Spec evo short : Domesticated animals in a post-human world

[@hsdinoman2267]

“Life breaks free. Life expands to new territories. Painfully, perhaps even dangerously. But life finds a way.” ― Michael Crichton, Jurassic Park

[@tomsimpkins1211]

You forgot the uh! How does everyone forget the all important uh..

[@hsdinoman2267]

@@tomsimpkins1211 this was a quote from the book, if it was from the movie i would have put it in there

[@tomsimpkins1211]

@@hsdinoman2267 Oh! entirely fair.

[@Strix182]

No way he stole that line from Jeff Goldblum (/s)

[@MiddlePath007]

Are you suggesting that a population composed entirely of females will.... ✍️ breed?

[@user-oj6re6ju9t]

Interesting analysis, I can imagine aliens landing on earth and seeing a big ass feral dog hunting a feral cow.

[@GURUcj]

PTSD Caelid flashbacks from Eldin Ring

[@leoornstein3963]

Average day at Caelid

[@mhdfrb9971]

It basically would be like a giant dingo

[@prasetyodwikuncorojati2434]

​​@@mhdfrb9971 they also encountering panther like creature or even something more exotic like smilodon mimic, of course it was distant descendant of feral cat

[@ianmessiter5564]

Like wolves hunting bison

Cats in Australia: Alright guys lets get 3 times bigger, immune to venom and venomous and kill everything.

[@Adriaticus]

Cats hunt small creatures in confined or obscured locations, similar to snakes. It is possible that competition between cats and snakes could create such an Australian cat.

[@Adriaticus]

Cats hunt small creatures in confined or obscured locations, similar to snakes. It is possible that competition between cats and snakes could create such an Australian cat.

[@beastmaster0934]

Including other feral cats, apparently.

[@onba7726]

​@@AdriaticusCats are actually pretty good at fighting snakes. I've seen vids of them hit a snake's head mid strike.

[@stevenschnepp576]

@@Adriaticus But in an environment that lacks larger predators, there's nothing stopping their getting bigger. Their anatomy scales rather well.

[@nickgushard8948]

My chadly army of Madagascar hissing roaches will solo

[@ginam5497]

Frog fodder.

[@xiodraco]

Honestly my biggest takeaway isn't about spec evo but instead how much we've warped the biosphere. I've heard about the whole "almost all animal biomass is humans and domesticated animals," but man that combined with how much we've stripped the remaining wilds makes me wonder just how weird a world invaded by our pets and livestock would be. Crazier still is how this is one of the less pressing problems we've created for ourselves regarding the future habitability of our planet. edit: apparently the entire biosphere isn't mostly humans and domesticates, that's just true for mammals

[@davidegaruti2582]

yeah ... honestly the world in the holocene would have looked weird regardless : either trough climate change or overkill the world was deeply depleted in biodiversity and megafauna , even assuming humans didn't do domestication or stayed more conservative in the agricolture department you'd have had either african and indian fauna migrating out and adapting to the rest of eurasia , some specie of antelope or bison taking the role of megafauna , or us shuffling stuff around as we shown ourselves capable of doing ...

[@echoecho3155]

In terms of evolution, domestication is a resounding success story. Domestic plants and animals are wildly successful at reproducing. As for biodiversity, biodiversity is usually the consequence of a stable ecosystem. The fact people have turned it into a value judgement, where greater biodiversity is equated with good, is bad science. What we're seeing is simply a transition. Humanity has done amazingly well by tapping into geologic energy resources. But we're merely at the beginning of a planet-wide ecological succession. I imagine in a million years, after fossil fuels are exhausted and humanity falls into a more sustainable rhythm, our descendants or replacements will discover that the "anthropocene era" was just a short blip with less impact than the K-Pg marker.

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@echoecho3155biodiversity means greater stability ... Low biodiversity ecosystems can be thrown off wack by a single species going extinct or having a bad year ... Constantly shifting ecosystems with loads of scavangers , predators , frugivores , grazers and all other kinds of deals will be more resistent to changes , since every piece is adapted to many types of interactions , and usually has a species it's competing with for the same resource that can fill in the space if the other species where to go extinct or have a bad year ... We increased biomass , but i am not sure that is a universally good thing

[@echoecho3155]

@@davidegaruti2582 I believe you're reiterating what I said. Biodiverse ecosystems are stable ecosystems. Ecosystems in flux have lower biodiversity. I agree that low biodiverse ecosystems are less stable, but stability is not necessarily a good thing. Nor is it bad. A stable ecosystem is more vulnerable to sudden changes, such as species introduction, evolution, climate change, or natural disaster. A less biodiverse system has more niches for organisms to exploit, making them more generalist and thus more resilient to sudden change. Valuing biodiversity is really an aesthetic preference, a desire to preserve what was over navigating what is. It is not necessarily good, nor the best way to approach conservation on a changing planet. I don't think the biomass increase is good. But in terms of raw evolutionary success, it's the best thing nature ever had happen. This is absent of moral considerations, mine or others - just raw reproductive capacity. I mainly dislike the misanthropy people often project about these issues, and how people forget that we, with all our art, beauty, waste, and poison, are part of nature. We desperately need to remove emotional weight from technical terms, or else we fail to correctly understand reality and can end up working towards genuinely detrimental environmental goals. I'm thinking people who want deliberate depopulation, reduction of human conservation efforts, and geoengineering to "correct" mankind's "alterations."

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

@@echoecho3155 Greater biodiversity is objectively more stable and better than a less biodiverse world. It's not misathropic to recognize humanity has harmed nature, need I go down the list of megafauna driven to extinction

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

Cats wouldn’t be as dominant as they are now but I’m confident cats would survive any apocalypse that didn’t render the world uninhabitable. Feeding off of rodents is just too good of an advantage for them to die off, even with the threat of new predation.

[@rickwrites2612]

Wouldn't there be much fewer rodents without people? They boomed because of our agriculture/grains and stay booming for our trash. It'd take awhile for them to clean up all the garbage of course, but once it's gone, I'd think rodent population shrinks back to how it was 15,000 yrs ago, just to feed on wild oats and grains. I agree cats will be quite successful though.

[@VersusArdua]

​@rickwrites2612 you're definitely right there but I think they'd do just fine regardless. At least, the ones not stuck in some empty city that's been picked clean. Cats wandering the countryside and other rural places would still have a wealth of mice to eat. I should know lol I live in the country myself and my cat brings me dead stuff like every single day. If I randomly disappeared, I don't doubt he'd eat just fine

[@AncientWildTV]

@@rickwrites2612 Without humans and our agriculture, rodent populations would likely decrease significantly as their primary food sources diminish. They’d revert to more natural cycles, which could lead to a reduction in their numbers. However, cats would probably thrive in this new environment, adapting their hunting skills to target smaller mammals and birds

[@Varinating]

@@rickwrites2612 With how much human presence harms birds even if we don't count predation by cats living near us, I think in our absence bird populations would rise very significantly. Rodents also raid birds' nests, some more than others, so in long term a fall in rodent populations will also help songbirds thrive. They can safely make up a significant portion of the diet of the cats who remain after the first wave of pet die-offs that will surely happen after we disappear.

[@rac1equalsbestgame853]

@@AncientWildTVNo issues. Rodent number droppings without humans makes for a drastic recovery of birds. Cats are already well equipped to hunt birds, so it will be a shift to have more bird in their diet.

[@SplotchTG]

Another great example of stray dogs bordering on speciation is the breed of dogs in North America called Carolina Dogs. They’re regarded as a “visual stepping stone” as to how stray dogs in Australia eventually evolved into dingos, and they themselves have a very dingo like appearance, however they’re still a “domestic dog”.

[@slaplapdog]

This !

[@lucioomv]

i have one of them as a pet, is like watching a wolf-dog breed, sometimes it howls and is very protective last time he saw a male dog (wild) he killed it, no problem with humans or female dogs

[@SplotchTG]

@@lucioomv Used to own one we called Burly, which is what made me think of the original comment. He was incredibly different mentally than any other dog I’ve owned, with behavior that I can only describe as wild-like. He would bury food, make a yipping call, and would stalk and pounce on us when playing. The only breed that’s even remotely close to his behaviors is my Basenji, which itself is a very old breed.

[@KitKitsuneVixen]

its interesting how wild dogs seem to default less to a wolf-like appearance and look more like a brown unique-looking dog

[@stevenschnepp576]

@@KitKitsuneVixen Evolution is indeed one-way.

[@lackinganame7857]

If Red dwarf taught us anything it's that cats will evolve into a finely dressed chap looking good over there and over here.

[@zebedeemadness2672]

Or possibly having a overbite, bowl cut, with stereotype nerd fashion 🤓.

[@terriblyclawed]

Feral chickens do pretty well for themselves. I could see them stretching themselves out in a post-human world into opportunistic omnivory, eating whatever they can get their mouths around. I can see a post-human world where large feral chickens are frequent predators of feral dog and cat litters, snatching young and escaping to low tree limbs. I would not put it past feral chickens to evolve themselves into short, stout secretary birds without humans to keep them under control.

[@rayzhang7591]

I remember seeing half feral chickens fly up to treetops effortlessly and roost there in a small and remote southwestern China village where my grandparents lived. The roosters are also very aggressive and have pursuit even injured kids and teenagers dumb enough to challenge them. So yeah, I can see feral chickens carve out a decent niche for themselves in a post human world.

[@jameswilliams2075]

@terriblyclawed depends on how much of the native predators remain and the breed of chicken meat breeds are to big and slow to to escape anything and game breeds are to aggressive at least in the eastern US were I live there are around 8 or more predators for adult chickens making it a hard time for them to form a stable population

[@terriblyclawed]

@@jameswilliams2075 Heritage breed chickens (your standard backyard birds like buff orpingtons, rhode island reds, plymouth rocks, black/red stars, heritage leghorns, etc.) are all pretty structurally and temperamentally sound. They're hardy and can survive in wide temperature ranges and generally are flighty around predators but bold and curious elsewise. I think they have the setup for pretty hardy generalists that can use their sheer numbers and clutch sizes to survive where their temperament and variability fail them.

[@dagoodboy6424]

Id say it depends on the habitat

[@jameswilliams2075]

@terriblyclawed I know I own them, their major problem it the predators in the US were I live so it depends what predators survive the speculative cataclysm

[@skeepodoop5197]

In an All Tommorows fan species challenge, I speculated that a lot of herbivorous humans on feral worlds would be inevitably outcompeted by the livestock also present on those worlds pre-Qu invasion. Considering most of the animal Biomass on our world is purely livestock that is well adapted to grazing, it's weird to think they wouldn't take over any abandoned planets the Star People would terraform, once evolution got to do its thing.

[@davidegaruti2582]

honestly non tool using humans would be weird : nearly all living apes are deeply arboreal , and our anatomy is deeply tied to tool use , pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38885385/ according to this we may have started depending on cumulative culture 3.3 million years ago , but that sounds conservative since stuff like nets , woven grass nests and deadfall traps would leave no fossil record and we see woven nests in great apes ... so yeah i think grazer humans would end up filling some weird alpine erbivore nieche , or climb up the trees and become browsers ...

[@miquelescribanoivars5049]

TBF the Qu probably wiped the planets clean before "rewilding" them with their experiments, so I suspect they picked and choose which groups of organisms they would add in each planet.

[@CyberSaurian]

This kinda happened to the Striders if I remember correctly. Carnivorous chickens killed em

[@outinthesticks1035]

We would be going back to the conditions under which humans evolved. I think as a generalist competing with specialists , humans could do quite well . Some were still doing so up to recently ( 100 years ago)

[@skeepodoop5197]

​@@outinthesticks1035 I'm not saying post-humans would be always out competed, I'm more saying that purely herbivorous humans would often be out competed. Generalist and carnivorous post humans on the other hand would likely do extremely well.

[@NitroIndigo]

"All mammal families have small origins" sounds like an inspirational quite.

[@baneofbanes]

Tbf all megafaunal species have small origins. Tyrannosaurs we’re originally small theropods who existed in the shadow of carnosaurs and megalosaurs.

[@rylanbrewer3320]

So did ceratopsians

[@rylanbrewer3320]

@@baneofbanes and both yinlong and guanlong evolved in china

[@beastmaster0934]

⁠​⁠@@baneofbanes And those carnosaurs and megalosaurs themselves were once small carnivores living in the shadow of giant terrestrial pseudosuchians.

[@baneofbanes]

@@beastmaster0934 yep. And those pseudosuchians were the defendants of small carnivores who survived the Permian mass extinction while living under the gorgonopsids.

[@gabrielsmedleysanimaltime5826]

If you want to use cattle for a future life spec-evo project, look no further than the Texas Longhorn for a real-life example. That animal wasn't made by man, but was created by mother nature.

[@migueljose5161]

Honestly i've lost count of the amount of times I discussed with some of my relatives about the impact of feral animals on ecosystems normally ending with a: "But they are just x innocent animal they couldn't done all that" even when I showed the proof of their impact. It's tiring sometimes

[@baneofbanes]

Most humans live in urban and suburban areas and have no real interactions with animals either wild or domestic.

[@KitKitsuneVixen]

it's crazy humanity's ability to not accept reality if reality isn't what they want

[@speculativewildlife]

Humans: die Domestic animals: mad max time, everyone

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Most will die.

[@speculativewildlife]

@@ExtremeMadnessX yeah mad max time!

[@KlaxontheImpailr]

I like to think some animals maybe daydream how they would survive if humans suddenly became extinct, kind of like the xenofiction version of a "zombie plan".

[@rickwrites2612]

I like the idea of "subsidized feral animal" like it gets a government check.

[@Girjon05]

I just know one thing. All of the domestic reindeer are going to be wild only 3 years after the humans are gone, and it will seem like they were never domesticated in the first place

[@davidegaruti2582]

I think they are mostly just tamed : Like reindeer where kinda farmed by the samni pepole in the 60s 70s , who previusly hunted them , The reason for this domestication was habitat shrinking wich made them treatened ... So yeah the reindeer are just chilling with the humans really , At least for now

[@Girjon05]

@@davidegaruti2582 There are some behavioral differences in wild and domestic reindeer, however again, give it a couple of years and those behaviors should dissapear. Also, the Sami people have had reindeer way longer, atleast to the Viking era, it's only the large scale herding that developed around the 17th hundreds

[@baneofbanes]

@@davidegaruti2582the Sami and other Siberian groups have been farming Reindeer for quite a while.

[@rylanbrewer3320]

Why

[@SplotchTG]

@@davidegaruti2582 I agree, I don’t believe the behavioral differences are enough to make “domestic” reindeer truly domestic. They don’t fear humans and view humans as a reliable source of food, which untamed/wild animals can already do (bears that have been fed by people for example). Much like with pigs, though I’d assume to a much more extreme sense, they’d be back to their wild ways in just a couple of generations, but maybe even sooner

[@zenebean]

Really appreciate how you go into our current relations with feral animals. The charisma of horses and cats tends to go poorly for native species

[@paul3v767]

Great video. And never, ever, ask a spec author what made its humans go extinct

[@keykeeper8167]

Another livestock aspect that might be interesting to consider is aquatic. Fish farms are a thing, and depending on setting if the collapse/removal of humanity happens a distant time from now describing how that time in domestication could have change the fish and then how they change again if they find a way back into natural water systems could make for some fun spec-evo.

[@petrfedor1851]

Growing up next to carp fish farm that's actually good question.

[@grantflippin7808]

Goldfish are highly invasive and are likely to survive unchanged after the collapse of human civilization

[@Varinating]

A horrific and oddly specific idea I had is an exaggeration of diseases that develop on fish farms. A future setting where these diseases are getting out of control but are managed with human medicine and safety procedures, then humans disappear, and these diseases and the fish that carry them get out. This is a wild card because the other species affected by these diseases vs immune to them are up to the author, but fish diseases are absolutely horrific even if not exaggerated in their ability to spread or species range.

[@GuavaConQueso]

You spoke on how domesticated cats can potentially get bigger and I recently saw a video on Australia’s feral cats that have been in the wild for many generations. They have gotten so big there is talk of making them their only subspecies and when people call their animal control they describe them as panthers.

[@scorpiopede]

Really fun topic, it is weird how often domestic animals are ignored in these projects, but then again I suppose most are trying to approach it from a natrualistic perspective and domestic animals are decidedly "unnatural" for the goals they have in mind. That said there's a lot of creativity that can be done with natural selection among feral livestock and pets. It's a shame about the lack of literature on chickens given their sheer abundance globally, I'm curious whether you imagine different populations would maintain their ancestral boom-and-bust cycles of reproduction or adjust depending on the environment a population needs to adapt to.

[@joshkorte9020]

Something often not mentioned are zoos. Most zoo animals would probably die in their enclosures, but the chance for populations of animals to escape and prosper in a human free environment is possible.

[@hondaaccord1399]

I could only imagine the carnivorous insect, parasitical, and ant booms in zoos, the amount of sudden fresh meat would be almost too much

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

In later Planet of the Apes movie Zebras roaming North America.

[@doomcurse1986]

and depending on the "world ending" disasters, places being leveled might allow stranglers to survive and escape. Many primates are held in by electric fences and power outages are a big risk for escape events.

[@colethewolfboy]

@@doomcurse1986imagine launching your friends out of the enclosure with a see-saw in order to save your species

[@rac1equalsbestgame853]

@@doomcurse1986Oh my... so interesting. Also the ammount of birds that will get released into enviroments they were not native to. Peacocks and the like.

[@diohotlips8171]

Oh my god this is so helpful I was making something for D&D that had a similar gist of what happens to animals like this when we're gone so this is a major shortcut thank you so much oh my god

[@gallixypegasuss1546]

We all know that cats will be drinking martinis on Mars when we die out

[@MilesY-gd4gi]

I get this reference:)

[@hondaaccord1399]

After they learn human language, hopefully

[@Hugo-yz1vb]

Ayyy Love, Death and Robots reference :D

[@thesjkexperience]

I’m good with that 😻

[@KitKitsuneVixen]

cats on mars vs mice on venus

[@thenerdbeast7375]

Glad to see I am vindicated in the statement that Dingoes would take care of invasive cats and foxes with relative ease if they weren't so suppressed in Australia. We actually already have strong evidence of "super cats" in Australia, with cats as large or larger than foxes being taken often by hunters and notably these "wallaby killers" as they are called have been known to prey on normal domestic cats when they find them which has HUGE implications for speciation because cannibalism among cats is a lot rarer than cannibalism among dogs. To actively view other healthy adult cats as prey goes to show they are on the fast track to becoming their own species. The reason why this isn't given much scientific study likely has to do with why Dingoes aren't often respected in scientific study; it is hard to convince authoritative powers that they are their own thing and not just "nuisance strays" which infuriatingly is still a common conception Australians often have for dingoes despite how much evidence there is.

[@l.t.c3847]

The Australian attitude to our own incredible and unique biosphere is so frustrating at times. The mere fact we still HAVE the dingo fence is insane to me, even natives like kangaroos are causing issues with overpopulation because we won’t allow their predators access.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

@@l.t.c3847 also Australia has a reputation as one of the few places where a big bird wandering into your backyard and eating your plants is a significant, very annoying, and potentially life threatening issue

[@beastmaster0934]

I’ve heard about them getting bigger, but I’ve never heard about them eating each other.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

@@l.t.c3847 Humans fucking over the ecosystem by either wiping out or screwing the movements of the natural predators is a worldwide phenomenon unfortunately. Hopefully they let the dingoes roam before they don't exist any more.

[@boygenius538_8]

It’s because dingoes are “technically” feral, even though they became feral millennia ago and have become an important part of the ecosystem. It’s a dumb technicality.

[@RubyCarrots3232]

Serina is probably my favorite example of seeded life in Spec Evo.

[@davidegaruti2582]

yeah , also likely the magnum opus of the spec evo sphere ... like the size of it is mind boggling ...

[@Takeawayjustin]

Honorable mention to squalosia

[@prasetyodwikuncorojati2434]

​@@davidegaruti2582look how far thing developed in Serina, at first birds and land invertebrates just look like something that exist on remote oceanic islands. But several million years after mass extinction thing getting more bizzare with three legged mammalian mimic which actually descendant of guppy and weird avian with insects or amphibian like lifecycles and from them developed various insane form like botfly like bird and even fish bird. Not counting with tentacle faced bird and bumblet, the quadruped bird

[@rylanbrewer3320]

My favorite is project musteleon we’re mustelids and skunks we’re seeded on a planet with anoles mice and prarie dogs

[@rylanbrewer3320]

From what I can tell none of the rodent have become apex predators the weasls and skunks have blocked any niche thye could fill

[@jameswilliams2075]

The abandoned crop field might have no studies but I have seen a abandoned corn field and what happend is very similar to what you said every year it got more patchy and smaller till none remained

[@davidegaruti2582]

Yeah ... The best hope for crops is that some other animal takes over the farming duty , somehow ... Even somenthing acting as a primary seed disperser ...

[@jameswilliams2075]

@@davidegaruti2582 ya but with corn for example it's wind pollinated so needs large chunks of it and even with it the corn died out. So it dosent look good for corn at least

[@CatAT0N1_C]

Cereal grains like wheat and corn are wind-propagated, so within overlaps of domestic and wild populations, there could be extensive hybridization + retention of some traits within the gene pool. Not to mention perhaps the survival of GMO traits.

[@rylanbrewer3320]

What would there chance be at suriving

[@minhducnguyen9276]

​@@rylanbrewer3320 Very low I guess. They are spread by wind but human domestication has made the grain too heavy to be carried by wind. Sure they have been selected for fast growing and resistance to environmental stress and pests so they got that covered but propagation is one thing they need humans the most.

[@THEEGOBLINNE]

FINALLY! I've spent so much time considering this topic, I am elated to see someone as knowledgable as yourself delve into it.

[@RomulusTheWild6693]

I feel like the dingo like dogs, namely the dingo, new guinea singing dog, carolina yellow dog, and Indian Paraiah dog, are the best bet for feral dogs rewilding themselves I would also say basenji and africanis dogs could too in some place were painted wolves have become locally extinct they seem to have slot themselves into that niche

[@raulvitorlucenamelo6213]

I don't know whether to be scared or amazed but today after watching a video about feral cats in Australia I became curious about this particular subject and a few minutes later you posted your video

[@klingoncowboy4]

Cattle are indeed a good candidate. Many breeds of beef cattle that are raised in regions with high predation and/or harsh climate are already selectively bred to self survivability. As someone with experience in this I can tell you that breeds that hide their calves from predators, protect their young, know how to shelter from extreme weather, and so have some commercial advantages. We often select for breeding individuals that are docile around people but aggressive to wild predators. In more marginal regions, particularly those with high seasonal variations there will be a major hit initially as cattle rely heavily on human feed. In regions such as Western Canada it is not uncommon for cattle to live semi feral through the summer, only to be brought home in the fall so they can be fed in the winter using feed stockpiled by people and deliberately grown and harvested for the purpose of winter feed. In a world without people these cattle would suffer a lack of human produced feed and artificial shelters... however, this can be countered by a lack of artificial fencing. Cattle are by their nature roaming creatures, and likely would quickly develop behaviors around seasonal migration much like the wild Bison of the past. Another factor to consider is calf mortality. Many calves are preserved thanks to human intervention either through nutritional supplements, vaccinations, predator control, or birthing assistance. No doubt a post human world would see an increased rate of calf mortality. But I feel based in my knowledge of cattle that this would tend to balance out. Cattle can also hybridize with Bison. A potential concept would be to speculate on a post human bovine roaming North America that is the result of Bison and Cattle successfully interbreeding, especially if the collapse of humans was set at a timeline where present efforts to rebuild truly wild Bison herds was a success.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Without humans, natural selection takes over.

[@IbexWatcher]

I wonder how feral animals would compete with their wild counterparts. For example, on the American plains, feral cattle would outnumber the recovering bison population by a massive ratio. However, the bison are far better adapted to the climate, native grasses, and predators. So would there be an “evening out” process? Would the cattle and bison form mixed species herds? Or compete?

[@davidegaruti2582]

I heard they can hybridize ... I wouldn't be surprised if a deluge of hybrid populations formed , all able to interbreed with one another but doing so rarely for behavioral reasons 🤔

[@burningbronze7555]

@@davidegaruti2582 depends on whether one of the hybrids gets most of the useful stuff as that would likely take over

[@baneofbanes]

Gonna be honest I doubt that Bison could force cattle into extinction. North America isn’t that different from Eurasia. Frankly cattle may cause bison to go extinct.

[@petrfedor1851]

I personaly suspect niche partioning. After all genus Bison and Bos coexisting alongside for quite some times.

[@petrfedor1851]

I suspect there would be niche partitioning with bisons on arid cold plains and cattle on more pathy plains with bushed and small forrests and even open forrests. At least in North America context while in other places without already established big browsers they might inhabit less favourable conditions as well.

[@connorgolden4]

I feel that while many dogs would die off in a post human world, I think eventually you’d see them start doing well. A lot of dog breeds are physically capable and quite intelligent, like German shepherds for example. They’re big, fast, and incredibly intelligent. I do think they’d (and other successful dog breeds) be able to survive and either mix and mingle with wolves or fill their role in areas where wolves went extinct.

[@St.IsaacOfSyria]

Naturally many grasslands will reappear due to the lack of irrigation to dry areas and the fact that forest fires are not allowed to exist anymore, which would clear trees and shrubs like they used to before we manufactured overgrown forests.

[@eliletts8149]

Assuming that the scenario under which a speculative "life after people" happens is similar to what happened at Chernobyl for example, the decendants of domestic/feral animals could indeed make it. It would more than likely involve a very sharp population crash initially.

[@takenname8053]

20:33 Project Apollo Mentioned! I really love these Spec Evo shorts, know the limitations of biology makes me think harder on species creation. I haven't seen too many future spec evo projects, just more and more seed worlds poping up, and I too plan to make one as well.

[@Jodipo]

And what animals will you use for your seed world?

[@takenname8053]

@@Jodipo Just like in Serina, a few invertebrates and only one terrestrial vertebrate. Since I'm a secretive person I can't tell you which species, but do know that I only started the idea in the summer of this year so I need more time to cook as well...

[@rokuth]

As to feral cats, there are reports from both Australia, and New Zealand where feral cats have become larger to the point that they are two to three times bigger than the average house cat. Again, as mentioned in the video, cats are genetically closer to their wild ancestors and so have gone back to larger sizes to dominate their hunting territory. So unless coyotes evolve to become larger, cats may end up preying on them. All speculation on my part of course.

[@bonemarrow3439]

10:39 Landrace breeds like the Indian Pariah breed are good examples of this. They are well adapted to the Indian subcontinent and have been around for atleast 4,500 years. They were said to be in the outskirts of settlements and even in forests as per ancient records (differing from Dholes). They are a well adapted Dog variety which can very well survive any post human world.

[@rylanbrewer3320]

@@bonemarrow3439 what about Carolina dogs those are landraces to first found in the wild

[@SpookeyGael]

it would be an interesting spec-evo project to to mix-and-match wierd domestic dog breed traits to create a number of different species with wildly different and specialized niches. Like a colonial burrowing species of dauschunds, or a fully aquatic species of newfoundland dogs.

[@populustremulus228]

Amazing idea!

[@YukikoAkazui]

very interesting video, didnt really expect this from the channel i knew as "interprets dragons from monster hunter but in zoology terms" but hey! i like it a lot. I'm glad the puppy wasnt dead, appreciated that :)

[@educlectic]

It is vital to consider the location in Australia from where the “feral cats” in this study were taken. Not all Australian feral cats are evolving into the mega-cats. There are specific areas of the Australian bush where the cats are growing much larger and becoming mega-cats. These tend to be the remote parts of national parks, nature preserves and islands where the cats have least predatory competition, most prey and most territory to roam. Such places are ironically where most "panther" sightings take place as well.

[@redactedbananas]

Our fruits and vegetables will be feral also.

[@Sara3346]

A part 2 covering carp, chickens, goats and others in the future would be super duper cool :-)

[@brendanmorin9935]

One important aspect that i think should be considered is a domestic animals ability to reproduce with, and integrate into native wild populations. For example dogs with coyotes, cattle with bison, pigs and wild boars

[@aaleven4728]

I honestly do wonder if paternal care can re-evolve in dogs. I know of a single male dog I interacted that was a present father, he would take care and lick clean the puppies while the mom was away, give away some of his food for them (he wouldn't bring food to them, however) and even attacked another dog when that one bit one of his puppies, not a parent in the levels of the mother but certainly useful.

[@unnaturalhistorychannel]

For sure it can, there’s some papers that show it can. And such individuals would be selected for no doubt.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

First issue I took with After Man was the idea that feral cats didn't rise up as predators, with the small Striger being their only remnant, and I don't see how something "obvious" could be boring. Same goes for pigs, who are extremely adaptable and successful organisms. Although they at least have some representatives in After Man.

[@baneofbanes]

After Man in general did a disservice to carnivorans.

[@educlectic]

@@baneofbanes Indeed. But what is happening to feral cats in Australia is an evolutionary destiny that must be accepted, not a theory.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

@@baneofbanes carnivoran disservice is unfortunately a trope that often stems from the now outdated idea of clade level outcompetition.

[@ThW5]

Be honest: After Man is set 50 million years in the future, 50 million years in the past we had the Early Eocene, the time of the hyraxbeast or dawnhorse of which the dental elements have been mistaken for those of primates, there were thunderbeasts, primates looked more like the ones we have on madagascar than anything else, it was an era where many of the main mammal groups we know so well from our era appear, though often looking a bit different. In that era we had highly succesful groups of predators which have gone totally extinct by now: terrorbirds (avian), and on the mammalian side the oxyaenids and the hyaenodontids (together known as creodonts) and Mesonychians, the group we know now as Carnivorans, from social lions, family forming wolves, to solitary bears, was represented by a couple of small ferret or civet-like animals, which would be kept in the small mammal house in a Victorian zoo. The nearly complete extinction of the mammalian predators of the current era 50 million years in the future is a mere reflection of the near complete extinction of the predators of the Early Eocene in the current era. So a likely rise of cats after the extinction of man in a relative limited extinction, in the first 10 million years or so, does not imply they would remain dominant terrestial predators for the next fifty million years, as warmblooded predators did not last that long in that position in the 50 million years before Man, That's a bit of actual SCIENCE fiction.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

@@ThW5 For starters, phorusrhacids existed about 43 million years ago on South America pretty much undisturbed, alongside sebecidae who existed before the KPG and lasted afterward. They only went extinct after the predator guilds on south america mysteriously collapsed, with phorusrhacids lasting a little longer and making it into North America with Titanis. Even Hyaenodonta lasted from 63.8 to 8.3 million years ago. By your metrics, it's "actual science fiction" to say these groups lasted 50-40 million years when they did and many were top order carnivores during all of their reigns. Also the entire thing about this is extinctions are wholly unpredictable or random. The author of said spec-project could just as easily make a reason for them to go extinct in 10 million years as they could in 50 million. Your comment largely seems as a moot point and I think most people take issue with the fact that practically every carnivoran (and pretty much all large mammals for that matter) just disappear rather nonchalantly for rodents to take over as carnivores. NOT that cats went extinct period. It's the 'why' and not the 'what', so to speak.

[@seandewar47]

Great video as always. Here's an interesting topic for a Spec Evo: A Future Florida. Basically, if humans got thanos'd, how would the invasive species evolve and adapt to the state?? What possible new species could evolve from things like snakeheads, burmese pythons, Caiman, and Cane Toads?

[@AshyPete]

Great idea, I've wondered this with every headline I've read about a new invasive found in the everglades

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

There will be no Florida in the future.

[@rac1equalsbestgame853]

And the escaped monkey population

[@tyrannotherium7873]

Yeah, I agree. Some of the massiff types would be like the bone crushing dogs.

[@rockymtnsteeze1815]

The wildest dog I ever had was a Siberian Husky. She killed some rodents and birds while one a leash. I did not even know these small animals were around. I always felt terrible when she would kill a bird or rodent while walking her on a leash. She would snatch them out of the brush. She would escape sometimes. I saw her jump up in the air and snatch up a bird at my neighbor's bird feeders. She is the only dog I ever had that caught a rat while on a walk on a leash. One time she ran away and came back with a elk's leg. I think she found a dead elk, there's no way she killed an animal that large. I always thought she could live in the wild and did not really want to be a pet. She liked to run away. Her prey drive was very high. She would of lived longer than most dogs.

[@spacesaturnarts]

I love all your content but i cant deny the special place spec evo shorts has in my little world building heart

[@GallowglassVT]

My seed planet scenario is mostly purged of invasives, but depending on the region, I had the idea that ferals would be kept in certain areas to supplement certain compatible ecosystems that they'd fit into or wouldn't be overtly harmful.

[@doomcurse1986]

Me the guy who hyperfixates on birds: "What about the feral chickens?" (tho I can imagine theres not enough study on feral chickens/ducks/turkeys etc)

[@minhducnguyen9276]

Duck probably will do fine but chicken probably will struggle outside of the tropical regions. They evolved in tropical rainforests and humans brought them to colder climate regions.

[@slaplapdog]

​@@minhducnguyen9276 Maybe. I'm in zone 6, and my chickens do fine without supplemental heat.

[@aleisterlavey9716]

​@@minhducnguyen9276 there are some alpine breds who withstand colder climates, but they are often a more easy prey.

[@beastmaster0934]

@@minhducnguyen9276 Yeah. They’ll probably be restricted to South America, Africa, and Southern Asia after humans disappear, with populations in the latter probably crossbreeding with native red jungle fowl.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

@@beastmaster0934 If there's a biome rich in food and shelters in the temperature zone they might survive the winter without humans intervention. After all, what chickens lack is the overwinter behavior as they don't store fat in autumn or know how to forage in the winter. Then again, maybe they'll survive the same way as turkey. Wild Turkeys also drop like flies during winter as they get hunted by predators while foraging, their numbers simply bounce back during spring and summer.

[@tozarkt9805]

Great video! I love the in depth analysis of cats, dogs, cows, pigs and horses, and you’ve certainly changed how I’d include them in a project. If you’d want to, a sequel talking about chickens, sheep and goats would be amazing, and maybe information on how animals that aren’t domesticated but benefit from humans such as mice, rats and pigeons would fare would be great as well!

[@someoneawesome8717]

Dingos, Coyotes and wolves would probably mate with the dogs (much as they currently are) while also adding unique specialization to the new hybrid species

[@cgstudiosthebaconbro]

Theres been a comeback of spec evo recently and I love it

[@skunkapestories4622]

There was an art series I saw called "No man's land" that looked at both domestics and invasives. Terriers became successful in Europe in his setting. Most of it was really well thought out, with the exception of his California portion.

[@rylanbrewer3320]

Why what about California

[@rylanbrewer3320]

@@skunkapestories4622 what’s wrong with the California portion

[@skunkapestories4622]

@@rylanbrewer3320 The black bear alone takes the ecological niche away from half the exotic 'escapees' he put there.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

⁠​⁠@@skunkapestories4622 ok it makes sense the black bear would recolonize in the absence of humans due to not being persecuted anymore… but what kind of ‘escapees’ are we talking about?

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8i think zoo animals and other luxury pets ... Going off a hunch really , there is kinda this trope of zoos reshuffling the biosphere when humanity goes extinct

[@StarMaker8442]

Domesticated animals get strangely ignored in spec evo ive noticed or just handwaved into extinction.

[@burningbronze7555]

depends on when humans bite it and on the farming situation, if they have largely been replaced by the synthetic meat some companies can make now they would not likely be relevant as well as what kills us.

[@filipbitala2624]

Because its very dependent on even how we dissapear, no dog would survive if we bit it in the middle of the night with all pf them locked up, and on the other hand, especially here in Europe with pretty much all predators near or at extinction, they would absolutely become apex

[@BigBossMan538]

Great video. You could easily make another part on this talking about goats, camelids, etc. I agree that domesticated animals are worth considering for future Earth projects. At least rodents, cats, and chickens will survive our extinction depending on circumstances. Off topic, I know, but what about zoo animals and other exotics? My top level thoughts are that basically anything that can’t get out of there exhibits won’t make it. Furthermore, the populations of certain animals may be too small to even get a foothold into the ecosystem. Though we do kinda see this in real life with the escaped zebras in southern California. Off top

[@thegreatgoldfilms6311]

THANK YOU! I always wondered what would happen to domestic animals after humans went extinct and it bothers me that 9/10 spec evo projects neglect mentioning domestic animals

[@creatureking-theoriginal1068]

bro did them dirty 😭😭 0:38

[@andrewoid4711]

What?

[@andrewoid4711]

What?

[@5341Nation]

A good example of domesticated/feral animals evolving is the 2007 movie "Black Sheep", where a zombie-like chemical in the water causes an entire herd of Sheep to become carnivores, and eat people. It's a silly movie, but it does show off the "carnivorous farm animal" trope very well

[@Stothehighest]

Super early! This is perfect timing for a gameworld I'm working on.

[@jazzingpanda3190]

Can’t watch this rn, subbing and saving to come back to later, sounds like a v interesting topic

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

this is by far one of the most informational videos I've ever watched. so many 'debunked' beliefs/presumptions I had were cleared up and the topic itself is just ridiculously interesting on its own. I could watch an hour of this

[@SemiLobster]

Most feral dog populations, rather than differentiate and speciate, generally always end up looking the same with the same traits emphasised such as the dingo, carolina dog and singing dog, these are a light brown coat, erect square ears, wedge shaped head, and 15 kg.

[@IndominusRex-wc1ey]

...dingos are only 15 kilograms?

[@SemiLobster]

@@IndominusRex-wc1ey On average, they are not very big dogs, very wirey, although they tend to be bigger in the North and North West compared to populations in the South. Feral horses like mustangs and brumbies also tend to all start looking the same the longer they are free of human selective breeding, and they also always get smaller too.

[@IndominusRex-wc1ey]

@SemiLobster no but like 15 kilograms seems really small to me. You're certain they're THAT small?

[@educlectic]

There are feral cats in the Australian Outback that weigh 15kg….

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Natural selection prefer wolf shape.

[@isaacthedestroyerofstuped7676]

Awesome video! There are few things that irritate me more than the people who move out here in the wilderness and then bemoan the dangers that native species pose to their pets. Here in the SE US, coyotes are often shot (illegally) the moment they set foot in people's yards, and whitetailed deer are grossly overpopulated, malnourished, and riddled with diseases because we are the only things that hunt them. Pushes to reintroduce wolves never get anywhere because of pet owners and farmers, and hunting is falling out of fashion. If you go in the woods out here, it's all invasive plants because the deer can't or won't eat them, so they've stripped the native ones bare.

[@Barakon]

I bet parrots will do well, including the ones originally driven to endangerment cuz nobody is destroying their habitat.

[@aprilcollins368]

At the point of destruction we've allreddy done to thear main homes and food we've allreddy doomed them to extction . With out people to give them food thay are one species that are highly likely to not make it. Edit : maby if thay are talking birds thay could find a groop of dogs that will except thear commands and use the dogs to get into human made nuts and seeds but once that runs out again doomed

[@Barakon]

@@aprilcollins368 Can’t they just forage seeds & nuts on their own like they do already? Parrots are pretty smart so I think they’ll figure something out.

[@Deoxys_Used_Mimic]

Anyone played Tokyo Jungle? I think I know what the domestics are gonna do…

[@hondaaccord1399]

Be racist? Damn...

[@phantasmalemperor8887]

I think if we have humans leave the world as is. Cats would do well in abandoned cities. There would be plenty of prey and the verticality of the habitat would make it a lot safer from other predators.

[@najpotenicewolf934]

Yeah, cats are actually pretty self-sufficient, Tbh. life of a single cat wouldn't be probably that long, as they would be killed at some point by predators or illness. But it would still be enough on average for them to breed more than once in their lifetime.

[@regularbricksstudios1109]

God I love this channel, such interesting topics

[@RedKoopaPlumber]

From 1800s to 2010 there was a feral cattle population in near antarctica called Amsterdam Island had a cattle abandoned and over the time adapated in more salt tolerance as well as a smaller size than the origionals. Although coincidenfal they also have some resemblance to aurochs! Im including them in a extinct animal and breed paleoart project from antarctica!

[@agisuru]

I often find myself wondering about the opposite version of this topic-- in a world of speculative creatures that DO feature human presence (like monster hunter), what impact might they have on evolution? What traits predispose an animal towards taming and domestication? As human civilizations grow, how would these speculative animals adapt?

[@dezwolfe2283]

Having some sort of social behavior is one of the best indicators for an animal being domesticate-able. There's a reason that dogs were the first domestic species. Like the humans, they live in small family groups with a stable and relatable hierarchy (parents, adolescents, children -> Adult wolf, yearlings, pups). Like humans they are endurance predators that incorporate teamwork as a hunting strategy rather than being solitary ambush predators. We found a predator that was in essence a lot like us, which is why we worked so well together, and turned them into our best friends.

[@austinames9340]

Although you excluded invasives and exotics, I am curious as to how you think exotic pets and invasive species could possible fare evolutionarily. Something like the giraffes in the Last of Us, the zebras in Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, and/or the various zoo/circus animals that would be left to their own devices makes for an interesting topic all on its own.

[@baneofbanes]

Gonna be honest winters in Utah are brutal and it’s a pretty dry state. I don’t see how they would survive. Basically invasives have to be from a domaine climate. That’s why pigs do so well in Eastern North America were the climate is near identical to Europe. So I could see giraffes and other African species maybe adapting to the Pampas in South America or Siberian tigers dominating in temperate North America, camels in the South West, etc.

[@ProfessorRugops]

To be fair much of the proper south is ideal habitat for subtropical to tropical megafauna, wouldn’t be TOO surprised if zoo or wildlife sanctuary escapees end up colonizing much of the Americas if humans suddenly vanished.

[@petrfedor1851]

Similiar things happened with pheasants in Europe. Few centuries ago some were set free by rich assholes for hunting and they established themself within cultural countryside so well they feel like native species. And several years ago flock of sAouth American rheas escaped from farm And they Are doing well. Also several species of deer including rain deer from south Europe.

[@thierrycarlow3810]

Hey unnatural history channel. An interesting video you can do is a food web in regards to a monster hunter environment explaining how all the monsters found in that environment may interact with eachother

[@Americanbadashh]

0:12 Nah, I'd Win

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Same. 🙄 Loser talk from the uploader!

[@KyuuDesperation]

No.

[@VersusArdua]

Typical human 😂

[@viniciuspaiva3578]

I am myself am attempting a timeline where pests and feral domesticated animals are the only species to survive after human extinction

[@Banished-rx4ol]

Huh thats actually an interesting analysis, great video

[@BrontoSmilodon1]

this doesn't have to fully do with evolved animals but you should give the documentaries, "Aftermath population: Zero" and "Life After People" a (re)watch. They're both pretty interesting.

[@b4tman_and_Rob1n]

where can I watch these?

[@BrontoSmilodon1]

@b4tman_and_Rob1n I think they're still uploaded for free on the internet. One is made by History Channel and the other by National Geographic.

[@nothing-of5yc]

What is your opinion on "All Tomorrow"?

[@PangaeaUltima-xu7hu]

When this video came out, I was actually working on a worldbuilding project and in the desert environment, there are selectively bred Carnotaurus that were built to be much larger and uses bulldozers and war beasts and now run wild

[@omage3457]

(typed before I finished watching) This is gonna give me more energy to work on my spec-evo

[@lucasvega4216]

In Uruguay we have the Cimarron, it's a non man made breed, they descended from the dogs brought by the spanish (war mastiffs and sighthound). They were successful enough to become a threat for humans and had to be eradicated, they only reason the breed still exists is because people saw value in them. In Uruguay summers can be harsh and winters harsher but the cimarron survived, they were known for hiding in the monte during the extermination campaign held by the government , so I imagine denning instinct was either stronger in dogs back then or it evolved again.

[@kevinpoe8137]

Feral pigs, given the opportunity, will eat young animals like fawns, they’ve been documented in Australia to predate on lambs, they’ve also been known to eat the eggs and chicks of ground nesting birds and will even raid the nests of crocodilians Edit: pigs, to me, are the scariest type of farm animals because of their willingness to eat literally anything, I’ve heard plenty of horror stories about farmers being eaten by their own pigs after falling in the pen

[@Rietto]

That happened to my grandfather when he was a little kid -- almost. He got away with just being scalped by the sow instead of completely devoured, though. Was bald the rest of his life. Hearing that story from my mom when I was a kid instilled in me a healthy fear of large pigs.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Until they themselves become prey to something else.

[@shadyoak1899]

I've been thinking about this to myself lately, kinda neat you did this yourself.

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

Yeah the complete lack of feral/invasive species in alot of spec evo is so odd

[@JohnyG29]

Play at x1.25 speed, so he doesn't sound like he is about to fall asleep.

[@kingkobra4910]

A interesting topic would be on how the 5th Gen handled turf wars and how situations like that get handled comparatively in real life when animals are forced to react with fighting

[@Woodswalker96]

Okay. Before I watch this video, I just wanted to say that I’ve also thought about this very same topic and how, at least in my opinion, wild descendants of formerly domesticated animals won’t simply look like carbon copies of their wild ancestors IF they’ve been heavily modified. Dingoes are the prime example, and feral swine would be too if people didn’t introduce undomesticated wild boar into the mix (this would of course apply to areas where wild boar are not native, as native wild boar and free-roaming or feral domestic swine would likely naturally interbreed, I assume). Horses may also but I’m not too sure about given the potential range in undomesticated wild horse coloration. Cattle for sure count. I’m getting ahead of myself, anyways, thanks for creating this video on this topic, looking forward to watching it!!

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Most will vent extinct because they can survive 1 day without humans.

[@bigjared8946]

Cats simply ascend to the throne, obviously.

[@commandershepardmessiah3345]

Outside of domestic animals one thing I've thought about in terms of spec Evo is animals in zoos that escape after an apocalypse and those that can adapt to different foreign habitats

[@WildlifeWire_SciComm]

19:12 We forgot to talk about this in the spotted hyena video with you. Guess we'll have to remember to bring it up in the Przewalski's horse video when we explain the difference between a wild horse and a feral horse.

[@petrairene]

I think certain types of dogs might fare very well in certain habitats. For example the Podenco that is bred as a hunting dog in Spain could survive there without human assistance. The polar breeds like the husky have a very robust hunting drive and no problem with the climate. Small terrier types like the jack russell terrier could live off of rodent hunting without humans, competing in the fox niche. In Europe domestic pigs have no chance, they are outcompeted by the wild boar that is much better adapted to life in the wild. All current feral pig populations come from robust old type pig breeds, not the ones used today in factory farming.

[@kmr_tl4509]

10:50 never really thought about how the infrastructure we left behind could serve as really good habitats for creatures other than pests and insects. We might even have animals adapt to "nest building" with the remaining large scale debris (anything bigger than a twig), similar to how beavers build dams. It might even select for animals that are intelligent enough to understand the load bearing capabilities of what they build with and how to assemble the complex geometries they'd find materials in...

[@feildpres]

Loved this video! Such an interesting topic that ive never considered before

[@mudshrooze]

I may be wierd but I have loved Warthogs and pigs in general since i was 3 years old or younger. Probably stemming from Bebop from TMNT, Troff from DK64, and Puumba from Lion King. Over 25 years later. I still love Warthogs and consider them in my top 20 animals.

[@hubertkafel640]

Probably the worst offender of this trope is "future is wild" documentary which I still consider a quote "that didn't age well" speculative evolution project when compared to other ones

[@thirtysomethingmedia8118]

Feral dogs do just fine. Coy dogs, strays in packs in Russia, India, dingos, ect...

[@bebejemzy1090]

It would be kinda cool to see pigs adopt a more carnivorous lifestyle and evolve into an entoledont like creature.

[@chestergt7765]

A pack of pissed off 200lb Chihuahuas roaming the grasslands

[@Anon26535]

Honestly, I think it's a bit optimistic to think domesticated life can ever diversify enough to take over old ecological niches and restore the environment. Livestock and crops need huge amounts of effort to keep them from succumbing to disease due to their lack of genetic diversity, and that's without getting into deliberate genetic modifications over the past few decades that have made many species even less viable to return to the wild. What's most likely to happen is mass die-offs of all macroscopic life as bacteria and viruses spread unchecked. Any wildlife remaining is likely to get choked by the toxic byproducts of so many bodies breaking down on mass. Even bacteria may not survive, as the amount of greenhouse gasses released by so much decaying meat and plant matter may be enough to heat the planet to the point that it can no longer support life at all.

[@ThW5]

Just look at it like this, a HUGE extinction event, be it snowball Earth, cosmic events or humanity happens: The survivors are few in number, but have an entire planet to expand into.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Or they just be eaten by predators like wolves.