Historical Complexities of Caste, Religion & Class in India | Manu Pillai Part 4

Did the Britishers’ “Divide and Rule” strategy divide Indians in the name of religion? Or did casteism already familiarise Indians with divisiveness? Or was it our past rulers who instilled a bias for our own faith?
For the last episode of our series with Manu S Pillai, we explore the complications casteism brought, the reigns of our past rulers, and the aftermath of events that went down in history.
About SparX Indian History Month:
In January, we dive into India’s history. In a four-part Series, we immerse ourselves in the complex net of human experiences that has shaped our world today. Manu Pillai, a best selling writer and one of India’s leading voices on historical academia, joins us for an intimate and thought provoking conversation. For every history buff out there, you don't want to miss out on this!
Chapters:
00:00:00 - 0:00:59 - Coming up
00:01:00 - 00:01:11 - Opening theme
00:01:12 - 00:02:31 - Conflicts in the past
00:02:32 - 00:06:29 - Casteism is an Indian issue
00:06:30 - 00:10:18 - Can you change your caste?
00:10:19 - 00:17:31 - Casteism in politics
00:17:32 - 00:26:36 - Historical figures and their take on caste
00:26:37 - 00:34:05 - Mughal rulers and their attitude towards different faiths
00:34:06 - 00:41:04 - It’s not an either-or situation, the right word is “And”
00:41:05 - 00:43:09 - Kings were violent and they needed to demonstrate violence
00:43:09 - 00:44:54 - Polarising Figures in Indian History: Mahmud Begada, Aurangzeb and more!
00:44:54 - 00:53:20 - The Indian North-South Divide: History and Political Repercussions
00:53:20 - 00:57:26 - How did Bengal Become the Cultural Hub of India?
00:57:26 - 1:07:49 - Historical Context Behind the Hindu-Muslim Conflicts in India
1:07:49 - 1:08:49 - Concluding Remarks
1:08:49 - 1:11:14 - Looking Back at the SparX History Series
1:11:14 - 1:11:59 - Outro
Follow us on Instagram: @sparxbymukeshbansal
Website: www.sparxbymuk...
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Fasion | Outbreak | Courtesy EpidemicSound.com

[@sparxbymukeshbansal]

For Book recommendations based on this episode go to: www.sparxbymukeshbansal.com/blog

[@beactivebehappy9894]

according to Bhagwa graduates, Caste is a British concept and Elizabeth was a gaur Brahman 🤣🤣

[@maheshdocherla]

Finally, a very reasoned discussion from Indians about India BUT still restricted from the speaker's experiential point of view. I agree with him that Ambedkar was far more intelligent, reasoned, realistic leader compared to Gandhi or Nehru BUT in the end, the fight took its toll on his mind and I feel he was fairly depressed and did not believe that his creation of the constitution would cause any change in Indian society. Also, completely agree with his argument on Tilak. Not just widow remarriage, he also supported child marriage. India's first woman doctor had to give up practice and enter politics because of Tilak, while the 2nd woman doctor faced a LOT of difficulties practicing even in a place like Mumbai.

[@robertroy4270]

Excellent podcast. We need more of this kind of impartial discussions on our history. Hopefully, India, my country, will not choose hatred over peaceful co-existence in this great Indian century.

[@anniasthamajius9927]

yeh until ur taken over by jihadies

[@roshanramesh7960]

Yeah we say no to radical islam😊

[@shijildamodharan2771]

Not podcast but a video interview

[@Elizabeth89755]

​@@roshanramesh7960whataboutery. This attitude won't benefit us, citizens.Yes. Radical Islam shouldn't be encouraged. But quit whining and take responsibility.

[@bhargavid2400]

Again an amazing podcast...was waiting for it eagerly but also sad its not going to continue. I want Manu to keep talking. Manu please start your own podcast or if I am under a rock and dont know it already exists please share. Haven't waited for any podcast as much as this. My love for history was evoked after all these years...thank you ❤

[@mukeshbansal3089]

Thanks for your inputs. Please suggest topics and maybe we will check with Manu later in the year for another series. I really enjoyed this series and talking about various nuances as well as lighter side of the history. India’s history is so rich that no amount of episodes will ever be enough!

[@bhargavid2400]

@@mukeshbansal3089 Absolutely its a wast topic but I specifically enjoyed the women history part which is not being spoken much.. thoroughly enjoyed that episode and shared it. I loved how he discussed all the nuances and also neutralized the topics by saying we should always see the event with different perspectives which a lot of podcasters and discussion miss out because they want history to lean on the side that they either are either left or right. Thank you for creating a great podcast 🌼🌼

[@aneevrao]

Mukesh, thank you for inviting Manu or these 4 episodes, and talking about subjects that are usually avoided :)

[@nilimadas9143]

Very interesting .Helps understand current complexities.

[@mamunurushankar3358]

Excellent! He has such a balanced view of history. He analysed the our problems with history as objectively as he can. More interestingly he makes it accessible and interesting. Recently I completed his opus " The Ivory Throne" . I have his other books on my Kindle. I will read them ofcourse. I request him to recommend a book on the history of Marathas. Only thing is it should in the class of The Ivory Throne or India after Gsndhi.

[@sparxbymukeshbansal]

Hi! Thank you for your feedback. Here are some book recommendations from Manu Pillai: 1. Among newer works, Shivaji: India's Great Warrior King by Vaibhav Purandare. 2. Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India by James W. Laine for understanding how Shivaji came to be understood over time. 3. Also check out older books from scholars like Jadunath Sarkar and G.S. Sardesai.

[@mamunurushankar3358]

Thank you . I have seen the first one on Amazon. I will buy that.

[@mangeshprabhu]

Love this history series and also love listening to Mr Pillai talk about history. He paints a picture of that very moment in time when he speaks about a particular historical event

[@akhoyhokha5072]

A very illuminating and balanced discourse on Indian history and cultural dynamics being actively played out even in modern day politics

[@drresmycr5554]

Excellent watch.. The depth of knowledge and communication skills of Manu S Pillai is commendable. Need more episodes like this

[@user-ts5dq2kk3m]

I like how he just refused to criticize and justified the islamic atrocities with a word called perspective 😂.... And 1 thing i don't understand is that how is tipu great?? People like librandus and Muslims say that he fought with Britishers that's why he is great.... So then an existing atrociter fighting another atrociter makes first atrociter great??😂😂

[@frost6471]

Iske jaise hi to convert hue the uss time😆

[@zgeorgem]

So much packed into an hour!

[@MegaAmohan]

THE SPEAKER GOES IN LENGTH TO RATIONALISE THE ACTION THE DEEDS OF TIPU AND AURANGZEB...PATHETIC AND HOW SAD

[@sreejar7996]

Another fantastic episode. Truly sad this conversation ended. Thanks for touching upon subjects that are usually swept under the carpet be it nuances of caste or religious harmony. Learned a lot from this series. Most important learning every time I listen to Manu is how one should dispassionately look at history without taking sides just with the curiosity to understand the sequence of events from a purely “stories of people who lived many years ago” point of view.

[@rockingishan12345]

This is one of the best podcast series all 4 episodes I have come across 🎉🎉

[@knoore]

Amazing conversation

[@meshivamsharma]

This is such an Excellent comversation ❤️

[@kalebj7001]

Wish this series had few more episodes.. it's very informative.. need more history related talks from such people

[@jaikrishnannair8282]

Dear sirs, i thank you for this very engaging conversation. I believe as human beings we are all subject to similar motivations, limitations, thoughts, aspirations and limitations. This is a common thread which binds us to our human experience. Your humility sir as a host is very well noted and appreciated. I do believe your stature in life (mr bansal) as brought upon a humility which is uncommon and by that i mean admirable. Thank you for these brilliant sessions please keep it going. Regards Jai

[@sureshlaxman8629]

Great stuff... Thanks 🙏

[@anu-gz5ht]

Very interesting

[@arnabkundu114]

Great episode ....thank u for doing an episode on this subject...many entrepreneurs will not risk it by talking on these subjects

[@madhavana8676]

Good

[@has4896]

BEFORE MUSLIMS RULERS CAME IN TO NORTH INDIA 1ST ARAB MUSLIMS BUSINESS PEOPLE TRAVELLED TO SOUTH INDIA MAINLY KERALA AND TAMILNADU 1400YEARS AGO 😊 KERALA HAS RECORDS OF, MUSLIMS, JEWS,CHRISTIANS, CHINESE, SYRIANS, AND ROMAN SEA TRAVELLERS 🎉🎉🎉

[@sandeeppunia3853]

Brahmins created caste system to have 100% reservation on education and social capital. Hindu religion = Brahmin religion = Caste system

[@mtarkes]

proof?

[@anonymouspersonbehind5354]

​@@mtarkes9th chapter 32 verse geeta casualy tells women vaiysays sudras are of sinfull birth And read manusmriti then u won't even comment

[@SB-rn4nc]

Time Stamps ??

[@sparxbymukeshbansal]

Hi! We've resolved this issue, thank you for pointing it out.

[@sankarankarakad7946]

History can make u laugh!

[@exerjiexerji289]

1:04:36 Is there any real equivalence/parity of the level of destruction and iconoclasm brought about by Muslim invaders/kings Vs what Hindu kings did in response? Also, can we not differentiate between idol breaking iconoclasm (even Portuguese did that) fury of monopolistic religions Vs looting temples off its riches alone?

[@i13pshita]

Excellent endeavour!...Keep up the great initiative @sparxbymukeshbansal....👏👏👏

[@nijoyjohn4366]

I can just go on and on listening to him.

[@rijulovarmenianairi6129]

In olden days pillai's used to fight with nairs..during the fall of ottoman Empire,nair brithya( servant) jana sangham was formed ( 1914)which include pillai also along with 163 other groups in kerala.

[@preethoo5]

We Indians console ourselves and call the Mughal rulers cruel - xenophobic. And they came from Uzbekistan. The native rulers should have been kind & caring of their subjects. Can you name the CEO of any Fortune 500 company in which all the employees unanimously vouch their CEO is a great human being?

[@bunty396]

Manu pillai is wrong to say that entire India always had a caste. The scheduled tribe and scheduled caste NEVER had a caste. In fact, they were outside Varna system and were termed “those who roam in jungles” and ati-shudras (untouchables) respectively. SC and ST were considered so impure that they could not even be REPRESENTED in any of the four Varnas. If they are outside the varna system, how can ST and SC have castes? So, not all Indians have caste and SCs are not called Dalits and are not Hindus.

[@nafeesahnaf2387]

My favourite historian.

[@daneilpatro2776]

cool ep

[@josychirackal2869]

Manu, what a talk. Thank you

[@euphoriabits]

Solid ! 🙌

[@user-wv1tr8ep1f]

31:49 wow. Using shia and sunni conflicts to make the conflicts between Muslims and Hindus look less extraordinary & not religious but political.

[@sreejar7996]

I can’t help but wonder how things such as parental mistakes in child’s upbringing and sibling rivalries have shaped the destinies of people in power and there by the whole nation(s). Only if Shah Jahan was a better dad, wonder how things would have been different. Its amazing to look at historical events from the lens of human psychology. Why people do things? What is their motivation etc and we can see nothing much has changed. It is the same insecurities, need for validation etc that seems to be the driving factors determining current affairs too. 😅

[@coastofkonkan]

India has more than 2 directions & not just north & South

[@maheshdocherla]

Parents & teachers should focus more on the Dharmic teachings rather than rituals & caste. That would mould every citizen towards uniform standards and that standard would not trouble other religions.

[@user-my9uj2pn7f]

Caste is not a indian phenomenal. It is a hindu Brahmin phenomenal..They were closed to kings and had power up to british rulers...they introduced caste system ... baghavad geetha - Manu and other vedic books justify Caste for last 1000 year. you are misguiding ..Please Read Tamilnadu Periyar books. Brahminism is the main reason of Caste. And Now RSS and Modi government rewriting the history.

[@farukchoudhury934]

Great discussion about India's diversity. Narendra Modi, RSS and BJP are using the diversity to divide and rule India. Today, it is religion - the Hindu/Muslim and caste divisions. Tomorrow. it will be north/South divide. Then will come linguistic divisions. The South and the Bengalis have very different attitudes to these diversity. If the Modi/RSS/BJP mob is not stopped, the division of India is inevitable as Barak Obama predicted.

[@kundankumar-eq3mc]

just like Congress did through appeasemet and vote bank policies to consolidate the votes of one community .same in the case of tmc DMK cpi etc keeps peaceful community feudal and gets all the votes .and we know which community divided India so don't play cards about diversity . you may hide the intention in small time frame but on a larger not your action is seen and judged and taken note of.

[@Bronsonnarrator]

Is Bangladesh part of Bengali diversity?

[@jeroldpereira2584]

Absolutely brilliant and most engaging.

[@maheshvenkataraman869]

Conveniently Tipu Sultan Massacre in Melkottai ( Tipu region) conveniently forgotten by your historian friend, he knows more of Kerala and very specific incident of other regions

[@gyadre]

Baktiar Kilji was general who decimated Nalanda, Vikramshila etc. Although Muslim did the physical destruction but Brahman beginning with Adi Shankarcharya destroyed Buddhism by claiming that Buddha is 8th reincarnation of Vishu.

[@sreenathgopinathan4002]

Buddhist kings like Kanishka have done an autocratic rule and done much violence against the Hindus. Hindus especially Brahmins have historically faced repressions from the hands of the Buddhist Sangams

[@praz7]

@@sreenathgopinathan4002 But people like Abhijit Chavda will keep glorifying him.

[@CoconutDiaries]

Many temples in Kerala still have the remains of their Buddhist past.

[@annievarkey3071]

This difference among the Christians has vanished now.the lower strata have progressed because of education and secularism.now we don’t see much difference.marriages are very common now among the various churches.people see only education,a decent life and a good job.

[@zgeorgem]

I am from Syrian Christian community. Got mildly offended there. But it is what it is. 3:23

[@Humanzee]

“Syrian Christians always sat apart from Catholics & other Christian communities, always looking down up on them” If you know what i mean !!!

[@rijulovarmenianairi6129]

Syrian Christians,Nair's,thiyyas,bunts all have j2 haplogroup above 30% in kerala....j2 haplogroup originated from Anatolian/turkey/ mesopotami region.

[@Humanzee]

@@rijulovarmenianairi6129 whatever we claim to be we are, we are still Dravidians. (ASI) And our genetic ancestry is of Iranian hunter gatherers or neolithic farmers. But we made our divergence from our ancestral population well before 20k years, and is actively living in Indian subcontinent for 10k years. But Kerala population compared to other Dravidian population especially has greater admixtures of East asian, middle eastern & AASI genetics. Basically true blood we all claim to be are not true blood after all.

[@rijulovarmenianairi6129]

@@Humanzee all the coastal regions states have more j2 haplogroup due to arrival of mesopotami invaders( amar armenia nairi,akbar turkey,Antony Syria) ..hehe

[@Humanzee]

@@rijulovarmenianairi6129 What you said is unfortunately false. The only invasion/migration that happened into India subcontinent was by Hindu Aryans coming from Central Asia (originally Ukraine) sharing European genetic pool. But that’s North Indians !! There’s been admixture in Dravidians (Ancestral South Indians) but happened out of coexistence, not any invasions.

[@exerjiexerji289]

33:58 So, in short, Islamic Kings (more than those from other religions) showing propensity to return back to 'fundamentals' had always been problem for others. What's the problem with calling Aurangazeb as a bigot.

[@Bronsonnarrator]

He has to appease his friends

[@user-uv5kc8pg5k]

Sir hindi m bhi bhej do

[@suppiahmurugesan8343]

Anglicised Bengal was also the source of freedom fighters.

[@jacobsylas-fq3kg]

Manu his name pillai..degree from college....

[@prabhakaramrs5508]

I think they shall read 'Jati, Varna and Caste' book, written by Rajiv Malhotra and Vijaya Viswanathan before discussing and concluding on caste system.

[@sankarankarakad7946]

Comment on tippu sultan is interesting

[@has4896]

CASTE IS TO GET SEPARATED FROM A GROUP,,"CASTAWAY " THE RED INDIANS OF AMERICA FROM THE STONE AGE KEPT ON DEVELOPING THEIR CLOSE FAMILY MEMBERS IN ALL HUNTING,FISHING, EATING GOOD TASTEY FOODS,FOOD PRESERVATION 😊THEN THE FITTEST STEPED OUT OF OLD FAMILY GROUP 😊BUT IN OUR INNOCENT INDIA BEFORE MUSLIMS RULERS AND BRITISH RAJ CAME, HOW WHERE WE,😊GOLDEN ERA🎉🎉🎉

[@ABO-Destiny]

India was never a country ,it can remain a country only with very liberal federal structure, trying to engineer into one single country and ignore the diversities will backfire, and at least the founding indians knew that, however subsequently communities which got more power did not respect that diversity and that is very natural for indians as well as most other people of the world.

[@sundareshanal1849]

Raja Ram Mohan Roy needs to be studied and even investigated. His beseechingthe Brits for doing away with support to Sanskrit, his dalliance with Christianity and much more has got away uncritically accepted. The Sati thing is grossly exaggerated and the Brits loved the narrative of cultural degradation of Hindus based on a nation wide , culture wide practice of Sati which is plain and malevolent rubbish. RRM's Sanskrit scholarship as claimed here is also extremely suspect.

[@lembubodoh]

😂

[@roshanramesh7960]

Muslims have shia and sunii. Inside sunni there is shafi,malikki,hanafi, hanabali then there are divisions inside this also.

[@kamalbnukhalidkamalbnukhal1358]

ബ്രോ അതിൽ വിശ്വാസങ്ങളുടെ യും ആശയങ്ങളുടെയും വ്യത്യാസം ആണ്. But ഇത് മനുഷ്യരെ വേർതിരിച്ചു കാണുന്നതാണ് ( വ്യത്യാസം പറഞ്ഞു എന്ന് മാത്രം )

[@roshanramesh7960]

@@kamalbnukhalidkamalbnukhal1358 bro njmde keralathil mathrame angane. All other states barelvi are fighting with deoband and many other fights are happening. I'm not Trying to demean Islam but every religion has their own problems and we should discuss about it openly

[@discomallu9769]

They also have pasmanda ( ajlaf,arzal) Vs Ashraf division which is based on race & feudalism. Please read.

[@ansals1]

​@@roshanramesh7960 താങ്കൾ പറഞ്ഞത് ഒന്നും മുസ്‌ലിം ജാതികളല്ല . എന്നാൽ ഇന്ത്യൻ മുസ്ലിങ്ങളിൽ ജാതിയുണ്ട്. കൺവെർട്ട് ആയവരെ ക്രിസ്ത്യൻ/മുസ്ലിം ആയാലും അവർ വന്ന ജാതിയുടെ പേരിൽ വേർതിരിവ് ഉണ്ട്. ബ്രാഹ്മണരിൽ നിന്ന് മതം മാറിയവരാണങ്കിൽ അവരുടെ തലമുറക്ക് പ്രിവിലേജ് ഉണ്ട് .എന്നാൽ മറ്റു ജാതികളിൽ നിന്നാണങ്കിൽ മാറ്റി നിർത്തലും അവഹേളിക്കലും ഉണ്ട്.

[@dhanapalktdhanu7906]

ഒരു മനുഷ്യന്ന് അറിയുവാൻ ഒരു പേര് പോരെ പിന്നെ എന്തിനാണ് വാല് വെക്കുന്നത് ആ വാലിൽ ആണ് ജാതി അത് എടുത്തു കളയുക അപ്പോൾ എല്ലാം മനുഷ്യ ഗണം പിന്നെ പഠിപ്പ് നോക്കി വേണം എല്ലാം

[@gappauch]

Shut up guys...

[@coastofkonkan]

Caste needs to be seen from Anthropological perspective.

[@nimi8386]

How ?

[@praz7]

Remove it from social system, delete it from future coming hindu scriptures and constitution. That's how you remove it.

[@narasimhanvangalkrishnaswa3028]

Usual left liberal approach to history.

[@anonymouspersonbehind5354]

Lol liberal approach is the best aproach And there is no left aproach 😂 he is writer no lawyer who speaking in English speaking history nor a pm who doesn't even know to read but knows lot of history from whatsaap university

[@rajendradangi2585]

He is historian so can't take into account diverse factors into account. Bro Afghanistan Pakistan and b'desh plus Muslim in North India. Why the fk ppl shud talk about islam from South perspective South has minuscule Muslim pop. compare to North Indian subcontinent. Regular raid invasion destruction killing rape by islamic forces is in a way identity of North.

[@CoconutDiaries]

Thats the very attitude that drives South away from North. For you only your history matters. If you gonna say we should stand on your pov because we are all Indians, better forget the history before independence. You cant selectively bring past to our present

[@tsMuthuraman-hm6wg]

@@CoconutDiaries And for you only your hindi matters !

[@suppiahmurugesan8343]

Agreed, Islam spread in the South relatively peacefully. But in the North the conversion was deadly and violent.

[@bipinhemam]

There are two types of people in India. 01: People who want to see India break up into pieces. They like to talk about untouchability and caste system, dalits and Attack Hinduism and Brahmins 02: And people who has a deep connection with this land and wants to preserve the history, culture and language that our forfathers gave us which the West calls Hinduism. I belong to the second group.

[@CoconutDiaries]

Apparently there is a third group, who shut their eyes to entire history and present and say they are simply great. Break the shell of your caste first, and you would know how it feels from the other side.

[@tsMuthuraman-hm6wg]

Do you say untouchability is a lie story like ramayana / mahabhratha ?

[@coastofkonkan]

Maharashtra, the land that reformed India

[@Humanzee]

Is that what you gathered from the video ? I got different version though !! the one that sucked up to British, got their jobs & divided Indians for them. Invented “Hindutva”, created the Hindu-Muslim divide; all in aid of British for smooth admiration of India. And most importantly carried those filthy “Hindutva” ideas into modern India.

[@nsha4535]

That's why they are called sycophants of British

[@Bronsonnarrator]

​@@Humanzee hindutva is the reactionary to Islam. If hindutva is filthy, Islam is the source of that filth. What is the term for Islam? Lol

[@prasunpandey7223]

read jai sai deepak

[@kirovmedia6972]

Lol🤣

[@roshanramesh7960]

Sai the best

[@arnabkundu114]

why don't u read it first...I am sure most fans of JSD has not read a single word that he has written....that's why they can't come up with an argument of their own...they only say read him , follow him and stuff like that....

[@roshanramesh7960]

@@arnabkundu114 then who should we read arundathi roy and irfan habib

[@diyar8161]

​@@roshanramesh7960u can't say Sai is neutral. He is extremely right leaning. See pple who like right leaning ideology will follow sai and left or neutral will not

[@aryaaJyoti]

A typical PhD scholar from England. Same old understanding of India....Caste of India ( Never mentioned it was British creation!!!-- How can He? Scholar from London)--- More takeaways --Not all mughals are bad, Hindu kings are equally bad too, Tipu sulatan just a politician ---Never understood why does all the time since bristisher --- all these scholar have same affinitiy towards Islamic tyrant and why particuarly Hindu and Hindu kings are at fault all the time??? Thought first may be this guys might have more accurate view---but very disappointing.

[@vikramsivakumar2943]

Read first, with proper evidences and than criticize. We are open to hear your criticism if you produce something with proper evidence which he's doing by citing proper sources

[@arnabkundu114]

the problem with people like you is ...that u want to listen to only that side of history which fits ur narrative ...u don't want to listen to a holistic and unbaised version of history because for that u need to have an open mind to accept something which might go against ur biases....so that's why u r nothing but a troll

[@neelanj6375]

Lol British creation 😀😂😁🤣

[@StilsLil]

Was Manusmriti written by British?

[@bodhisattva6308]

@@StilsLilmanusmrithi written by manu and Quran are the words of Muhammad. Both are Plainly words of people.