Speakers Corner - SaRa further comments after discussion with Shabir

Speakers Corner - SaRa offers further comments after discussion with Shabir.
Original discussion between SaRa and Shabir:
• Shabir Yusuf vs Sara |...

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Hurt Muslims all over KZbin... Voting down videos, slandering me in the comments section on every video. The hate is real! 😂 I've touched a nerve...

[@alltruthreveals9705]

They because your a Don Gargon

[@zellak-pr7pu]

Well done Sa Ra......you beat Shabir with logic.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

He defeated himself by not answering the question and trying to sound smart.

[@tonedtokill7531]

He actually answered the question honestly with his views, which was made very clear to me; and his points: - Can you prove the list you brought forward is valid? - He agreed there wasn't clear historical evidence from his knowledge of Moses (peace be upon him) - He said that he can witthold judgement on topics within the Qur'aan (so as to better understand them i'm guessing) as the Qur'aan says to go and find out more (and in turn those findings will prove the Qur'aan more) I don't see what all this fuss was about when his points were made very clear.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Bilal... You can't claim something to be a fact without all the evidence. Muslims me claim the Quran to be a fact.

[@tonedtokill7531]

You definitely know the answer to that, that's what's so upsetting about how you're handling this. You know the Islamic stance on why the Qur'aan is from God, hence why everything in it is from God according to that stance. Wittholding "judgement" (please do go define that word) is not "rejecting" the words of God. His views are his views. I don't see "ballshit" in his view, they were logical responses. And on the contrary to how you and the atheist have escalated the simple discussion, his responses were actually calming the situation (between you and the previous Muslim before Shabir on the topic), he also did not dismiss your input or argument, meaning he did not even attempt to belittle you, but accepted your input as valid yet you still resorted to calling him a liar and mocking him afterwards. Why all the name calling and backbiting on Shabir's view is beyond me. An atheist and you recording each other belittling & mocking him right after a discussion, there are no kind words to describe that immaturity, it's really upsetting and degrading to the spirit of discussion and debate. And again I repeat, his views are his own and he shared them as best he could (clear as day to me when I was listening), I don't see how you are struggling so much to understand such simple concepts coming from him.

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

"with logic" you mean special pleading, appeal to ridicule, ad homs, false analogies ?

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

This debate seems to have caused quite a stir among you Muslims. More so than any other debate Shabir has had. And the reason why it's caused such stir is because deep down they know he lost. They were confident he "Won" all his other debates. But they know he was exposed with this one. So continue to defend him... But deep down you know the fact is he lost.

[@tonedtokill7531]

The only problem I see with the debate was how you resorted to calling him a liar several times without investigating the verse in the Qur'aan that he brought on him being able to witthold judgement. You turned clear points he was making, like if you could prove the list you were referring to can be proven valid, into ad homenim attacks and insults towards him instead.

[@kaleelurrahamanzakeer3958]

A right hook to the man who calls other's liar without reviewing the evidence P.S it is a metaphorical Right hook

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

The black guy is committing special pleading fallacy thus his argument is invalid. I will highlight how he is committing special pleading fallacy once I see none on this thread being able to highlight it, so for now I will leave it to you guys. Remember I can objectively prove that this guy position is fallacious!

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Arshad... Are you saying its ok to claim something with no evidence?

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

Sa Ra Garvey nope, all I said so far is that this guy is doing special pleading fallacy. I didn't explain that though but I think you know formal/informal logic and how historical truths fit inside it you will see that this guy is just doing special pleading.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

No Moses? No argument!

[@liamsasylum4020]

Throw back

[@thetrintarianmessianicyahw589]

Hey why doesn't Egypt record a Single one of there Defeats?

[@elliot7205]

What? Throw out the baby with bath water then? Shabir made it clear in law you can hold to opposing views as a rebuttal presumption? You do no what that means?

[@DoctorKillamassaLOGS]

great video....Shabir is a really good actor.

[@alibeatz2170]

What Sa Ra fails to realise what Shabir said was if ALL the evidence has been verified then you can say the Moses story will be fake, but has all the evidence been found, the answer is NO.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Why would you make a claim without all the evidence? 🤔

[@abbasali636]

can sa ra proof the name of his grand grand grand grandfather name with evidence like I will say I'd r something like that?

[@footballmania423]

go to your house and keep crying while you watch wikilies , btw change your name , muhammed is too innocent to see people like you using his name as your name

[@footballmania423]

***** yes boring , your illogical brain is boring

[@alibeatz2170]

+Sa Ra Garvey Say that to the court when the claimant is asking for time to get more evidence.

[@ayoubidhssaine8968]

Rob, you have exaggerated this me. Why the fuck do you talk behind shabir's back you did it twice and that is not ok you are doing your best to make him look like a liar in people's eyes seriously what u are doing is not cool I'll let him know about that.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

But he is a liar 👀

[@mihailomikel3341]

No, his point was that if there is no EMPIRICAL evidence for or AGAINST a case one ought to uphold his/her judgement. The Quran ITSELF is EVIDENCE for the event through the FALSIFICATION test. You were not AWARE of this, so im your daddy now and i suggest you to be more humble and learn xD

[@jasonleaf9855]

SA RA is way too smart. i want to meet him someday

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Jason Leaf 👊🏿

[@a.3160]

@@SaRaGarvey2012 please lower your ego

[@evo-yt]

Sa Ra went off on one, when Shabir was simply saying we don't know everything - we're still discovering things even now. We know there are parts of the pyramids that we can't even access. What is to say what is hidden within? Just as the list of Pharoah's may not be fully complete, nor can we say the historical evidence is complete. I mean, look, they only very, very recently what the cause of Tutankamun's potential death was, and he is one of the most infamous of them all. In 2013, there was overwhelming evidence that he died from injuries from a Chariot. But only a year later, they're suggesting that may not be the case. A year later, evidence suggested he died from genetic impairments. We're clearly learning new things all the time and what could be sound one day, could be cast aside the next. Sa Ra then went on to say that Shabir was lying when Shabir simply stated that, he, for the purposes of the discussion, was witholding judgement. He jumped from what was an example to jumping on his high horse to insinuate that Shabir was lying. Shabir even said that he agreed with what Sa Ra was pointing out, but that there was a crucial flaw in his assertion. It was horrible watching how Sa Ra was behaving as Shabir just stood there in amazement.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Is it logically possible to withhold judgement on something while saying its a fact?

[@mohuzz100]

+Sa Ra Garvey yeah if the book is saying go out and research to prove this story is fact. Our belief is that it is fact off course as we have evidentially proved it from the numerous examples of miracles that the quran claims ( which you will ignore ) e.g description of the development of embryo in its mothers womb ( not known until about 100 years ago ) how does a 1400 year old book know this, maybe cos it's fro, the creator? you haven't even study the quran or read it? If your truthful you will study the quran properly or you will ignore my invitation because you are not.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

+naqeeb hussain you haven't proved anything. These "miracles" aren't miracles. You don't have all the information

[@suhelmiah2184]

+Sa Ra Garvey You haven't proved anything. The king's list is not full list. you don't have all the information

[@teefx5681]

ha ha ha no brave enough to challenge shabir face to face

[@drzakir123]

when they were discussing it appear they are almost jealous of him and frustrated why they r not making much progress with shabir becos he was challenging them on every preconceived biases they got.and trust me its not a easy process to face oneself

[@drzakir123]

***** i will let u know of Ayesha [ra] age when i find the birth certificate of her.at the moment there is a lot of controvery about her age which ppl claiming anywhere from 6 to 21 yrs.so u will choose according to ur bias

[@teefx5681]

truth ***** she was not 9 she was 18, but they will never except that cause it does not fit they're arguments

[@drzakir123]

Abu Eesa age is quite variable brother from 9 to 21yrs but again it is a least concern of mine becos doesn't discuss it at all. before 1906 nobody bother about it as well.its only since 1906 they start to write about it becos of politics and world domination fantasies

[@drzakir123]

***** i think prophet mohammed peace and blessing be upon him actually liberated many slaves and make it a pious activity to release the slaves.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Exclusive backstage after the fight footage 😂

[@evo-yt]

Bravo. 🙄

[@moharufus6111]

Did you eat breakfast yesterday? Not having this written down ABSOLUTELY has no effect on the nature of your diet yesterday. Not every historical account is WRITTEN down, and the Abrahamic religions believe in the EXODUS because of scripture. You CANNOT prove or disprove that a group of slaves once ran away from Egypt. Claiming something is WRONG while at the same time acknowledging you do NOT know all the FACTS is a flawed argument that is not based on RATIONALITY I'm afraid.

[@evo-yt]

***** You're a moron.

[@moharufus6111]

***** Ad hominem is a coward response. You are clearly a product of a SEX obsessed world. I wonder how EMPTY such a human who thinks like this is. I'll advise you to visit a PSYCHIATRIC hospital because this VULGARITY is abnormal.

[@muhammadrufai6887]

+Iqbal Mohamed So now all of a sudden you are rational. Kudos. It still remains that you have shown you are a sick individual. Marriage and rape are 2 separate and distinct things. The prophet did marry a 9 year old because 1000 years ago, maturity occurs earlier. Plus the woman must be consulted, and consummation must not occur if it might harm the woman. This is because the Quran forbids harming oneself. The marriage occurred when she was 6, but consummated while she was 9. Her hair had to fall and grow back again before she was deemed matured enough at the time. This shows they were not the savages you think they are. The greatness of prophet Muhammad (SAW) is evident in the fact that someone like you who is disgusted with his actions still carries his name. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

[@craik7]

Surely didn't expect this coming from you, Rob. Quite disappointing.

[@MVPBarberLounge]

Sara is the truth

[@petrainjordan7838]

HEADLINE : Batman meets Penguin in Park Lane.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Is that your claim? 😄 What evidence do you have to back that claim? 😂👊🏿

[@petrainjordan7838]

Sa Ra Garvey Hahaha...You're not sayin its impossible are you ?

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

+Colin Patterson I'm just saying you made the claim with no evidence but the claim! Can you verify the claim? 😂

[@petrainjordan7838]

+Sa Ra Garvey Well since my claim is possible then its actual right? Lol You've heard this argument recently and you still don,t get it! Lol Headline : Batman Meets Penguin in Park Lane...Yes and I will post evidence for MY claim here based on the video record.

[@petrainjordan7838]

Regrettably, and Respectfully, Shabir runs into a number of problems including 1. Undue confidence in Linguistic Magic - Eg "You're ABSOLUTELY right BUT you are just saying what WE just said" 2. Superimposing Actuality on Possibility - Eg in the talk about "Suspending Judgement" 3. Failure to respect Order of Argument - Eg note the rebuff given "The Book claimed it FIRST" 4. Slippages in locating burden of proof - Eg "We are discussing over what YOUR claim is" ( Shabir) and the general and repeated reply "You are not going to try and flip it on me" WE look forward to the next encounter. From Hyde Park.

[@ronnthebigchiefron3914]

its a very dangerous thing to think you know but you don't sa ra believes he is smarter than he actually is, as for the guy filming he is a coward he debated shabir twice and he was humbled. i believe him&sa ra are intellectually intimidated by shabir

[@isha6804]

Intimidated? Really? Did you see the debate? I really do not think it is fair or accurate at all to say Sa was intimated. Even if you disagree with his position, he held his own, and defended his position with reason and logic.

[@ronnthebigchiefron3914]

yes i seen the debate he was clearly emotional &his reason &logic was flawed because he asked sabir to prove the quran to be correct ,the muslim position is the quran is the verbatim speech of Allah so from shabir points of view he doesn't have to prove anything sa ra made a counter claim with incomplete information which admitted that everything is not known about Egyptian history remember sa ra claimed he gets his info from the National geographic anybody that study ancient civilizations know that information is subject to change due to discovery that why shabir said withhold judgment

[@isha6804]

Ronn the big chief ron I must be raised differently. The term emotional these days gets pushed around if a person gets upset. Do you ever get upset in an argument, frustrated? People are not stones. Now Shabir has a different style....he does not show emotion but he can be sarcastic and condescending. Did you miss that with his remarks like "I know this is difficult for you." So why do we excuse that as not being "emotional?" Why is it that an stoic person can be condescending and patronizing but as long as they are stoic we excuse it? Really? Are you aware that different cultures behave differently? The Brits are known for being Stoic. I was born there so I know. It is praised that one does not show emotion because we are brainwashed into that mindset. Have you seen an Italian debate? Africans? They are loud, interrupt etc. To a Brit that is rude and emotional......... What Shabir did not do up front was to state how the Quran teaches a person on questioning the book. He should have said upfront what you said. He did not do that. He baited him then he was disparaging. Sa mentioned that TV to show that we get information on Egypt often.........wow. He did not say in the clip that this is where he got it from. It can and is something that you could google and it is know that there is a Kings list. It is known in the Nile Valley culture or those or know something about that area. It should be understood that non Muslims are not bound by the laws of logic the Quran says that Muslims must use. So one cannot force that on someone else can you? I do not think that if I make a claim about you, let us say I knew you and said you stole my Rolex that you would have to prove you did not. It is for me to go the police and provide evidence, or reasonable evidence to make you a suspect. That is reasonable and logical. Why is that unreasonable? Sa is not a Muslim evidently so, he is not bound by the logic that the Quran demands of a Muslim

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

+Isha this "emotional" thing is a deflection. Shabir got exposed Simple. A win is a win... Whether you claim it's an emotional win, a calculated win, an educated win or whatever...

[@isha6804]

Sa Ra Garvey You stood your ground with reason and logic. As far as I was concerned you put Shabir on the ropes. I like Shabir, but this time I question his "approach." Yes of course it is a deflection.

[@tonedtokill7531]

This is all very immature. I enjoyed the views shared in the debate, but the emotions involved and the constant dismissal of the clearly expressed views of Shabir is an upsetting watch.

[@dsyed2413]

The shabir guy dismantled and destroyed the sa ra guy without him understanding it,, shabir guy explained it logically , rationally but sa ra guy logic cant work his explanation,,,sad that sara always lose , shabir guy has my attention now,,,well done shabir an example for humanity to learn from you

[@DC-wp6oj]

As a muslim I'm actually interested in wanting to hear what SaRa has to say. But all i got was shouting and confusion. What exactly is his belief and why is he so interested in muslims and Islam???

[@garywood9525]

You must be new here. Muslims roam SC to push their way into a debate or just attack non-muslims as liars in a false religion. They love to do dawah until they see how islam is imploding from its own lies ....that's when they get insulting to call people ignorant or islamophobes .

[@paolomaldini6398]

ur just a hypocrite , he wanted to say hold a judgement ,coz u came up with the court example , means the claim is there ,we cannot prove it to be right or wrong , so he holds a judgement until proven true or false , but you are the one that came with a list of 10 kings and you cannot prove and verify any of them ,from there when you knew u were already defeated and your example of a "court" didn't work you turned to a clueless person accusing Shabir of a lier for no reason ,the only reason you were doing that is to find your escape cauz u were going nowhere with this debate ,shouting and telling him ur a lier doesn't make you any smarter .

[@Shabin_Zubair]

Sir, You are an educated man and honest truth seeker and I don't want you to speak bad of anyone.. (I am upset seeing negative comments about you as well ). Let's not get personal

[@yesyoureright]

that black guy clearly doesn't understand simple logic and sentences I can't believe he's still talking about something that i even understood and honestly I'm not the best at following these things fully. it's his very own logic shabir used on him. and he still doesn't get it. lol

[@isha6804]

This is what we have.The Quran as per Brother Shabir instructs that if a person is saying what the Quran teaches or shows in error, the Muslim does not have the burden to prove anything. It is the person saying "this is wrong."So Shabir as he is devout Muslim is upholding that edict. So that is why he asks Sa to prove that the Quran is wrong.This is not a bait and switch at all.What Shabir could have said up front was that "we do not have to prove the Quran, you (Sa) have to disprove it.

[@hmdchy]

Mohamed 56 Aisha 9 I don't know what is dumper, your irrelevant comments, or the name. Anyways, I sympathize with your mentality.

[@elliot7205]

Shabir made it clear which some intellects cannot grasp respectfully in law especially court rooms you can hold 2 opposing views!! I know it's a shock to the layman but it's called a rebuttal presumption nothing special.🥱🥱

[@paolomaldini6398]

By the way Quran isn't the only book claiming that .

[@mohuzz100]

ask him to prove his counter claim he is a confused guy he's own friends believe in moses story they guy has a cross around his neck. shabbir destroyed both of you he is a debater if you can't match his debating skills don't debate him. truth is this sa ra guy is confused. ask him what he believes

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

A cross around his neck? 😂 It's an Ankh. You people are something else.

[@simonmatthews7072]

Christian Rob and SaRa sitting on a. tree.. lalalalala. Does the argument not stand for Christianity. Rob what a joke.

[@wachm3]

Poor Sara, feathers all ruffled :(

[@wachm3]

***** Is that what his enemies at that time called him?

[@wachm3]

***** You're being emotional. It was a simple question, can you not answer it?

[@iqbalx786]

are you feeling allwright??

[@wachm3]

***** And yet im the one trying to reason with.

[@hmdchy]

The story happened, the prove is the body of Pharaoh. Rob .. I don't know what is the point to talk behind someone ' back! And Sara proves nothing except that Shabir had him very will to the point that he cannot stop talking about this topic, maybe he need to provide some "evidence" of him talking with his ancestors.

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

No Hamad, there are claims by Maurice Bucaille that Merneptah (not Ramesses II) was the pharaoh that is supposed to have been killed while pursuing Moses during the Exodus. Here is a brief summary of other experts views who attempted to confirm Bucaille's findings: "Apart from Bucaille - who at the time of his examination of the mummy was employed as the family physician to King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and was also treating President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, as well as being well into his infamous treatise on Islam and science - no one has ever suggested that either mummy showed signs of drowning or even a violent death. The other Egyptologists who who studied the mummies with Bucaille disagreed profoundly with his conclusions and appear to have been a little frustrated with his obsession"

[@hmdchy]

I understand your point, and I want to have your comment in the following: How can Muhammed talk about this event (pharaoh) and say something completely against the bible (that the body would be an example for people) and what the reason? Please tell me what do you think about this verse: "Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it...." (Quran, 24:40) Muhammed had never seen the sea, yet he mentioned it and give an example that we can test nowadays, it is now known that if you go down in the sea it get so dark that it is impossible for you to see your own hand. Another example that I want your opinion on: "..When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who have no faith" (Qur'an, 6:125) This is suggest that when people go up in a certain level there will be no oxygen to breathe and their chests will be constricted.

[@hmdchy]

I noticed that you are doing your best to say " We don't know" "know one knows" "we cannot know" ..etc. Following your way of thinking will lead you to nothing but confusion, you have the Quran, read it and examine it, because talking about singularity and how God create or why God did X instead if Z would never give you a satisfying answer. I really hope that one day you would be specific and discuss a verse in the Quran that you can test its validity.

[@elliot7205]

What is your obsession rob if you dont mind me asking? Do you disagree with the quran or islam as a hole if so why specifically? Would love a genuine decent discussion which you know is rare these days.

[@elliot7205]

Is the quran a scientific text book?what does it actually claim, since you mention I'm sure you can quote the verse and surah?

[@ronnthebigchiefron3914]

Trust me i totally get what u r saying i have seen sa ra in many debates and yes being in contrast to shabir he seems extra so your point is valid, but keep in mind this is no t sa ra first interaction with sahbir and the conversation was not this animated.

[@wiilwaal4224]

This guy with the female name called Sara is less intelligent then i thought,

[@isha6804]

Seems as though might want to check your intelligence. His name is Sa Ra. Not Sara or Sarah..........lol You might want to google it too.

[@wiilwaal4224]

my x wif's name was like that sorry

[@isha6804]

Wiil Waal Ok I hope I was not harsh. I apologize if I was. However it might be a good idea to check these things first before?

[@wiilwaal4224]

ok sorry i am upset the guy's behavior, i am to smart for this and balabala bulshit and he is one the dumbest in speaker's coner talking about we all came from black people and thinks like that. dont get me wrong i myself black but why should i care about that.

[@isha6804]

Wiil Waal What did Sa say that was illogical. Can you break it down? Even if you are upset. I am not sure where you are from, but in my culture, we speak like that. It is cultural........you are trying to tell the person....."do I look like an idiot to you?" The English have a saying "are you trying the pull the wool over my eyes?" It means the same thing. It is not a boast it just means "you cannot fool me."

[@realdeal332]

go watch rob vs sabboor. rob gets man handled.

[@tanweerahmed9412]

would like to see some comments from Shabir on this disscusion.

[@colelife5092]

sure 😕

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

Yes I tried to speak with Shabir, but he had to leave so he didn't have time to discuss.

[@tonedtokill7531]

_"Speakers Corner UK":_ What time did you approach him? He generally leaves at about the same time for the days he makes the 200+ mile travel to Speakers Corner. I think it would be good to take note of it if you wish to engage with him. Or is it that perhaps mocking him in videos after he's left is what suits your taste now.

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

No-one is mocking Shabir, if anything so errors in the conversation are being pointed out or discussed. I hope to speak with Shabir next time he and I are both down at Speakers Corner on the same day and I will be sure to record it so everyone can view and comment.

[@tonedtokill7531]

I hope to see that discussion as well. However, what I'm seeing from this video, and what the discussion is referring to, is unfairness, rudeness and mockery. If you think misrepresenting someone and constantly calling them a liar without fairly understanding their view first as not rude, then you're free to it. And if you think constantly belittling someone's approach (and putting blame based on it) to discussion and debate as not mockery, then you're also free to that as well. I'm free to take what I'm seeing as unfairness, rudeness and mockery. I hold no grudges nor do I agree with everything Shabir says, because I don't follow any person blindly, I'm simply upset at what I'm seeing take place in Speakers Corner and how matters seem to be developing.

[@AbdulSamad-ur6jf]

Shabbir is right when he said you're confused man. In Most of the video you look confused and pretending to be smart by praising yourself ,my smart I'm smart

[@AllTruthRevealed]

PBWY. We still await your claim that Shabir lied and to date you have not been able to provide that evidence. Sa Ra seems to be the same, he accused Shabir of being a liar because he was not respectfully intelligent enough to understand Shabir. Evidence for that is the video where all he could do is name call Shabir and was completely shut to the reasoning. That is however expected from atheists/others.

[@AllTruthRevealed]

PBWY. We have already stated you can run but you cannot hide despite the psychological issues you may have. We still await evidence.

[@AllTruthRevealed]

PBWY. Yet more hilarity! A simple request - Please provide specific evidence of where Shabir lied.

[@AllTruthRevealed]

PBWY. Hilarious. It seems atheists/others are very good at proffering accusations, insults and being rude (SA RA another example) but do not have the capacity to proffer evidence and thereafter assess the same logically, rationally and reasonably. We have kindly noted that many are desperately trying to defeat Shabir and since that is not happening by the grace of the Creator you and in this case SA RA are left with what you are good at - Insults, accusations and being rude to which you are more than welcome. Thanks for the laugh. BTW we still await specific evidence of where Shabir lied.

[@AllTruthRevealed]

PBWY. Yet again hilarious. The fact is that no one has defeated Shabir by the grace of the Creator and your constant need to remind yourself about Shabir is indicative of the truth of our stance. What is outrageously funny is that your post is seeking evidence and we have requested the same for many many months yet nothing. We may well question whether you understand what words mean. We can however suggest that you perhaps become Shabir's student so that you can discuss the adducing of evidence and its assessment logically, rationally and reasonably. Tut tut! we still await specific evidence of where Shabir lied.

[@evo-yt]

@sa ra, of course it is. Judges have to put their preconceptions to one side all the times and go by the facts presented. It's why so many people that are obviously guilty get away due to lack of evidence. You don't have to be a judge to not have your own view influence a train of thought. We wouldn't have science if we did that now would we? You went off on one and it was just horrible to watch you. You probably didn't even take in the fact that Shabir even agreed with your train of thinking.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

What evidence do you have of all the claims in the Quran?

[@mihailomikel3341]

The FALSIFICATION test. Find me ONE mistake in the Quran and you will be the FIRST person in 1400 years to find a discrepancy in the Quran. Go ahead and walk the talk and avoid the hit and run opinions which makes you look like a fish outside the water.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

You can't make a claim with no evidence. Prove your claim or stfu!

[@evo-yt]

Still an angry man? You need to calm down a bit.

[@mihailomikel3341]

Evo Fraction and now + Sa Ra Garvey went quiet after i showed him his FIRST conversation with Shabir whereby he AGREED that one can ACCEPT the exsistence of something without the need to SEE it. He also AGREED that the next logical step is to INVESTIGATE a claim from all ''beliefs''. He is now contradicting everything he said in the FIRST conversation with Shabir. It didnt took long for him to dug himself into a squared triangle...

[@yssrevolution8530]

If you fair you will get shabir's side of his arguments in the near future

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

Yes I intend to for sure. Hopefully we are both there at the end of September and I will give him full opportunity to put his side.

[@saldin6334]

+Speakers Corner UK I respect that.

[@isha6804]

Yes I agree it would be nice if Shabir responds. I am "holding judgement.....lol..........but I do not think he will respond......

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

The black guy is committing special pleading fallacy thus his argument is invalid. I will highlight how he is committing special pleading fallacy once I see none on this thread being able to highlight it, so for now I will leave it to you guys. Remember I can objectively prove that this guy position is fallacious!

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

Do go ahead, I think you'll find no-one else will highlight it.

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

Well I highlighted it on Sa Ra thread, let me paste it here :) Thank you Kaleelur, let me point out how it is special pleading fallacy. Sa Ra: I don't beleive in moses pbuh because there is no evidence Me: there is. Sa ra: really ? well where is it ? Me: the same evidence which you and the whole world use to believe in soron, hamurabi, plato, aristotle etc That evidence is called "testimonial evidence", be it in hieroglyphs, stone curving, oral tradition, written on stones, pictorial, cave drawings etc = testimonial evidence. So if you deny the same evidence for moses pbuh yet you accept the same evidence for soron, hamurabi, plato etc then you are committing fallacy of "special pleading". Either you have to deny all of them based on your logic, which isn't rational or you have to accept all of them, which is rational. Now dont do false analogies (fallacy) by comparing gotham city, batman spider man comic books to glorious quran. Nor deliberately miss the point (fallacy) of my position that is about "testimonial evidence".

[@haroonniaz8836]

These are the after shocks after loosing the debate against Br Shabbir.

[@littlemissstudents3803]

So Sa....Ra create a book like the Quran....if you so believe you are god. Allaah challenges you in the Quran. Go ahead. Try and give us all a copy.

[@malamakkavu]

this innocent man asking questions to know, but shabir misunderstood.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Shabir is not an idiot. He FULLY understood. But chose to be disingenuous. Which is why the elder Muslim guy towards the end of the video stepped in and clarified that Muslims believe the Quran whether you can go outside and verify its claims or not.

[@mihailomikel3341]

Sa Ra, you keep IGNORING my post about the FALSIFICATION test. Were you aware of it ? EVERYTHING in the Quran functions as EVIDENCE as long as the FALSIFICATION test is not MET. Shabir his point was that in GENERAL one OUGHT to uphold jugement if there is no EMPIRICAL evidence for or against the case. You were to emotional to grasp that brother xD Do you have historical EVIDENCE for the SOURCE of your CREATION? Exactly! you are simply digging yourself into a broad ditch if we reverse the standard you RAISED on your BELIEF in regards of the EXSISTENCE and the start of the UNIVERSE.

[@malamakkavu]

he is ready to embrace Islam but shabir eloquently misguides this innocent man

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

+Mikel eclok I do not need to take any test! The Quran needs to verify itself.

[@mihailomikel3341]

Sa Ra Garvey Yes, you said the Quran is subjective, the Quran states the opposite and gives you the TOOLS to disprove it. You do know that science works like that right? Have you ever heard of the falsification test? The OVERALL concept here is the SOURCE of creation, Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design X Evolution X You EXCLUDE both, so what are YOUR variables for the CREATION of the UNIVERSE ? 1.When you discuss with a jew, christian or muslim, you EXCLUDE Intelligent Design 2. When you discuss with an ATHEIST and disagree you EXCLUDE randomness for the creation of the universe If you EXCLUDE both you should present your VARIABLES for your EXSISTENCE. Its that easy mate.- running away from this question only affirms what i think (assumption) - that you are merely an emotional attention seeker.

[@nosson77]

Firstly I would like to say that these guys are talking very eloquently. why are there so many dislikes? Having said that I don't buy this line of reasoning. The reasoning is that if I can't find evidence where I think it should be then it must not exist. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the people using it think they know where the evidence should be found but clearly don't. If there a crime happened on a certain street according to these guys I should only trust evidence at the crime scene but not from people who where there and have now gone. This is clearly silly. It's funny because the example they gave is worse than what they are trying to prove. Anyway the same applies to Egypt. The Egyptians did not record everything that happened in Egypt there for this reasoning is simply flawed. You can not deduce anything from the lack of documentation of Moses in Eygpt. If the claim was that there was a certain king that lived in a certain period that didn't match the records are that clearly contradicted in some way the records then that would be a problem. Because over certain periods, every Egyptian king was documented so there is no room for another king in that time frame. Its the same nonsense argument to say that Jesus didn't exist. No serious scholar even if they are not religious would give validity to that point of view. Jusus is written about in the Talmud. Maybe David Saul, Solomon etc all didnt exist. Maybe all the rabbis of the Talmud didnt exist. Its just stupid talk. The argument is simply I don't accept your evidence that all. Its a non-argument. Btw I dont believe in Jesus as a god or something like that but it just so happenes that the evidene that such a man existed is very good and there is no evidence that he didnt. And the similar with Moses.

[@kennethwhite8045]

Why are these guys talking about a guy behind his back!...LOL!!!! This shit is funny.... Anyway, I have a question for anyone who can answer it.... What does the Quran say about Moses that isn't true?

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

There's no proof of Moses 😂

[@kennethwhite8045]

Sa Ra Garvey *YOU:* There's no proof of Moses *ME:* Is there proof of a mummified Pharaoh, who lived during that time, who's body, relatively speaking, is well-preserved and on display, TODAY for our viewing pleasure, as the Quran promised it would be? Furthermore, modern forensics tells us that this Pharaoh died by drowning. Just as the Quran said he did. Now, you (i.e. the brother in the video) claimed that the Egyptians recorded everything... that it's written in the hieroglyphics... that they have the history of all the Kings and Pharaohs, and what not. *QUESTION:* *Is the cause death of this Pharaoh recorded?* [After all, we have his body, and we know he drowned!] *And if not, why not?*

[@ArshadAminEMAZ]

here is my response to which Mr. Sa Ra responded with appeal to ridicule fallacy. Sa Ra: I don't beleive in moses pbuh because there is no evidence Me: there is. Sa ra: really ? well where is it ? Me: the same evidence which you and the whole world use to believe in soron, hamurabi, plato, aristotle etc That evidence is called "testimonial evidence", be it in hieroglyphs, stone curving, oral tradition, written on stones, pictorial, cave drawings etc = testimonial evidence. So if you deny the same evidence for moses pbuh yet you accept the same evidence for soron, hamurabi, plato etc then you are committing fallacy of "special pleading". Either you have to deny all of them based on your logic, which isn't rational or you have to accept all of them, which is rational. Now dont do false analogies (fallacy) by comparing gotham city, batman spider man comic books to glorious quran. Nor deliberately miss the point (fallacy) of my position that is about "testimonial evidence".

[@alibeatz2170]

Another way to look at it is, God is the creator of the Heavens and Earth who created every living thing, so if God is making a claim, we trust him and believe him with or without evidence. Just like if anyones mother would say to her child, for the first time "do not stay out son after 10:00 otherwise you would be in danger. You wouldn't say to your mother "mum, give me evidence on your claim first, then i will believe you". Lol, you would trust her and take her judgment and believe her.

[@alibeatz2170]

+Iqbal Mohamed There is a scenario mentioned in the Quran whereby God says that on the day of judgement, the people of hellfire would be chained and dragged to the edge of Hell, the angel keeper would say to them 'weren't you warned about this' they would reply "a messenger did warn us but we did not listen and reasoned" and they mocked those who believed in God and the unseen. So The person behind Iqbal Mohammed, don't waste your time being arrogant, you and i both will die one day and then you will realise the true purpose of life.

[@alibeatz2170]

+Iqbal Mohamed When death approaches you in your lifetime, remember what you said about the messenger of God.

[@madedigital]

Im so glad you got this after thought, its a perfect summery of the debate... Sa Ra Knows, what the question was and wanted a simple answer, I tell you i could have recorded more my phone but it was to blatant of a lie to watch i got the picture after 35mins with no real answer, is evasion, i was frustrated.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

He knew that if he answered the question it was Game, Set & Match 😂 But by not answering it he dug his own grave.

[@drzakir123]

that's becos ur looking for a black and white answer which u will never going to have becos the truth ur looking for is always a dynamic thing becos ur thinking process is dynamic. if ur looking for simple answer go and watch cartoons.

[@madedigital]

Sa Ra Garvey Thats the TRUTH!!

[@NeXuzMotionzz]

+Sa Ra Garvey from what I've seen, I think shabir was trying to say that evidence of absence is not necessarily absence of evidence. But I think by deciding to suspend judgment on word of God (as Muslims see it), he sort of weakened his position. In any case, I await the upload on shabir' s channel of this debate.

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

+NeXuzMotionzz then don't make a claim if you don't have all the evidence then!

[@paolomaldini6398]

what you cannot understand ,it's the book that is making the claim ,it's not shabir and if you are sure 100% is a false story ,then it's for u to disprove it by proving and verifying at least one of 10 kings in the list u came up with and u cannot prove a shit

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

It doesn't work like that... The Quran has to prove itself. It's not for me to prove it

[@paolomaldini6398]

what kind of prove do you want ???

[@paolomaldini6398]

because your list of 10 kings proves nothing and you can't prove even one of them ,so you tell me what kind of prove do you want ?? I am waiting for your answer to Lmao

[@haid3r88]

@@SaRaGarvey2012 let's just believe you instead, after all you can't prove that you speak to yours ancestors...but your're just a special fruitcake so lets just take your word on it... Sa'ra is exempt from providing proof for anything he claims guys...yet when it comes to Islam.. I WANT PROOF! I WANT PROOF! PROVE THIS HAPPENED, PROVE WHY THE QURAN SAYS THIS AND THAT. Sa'ra, where have you gone these days, people started to smell your double standards and you got off lol.

[@streetordeentv]

A reply to Sa Ra's video kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIfIiaegpa1nqbM

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

😂😂😂 He lost! Deal with it!

[@tonedtokill7531]

It's surprising seeing how excited you're getting from being in this one sided video. A little sad as well.

[@90nadz]

What's Sa Ra belief... Athiest?

[@tonysmith4091]

Do any of these gentlemen have jobs that they go to? lol I ask this purely out of jocularity. It just seems like they are at the Speakers Corner every single day. Nothing wrong with debating, but I just wonder if they have other things that they're doing...

[@SaRaGarvey2012]

Speakers corner is on Sunday ONLY! So any time you see people there, it's a Sunday

[@tonysmith4091]

Sa Ra Garvey Ok. Fair enough. Good debating by the way. Where exactly is this Speaker's corner held in the UK? I am in America and it would be interesting to have something like this over here.

[@isha6804]

I do not think there is an equivalent in the USA. I was born in London and I now live in the USA.

[@littlemissstudents3803]

The evidence of the words of the Quran are clear that it is Gods words and Allaah invites you to look around you at his creation how he brings the dead to life and life to dead. It is evident in plants. How he preserved Pharoahs body and washed it up for all to see (which is still in preserve to view right now) because he denied the existing of god, Allaah and believed he was god himself. Allaah invites you to look at the ruins from the people of before, i.e; moses etc. There is many evidences in the quran of its authenticity and Allaah says ask those who doubt to create a book of the like of Quran if he is in doubt. Allaah gives His personal challenge to those who debate about the authenticity of the Quran and the that Quran is indeed the direct words and command from Allah the All knowing, All wise, All creator, ever living, ever hearing, most merciful most kind.

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

The Quran is "the claim" and can't be used as evidence in and of itself. You need overwhelming external evidence for your extraordinary claims about the Quran.

[@elliot7205]

What? Using words like extraordinary is merley an a opinion in normal circumstances if someone made a claim I would just ask for evidence asking for more would be unscientific I think.

[@ovaismaq5035]

😂 haha what a terrible video unsuscribing from this channel.

[@ishkeeponee9272]

anyone else know that 'Sara' is gay? omg search it - you will see. bun battybwoy

[@richardosei3650]

Rambo Knifepoint fool I heard your gay

[@chezpiece]

you still crying !

[@Hasan_Al_Mamun371]

The person asking SARA I believe is ROB. Hey ROB did you forget the videos where brother Saboor just destroyed you? I remember. You were just dumbfounded by Br. Saboor. Now you come the take interview of SARA. You also talked by brother Shabir some day I have seen that, you just listened to him, could not answer back. Now you say Shabir this Shabir that!!?? None of you have the ability to be engaged in a logical debate with any of the Muslim Brothers here in Hyde park. If you have, come challenge any of the Muslim brothers with any topic you choose, lets see how you perform. SARA is just a straw man, he cannot debate with specific topic when you come to a logic he moves to another way, he is based on straw man argument.

[@SpeakersCornerUK]

Yeah, yeah all the muslims are so intellectually superior... Dream on...