Spanish counters to Italian fencing

Don Puck un Zapo demonstrates elements of the Spanish sidesword at Known World Academy of the Rapier (2007)

[@Bladestar7]

If you guys want to know something extra, a lot of the spanish footwork and strikes were adopted into filipino martial arts, specificall their stick/blade fighting. The Filipinos took some of the ideas from the conqistitors and used it in their martial art. The difference is in FMA those same attacks and footwork can be used with and without the weapon.

[@jorndoff2002]

They were used with and without weapons in Spain as well. No difference. The Filipinos did a watered down version if anything.

[@Primalintent]

​@@jorndoff2002Just because the commenter didn't know you can use it without a weapon in Spain too, doesn't mean FMA systems are "watered down". They had their systems before colonization and they were just as intricate. So settle down with the colonial brainlet there.

[@wehrewulf]

​​​​​@@PrimalintentPre-Colonial Filipino combatives were primitive until the introduction of Spanish technique, and steel. The Filipinos take offense to this notion because they have exported their arts as Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis to the west as a pride thing, and a money maker for the instructors without admitting Spanish fencing influence. Truth be told it is largely a scam in the west using watered down methods, and flow drill based mechanics that have little use in actual edged weapon application. It is pretty, but doesn't hold up ( as depicted) in combat. Allegedy Ferninand Magellan was killed by the cheftain Lapu-Lapu on the beach using a fire hardened rattan stick. Maybe a lucky blow, a sneak attack, or it never actually happened; however, they owe much of their refined technique to Spanish fencing, and prior to that it was largely untechnical stick and barong ass beating. I have studied both, and some Filipino systems maintain a great deal of fencing mechanics, and technique, many more have turned it into watered down patty-cake with compliant, static "attackers".

[@cristianolima3712]

Many of these attacks exist in gong fu.

[@joerosa2532]

In the 2006 Spanish film "Alatriste" starring Viggo Mortensen, the rivalry between Spanish and Italian fencing is notably highlighted. Historicallly, at the time, southern Italy and Sicily were part of the Kingdom of Spain and many Spanish soldiers came from these areas. In the film, Mortensen has an epic duel with his main protagonist, a Sicilian swordsman and assassin played by Sicilian actor Enrico LoVerso. A very patriotic Spanish film.

[@dab0331]

And that movie shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing. His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.

[@ProfessuhLemon]

He forgot the most important tip: R1 R1 R1 R1 R1

[@celtibero599]

Isaiah I prefer L2 R2222222...

[@Ferelcapox7]

ptsd

[@PuckCurtis]

Hola, This is a brief part of a larger 3 hour class. The goal was to present the information as clearly as possible to students. I hope that it is clear that the material is interpreted and no demonstration is ever perfect. The material presented is specifically from Pacheco's "New Science" with some information also from Cruzado's commentary on the same text. The techniques demonstrated are: Treta 16 - The Gain (Ganancia) Treta 3 - The Lunge (Botonazo) Treta 12 - The Beat (Golpe) Puck

[@N.Nocturne]

Oh neat, insert customary "first reply to 12y.o. comment" comment.

[@tristanstorm5608]

Greetings :) where can I find such nice rapiers?

[@Nyxiebunny]

I read that Italian fencing favored more linear footwork over time, while the Spanish school favored side-to-side movement to get a better angle of attack on the opponent. BTW, the guy in red with the steel helmet looks scary...

[@orgullomexicano24]

I prefer historical fencing than modern/olimpic fencing, and this is a great video about one if not the best fencing techniques, there's no doubt the Spanish system is deadly, I love it, and I use some of these moves for olympic fencing, and it works, thanks for uploading this video. 5 STARS in my opinion.

[@borimirtheboring]

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti's defense against me ah? Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain. Inigo Montoya: Naturally you must expect me to attack with Capa Ferro? Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro, don't you? Inigo Montoya: Unless your enemy has studdied his Agrippa, which have.

[@darthclone7]

+borimirtheboring where is that from??

[@borimirtheboring]

The Princess Bride

[@shanoabelnades8942]

thank goodness someone has a good sense of humor thanks for the princess bride perhaps ican interest you in senor arturo perez-revertes capitan alatriste~xoxo

[@IdleDrifter]

Anyone who has seen The Princess Bride read this script exactly as it happened in the movie. Voices, banter, and all.

[@omenow]

"Íñigo", not "Inigo".

[@johnrechtoris9796]

This is a great little intro to Destreza for putting the basic concepts of right angle, circular movements, no-lunge in their martial context, to dispel any notion that these are no more than stylistic affectations.

[@PuckCurtis]

According to one scholar, dancing in the 1600s is influenced by the fencing. There is a text on Spanish 17th century dancing that shows the dance footwork used the same terminology as the fencing manuals. This is described as an attempt to market dancing to a Spanish aristocracy that had already embraced fencing. See The Art of Dancing in Seventeenth-century Spain By Lynn Matluck Brooks.

[@Seofthwa]

The lunge is an aggressive move in the Italian system, it is a kind of win or die thing. The Spanish system from what I have seen is more defensive and has a lot of counter attacks.

[@pjboom]

Yeah, as my teacher usually said the lunge was usually called the 2 widow move XD because it usually ended with both dead.

[@Seofthwa]

Yup, double touch can happen a lot in epee. That is the only issue with sport fencing IMHO is that it becomes a race to 5 touches, and that is why I switched to historic fencing since they realize that if you lose you likely die and therefore focus on having defense.

[@BajoPresupuestoCientifico]

The spanish system "La Verdadera Destreza" was thought to be a "christian" way of defense. You would go more to disable your opponents than to outright kill them (like italians with Fabrizz or however the f*** its written). This gives you a much more defensive and secure system, you would either stop the fight or disable your opponent. With other systems, like the one mentioned before, you would either kill your opponent or die/get severely injured.

[@neohenry8292]

Andres Halabi Where is the reference / book for that information about Destreza?

[@BajoPresupuestoCientifico]

+Neo Henry From the treaties of Carranza if I recall correctly... The sole name of the manual is something like "Treaty about true destreza and the defense of the christian". This is valid only for Verdadera Destreza tho, Vulgar (Common) Destreza resembles much more italian fencing like Capo Ferros where you may take a bit riskier lunges and ateos, but still on a pretty solid bases. Hope I tempestades clarify it a bit.

[@benaveiga546]

I was waiting for one of these people to come in dessed as Darth Vader..

[@artinhjollder4779]

It is an obvious commitment for every true proponent of the art to make a martial, spiritual and technical review on the teachings of legendary maestros like Don Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza and Luis Pacheco de Narváez (16th century). There is no end to the vivacity, beauty and magnificence of ancient fencing. (épéeist - 33)

[@_PJW_]

What a great teacher. Constantly checking understanding.

[@IberoamericanHEMASociety]

Italian is linear and is more based on sword work aimed more towards attacking and killing the oponent. Spanish combat is circular and it combines footwork, geometry applied, math and other sciences as well as angular movements ououtside of the line of attack and it's primary objective is to control of the oponents' blade before striking.The last objective being taking a life since killing was considered mortal sin in the Catholic religion. You could watch some videos of CanalAEEA of Spain

[@christiana.v.w1607]

In Spanish style the aim was not kill, but "not to die".

[@josefranciscoramirez4438]

A little biased explanation I must say, you differentiate the styles very well but to say that they applied geometry, math and science it is a stretch, they did no more than ant other style did, do you believe that other fencers developed their styles based on what looked more fancy or what experience showed them what was more effective? And to the religious part... Yes Spaniards were catholics but guess who else were, italians, they are quite literally the capital of catholicism, wars, duels, you kinda forget how big of a sin it is to kill but rather think how big of tragedy would be to die.

[@vesrra8185]

​​@@josefranciscoramirez4438You can search on the internet for these manuals, called VERDADERA DESTREZA, it uses geometry maths and more. Because half italy was spanish he was refereng to taht. Also there are a lot or tretas to disarm and not to kill, as he said it was a sin.

[@lebarosky]

Revisiting after a year: still a great vid. Diego Alatriste would be proud of you, Don Puck.

[@senorsombrero1275]

This made me think of the Alatriste novel series by Arturo Perez-Reverte, and Alatriste’s rivalry with the italian Malatesta.

[@wiskadjak]

Natasel. Giacomo Di Grassi says that a Gentleman should be able to improvise a weapon with whatever is at hand as he may not always have his sword. He probably didn't have goats in mind when he wrote that but probably would have advised us that time & measure apply to goat swinging too.

[@archaont]

There is an English expression of the time q explains this perfectly: "Spanish love at sea, and if not so, to protect us from St. George"

[@notfeedynotlazy]

And amusingly the Spanish said "Englishmen I want at land, and at sea, Virgin Mary help us". Talk about mutual grudgy respect...

[@thor2795]

notfeedy notlazy sorry but nobody say that in spain. We said «todo buen español debe mear mirando a inglaterra ».😅🤣

[@alexisxyz7531]

@@thor2795 Yo siempre lo hago xD directito pa' inglaterra.

[@lrdkuzco]

I had heard the Spanish expression, it is curious that the English have a similar and inverse expression XD

[@mbcrra]

Grande Blas de Lezo

[@drake919]

Comments drifting into politics and religion have been deleted. Not relevant to subject matter.

[@Tigerseye41]

high brow thinking, im all for authoritarian enforced liberalism

[@crowbirdryuell]

@@Tigerseye41 😂

[@zyrkugilgamesh]

Who the fuck was talking politics in a fencing video?

[@nathanjstoic]

@@Tigerseye41 No one cares 😂

[@nonpippi9404]

わお！なんてこと！最高！✨ 極めてる…！！宗教に関してのものをよけているの素敵！

[@dab0331]

The movie Alatriste shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing. His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.

[@JuandelaCruz001]

As someone who used to practice FMA, I can see the deep "strategic" influence.

[@wilb6657]

probably not surprising. The Philippines were colonized by the Spaniards.....starting during the Renaissance....

[@s216674]

Interesting video. I can really see the relationship between Spanish sword work and the Filipino Martial Arts that I study. Obviously the differences in the sword shapes and styles necessitate alterations but there are a good deal of similarities as well. Nice video and it is good to see Western Martial Arts making a comeback in recent years. I feel that in general, Western fighting abilities have been overlooked and downplayed to the benefit of Eastern methods.

[@iarroganti]

You don't see bent knees in Destreza. That is consistent throughout. I don't remember any illustrations in Carranza, but Narvaez, Ettenhard, Thibault (an offshoot of Destreza), all have a very upright stance, and I have seen the same guard in texts up to the 19th century. I don't know how well it would work with the light blades of modern fencing, but it is quite effective with 16th & 17th century blades (and given the longevity, I assume 18th & 19th century blades as well.)

[@RobertRutherfoord]

Commenting in 2020, I love how this video has over 300k views. Puck Curtis is the man!

[@1337vortexparadox]

I really liked this video. Good job Don Puck Un Zapo!

[@matthewpham9525]

Hello from 2019! Hard to believe this was more than a decade ago.

[@NothingCanDescribeUs]

I love unintentionally finding SCA videos or mentions

[@PuckCurtis]

In the video there is also a discussion on engagement/parries. We must differentiate a French foil parry/engagement from the Italian system. French smallsword parries leave the tip on target and do not completely close the line. They are susceptible to forced glides. (See Gaugler's Science p.31). I was showing a specific action but if opposed by a French parry, there are a wide range of different options. In this case, I needed to stick to a particular technique as described in the text.

[@PuckCurtis]

The flick is a modern sporting innovation which relies on a light flexible blade. On the other hand circular cuts have a much longer history outside the sporting context. Replacing the full circular cut with a half cut is a valid option but that isn't what was described in the source text.

[@willnonya9438]

This is a pretty nice little video. I like his teaching style, and I am sure I can apply some of this to long sword.

[@TemenosL]

I second your posts, "it's sad times when people make comments about such that they know not of, or of people they haven't taken the time to learn about." Amen.

[@ookamiwarrior]

This guy really knows his stuff. 5 stars.

[@Erik1495]

@drake919 what type of sword is this? i have been looking all day and i cant find out? also do you know if i can learn this type of fencing with this particular type of sword in mexico?

[@wilowhisp]

@demomanchaos actually there were a couple shields associated with Fencing, the small buckler, and the larger Rotella, I think it would be Rodela in Spanish. The works of the Italian master CapoFerro illustrate the use of the Rotella and Rapier.

[@bardia1]

Buffing up on those fencing skills, getting ready for that zombie apocalypse, eh? good, good

[@trilaina]

We would like to offer our weight in chocolate chip cookies for Maestro Puck to relocate to our shire. This video proved very useful to us. Thanks for putting it up!

[@derfilmmacher]

Thanks for putting this up. I love the grip-counter. I study Doce Pares as well as western fencing. Interesting to see this technique.

[@joeerickson516]

"One for all and all for one!" D'artagan and the three 3⃣ musketeers.

[@guiltyspark9]

That last move he did at the end was sweet because no one saw it coming.

[@Okaruwazashi]

@lysandermckain He is moving slowly because he's teaching technique and principles - it's the first and gentlest stage of training for combat. I asked about your background because real combat techniques (performed like this) often look silly to someone who does heavy sparring but hasn't learnt a pre-existing martial art. I've only dabbled in fencing but these techniques seem to reflect common martial principles: timing, posture, leverage, yielding rather than opposing force, etc..

[@YerkoMoevius]

this video blew my mind, thanks

[@enovos3138]

Are there any more videos of this class?

[@iarroganti]

@therealcaz - I was using a Sidesword blade from Darkwood Armory in the video. I don't see that particular guard on their website any more (I think I bought it in 2005 or 2006), but they have plenty of very nice hilts available.

[@iarroganti]

@jagerma5ter I am pretty sure that he is using either a rapier or sidesword blade from Darkwood Armory. You can look them up on-line, and they have a very nice selection of blades designed for sparring.

[@stillnessinmovement]

this is almost the exact same movement as Pi chuan from hsing i. the difference is the step is more towards the person, not as much to the side. lovely.

[@Mamurai]

All of it depends on periods of course, but the Europeans folded steel way back like the Japanese. Why? To make their blades stronger of course. Later on Europeans had no need to fold any longer as they found ways to make great steel. The Japanese continued to do so. As for fighting styles I would say the europeans styles are superior, but as always it depends on the fighter.

[@jona_ej2330]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles

[@joshintheshell]

This is fascinating, and I really would like to learn true fencing. How could I go about finding a place that teaches fencing that is not the modern sport version? If you know specifics, I am in central Texas, if not an online resource I can use to find one. Much obliged.

[@user-ib3ji4by1l]

BRAVO!

[@dr.nostalgica]

Un ruso comentando en español en un video de habla anglosajona ¿hola?

[@pumpSHO]

well the older the dance the closer to fighting it is, the footwork in the tango is very similar to the circle walking in bagua so i was making the leap trying to see what influenced the footwork this is a great video, wish there were more like it explaining Spanish Fencing but i have a question what is french, Italian, the rest of europe's fencing like?

[@javierduenasjimenez7930]

The spanish way is te best way of fencing.

[@martialfarts4509]

If you ask me, there's a time and a place for both Spanish and Italian concepts. I've been looking at destreza for a number of months now and I'm adoring the system. However, I still believe there is a place for the other styles. I don't believe any system is the "best", since there are weaknesses in any system, but destreza is certainly a great one :)

[@johnbland1585]

unless you know the Italian way...and from a Spanish teacher Ha.

[@grigorirasputin7165]

@@johnbland1585Spanish fencing was legendary back then... that’s the style that dominated the world

[@Specter_1125]

@@grigorirasputin7165 so was Italian and French fencing

[@iarroganti]

True. I don't think of the Italian (esp. Capoferro) use of the rotella as relying on the the shield, but as using it to support the blade, which is still the primary defense. I may have been missed demomanchaos's meaning, but the image I had was closer to a left foot forward version of CF's position F. I see that more often and see it requiring tempos to attack. Against someone using CF's Rotella, I work towards constraining the blade as normal, and direct more attacks to the outside line.

[@kylebezold1641]

With that last bit all I can think is "what time is it? Oh it's headshot time"

[@therealcaz]

what's the name of the sword that holds the green guy?

[@talleman1]

Still my favorite.

[@mzambo666]

Awesome!

[@genesis098123]

really interesting

[@ezesvin]

jes, very good instructor!

[@londiniumarmoury7037]

Nice demonstration, just came across your channel, Subbed.

[@user-wt5jc6nb9b]

after he gets the beat in can't you transverse step and thrust in?

[@copypacercopypacer]

@drake919 what is fencing called in spanish....they say its escrima...but escrima is a spanish words for filipino fencing

[@MrCarloArellano]

thank you this was very informative

[@iarroganti]

Maestro Puck's wife Mary is working on translating Carranza, and I believe much of Narvaez. Her specialty is in Golden Age Spanish. However, I don't know what the timing is.

[@alwoolridge6377]

@drake919 Isn't Heinlein the genius behind Starship Troopers?

[@israelsanchez4433]

Thanks from spain for teach the destreza española.

[@ricardoaguilar4750]

Nice great work

[@timothyhewison1594]

where to learn ?

[@billtheswordguy5914]

Sorry, meant to finish that sentence with "stepping off the line of attack to the RIGHT is modern, and successful." This seemed to be discovered during the seminar. Was this the point of the exercise?

[@FirstLast-cg9ic]

What rapier were you using in this video? Or sidesword; it kinda looks more like a sidesword. And can you use some sabre techniques like the moulinet and Polish cross-cutting with a sidesword?

[@iarroganti]

I am the guy in green on the thumbnail. I had a Darkwood sidesword and I believe that Puck has a Darkwood rapier in the video. While there are some cuts from the wrist, similar to an Italian 16th century Stramazone, I don't think was much cross over at that point. I think I saw that Marcelli was the first Italian master to discuss it and that it was the fashionable new thing after the Polish Charge saved the day at the Siege of Vienna in 1683. There are later treatises on Destreza saber, but I think they have a lot of non-Spanish influence as French teachers had a lot of influence after the War of Spanish Succession when Bourbon kings took the throne of Spain. If you are interested, you might check Jaime Merolo y Casedemunt from 1862. It looks like there is a translation for sale on lulu.com

[@Okaruwazashi]

@lysandermckain Do you study a particular historical system? Most of them look more or less like this in my experience. I don't think this is stage fencing.

[@halfassedfart]

@brainplay I don't know what systems you've been looking at, but it definitely does. To claim that it doesn't indicates that there's something missing from your pressure-testing. Also, if you'd read between the lines, you'd notice that I was addressing training volume and intensity more than anything else.

[@jagerma5ter]

what rapier is the teacher using? It's nice.

[@iarroganti]

It is not modern fencing, but it is historic Spanish Destreza of the late 16th & early 17th centuries. Modern fencing is largely evolved from French and Italian schools that were more linear in their approach. Destreza took a more circular approach that led well to cuts. Also that the blades were heavier and had edges and a taper, which greatly affect the blade mechanics. What he is teaching is taken directly from the writings of Narvaez, one of the most respected masters of his day.

[@OstherPvP]

modern fencing it's shit compared like oldschool

[@Thesocraticbreed]

lol its funny how similar I do my rapier to destreza.. . I always hang out in terza and I do study a lot of Scherma, which Destreza was based off of.

[@iarroganti]

@murrayro The terms are different, but the Spanish do use the same hand positions. In workshops, he always lets the students know that he is coming from a classical italian background which could influence interpretation. I think part of the reason for describing it that way is most people in the room were familiar with Italian rapier, but not Destreza. Also Italian hand positions are not the same as the French ones commonly used in modern fencing. Ex. Terza has the palm facing in, not down.

[@dayanarias3458]

chinese ba gua step is very similiar it makes complete sense how he cuts the angle combining circle and line

[@galaxyknuckles9000]

Thanks learned a lot

[@Bladestar7]

You're right. the're are hardly any thrusts in FMA. Mostly slashes. But the footwork are very similar. They are both similar. I'm looking at the instructor's counter to the thrust taking a diagnal step and its very simialr. When someone is coming at you liner you take a circular angular counter. You can find that same kind of step in Wing Chun

[@thewildchimp]

It actually happened in 1896, count Santelli, captain of the guards of Vienna vs. Japanese emperor's chief retainer. Santelli won 96:4, I think. But it was probably more due to rapier being better weapon than katana. Because of that difference, average samurai were fairly better swordfighters than average Europeans (since they have larger drawback to overcome), but master on master - weapon specifications play large role.

[@Fardawg]

I can find zero reference to any of that.

[@conoid21594]

Hey quick question where would you get those swords?

[@edumorera7427]

If you want the original one, go to Toledo, España

[@whitetiger82821]

@karkkosvolfe Olympic fencing is growing, worldwide and in the USA. it has been growing for 100 plus years.

[@lysandermckain]

@Okaruwazashi It often happens that our rapier guys lack technique in sparring, but we've got the whole collection of fencing works to study. Anyway, maybe I'm wrong somewhere, buy I'd still say these "counters" can easily be countered back if done in the duelling speed.

[@PPartisan]

The prime parry was very interesting, I've yet to see that in a modern fencing match (unless they're taking to piss)

[@jetle25]

very good insturctor

[@21064a01]

Nice. Guro Dan was just talking about this a couple of days ago.

[@TriToneTiefling]

how can I find courses like these? I would love to learn some swordplay like this.

[@darsnordham]

ReasonForNo look up the Sca, society for creative anachronism. there are groups all over the world.

[@laurenceharper2037]

Who was the man who was teaching the class?

[@LuckyRob007]

That instructor, Mr. Puck .. yeah, that's my big brother. Represent.

[@nzfilm345]

yes very instructive !!

[@konradknox]

Puck! Love Puck!

[@PPartisan]

@whitetiger82821 I've used the prime position in some of my own epee matches but I haven't seen it at olympic level; I'm sure you're right though and it's just because it happened so quickly I didn't spot it.

[@Scuzzlebutt142]

Pretty much all the attacks initiated in this video could be taken and used unchanged in epee or foil, though you probably wouldn't necessarily worry about closing the line as much. The wrist pull and cut you obviously wouldn't see, though where he shows the disengage I actually said to myself before hand "disengage it". Even the cuts are similar to some sabre cuts, though deeper, and the last parry he shows is from a olympic perspective, high prime.

[@chris_1337]

3:12 is all you need

[@blacksilkblacksilk]

Funny how things evolve very similar in different times and places. This kind of footwork is very similar to a chines martial art called baguazhang. They use circular footwork to create angles from wich to attack. This is great stuff by the way. THX for posting silk

[@phoenixguild8375]

That's been done to me more than once

[@kenninast]

I train classical Japanese martial arts and a lot of what we call "tai sabaki" (body movement), "kamae" (stance) and the likes are amazingly similar to these movements. Very nice!!!

[@angelazzinnari6358]

Tai sabaki.....and irimi tenkan and kotegaeshi

[@Forthepaycheck88]

Google SCA in your area?

[@FairFerret]

The only text I know for sure "barrely about" it is L´Academie de l´Espee, but Im pretty sure your mate know it well. What I was trying to say is that Destreza is a "de facto" lost art as far as I know. But its great to see the efforts of some maestros trying to take it back to light, taking as a start the bases of the antique italian fencing art, and correct me if Im wrong, some Portuges remains about it. Pace^^

[@sharpie443]

With there was a pace to learn that kind of thing around me.

[@Scawking]

"I look at my watch" that's simultaneously the worst and best name for a parry I've ever heard

[@aceofr3ap3r21]

Spanish dude: You're using Bonettas defense against me huh?