Sony TC-K870ES: TDK battle - How much better is a better tape?

[@jhschmidMD4]

With the KZbin compression in the mix, it's hard to know how much of an effect that has on the results, but I could definitely discern a difference between all tapes. The D sounded very, very good, but that's not surprising seeing as it was a late D, and not an early one. Also, the mid-range sounded a bit crushed, with noticeably smaller sound-stage when compared to the others. The MA sounded identical to the source (again, not surprisingly). The SA-SX sounded slightly less accurate to the source than the MA, but it did nevertheless, sound the best to me. Wide and deep sound-stage, with all the lows and mids, and super crisp, clear highs. If they weren't nearly impossible to get, I'd buy as many as possible! Nice video - thanks!

[@nakamichi682zx]

Excellent analysis Jeff. I agree with everything you say (including the "nod" to modern Ds, on which many might differ). Solid input!!

[@VintageAudioTech]

You can hear everything. I can’t stand these people saying KZbin crushes audio. Use your ears ! You can clearly hear in this video. Give me a freaking break!

[@jhschmidMD4]

@@VintageAudioTech I never said that You Tube compression "crushes" the audio. I did say I didn't know how much of an effect it would have. Try fully reading the post BEFORE you comment to avoid sounding pompous.

[@VintageAudioTech]

I’m not necessarily calling on your comment. But on everyone who says you can’t judge from a KZbin video. Some videos are better than others, but everyone blames KZbin saying you can’t judge audio differences. I can hear a clear difference with this video and some others. At least you watched the video. Some people won’t even watch the video and say because it will sound bad My 2 cents

[@Gez492]

​@jhschmidMD4 Not to stir the pot too much here guys but the post did say crushes the mid range, can't see how the deck would do that, and I didn't hear that particularly in my headphones, so the implication is easily made be it mistakenly that its youtube. What is clear is the differences regardless of any KZbin algorithm. The Chrome sounded way too forward for me with the D sounding warm and surprisingly pleasant, but the metal managed a faithful rendition that seemed less cold and forward than the Chrome. This was an excellent demonstration of tape & tape machine capability. Clearly, this is a superb machine fully capable of stunning recordings on different formulations.

[@Tao_Chan]

It's always a greatfool experience to listen so wonderfool tapedeck and greatfool music. Thank you so much.🙏

[@CaptainDangeax]

Owner of a Denon DRM740, I made 2 identical tapes lately, with Dolby B. To my surprise, the sound was better on the TDK D than on the Maxell SX II.

[@m80116]

The greater advantage of the metal cassette lies in the upper high frequency range, hidden from most ears. To appreciate such a difference by ear alone is necessary something like a nipping piece of rock and push the recording level peak to 4dB and beyond, past the saturation point of ferric and ferric-cobalt formulations. Comparisons useful for a discerning ear should be A to B, about 3 to 10 seconds in length played in sequence one after the other. I appreciated the quality of your video and direct audio IN. TDK D is underestimated by sales volume. One of the best basic ferric ever produced for a lot of good reasons. My favorite is obviously the TDK D: stellar price to performance ratio, has the edge over most for CD and regular ferric (including SONY's own HF according to many), it's not out of place on this deck and fits perfectly well inside Walkman(s) with tiny and offset windows.

[@VintageAudioTech]

It's a good deck. I have owned MANY of those TC-K870ES decks (10 In My Time) Worth the money

[@RakeshKumar26026]

It was My Dream.....in past 😢

[@tuffytoys9707]

I could not tell the difference listening through cheap headphones but I could tell that I preferred the sounds coming off the cassettes rather than the source. Great video and Good tape deck.

[@adamus000]

Beautiful deck and amazing sound👍♥

[@avisio]

Nice comparison and well done! To my ears the snare drum loses some brightness on the D probably because of tape saturation and the balance of the SA-XS and MA is different with the SA-XS having the typical bass boost of two layer tapes but they both have clean high notes. Noise level is obviously also quite a bit higher on the D than the better tapes.

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thank you! Interesting. I actually did consider keeping the level of the D a few dBs lower, at the expense of more audible hiss, but decided to stick with a higher level as the tape easily could handle it without any major distortion. Always a bit of a compromise.. :) Just out of curiosity, do you (or anybody reading this comment) notice any hiss at a "normal listening level" :) while the music is playing?

[@bbfoto7248]

@@SerafimSvensson I'm late to the party, but at this listening level and with this particular recording (great choice, BTW!), the hiss is not significantly noticeable or objectionable. However, the SA-XS and MA are perceived as if they have more dynamic range and more of a "black" or noiseless background. The SA-SX and MA clearly had a wider frequency response at each extreme, and much higher resolution of detail throughout....just listen to the Tambourine as well as the Snare Drum, and concentrate on the Bass and Kick Drum for the low end. The SA-XS and MA also better defined the imaging and soundstage...it really "opened up" with more space and separation between all of the instruments and a blacker background between them. Overall (from just a quick and informal listen) I prefer the SA-XS. Now if they would only start manufacturing these again, and at a REASONABLE price, we would all be in heaven! 😛 FYI, Anthony Grimani, who was a former lead engineer at Dolby Labs during the Cassette Tape and early CD era, conducted listening tests comparing Cassette Playback using Type II tapes versus a direct, level-matched CD playback of the same recording (same master), and with Dolby C or better engaged, NO ONE in the group could discern the difference between the CD and Cassette. 😊 I'm currently running a completely serviced and beautiful *Akai GX-95* 3-head cassette deck. I don't know how it compares to this or similar Sony ES 3-head cassette decks, but I've been very pleased with its performance. Do you have any experience with the Akai GX-95??? And Thank You for this excellent comparison, as well as all of your other videos! I have a soft spot for Sony ES gear...or at least some of it. I still use the Sony Mobile ES CDX-90 car audio CD source unit with it's companion ES XDP-4000X 8-channel DSP in one of my "old school" car audio systems. It's pure Sonic Bliss. 🙂 Cheers!

[@lajosvarga6431]

Congratulation! Great comparison. Apart from the noise, practically there is very little difference between the source and the tapes. The D is surprisingly good, especially taking into account the price. I liked the sound of SA-SX the most. The metal tape has not been used up to its full potential (because of the shake of comparable levels, of course). In the bottom line, all three is beautiful sounding tape, and the K870ES is a remarkable deck. Thank you very much for sharing.

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thank you very much for your supportive comment! And for letting me know which tape you prefer. I was actually kind of expecting most people to prefer the metal, so this was very informative. :) I was honestly a bit surprised by the performance of the D myself, especially when comparing them like this "side-by-side". To my ears it's the lesser of the three, but considering the price, I think it's a real champion.

[@Sonnell]

@@SerafimSvensson I think the deck and proper calibration what makes the real difference.

[@convair52]

I listened to this using only a 7 dollar no name brand headphone but I can still hear the difference. In my opinion I like the way TDK SA-XS sounds. TDK D is on a neutral side and also the TDK MA but more headroom.

[@SerafimSvensson]

Impressive! For the money, it must be really decent headphones. :)

[@piotro9994]

Great work! Please think about Maxell XLII-S and MX-S 😉

[@ecstasy5317]

Yes sirrrr..... both MX-S and XLII-S were excellent but I noticed that differences in audio reproduction between the MX-S and MX were bigger than comparing the XLII-S against the XLII. TDK MA-X/MA-XS were fine sounding also. 👍

[@TheBebe666]

Honestly...i like more 870ES over 890ES : This one sounds a bit better to me and looks more classy. Thank you:)

[@m80116]

It's the cassette door... one of the best styles ever on a SONY. Unfortunately because of the heavy stabilizer system all we can see from the cassette is some backlit reels spooling in the dark. I wish they came out with something like the 70s slanted transport design, with back and top lighting. That would be absolute VENERATION.

[@sc0or]

Hm.. They are identical. You will not found a schematic in 890 service manual cause there is a note: “look into 870 SM”.

[@Rockin_Kat]

Surprisingly TDK D the best. The only one that retained the natural sound of the instruments.

[@zdravkomatosevic1241]

Very Nice Deck

[@tobiaszpasterski481]

The best left-pocket deck made by Sony. Very pretty deck particularly with wooden panels. 850/870 ES best. 890 ES unfortunately has worse frequency response.

[@SerafimSvensson]

I totally agree, I think it's the best looking one of the 850/870/890-series. :)

[@tobiaszpasterski481]

@@SerafimSvensson Yes sir :) Agree :) 3 beautiful series. BTW I wolud like to have 950 or 970 25-30 years ago. Of course with wooden panels. Then i bought Pioneer CT-S740 S and I made mistake. I could pay extra to CT-777 or CT-S710S. CT-S740S has a faulty mechanism that breaks down. This means that without warning, not two drive axles rotate, but one axle. Then one axle unwinds the tape. Then you need to quickly turn off the power. It is audible(noise). Probably some driver or drive controller is faulty. This mod has this problem. The "reference master" reference mechanism, but probably not entirely.

[@Gez492]

For me there are a couple of things to note. I am impressed with the warmth of the D90 I was expecting it to sound a little muddied but it wasn't. So props to the 870ES biasing. The Chrome performed as I was expecting it to, much more forward and bright, not a sound I would be listening to for long periods. The Metal seemed to reign in the Brightness somewhat, allowing a warmth akin to the D90 but with the added dynamics and detail you could expect from a good quality Metal tape biased well on a great machine and the 870 is a great machine. So my overall impressions 1ST place the Metal; 2nd Ferric and 3rd The Chrome. Such a surprise how good the D90 could sound. The sad learning from this, I gave up on Cassettes far to soon. I put out for the rubbish a perfectly working Aiwa ADF990!!!!! and gave away a great performing Sony TCK 611S and with it a whole bunch of TDK MAXG's and Sony super Metal Master tapes

[@ShazeemKhan]

Wow u shud have sold the Aiwa ir gave it away. Not throw out good working stuff

[@Gez492]

@ShazeemKhan yeah it was at a time when we were led to believe there was no value in these "inferior" technologies, and no one would want to buy it. Sadly and expensively, I now know different.

[@ShazeemKhan]

@@Gez492 🥺😢 Oh ok, shoot, that is hard, I thought u had know at the time. I got my fair share of bad investments, too FWIW. I have about 4 or 5 non working decks just sitting there. No support for them in my island, techs don't fix them, sadly

[@darrenwendell1723]

Can't hear any difference because of youtube audio conversion. Where is your end result?

[@JeHaVe]

What a great video! 👌👌👌

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thank you! 🥰

[@motofingo]

omg! so beautiful

[@batterieman3001]

Great comparison! The difference between the tapes was way smaller than I anticipated. What source did you play the audio from?

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thank you very much! My equipment used in this test isn't super fancy, but I think it's somewhat adequate. :) For playback I used an iFi Audio ZEN DAC and for recording an Audient EVO 4. The source material is the 2013 MFSL SACD of Brothers in Arms.

[@batterieman3001]

@@SerafimSvensson Considering your deck is part of the ES Series, I think fancy is an adequate term to describe it!

[@SerafimSvensson]

@@batterieman3001 Haha yes, I agree! The deck is a fine piece of equipment. I was actually referring to the iFi and Audient, which I hope is adequate enough in its presence. :)

[@timaengtipi3360]

Is this a real cassette tape treble output sound or youtube output sound or head.

[@broksi6509]

Nice video, i have a Sony TC-K909ES, how does it compare to this deck

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thank you! Unfortunately I hadn't had the pleasure to try the TC-K909ES, so I don't know. :(

[@aramkaterdjian5952]

Are you selling it

[@GREENTICKETRO]

i have all the kind cassette tapes,all makers,but for me i preffer always a good type 1 cassette tape,over the metal or type 2.Tdk AR-X for example sounds better than many metal tapes.Metal ,type2 cassette tend to sound more sterile,close to cd's!Something is happening recording on cassette tape,even is not perfect,for my ears sounds fantastic!And i am not only one who believe that!Try it!

[@SerafimSvensson]

I have a soft spot for super ferrics myself. :) There will be a super ferric-comparison somewhere in the future. I just need to get my hands on a Maxell XLI-S from 1988 in good condition (only one missing for the planned test).. and finish work on the deck I plan to use before it will take off. :)

[@BalázsBencsik-k3i]

Wow! Nice deck! Great music. I hear absolutely no difference on the notebook with Sony MDR-XB600 headphones.

[@vinniemorciglio4632]

Interesting how much Bias and level adjustments the D and SA-SX needed, but the MA barely any. I'm assuming the Deck was calibrated to Sony formulations at the factory.....

[@SerafimSvensson]

To be honest, I have no idea. But it's probably a good assumption, if their formulations at the time weren't extreme and made calibration of tapes from other manufacturers impossible. If memory serves me correctly, I did not touch the internal BIAS pots when I serviced the unit and checked frequency response etc., so it should be very close to default stock settings.

[@vinniemorciglio4632]

@@SerafimSvensson Thanks! I am always interested in how companies determined where the best balance sound-wise could be achieved on particular tapes and matching the decks as best as possible, especially for lower-end models with no manual adjustments.

[@tarunsangeet6816]

While this is obviously a comparison of these three radically different yet similar tapes, I give (more than) full marks to this SONY TC-K870ES, if they were indeed recorded on it. There's absolutely NO discernible difference between them. Does that also mean that the TC-K950ES and the TC-K770ES are better than this K870ES. If yes, how can they be better than this!!?

[@SerafimSvensson]

With a quality DAC and good headphones, I can certainly tell that there is a difference between them. But is it massive? Not according to my ears. The TDK D is the easiest to spot during some passages of the song, but I can't really decide if I like the MA or SA-XS best. Honestly, they all sound fine to me. But I'm a bit over 40 so things have started to degrade in general, while I also lack that analytical audiophile gene some seem to possess. If it sounds good enough, I'm satisfied without overthinking it. 😉 The TC-K750/770/790ES-series (they are quite similar) are the cheapest of the bunch, with the 800-series in between the TOTL (for the European market) 900-series. The 700 and 800-series are quite similar in build quality and, while they are indeed different, both use a 4066 CMOS switch instead of a relay in the outgoing signal path. According to real audiophiles, this affects the sound quality in a negative manner. I actually did a total blind test (recorded the output and switched between them with my eyes closed) some time ago comparing my fully restored TC-K750ES and TC-K950ES with each others. I really couldn't tell which one I was listening to. 😀 So, the TC-K950ES is probably wasted on me sound quality-wise, but at least it's build quality is magnificent compared to the TC-K750ES. 😀

[@gerrylobao]

Das ist das Spitzen Tape

[@HX_The]

I have Sony deck 555esg, it's very good.

[@rogerking7258]

Why no Dolby?

[@powerday_Hi-B]

Потому что высококласной деке, долби не нужна.

[@SerafimSvensson]

Honestly I'm not very bothered by the noise at these recording levels while listening at a, for me, normal playback volume. But that's just me. So out of curiosity, is the noise bothering you? If so, also for type 2 and 4?

[@m80116]

It's exactly why I wouldn't use Dolby either for such a single recording. The lowest part in the beginning starts at around -20 dB for what I see, easily able to overshadow any background hiss. Dolby could make sense where the maximum dynamic range is needed, should an album have greater range than a single track or types of music where very quiet passages can detract from the listening experience with too much background hiss.

[@SerafimSvensson]

Thanks for your comment, I couldn't agree more. :)

[@dendys04]

i like more the tdk sa xs then tdk ma

[@rejirevathy2093]

Price….?

[@rdvancoban5230]

Type 2 does not need to rotate I guess :D

[@SerafimSvensson]

:DDD At first I didn't understand your comment at all, buuut suddenly it hit me! At lower resolutions than 4k the rotation of the type 2 is actually "discarded" by the compression algorithm most of the time. That was.. eh, a bit unexpected. Impressive, darn good catch! :)

[@wiljoh83]

I would have to say… TDA MA!

[@gerrylobao]

Ich habe das TC-K670

[@blade3120]

DO NT MADE IT TUNING THE CASETTE SOME CASETTES DOES NOT ACCEPT TUNING EXPECULY CASETTES HAVE LOW OUTPUT!

[@cosicamir]

MA

[@acefrehley3797]

DO YOU KNOW WHERE: "E.S." STANDS FOR ?. "EXTREAM SONY." IN JAPAN IS A TEAM OF NINE SPECIALISTS. AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. AND SO YOU GET SKYHIGH PRICES. AND THE BEST IF YOU USE SONY TAPES TO. IF YOU TAKE FROM AL THE SONY TAPES. THE: "E.S." VERSIONS TO. YOU HAVE THE BEST. WEL IF YOU TAKE AN AMP. FROM THE: "E.S." SERIES. TO. AND THE: "APM." SPEAKERS TO. THE SPEAKERS ARE FLAT.