Sony’s 2 Sins Of Ergonomics

[@anthonyc1883]

I'm actually pretty devastated with my decision to buy an A7III, 16-35 2.8 and a grip without renting them first. The knuckle issue is totally real and I feel it just with casual use. I haven't even used the gear on a day-long event or a sports shoot. It's going to be awful if I do. 70-200 2.8 was going to be my next purchase but looking at photos online I'll bet the same problem exists. I was absolutely smitten with the idea of the Sony eye-AF following a person all around the screen. As a DSLR user (Nikon) I was just so ready to ditch the focus/recompose and focus/recompose routine. Anyway, my two cents.

[@MarceloTezza]

Nailed it again, same to me, the grip and menus.

[@GABRIEL_CRAFT]

Seriously Sony, if you want more of us to #bealpha you need to listen to this feedback. #sony

[@paulchoate1]

Thank you for the video. I have the A7III...from day one I complained about the ergonomics as I also have a Canon DSLR with great ergonomics. I did add a Meinke grip (same as the Sony) which helped tremendously but did nothing for that tight area between the lens and my knuckle. That area is tight but doable...any closer and I'd be rubbing skin off my knuckle! Overall I like the Sony but do find myself liking my 6Dii more even though the Sony is a considered by most to be a superior camera in almost every regard. There is just something so familiar, comfortable, simple, etc. about the Canon that has me reaching for it more than the Sony. Plus, there is no way I'm putting a huge G-Master lens on my Sony: it would just make the user experience no fun. The Canon however can handle larger lenses with ease. What you said about ergonomics & usability not mattering nearly as much as camera performance is true for professionals but not for hobbyists (like me). That said, the Sony ergonomics are "good enough".

[@The22Healer]

Agreed. I had heard so much about the bad ergonomics. However, when I actually used a a7iii, it wasn't so bad. I would like buy a full-size battery grip for it. Personally I did not mind the menu system that much, I acknowledge it could be better but I liked the options provided. Using it was a good experience in terms of functionality and ease.

[@mountainhobo]

Preach, brother! Cameras, cars, whatever you touch these days, ergonomics are a forgotten science, and reviewers don't care. Glad there is one that breaks the mold.

[@MMaven]

There are a lot of reviewers out there and I don’t want to be like most of them 😂🙌🏻

[@DonSaeKang]

That is so true about the Sony Ergonomic! But it is so much better than previous models. Also, Im not complaining because 75% of the time I’m shooting video on my a7iii and the camera is usually on a gimbal or monopod or tripod. With that said, the Panasonic GH5 and GH5s has the best ergonomic in my opinion.

[@TheCallie52809]

The user interface and ergonomics of Sony have always been an issue for me. I'd say the UI bothered me the most. So I decided to give the Nikon Z6 a try and I found it a real pleasure to use compared to Sony. There are pros and cons with Sony and Nikon but after using both, I'm sticking with Nikon. It feels more like a photographers camera.

[@davidtran-dinh1385]

All good points, I hope Sony is watching this. Even without touch input for the menus, the navigation could be improved by adding a few lines of code: 0) every tab has different pages, right? 1) need to use one of the wheels to jump from tab to other tabs 2) need to remember the exact page last opened for each tab and when we enter this tab again, it will go directly to that page 3) need to remember the exact item chosen on the page, and again, this must be selected by default Doing 1+2+3 is really easy to do and will already make navigation much faster than it is now. Of course they could also add touch and completely revamp the system, but my solution can be implemented and tested within a few hours of work and patched with a firmware update for all the a7 models. About the body concerns (grip + gap), I hope for the IV generation that they copy the Nikon design that you showed.

[@shawnshing614]

Yeah. U r right about that! Also Sony don’t even care about to make tilt & shift lens. As us like to shoot architecture and interior therefore we can’t! Again, Sony you made us so disappointing ! Thank you Shawn

[@minusinfinity6974]

There are Sony groupies out there asking for even smaller FF camera from Sony. Yes they want the A7R4 to be smaller. Button layout is pretty good on the Sony’s, but physical size of the camera just sucks. I have to use a grip on my A9 and A7RIII when using anything larger than my 24-70 f/2.8L II. EOS R feels so much nicer in the hand, even though it sucks as a camera.

[@stephenscharf6293]

I'm glad somebody made a video about this because it was the major issue I had when using an A9 with the 70-200/4. The gap between the grip and lens barrel was so narrow it, left deep red marks on my knuckles. Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your view proficiency of the camera is far more important that usability and ergonomics of a camera. If I can't get on with the usability and ergonomics of a camera (and I can't with Sony's current cameras), I'm not going to use it regardless of how proficient it is. A camera's got to make me want to pick it up and get out and shoot with it, and Sony's current offerings don't; I find them exasperating in use.

[@MMaven]

Stephen Scharf I’m ok disagreeing, there are many much more comfortable and easy to use cameras that I don’t believe you would choose for ergonomics only. Otherwise a Nikon d60 or canon 10D will make you happy 😃

[@MMaven]

But I definitely understand what you are saying. The d850 makes me want to shoot it feels so good!

[@stephenscharf6293]

@@MMaven Well, my X-H1 makes me pretty happy, actually! I see "proficiency" (which I presume to be a mix of functionality, y=f(x), features, or key quality attributes, all KPIs...) as a key factor that is involved in an _interaction_ between usability/ergonomics (ergonomics being a sub-function of usability).

[@stephenscharf6293]

@@MMaven The D850 is just a superb camera. The D850, like the D5, D4, Canon 1Dx MkII and 5DIV are just great professional tools that just get the job done. As a motorsports photojournalist, those are key attributes for me. Along with shutter life! 😜 I shot with Canon 1D-series for my motorsports work for 13 years, until I got the X-T2. The X-T2 was a game-changer for me.

[@BubuSnow93]

I hated the shutter button on the A7III that I've tried, felt too spongy, I wasn't confident whether I was focusing or shooting.

[@Spartacus1975]

Thank you Michael for the next great video 👍 I use Sony cameras since 2005, meanwhile I know the menu system, it's quite unlogical. But with "My menu" you can adapt it and also configure other buttons. I always say please rent a camera first to avoid disappointment, it's so important. I'm lucky, I have Japanese hands, so no real problems with my pinky. But I would also appreciate if this gap between the grip and the lens would be bigger (I use the A7R III). My biggest wish for Sony ergonomics would be the buttons. They became better but look at Nikon/Canon. They should be bigger and with illumination for Astrophotography. But please Sony don't make the bodies bigger (I use a Cosyspeed Camslinger Outdoor and with my 16-35 F 2.8 GM it fits inside but it's the maximum). The small bodies were my main reason for Sony (perfect for hiking/mountaineering) and yes with the big GM lenses it feels sometimes like a DSLR but I have also the possibility to use a smaller lens like a 55 F 1.8.

[@MMaven]

Great contribution! Thank you

[@sgeorgiev]

you can set up (as I did) the rotate wheel to change iso directly - without pushing it first.

[@spritual_enlightenment]

Gosh, you were the first person who has trouble with not enough gap besides me!!!

[@rich3419]

Thanks for the review. It's obvious that technologists are designing the Sony cameras and not photographers. Sony is great for checklists but terrible for enjoying the hobby and art of photography. Thanks again!

[@scb2scb2]

I agree with the 5mm extra. i guess the lens people outgrew the body people. But i do not agree with the pinky problem 100% people do care and many have added 'fixes'. I am not even sure sony should make it taller since i feel having optional grips make sense and they should support several and cheaper ones. I personally felt this from day one and asked smallrig to design a L-bracket that added 22mm extra to the body for people with big hands. This l-bracket smallrig 2122 has now been sold in the thousands so people care and can work around it. The 5mm extra for lens i think should just happen, the adding of the 20mm length i am not sure since hands wordwide range from 16cm to 22cm (tip to wrist) so you can't please everybody. Better 'extenders' and more support/story telling from sony about this should happen. The A7 can be small when needed (say with the 28mm or 55mm) and bigger if wanted (say with most GM lenses).

[@weezyg.5724]

Sony has a killer camera with bad bad ergonomics.

[@tebitan3780]

Luckily I don't own any GM lens, only regular G-lenses, and the Tamron 28-75. No problems there with size.

[@Samtagri]

Get a wrist strap like the peak design clutch. It will take a lot of the load off your fingers and will make this problem less of an issue I think. I have wrist straps on all four cameras I use and there is really no going back.

[@ThePandaPhotographer]

Thanks for the video MTM

[@johnsg8]

I wear large gloves and can not fit my hand in between the lens and grip. I think a lot of photographers have smaller hands. The A7R3 buttons and joystick felt like toys compared to the D850. I have shot the D850 for a good part of a 14hr day for tournaments with no ergo problems with the D850; the Sony had me asking for the end of the first game. I wonder which camera manufacturer spends the most on advertising? Were you in Sedona?

[@simply.matias]

I didn't notice the grip size issue on 7m3 (rather have smaller camera) but the gap should be little wider

[@thebadmanreturns]

Sorry guys, The Biggest Market for Sony Alpha is Asia, especially China, Japan etc Here in Asia we dont like big grips, since we dont have giant hands. Anyway, Sony Alpha E is a *compact pro system* Meanwhile Canikon is *fullsize pro system* Of course the ergonomics concept was different, in Sony Alpha World, Smaller size & Portability is everything, ...btw It helps to use a good handstrap, and feels confortable on my alpha. Also, there will be manymore grip accessories for Sony Alphas from 3rd party manufacturers, *so dont worry*

[@kuau714]

I’ve been shooting the A9 with the battery grip, the handling still sucks especially shooting the past week in Colorado at a Downhill skiing event. I had to wear gloves. The technology is incredible yet Sony still has a way to go. Unfortunately according to an interview with Sony execs they have no plans on building a bigger body. Take a look,on what Olympus is working on a pro,grade body

[@IanCassanova]

I have the same problem with my hand on the grip touching the lenses and being very tight & my hands are not that big. I have had Sony cameras in the past and sold them for this very reason, I would buy an A9 in a heart beat if this was resolved with a slightly bigger body to hopefully alleviate this problem. If I am paying this kind of money for a camera in needs to feel comfortable in my hands.

[@chrischan5168]

Ergonomics is such a subjective thing that I’m surprised camera manufacturers don’t make adjustable or replaceable grips. But yeah well spotted, it’s the shutter location that pushes your pinky off the bottom of the camera.

[@MrBazReviews]

Sony have odd designs for ILC's boxy body no went out in the 70's and early 80's no no! proper touch screen, "fully articulated LCD" even their A mount bodies have this. Deeper grip, slightly larger body. In short make it more SLR like

[@MMaven]

It feels like this is the approach that Canon and Nikon took - closer to DSLR grips on mirrorless bodies

[@shang-hsienyang1284]

I have the a99 and the a9, and the a9 is superior ergonomically. The grip of the a99 is too shallow and your fingernails are hitting the gap. The fully articulating screen of the a99 is also very awkward, and is nowhere close to the Fujifilm or Canon's implementation.

[@chirag4]

@@shang-hsienyang1284 thanks for this super-valuable info.

[@MrBazReviews]

@@shang-hsienyang1284 I just bought an A99 for a great price if the grip is like the A77 I will get on well with it. Plenty of space with the gap to lens mount. The swivel implementation on the SLT's is odd, but at least you can face it around to yourself or to the side, impossible on the current A7/A9 models which only allow up or down. The XT3 can't face you either and has a strange side flip. Canon probably have the best solution if you like side flip out screens. I don't doubt the features and quality of the newer Sony ILC's but they're not appealing to users such as myself who want a more SLR design - they can still keep it relatively compact ie mid size DSLR this allows more space to spread controls out, which is difficult on a small body.

[@MrBazReviews]

@@MMaven I think later on we will see Sony move to an SLR style which is the result of decades of development. I mention 70/80's design because that's what we had then smaller bodies/grips. With the large sizes on modern lenses (way bigger than any of my AF Minolta lenses) it doesn't make sense to have undersized bodies, least to me. Sure keep them compact ish.

[@PeterMKent]

@2:42 LOL, if that wasn't sarcasm it should be.

[@MMaven]

Hey now, what’s a mere $128 for a pinky rest??

[@andyfink4419]

It's not a biggie if it works better than the others. Unbeatable in its price range.

[@MMaven]

True!

[@1986radioful]

Left, right, up, down. Navigation of menus fixed!

[@shadda]

Can we talk about Nikon's ridiculous flip-down screen?

[@jakubtravnik2286]

I have switched from D750 to A7III 6 months ago. The menus are acceptable when you learn them, not great though. But difference in grip is big (A7III has mediocre grip, D750 has excellent one). I don't mind the small gap between the lens and grip with lenses I have (but I have tried fatter lenses and I could see problem). I don't mind grip height, because that is solvable problem with grip extension (I have Meike MK-X1EM which works great for me), though Nikon's solution of higher top of grip is better. But I mind shape. Shape feels wrong. I prefer grips where I do not have to apply force using thumb to hold camera securely. I can hold D750 on one finger (in portrait orientation). I cannot hold A7III on three fingers that fit on grip without using thumb, it would just slide off. See difference here: i.imgur.com/UAxABIm.png To improve this, the grip also needs to be farther from mount as well. Both EOS R and Z7/6 which I held in my hand were better than A7III. See my deep comparison of A7III and D750 here: jtra.cz/stuff/review/from-nikon-d750-to-sony-a7iii/en.html

[@harryharaan]

People have started noticing all these stuff only after the release of Z series and R series, before that they were all happy with the tech Sony offered.

[@MMaven]

That’s because we didn’t have a choice! Lol

[@harryharaan]

@@MMaven Ultimate truth 😀

[@zapfkopf]

i sold off my A7ii a few years ago because of this problem

[@kevindiaz3459]

People might laugh at that pinky thing, but seriously the pinky is possibly the grippiest part of a person's grip on something. I have held a Sony with and without that stupid pinky thing, and it made a huge difference in comfort (and I rarely speak in hyperbole). I felt like I was about to drop the damn thing without it. But that price is WTF?!? Don't know how much a battery grip is, but I think I would want to put my money into that instead. 130 bucks, go screw Sony! I am sure there will be 30 dollar chinese versions... I hear people say stupid crap like "but the whole point of mirrorless is that it is smaller". I call BS on that. For one, who says that it has to be? And for two, they can correct the ergos on these bodies while still offering a system that is lighter and smaller than DSLR cameras, and this can even fix other issues. Larger space for a larger battery, more space for more competent cooling solutions, better counter balance for heavy lenses, space for the knuckle on a flip screen (at least on models that are clearly meant for video as well as stills, the A9 is probably not needing a fully articulating screen). I say make it slightly thicker and a little wider on the grip side. More beef to the grip. It can be easy to hold and still fairly compact.

[@shang-hsienyang1284]

I have a US$40 Chinese version that comes with a battery door and tripod mount.

[@MMaven]

I agree 100%. Feels like DSLR grips on mirrorless bodies is what Nikon and canon are doing now

[@thebadmanreturns]

Many Cheap Accecories, such as L Bracket with Bottom for *Pinky Finger* not a problem at all

[@anthonyc1883]

Kevin Diaz Grip is $325+

[@tonyjames5444]

Poor ergonomics combined with poor weather sealing, got a feeling though Sony will address these issues with the a7iv/a7riv, perhaps we will see the changes on the a9 successor?

[@frankfeng2701]

Sony designs its cameras for Asian hands.

[@thebadmanreturns]

*True* the biggest market for Sony Alpha is China

[@frankfeng2701]

@@thebadmanreturns In fact in China there's another name for mirrorless, first coined by Sony, "Mini ILC" (微单), meaning the body has to be small. Regardless, the grip should and can be improved.

[@PaulChoate-s4v]

My knuckles always rubber agsinst the lens. The ergonomics were not good. Canon and Panosonic have far better ergonomics.

[@gggum]

yes, I switch to nikon Z mostly because of the ergonomic is bad on Sony, and also the terrible UI and menu, made it feels like a high-tech shutter box instead of a real camera.

[@matahari1576]

Far too small bodies, overpriced lenses, terrible customer service, most terrible menues in the Universe... Weak built quality....

[@mallred4347]

This is the second negative Sony video you've posted Michael (within two weeks of each other). Do you have some hostility towards Sony now that Nikon has come out with mirrorless cameras (that are basically repackaged Sony cameras - Sensor, EVF, last generation electronics, etc.)?

[@MMaven]

Doesn’t sound like you actually watched either of them.

[@mariobrunettin8338]

I sold all my sony gears because of the pinky and knuckles problem

[@gregthomasphotography]

I really find the ergonomics a non event, this seems like a video on something irrelevant

[@MMaven]

Hmmm, so no other opinions matter but your own?

[@caldera878]

Sony E-mount cameras are the worst in ergonomics. It's like holding onto a brick.

[@fatbaldandhappy]

@5:16 What's a madcake?

[@MMaven]

I can't tell you. Non disclosure agreement

[@ThePandaPhotographer]

fatbaldandhappy yes what is a mad cake