed, then breaks out of the loop and it leads to an area called infinite speed zone.

[@banobobot]

Sonic Speed Simulator got it right. In fact, the idea you propose in 7:58 is fairly similar to that: after running past a certain part of the loop, the game would lock the player into the center of the path as long as you keep running, allowing the player to make going through a loop both swift and easy.

[@ATomatoIsAFruit]

I just look at other games, namely racing games, which do include loops and loop physics with little automation. Your Trackmanias, Distance, Rush, Hot Wheels and so on. They have guard rails and barriers on the sides, preventing you from completely veering off-course, but you still need to have some amount of speed to get through them. The camera also usually stays focused on your vehicle, so the pure visual spectacle aspect is downplayed for the mechanical spectacle (ie. fast in, fast out). I sincerely refuse to believe it's that difficult to design a fully freeform and interactive loop in Sonic games, when there's clear evidence of games that are just as, if not *faster* in gameplay, doing it for far longer and with generally greater success.

[@_bc_why_not]

They should implement a gimmick into the loops, where the camera locks onto a good view of the entire loop, there aren’t any dash panels, and we are forced to mash a button to give Sonic enough energy to pass the loop. Idk

[@justcallmezero.]

I just realized that my favorite 3D Sonic game actually has a severe lack of loops. That game being Sonic Robo Blast 2.

[@koolcu1l]

Loops in sonic speed simulator are lowkey the best 3d loops

[@crabcakeenthusiast692]

In 3d boost games, I'd say when you reach the front of a loop, it enters a quick time event, and if you do it correctly, you go through the loop and gain speed, if you fail, you go through it but don't gain speed.

[@samuelpierce2.088]

For Boost-style Sonic games in particular, I think the best approach to handling loops is to convert them into bite-sized Sonic Dash-style obstacle course; Ones where you’re lightly magnetized to the loop’s surface, but have to continually avoid hitting obstacles spread across multiple “lanes” to ensure you don’t lose speed and fall off the loop. The reason I think this approach would work best for Boost-style Sonic games is because it would strike a good balance between being a fun bit of spectacle for the player to indulge in, and being a legitimate challenge that can have its difficulty gradually ramped up as the player progresses through the stages. For example, starting out in…say…Green Hill, these loops would be relatively small and possess only a handful of enemies and obstacles to help the player get their bearings. But by the time the player gets to Dr. Eggman’s newest operating base, these loops could not only be massive in size, and contain tons of obstacles and enemies to dodge, but could also lead the player onto wildly varying paths through the levels, with some transitioning into other types of obstacle courses like pipes, corkscrews, etc. And best of all…these loops could be made of modular bits of geometry, which would let the devs run wild experimenting with other kinds of spectacle, such as having rivers of lava cascade through holes , chunks of geometry break apart and fall away from the main loop structure, etc.

[@kaobunn]

im curious on what your thoughts were on the final horizon cyberspace loops i think they almost stroke a balance between spectacle and practicality in those because yes there are dash panels but youre also encouraged to make your way through the loop on your own

[@biggy-pi]

surprised this wasnt mentioned, but you can jump around the top left area of a loop to gain a ton of speed, it is pretty difficult to pull off though, you might just end up losing speed instead but when you do manage to do it, it feels better than drinking water after being really thirsty

[@markandrew287]

If Spark The Electric Jester can have us run through loops freely, then I don't see why Sonic can't.

[@ドラゴンリュー-f1x]

I feel like loops in the past were as iconic as Mario's pipes, but lately I feel like they've become just something that moves automatically.

[@GUNS_jk]

There are loops in Dino Jungle and Molten Mine. Thus making Secret Rings and Black Knight legitimate Sonic games.

[@CrimsonMoonM]

Honestly, I remember being absolutely mesmerized after seeing Sonic go through a loop for the first time as a kid. It didn't matter to me that spindashing in front of a loop essentially made them play themselves in the post-Sonic 1 2D games since it just looked so cool. Stopping to spindash is at least less optimal than just letting your forward momentum carry you through, so there is at least some incentive to treat 'em like Sonic 1's loops, but the automated loops of the 3D era or the trend of putting speed boosters right before one in the later 2D entries kind of stinks. I understand that you need some degree of automation to keep the player from rocketing to their doom in 3D space, especially since adding rails won't always stop a player from falling off the stage if they lose speed halfway up the loop, but it still feels kind of gross.

[@thegoldenblob69]

You're like Chills, but if he was a pure-blooded Canadian.

[@Omnicide187]

He's LS Mark

[@plentyofpaper]

I've seen some additional use for the loops beyond the acceleration purpose of early games, and the cinematic use of later games. The boost era often uses them the transition point between 2D and 3D gameplay. They take control away from the player for a couple of seconds, but this means the player has time to adapt to the new playstyle instead of scrambling to change from moving forward to moving right. You can see this with a pseudo-loop at 8:17. A 270 degree loop can be used to nicely transition from horizontal to vertical. 3:47 is a pretty good example (although it then changed again to horizontal.) And kind of interestingly, when I was trying to get good times in Sonic Forces, I found myself bypassing the loops to save time by just jumping from the start of the loop to the end of it without gaining substantial height. So they're actually kind of an obstacle here.

[@Laekith]

The only video about this that I completely agree with. But you probably haven't played Final Horizon's Cyber Space levels where they do manual loops and they work perfectly.

[@TrainRstudios]

What is funny is the touch controls in dream team is so good

[@DanielKariuki-er5gi]

I can't believe the Sonic movies haven't had loops yet and even though they had really well in the first movie for a few seconds with baby Sonic and Longclaw I wish we had more of that and also more Sonic levels.

[@dominicjannazo7144]

Mom, can I have open space in the middle of this level? To add gameplay? Yes [Actually adds LOOPS like a boss]

[@TylerMcNamer]

The loops gave identity. Part of that identity is making Sonic go faster when he's curled up into a ball.

[@michaeloverton04]

I think that one of Sonic's most fun features is the spectacle of moving BLAZINGLY fast, and the loop, in the classic games at least, made that spectacle all the better. Curling into a ball at the right moment made it all the better.

[@wesshiflet2214]

according to Sonic Retro, there are *no* loops in _Knuckles’ Chaotix_

[@evilbritishguy3581]

Remember that scene from the Simpson's Movie where Homer needs to ride a motorcycle around, inside the ball of death. At first, he falls because Homer fails to maintain his speed. Lisa advises him "When you get to the top, don't slow down - speed up". Even though the top is when it's the scariest for Homer, he manages to win the truck, having completed the loop. What I think we can learn from this is that running through loop-de-loops would be more impressive if they were more dangerous. Perhaps the loops in Green Hill Zone could be just as fragile as the overhanging platforms that crumble when Sonic stands on them. That is, as Sonic runs through a loop, it could also crumble. Or maybe, Badniks could be waiting at the top of the loop-de-loop, knowing how much Sonic loves the run through them and show off. Of course, if Sonic has enough speed, he can simply spindash through them. Or maybe, Sonic finds himself being chased by a speedy Badnik and the only way to lose it is to build and maintain enough speed to complete an especially big loop-de-loop. Perhaps, Dr Eggmain builds loop-de-loops that actually turn out to be giant hamster wheels that trap Sonic. However, when Sonic finds a way to keep building more and more speed, this breaks the Hamster Wheel off it's axel and it goes flying like a runaway tire before Sonic is finally free.

[@garrtoons4303]

The loops are pretty much just there because.... they are. 😅

[@DisKorruptd]

Just starting the video, I'm noticing how the later games go to the spectacle camera angle, spinning the screen around... the earlier ones can instead use the loops as a brief pause in order to highlight this specific screen and go "okay, now you can look at what's going on here." If Sonic ever got a Mario Maker equivalent, I could see the loops being used as "look at this" points like they use in Troll levels for "here's the thing you want or don't want"

[@pointwoods]

Personally, I'm a big fan of sonic utopia's loops. They're fairly challenging to complete, but reward the player with a huge burst of speed, along with the satisfaction and spectacle of having completed the loop. The key to this style of loop is that they are all optional, it's only something the player will do if they really want to. That said, I do think they could be just a little bit wider to compensate for the 3D controls.

[@1st_treekuworshipper]

I love jumping in the middle of a loop and getting a speed boost⏩

[@kbxthegamemaster06]

"is this FUN?" *yes* 🗿

[@Scruptt]

Only Sonic fans could make a video about a stage gimmick

[@ataladin87]

Pretty sure Sceret rings had loops especially in Levitated ruins. Its just.....upside down.

[@embani]

I'm kind of paraphrasing an old Sonic dissected video here but the problem with categorizing loops as simple "spectacle" in the 3D games is that it isn't spectacle, it's routine. There's nothing spectacular about a loop in a Sonic game.

[@DeadwingDork]

One of my favorite Sonic games is the fan game Robo Blast 2, which has no loops whatsoever because the Doom engine is super old and can't do it properly (there are mods for it, but they're janky). And the levels still feel more like classic 2D Sonic than a large number of actual official 3D Sonic games, because the Sonic Feeling is achieved through other means.

[@God-xd1wr]

The simple answer is to make the camera tilt and follow you when you’re running at more extreme angles. Sonic Utopia and Sonic Calamity does this.

[@afroarts6047]

Maybe what sonic team could do is put invisible walls on the sides so you can’t fall off of the sides but you still need enough speed to go through the loop just like the 2d games otherwise you’ll fall back down. It’s a bit of both of the previous 3d and 2d s as styles

[@mechajay3358]

There needs to be a balance with the Looptiy Loops with the 3D Sonic Games.

[@Pinkanator]

For the record? No. No Chaotix does not feature a single loop in its level design. The very buggy code for it does exist, but it goes completely unused.

[@phorchybug3286]

I got a cool idea for a loop: Remove the roof to make a unique momentum jumping challenge.

[@jamesbanana007]

To be fair... Would you really want sonic team in charge of putting a man on the moon?

[@Xxx-pk3vi]

One thing I think you could have touched upon was the speedrunning tricks you can do with the loops. SA2 especially had a lot of these where if you used half the loop and jumped, you could get massive shortcut. Outside of the Sonic Adventure games and Heroes, I think it's something that can be more incorporated again. Other than that, really good video on an often overlooked topic!

[@TrustNx7]

I'm not sure how often this comes up but, bro you sound just like LSMark lol

[@CyberpunkPizza]

I really think the solution is just to move the camera along with Sonic, like in Sonic Utopia. Make it feel like taking a loop in real life. People complain about "vomit cam" but there's no reason automated loops can't be an accessibility option.

[@msgameandcake628]

Thinking about the Ice Cap loops that help convert horizontal speed into vertical, downward speed in an instant. Then thinking about Sonic frontiers, where the magnet shoes physics of the game can often result in trying to run off of a cliff and launch into the distance, but then suddenly finding yourself sticking to the ground and running down a wall. And Ice Cap loop conversion could allow for a lowered intensity of the magnet shoes effect, if someone wants to run down the wall, they can take the loop to convert into a downward wallrun. With this option available, if the player runs off the side of the cliff, the developer can be sure the player wants the horizontal movement into the distance, and thus won't magnetize the player to the wall.

[@justsomerandomguy7539]

Next video he’s gonna complain about sonics shoes

[@RMarr-uy9hf]

I spent a lot of time thinking about that problem in 3d sonics, I have a few ideas to solve it. All I have are some drawing on a notebook for now but hopefully I'd find time to make a playable proof of concept at some point :)

[@Looneytunesfan08]

Sonic fans trying to not nit pick everything ever (impossible):

[@beefstew5168]

My favorite loops are like the one at the end of Wave Ocean's mach speed section, a corkscrew where you dont feel halted, Sonic's still zooming forward just upside down now, and that is way past cool

[@kaxcommentssomethingREAL]

i think it's strange to say... but i have never felt such a negative feeling about them, but they become less fun when you don't get proper momentum to have a reason to go through them, why go through them? you're going fast, and you get rewarded with MORE speed as you come down, take Generations for example, the loops in that game are fun... but you don't really think much about it, classic Sonic is there, but since you don't have the accurate physics of the older games, the momentum you get doesn't feel as rewarding (oh yeah you also got the absolute busted spindash). and for modern Sonic, it's kinda the same thing, but they're only there for spectacle, you get a dopamine rush for going through them, but it's nothing more than that. tldr; loops in Sonic games aren't as fun as they used to be, depending on what you feel, they're mostly fine, or they have nothing to offer. apologies if something here doesn't seem so coherent

[@ZechOfTheWest]

I think a loops in 3D could be used as a level transition, rather than a spectacle moment.

[@amiiinafedora2318]

It's called a Corkscrew. Edit: But yeah, I get your point. Also, Frontiers had loops in cyberspace I'm pretty sure.

[@ThaShikushi]

Since it's hard to go through loops without automation in 3D, the loops could be turned into "skill checks" that affect where you end up in the levels. For example, have it so that if the player can't clear the loop (by having enough speed and maintaining control), it crumbles and leads the player down the "lower path" which is less skill intensive but slower than the "higher paths". This would fit in with prior Sonic level design and turn the loops into an obstacle to clear again.

[@charliekahn4205]

Or just stop you dead in your tracks like the 2D games

[@KaleBennett]

I feel like ever since Sonic 2 with the spin dash, Sonic games haven't been about earning speed so much as maintaining and utilizing it, so loops have rarely ever been more than spectacle to me. I think in order to make loops a fulfilling gameplay mechanic again like in Sonic 1, there should be some kind of interactable gimmick applied to them, like in Heroes where you can pick which of the three loops to go down. Maybe you could break the loop by going too fast through it so you're launched to a different area, or you could run up a big loop but stop running at the tallest point to fall down into a different path exposed by the sweeping camera. Without something to accomplish beyond just getting past the loop, I think it will always feel like just a setpiece, regardless of if it's automated.

[@snakey888]

Thing is, even in a game like Sonic 2 where you have access to the spindash, you can still interact with loops to possibly gain more speed, at the risk of losing speed. Also, the way the spindash originally functioned, you still needed to earn speed as even a fully revved up spnidash would not put you at full speed.

[@osc-omb47896]

So Sonic 1 is the only game pandering to casual speedrunning 💀

[@snakey888]

@@osc-omb47896 What?

[@renderpeach]

Have you played the Sonic P-06 demo stage thingy…? There’s a huge loop in that stage that you have to run through manually…..

[@arthurlopes5408]

Spark the eletric jester 3 nailed those things

[@leow.2162]

Never played it but it seems like more of an issue of side scrolling vs over the shoulder camera than 2d vs 3d (which seems to correspond to 2d and 3d). Like, for the loop to work you have to be able to get through it by holding a button and not having to navigate.. I think the main step for a solution for a good over-the-shoulder loop would be to keep the camera behind sonic, so it feels less like a cutscene and you can easily have sonic stay in the loop by holding a button or pushing a stick. You can even add obstacles, holes, enemies, etc into the loop like that. If you want to add spectacle, either make the loop more narrow, have the camera zoom out a bit and tilt it up a bit, so the player can see more of the world around sonic go upaide down during the loop. Bonus points: make the speed you need to get through a loop a bit higher, so it's at least a bit of an obstacle, and you get to see sonic fall or stumble if you're too slow.

[@diskpoppy]

one thing that dash pads do besides the speed, is to lock on sonic in particular direction.. so loops in 3d sonic, once sonic has appropriate speed, should simply constrain him from drifting off towards the sides (it doesn't even have to be a hard constrain, just make him feel more weighty, "resisting"). dash pads before loops are especially stupid, because loops themselves already kinda act like dash pads, but ones that slow you down or push you back when you don't have enough momentum beforehand

[@nightlydata2181]

Maybe a neat idea could be that loops could become a risk reward thing that make u go through parts of a level faster but wit the risk of careening off like in 06. The catch bein that it's part of a faster pathway u chose over the normal 1 which wouldn't either kill u or send u to a much slower path as punishment for failin

[@playbossthebest936]

I called it! Loops retrospective! Cool

[@GuidoLikesBread]

I'm the problem with loops