Spellcasting was MORE BALANCED in OLD-SCHOOL D&D!?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

ADDITIONS/ERRATA: -I now say this while holding my nose... THIS IS SATIRE. And a history lesson! Judging from the comments, I apparently underestimated modern D&D/Pathfinder players' familiarity with the history of the hobby. Well if this video opened some people's eyes, challenged and educated people, I'm glad! -WHY THE HELL am I doing this? First, I'm fascinated by the history of D&D/Pathfinder and how the game historically dealt with problems like martial-caster balance. Second, a bit of a jab at WOTC for not really taking on the martial/caster balance problem in the new edition (and what they've done is too little too late), while the "imbalanced" old-school D&D put more attention on this! I thought this would stimulate thought and discussion! -If any y'all thought I was so connected as to get leaked documents, then I guess I'm flattered!? (And to all the "to early for April Fools" comments: you KNOW that April 1 would be too late for this to work!) -THIS JUST IN! ANOTHER leaked document has magic-users age supernaturally when they cast certain powerful spells! Casting Restoration will age the caster 2 years, Wish ages you 3 years, and Gate ages you 5 years. The Dungeon Master secretly rolls when you will die of old age. Crazy! -I credit the "Daddy Rolls a 1" channel for finding that gem of a quote from Jack Vance. Subscribe to him for great in-depth knowledge about the history of the hobby! -PETTY NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION: I shall keep my glasses crooked for the 1st month! Every rude comment telling me to straighten them lengthens this by 1 week. You're not paying me, and I already tried straightening them but something about my ears or sumthin. Enjoy the free content! =D

[@ponytail336]

Can I reduce it by a week by leaving a nice comment about the crookedness?

[@gahfwa3541]

My glasses sit crooked too! Always have and always will. Rock it!

[@zolgathor]

Dear Ron, please do not fade away from us like Nonat1s, I always preferred your content to his due to accuracy, but considering he was a large, if not the largest pf2e youtuber, I'm hoping you do not feel the same sentiment of burnout. Really appreciate your content. Please don't leave for cigarettes and/or milk!

[@Gafizal1]

Aging: Play an Elf... or a druid that makes very high level ...next?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

​@@zolgathorI appreciate the sentiment, but I strongly feel that the way to avoid burnout is to pursue what you're interested in. Burnout comes from something feeling like a chore. PF2 videos will come so long as I'm interested in it! Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that the history of D&D IS the history of Pathfinder!

[@noirSONNE]

18:09 "Back in my day characters could die during creation." - Gygax probably

[@Unahim]

They can in Infinity 2d20 ^^ It simply means they're put into another body or "sleeve" though.

[@claytonhilliard925]

They could if you played Traveller.

[@samdoorley6101]

Looking at the design statement by Gary Gygax and the charts and tables clearly from the AD&D Players Handbook, my first thought was: "But it's not April 1st." This was a nice trip down memory lane. Well played sir.

[@BrianCooksey]

Ronald's legal specialty is Committing to the Bit.

[@devcrom3]

This comment is for the person on Reddit who says there's no way we'll get three non-pathfinder related videos in a row. You owe me $20.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Well, yes and no. This is a video about Pathfinder's origins as well as D&D's! (Since PF is derived from D&D.) I've always been really interested in D&D/Pathfinder history and am branching out a bit now. I'm kind of taking the break people in the comments were screaming at me to take when I did 12 Remaster videos in a row just a few weeks ago, which some are now complaining about lol

[@christopherg2347]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG That means every PF video is a DnD video 😀

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Lol as soon as you said the staggered XP section it finally hit me as “ohhhhhh I get now”. Nice

[@queenannsrevenge100]

Ronald, you should start a new tradition: Having a joke or satire video every Jan 2nd and playing it perfectly straight on April 1st. Everyone is either high on Christmas energy still and this is the first day back to work, so they’re happy for the spoof, OR Christmas was a ****show and they’re in need of a laugh. 🤪

[@KlausWulfenbach]

I am really impressed that they managed to get Gary himself to work on the new edition of D&D. Even if he can't get all the Unearthed Arcana into the main rulebooks, maybe he can include it in a supplement? For some reason I thought he'd never work on an RPG book again, but I'm glad to be proven wrong.

[@MrJerks93]

I actually love a lot of these old rules, as the asymmetrical gameplay did actually balance the the power of magic vs martials. Unbounded accuracy also played into this. Warrior classes were flat out better at hitting things as their attack roll increased at every level. Magic-users were half of that. Damaging cantrips are such a part of 5e, it's hard to imagine the game without them, but (to steal from Pathfinder), imagine how differently it would play is cantrips weren't infinite (maybe being more encounter powers, or requiring a recharge action in order to use the same one again within the same scene. For my money, the declared action before initiative, then executing them really adds a lot of dynamic tension to each round, increases coordination, and limits the artificiality of focus fire, as if you all target the same person and that person is downed, that's a lot of wasted actions.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

You've got me thinking about how more "intuitive" declaring first and resolving things simultaneously is. I mean, that's how many wargames do it, and the Diplomacy board game which was all the rage in Gygax and Arneson's circles. This might be a topic of its own!

[@VestigialLung]

They’re certainly *advancing* the game with these proposed changes.

[@honoramongassasins8056]

Ouch, well played.

[@paavohirn3728]

Now we know which edition it will be! AD&D 3rd edition! 😂Or is it still AD&D 6th edition as we count AD&D 1st and 2nd but not OD&D, B/X or BECMI 🤔

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

​@paavohirn3728 we are still waiting for everyone to catch up, or back up Thank Gods I still have my TSR stuff

[@paavohirn3728]

@@stefanjakubowski8222 Aww man! I threw away my 2nd ed core books 😭 But I've got my BECMI I'm referencing now and then. My go to now is Dolmenwood which is as close to perfection as old school D&D gets. Some house ruling needed of course 😉

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

Next he has to explore the weapon vs armor hit modifiers in PHB 1 page 38​@paavohirn3728

[@JKevinCarrier]

Having played a lot of 1st edition, in my experience most players got around this by just multi-classing as a half-elven Fighter/Magic-User, which gave them more hit points and let them wear armor during those hazardous early levels. The drawback was that half-elf Magic-Users were capped at 8th level, but as you point out, it took so long to get that far (especially splitting XP between two classes), that the campaign probably wouldn't last that long anyway...

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Or multi-classing as an elven or half-elven MU/Thief for the advantage of unlimited (if slowed) thief advancement. As a MU they'd want to stay out of combat anyway, and spells supplemented thieves abilities (spider climb, invisibility, and the always useful knock being first to mind) to enhance the unlimited advancement class. I always enjoyed the MU/Thief dynamic myself. I didn't like the Fighter/MU dynamic as much though. An average of Fighter and MU hit points quickly became worse than just going straight fighter class after three levels.

[@josephpurdy8390]

Elves shown in the PHB, and The Multiclass Characters fighter/magic-user section does have restrictions on thieving in armor, but not spell casting. I still would rather play elven fighter single class. I find it to be a success when a character retires.

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

@@josephpurdy8390 I understand and agree with that. I know we had a "legendary acts" homebrew rule where if a character at level limit did something extraordinary/miraculous (or they used a wish) they could exceed the normal cap by one level per legendary act (I think it was two levels if one used a wish but I don't remember for sure). We actually enjoyed retiring characters that were at or near cap for whatever 'happily ever after' seemed suitable to them. I remember a friend of mine's dwarf fighter entered into an agreement with Rufus and Burne in Homlett to join with them and fund expansion of their keep while my half-elven fighter/cleric joined the church in Homlett as the local defender of the faith. 😀 They were de facto NPCs then, though occasionally they'd come out of retirement to help the old gang with a spot of bother. I seem to remember that the dwarf died in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and my fighter/cleric (who survived, barely) paid to add on a small chapel to the expanded keep with a tomb for him there. Good times!

[@davemorris9368]

I think its a good history to show how the martial/caster divide has grown and why. I think PF2E has done a good job with some of these , in particular the reduced damage of cantrips and certain spells.(a high level wizard's firebolt shouldn't be in the same ballpark of damage as 4 fighter attacks IMO.) I think for D&D and other games there are simpler ways to fix some of the other ways players can make casters so hard to kill without gutting them down to AD&D levels.

[@abstractlime101]

Damn you Ronald The Rules Lawyer, you clever joker, i was actually excited for them to make the game better

[@WolfBoy-om6dw]

I thought this was real too

[@JacksonOwex]

Ok, so this IS not actually real?! That makes SO MUCH more sense!

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

Lols I am a grognard this is where we started I started with these books

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

I was listening to this in the car so I couldn’t look at it right away. I kept waiting for the punch line as I recognized everything he was talking about. Vocally was well played. The moment I looks at the screen I saw the AD&D stamp and just busted up laughing. Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.

[@kg4wwn]

I would love if they moved back to some of the older meta, especially having the wizards be squishier and slower to power-up. There was a real feeling of achievement from getting to 5th level and really starting to hold your own, and then in being able to break the world with a single spell later on. Now even getting a capstone ability doesn't feel as big of an achievement.

[@jaeger4540]

*Reads comments* ... Rules Lawyer; I salute you! Well done sir. Well done!

[@Austin-cn8vh]

Ok but rock the tilted glasses. Gives off wizard vibes

[@StefanRadermacher]

I'm baffled that people in the comments are actually taking this seriously.

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

Lol I was listening then I looked at the screen and saw the cites from PHB 1 I started rolling Reading comments have been fun

[@grantschiff7544]

It took me a minute to realize I hearing the rules I grew up with. Hilarious

[@skywise001]

My buddy and I added a complete reworking of how magic users got spells to memorize. You learned based on the materials/time studying/quality of books and you could only learn spells in a shool of magic you already know. But with extra hard research you could branch out. Say you have a Fire School and you just learned fireball. You could research your way into the school of The Sun from where that spell overlaps. One combo I remember was darkness was both in the evil school and the drow :) Oh and each school had a min of 9 spells (1 ea level) to 18 spells (no less than 1 ea level). We got super creative basing them off legends and gods - my fav was the magical chores school (Read Magic, Detect Magic, Identify, etc). Then in 2nd Ed they added schools - nothing like ours but ah well.

[@Can-uj5pv]

Hey, the new schools for Pathfinder 2e Remastered are sort of like yours!

[@yuisure6755]

I have a system of casting levels 1-16th level and 2 variations spiritual meaning human or cursed humans by magic or magical for magical beings. 11th level to 16th only restore spell slots Every 2 days so 36 hours after the casting of that spell. 1-10th level restore each day after a rest of 8 hours + 2 hours awake. More powerful spells require more recovery time. Disease casters need 24 extra hours to recover spells as the are too weak to normally regain spells.

[@JWK1101]

I think this look at the history of D&D magic explains how we ended up with the overpowered casters of 3.5 and 5th editions. Magic users in the TSR era were powerful and flexible, but limited and fragile. At their best they were unstoppable, but would exhaust quickly and could be easily be thwarted by circumstances. Over time, those limitations got smoothed away, both to reduce fiddliness (like different advancement tracks and the DM having to come up with spells) and to create the fantasy of a spellcaster who solves problems with magic, instead of being a normal dude who can solve 1-2 problems a day with magic. The trouble is that this removed all the downsides of being a magic user, leading to an imbalance. Pathfinder 2e solved this with a bunch of little design changes to restore balance, but really what this makes me think is that Vancian casting is just past its use-by date as a magic system. Vance is a fairly obscure author at this point, and modern fantasy tends to be more about having fewer, more focused abilities that are usable more often (compare how magic seems to work in D&D-based media like Honour Among Thieves and Legend of Vox Machina, with how it works in actual D&D). While I doubt WotC will have the courage to walk away from this system again, I hope that when Paizo gets ready to think about 3rd editino (hopefully many years from now) they give serious though to eliminating Vancian casting and replacing it with a more modern design.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I personally wouldn't mind keeping some Vancian classes in a future 3e, so people at least have the option. But I wouldn't be surprised if Kineticist clones are what we're looking at in the future for magic. We'll probably get hints of what they're thinking when they announce and release new classes for 2e!

[@Wyrmshield]

Those adaptations use magic more like super powers than spellcasters. Unless their power is "magic," they get a small amount of things that are their signature and that's mostly what they stick with (Scanlan's Hand, Doric's rapid wild shapes, etc)

[@sethb3090]

I've been saying it since kineticist released, kineticist is how pf2e would have designed casters if there had never been previous casters in legacy editions of the game.

[@JWK1101]

@@Wyrmshield They certainly don't work like D&D spellcasters, but I don't think its right to say they don't work like spellcasters (except Doric, since she just changes shape) - basically no characters in fantasy work like D&D spellcasters.

[@woomod2445]

@@sethb3090 I disagree, the kinecisist is clearly a martial with caster flavoring. But i don't think every caster flavoring would have been that. I think the wizard and alchemist would have lickely remained the only PF casters as we know them by class fantasy. Both of whom "do anything" is on that list, but so is "because i'm really smart". There's also something to be said generally from the "rabbit from a hat" effect of literary casters that kinecisist doesn't capture. "oh let me cast this one spell outside my standard array and never mention it again for the entire book"

[@bretgregersen9826]

Loved this video! I can only imagine if they dropped any of these changes out to the community.

[@wopaah]

Other idea: when you play online, you only get one spell slot, but you can buy extra slots for $0.35 a piece or 5 for $1.50...

[@Creslin321]

Also, if you want to learn new spells, you can pay $5 for a "Fizban's Fabulous Box of Spells," which will contain one random spell. Where levels 1-3 are commons, 4-6 are uncommon, and 7-9 are rares.

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

Soon. Very soon.

[@peadarruane6582]

Don’t give WOTC ideas

[@TheIlluvatar619]

​@@Creslin321lootbox are forbidden in my country, so you should had a 10box subscription fees for a hasbroo only VPN, so i could by thoos packs. Please link it to dnd beyond where i spend 1200€ to by the character rules

[@TheIlluvatar619]

I meant "buy", but it's would be better to say "contribute"

[@Endarire]

I am also glad that the Jack Vance (Dying Earth) quote mentioned the 'generally useful' spells the character was preparing for unknown circumstances, and Prismatic Spray was among them. Thankee!

[@Semiotichazey]

Impossible! Nobody has ever played with such onerous rules! I don't play D&D to feel weak and vulnerable! 😉

[@KingYejob]

I like d4 hit dice, and the no max at level 1, but starting weak and getting strong doesn’t work when people start at the same level as everyone else instead of back at level 1

[@tbgold07]

Having played since 2nd edition, this all sounded familiar. I was just listening at work and not watching the screen, very funny.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Took me longer than it should have done to realize what you were doing, but your use of "pride and accomplishment" early on given that the company's currently headed by folk from the video game industry put me off guard.

[@Extradecentskeleton]

I feel like casters are stuck in a weird spot for me either they are to op, or they have so many bell and whistles to keep them balanced that playing it is a hassle.

[@Bublex-zp1bk]

I think the problem of spellcasting in DnD is that all of the spellsa re absolute. You can't interupt casting unless you have counterspell, you can't destroy any of the magical constructs, detect amgic detects all the magic, and detect poison detects all the poisons. Even AoE, they will deal damage even ona success unless you specifically have evasion or immunity to the damage. Unless they adress this issue, Wizards won't stop being OP.

[@ninalindqvist4032]

​@@Bublex-zp1bkit's not just a wizards thing, it's a casters thing. Clockwork and aberrant sorcs get about the same number of prepared spells PLUS metamagic, clerics get bs subclasses like Peace or Twilight as well as options for being tanky, good fighters or casters. I have never paid much attention to druids, but even spells like goodberry already screw up with any DM's attempt at survival stuff. Plus, spells like Healing Word are learned by most casters and make death super easy to avoid with the whole whack-a-mole thing. And lots of the mechanics that nerf casters are tedious so many tables seem to not even bother with them (such as providing weird and costly material components, or tracking V S M properly). There are too many level 1 spells that are just too good and too accessible through feats and "dipping". Plus the main wizard class advantage that other casters don't have is not needing to prepare rituals, but anyone could get that with the ritual caster feat (although it seems it'll be changed in OneDND)

[@JonRowlison]

Yes! The problem with magic is that magic users go from having 1 or 2 magic missiles a day at first level to casting violently deadly plagues, ice storms, no-save paralysis, and chain lightning in later levels. Meanwhile, the fighter goes from 1 melee attack to 3 at 10th level. Depending on what goodies your DM gives you, there's every incentive to want to have a party of magic users with some hired meat-shields in the front lines.

[@agilemind6241]

@@Bublex-zp1bk I disagree, the problem with spell casters is 4-fold at the moment: 1) combining magical defenses with normal armour - this makes casters tankier than anyone else by far. Either make it so spells can't be cast while wearing armour, or make most of the defensive spells not usable on characters wearing armour. 2) cancelling combats - there are too many powerful battlefield control spells that have significant durations without additional saves or other ways to escape them. These are just no fun for anyone other than the caster so should either be removed from the game or made far far easier to escape from. 3) too many spellslots - up until level 5-6, casters are perfectly fine in the current 5e. The problem is that beyond this level it's nearly impossible to use up all your spellslots during an adventuring day, thus there is no need to play strategically. Just spam spells day in day out, use them for all kinds of out of combat utility at the same time, because you've go so many slots why not? 4) universal spells - pretty much every caster class has at least 4 of these now, those spells that always work and always work great! It means that spell diversity is practically non-existent despite hundreds of different spells in the book, everyone takes the same set of 4-6 universally useful spells and casts those.

[@ethans9379]

@@Bublex-zp1bkI think spell duels could be a useful addition

[@AccessAccess]

Most of the DMs I played with during this era (1st and 2nd edition AD&D) used an alternate spell point system that was a bit more forgiving to lower level magic-users. You received several spell points per level, and the cost to cast a spell was the level squared plus one per dice rolled, so a spell like magic missile would cost 2sp at level 1 where only a single missile was fired. Wizards still had to memorize spells, which was limited by level, they just didn't "forget" a spell after casting it (short of some mishap). That said, actually adding spells to your repertoire was still difficult, and you did not automatically get any new spells when leveling up. So like he said, spellbooks, scrolls, and if you are very lucky being taught spells by other wizards was the only source of new spells. Clerics had their own restrictions, such as being limited to the spells of the diety they followed, but didn't have to hunt for spells in the same way that wizards did.

[@IgnoreMeImWrong]

Spell Point still exist in the 5e DMG.

[@roncorum5877]

Well Ron-You almost made me want to play 5E with these rule changes. Then I saw that this video was satirical. Back to Ad&d for me and my group. 😁

[@Ezasur]

Glad to see that april's fools arrived this early in 2024!

[@ironchestnutter]

They've really gone back to D&D's roots. Edit: It seems they're trying to get the OSR crowd.

[@Keovar]

No need to rewind 45 years for that. Let melee weapons, including natural ones, hit more often for more significant damage, and the monsters and martial classes will be more effective without having to mess with spells. Maybe let them hit for half damage on a 'miss' that's within 10 of a hit, and only 'no damage' on a crit miss. To ensure the monk isn't left out, be sure to include 'unarmed strike' as a type of natural weapon.

[@Hedron-Design]

My first thought was "Man this really sounds like first edition! why would they do this?" lol then as he got to the slower saving throw progression It dawned on me this was not a serious UA update leak lol. Wow got me good.

[@RichBensen]

As one of the (relatively few, I'd imagine) Gen-X viewers of this channel, I had the opportunity to participate in a years long play test of these rule variants back in the '80s. I can't really recommend them.

[@paavohirn3728]

As one having moved on to OSR interpreted old school D&D I have to point out that many of the old features make the game much more exciting to play and fun to run. Though there are a few aspects of the newer editions in keeping.

[@troybalster3687]

Started on 2e back the 80s myself. Still have a number of those old books on the shelf. 3 attacks every 2 rounds as a fighter. Not sure if we need to go that route though. The best art for a monster was the invisible stalker. Damn lazy person just left the box empty. Did love the binder packs for monsters though saved on costs just one binder and then extra pages.

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

Gen X here. Didn’t start until I was in college, but I started with AD&D. “sleep! Ok. I’ll stab the monsters who went to sleep. The rest of you party members who didn’t go to sleep take care of the rest of the monsters cause I’m done.” Good times. Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.

[@Endarire]

Having played years of 2e Infinity Engine games, it's a rocket tag and a sniper war from level 1 until you're powerful enough to take a hit.

[@JediNiyte]

Dear Ronald, This was hilarious. But you're going to Hell for it. LOL! 😆

[@Keraejis]

The way I was running my 5E homebrew, Wizards did not automatically get their spells on level up (except 1st level of course). They had to find the spell on a scroll, in a book, or from another wizard willing to teach them. Most medium to large cities had wizard academies where wizards could learn new spells. These academies were like guilds and demanded a guild fee and could at any time send the wizard on a mission for the guild. Not all spells were available at all academies so a wizard looking for a specific spell may need to travel to another city to learn that spell OR the academies also had research areas where wizards could research and learn spells that the guild did not have available and in some cases, create a new spell. Spell scrolls could also be purchased at the academies. If a wizard thinks they will level up while away from the city, they could purchase spell scrolls to learn while traveling after they leveled up or wait to come back to town and learn it for free... as long as their guild fees were up to date. This allowed me to control what spells were in the game. For example, Teleport, Planeshift, etc. would have really ruined the adventure during a specific time and so those were not available until much later in the game. Cantrips manifested out of the experiences of the wizard and so were acquired on the next full rest following a level up. Too harsh?

[@IgnoreMeImWrong]

Harsh would only come into play if you made it incredibly hard to find spells.

[@sanshinobi3664]

Yes.

[@ponytail336]

Guys. Guys it's a joke video. Please Please calm down

[@dominater369]

"sense of pride and accomplishment" wow, didn't expect anyone to use that phrase in marketing after the last time

[@IngloriousPirandello]

Wotc: "we need to manage the martial-caster unbalance" (NotFired)Employ:"may be could we look to older dnd editon?" Wotc: "Yes, use the old rules and brand it as new!!" (NotFired)Employ: -.-

[@Reinshark]

Unironically, this video is a great reminder of a lot of what I miss from my days playing 2e AD&D. I enjoyed the fantasy of magic being rare, risky, and powerful, instead of the “everyone has interchangeable superpowers” approach of most modern RPGs.

[@MrJerks93]

It's almost a complete 180 of how most fantasy fiction used to be written. The villain commands powerful and rare magics. Most of the group tend to be martially oriented, with one or two magic men in the mix. And yes, the risk to it was fun and required tactical thinking. Web collapsed in on itself if it didn't have opposing walls to anchor it. Entangle had to be in a natural space. Lightning bolts could break through walls, or ricochet back towards the caster. In all cases the players had to look for synergies and exploits in the shared environment instead of only looking at their character sheet. I honestly do like a lot of the design elements in 5e, but I do miss that old school feel.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I hope you caught that the lack of irony was intended! =D

[@w4iph]

Did I miss the just kidding part? I kind of scrubbed through the whole video trying to find it when I realized that this was just going over magic use in the dog AD&D

[@mikegould6590]

So....a return to 1st edition and earlier. Greeeeeeaaaat. The last edition to "balance" all types was 4th, but it's mechanics were so different from every other edition it caused an uproar. If WotC want to please everyone all the time, then I promise you, taking away 5Es casting method will simply cause players to exit. As an old grognard, I already get that feel from PF2E, and I'm keen to try some OSR. But my fellow 5E players will riot if I say "yeah, so, Vancian is back".

[@dustincoopermusic]

That was really funny! I am in a 2E AD&D game, and I feel the Wizard's pain. 35 years old, can only cast one spell (know two), so my concept is "Wizard School Dropout" lol Thanks for the vid!

[@bettsdn]

No chance those Con and Dex charts are real lol. Reminds me of third edition. The designers have shown they want less charts like that, not more.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@UrsulaMajor They are literally screenshots from 1st edition. He even cites the sources in the graphics.

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

@@UrsulaMajor 1st edition

[@Doobersribber]

The joke is the person who came up with the term "One D&D" got hired.

[@jamespuckett9753]

Wow, I love it. Thanks for the memories. I remember the iffy spell increase at leveling, and HATING it. I think that was the first rule dropped at a table between friends. Everyone got a fireball. And that Strategic Review article, woo-hoo!!

[@WhiteOwl1061]

In old school a low level magic user had to rely on charged magic items for multiple spell castings. A low level magic user might be gifted or loaned a wand or a few scrolls from their mentor. It was part of the role play.

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

😂 Nobody told my DMs. Level one. One day. One spell. That was it. Beyond that I had to out think the monsters and bad guys, and rely on my party members for survival. I only got magic items when we found them or stole them from dead bodies. 😂 My first and only AD&D magic user made it to lvl 9 before they retired and we started over with AD&D 2nd ed. Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.

[@peadarruane6582]

Nobody needs to know you are only first level. Lol. Strike down the goblin leader with a magic missile and threaten you’ll banish the rest to the astral plane and see if they call your bluff lol

[@kg4wwn]

@@peadarruane6582 I made SO much use of vials of water back in the day! Add a coloring agent, and then I could throw them at the ground in front of an enemy and KNOW that all the enemies would avoid that square for the rest of the battle.

[@michaelfaires-mcclellan472]

This would have made a good April video! 😂

[@JacksonOwex]

Who's going to tell Jeremy that "version" and "edition" are SYNONYMS! Dear Gods! I just realized that Jeremy is JUST like my dad! They use synonyms to say they aren't what you said the are!

[@IgnoreMeImWrong]

The magic system I use provides casting failure risks, a failure typically ends your use of that spell for the day. The Cantrips also don't level up, they are what they are forever, this makes multi-attack for martials much more appreciated.

[@cameronfreeman5592]

I was listening to this in the background, and when I head you start mentioning Vancian casting I had to go, "What year is this unearthed arcana from!?" Well-played.

[@myersmayhem2023]

I was pumped for a second before I got the joke lol I was like this sounds just like my AD&D wizard

[@blackshard641]

"Always the First to Die" begins playing quietly in the background

[@kennethmccomber7311]

Kind of early for April Fools isn’t

[@rafaelbordoni516]

Weirdly enough, Vancian Spellcasting coming back would be a great way to make wizards weaker and wizardier at the same time.

[@zudra2636]

Oh man, growing up on AD&D, this really takes me back. I always loved wizard archetypes in fiction as a kid, but boy did AD&D beat into me to just always play a fighter. I'm surprised max spell level didn't get a mention. Imagine you go through all the blood, sweat, and tears to get that magic-user to level 20, but are still capped at 6th level spells because you didn't roll high enough on your 3D6 in order intelligence.

[@BatoNozerca]

Honestly I think the game really went downhill with the greyhawk supplement adding the Thief, game was way better before that and I hope they remove them in dnd6e.

[@DanielMcVicker]

Finally someone got the joke.

[@FattyMcFox]

I doubt they will go for this, but If they go to Vancian 'fire and forget' then there is no reason not to switch to Pathfinder2E, which has a decent application of Vancian magic along with spontaneous casters.

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

Thing is, in pf2e the spells are not OP, unlike 5e, so they would basically have to nerf them into Golarion to make casters not OP.

[@FattyMcFox]

@@mr.cauliflower3536 I know. I have the book and the rules are free up on the ArchivesOfNethys. I would gladly take weaker magic that is less a pain in ass to play than the old crap that they are referencing. I never brought up spell power, just mechanical implementation.

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

@@FattyMcFox also, this is 100% a joke

[@gaarik]

@@FattyMcFox I'm 100% the opposite. Magic should be game breaking, that's the point, and I'm fine with complications as to how that works in the reality of the game. But then, I started with AD&D, so that probably colors my perceptions a bit.

[@FattyMcFox]

@@gaarik I started with AD&D as well. There is a reason i don't play it anymore.

[@Aerakade]

I was bebopping along and when you listed the stats not giving bonuses until 15 or so I realized what was happening.

[@Taricus]

In my 2nd edition AD&D game, I have a player with a necromancer--he's 5th lvl. Most of his spells aren't very attacky in the damaging way, so he has been playing very differently and being creative with his spells. He used to think damage spells were the only thing that mattered and now he's all into a different way of playing. It almost feels more wizard-like to not be just tossing fireballs around all over the place.

[@hoi-polloi1863]

Grognard: Are we being too tough? What if there's a reaction and our wimpy-ass kids allow 2 spells per round, d6 hit die, plate mail for wizards, and 5 "death saves" before actually kicking the bucket? Grognard #2: Nah, never happen.

[@AnaseSkyrider]

I think spellcasters in 5e need: 1. Half the slots they do now 2. Like a quarter of their level in slots regained on a short rest (smaller, infinite arcane recovery) 3. Concentration checks (not saves, actual constitution ability checks) to successfully cast a spell under certain conditions like grappled or prone

[@bobbycrosby9765]

HP inflation in modern D&D, in general, just makes the game more of a slog. I think it was much better when you started gaining trivial amounts of extra hp once you got past level ~10 or so.

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

It’s not a slog when your GM throws balance out the window and just hits harder and/or more often. Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

While not as fast and furious as old-school battles, PF2 shows that more HP doesn't necessarily have to mean more drawn-out - when characters have 80 HP you're facing monsters that can deal 50 damage in a single hit sometimes.

[@crunchydragontreats6692]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG The other GM in our group is eager to get us into PF2. I’m truly intrigued and can’t wait to see if it’s all the hype makes it out to be. Might be a while as we are currently alternating between my 5e game and their Exalted game. Personally, I’d love nothing more than to swap my 5e game over to PF2. That said. My lvl 2 5e party just ran into a creature capable of dulling out 32 hp in a single hit before crits. My monsters don’t always play by RAW. Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.

[@lordmew5]

​@@TheRulesLawyerRPGI never play pathfinder because I never liked 3rd edition so I have to ask how do survive system shocks like that?

[@josephpurdy8390]

There are some upsides. A magic-user had six 9th level spells at level 28.

[@3sgamestudio]

Imagine being a 400years old elf who was kings advisor, went to hell and back again, was teleporting cities in a cataclysmic events, helped to save the world 3 times over.. being level 20... but.. you worgot to wear high shooes in tall grass and a random rattle snake bite you. you die. instantly.

[@robintheviking8990]

Ahhh, back to the classics! I know some people might be resistant to this, but I can say that I've played some... similar... systems, and playing a Mage was a great time! Mostly... lol

[@Duskbreaker1780]

This feels like one big April fools joke

[@sortehuse]

Well, there is no law against making April fools jokes on january 2nd 🙂

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Lol, I was just private messaged asking me if this could be real.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I suffer from being a lawyer. Some people take me too seriously! lol

[@urustai]

Having started playing D&D with AD&D 2nd edition (the 1989 release, not the 2.5 remaster that came out in the mid to late 90s), & a collector of 1st edition AD&D & older material, it makes me glad that D&D has changed from its origins.

[@bluegolisano7768]

>sped up to 125% speed gamer already knew xD fucking beautiful man. edit; might be a good idea to tag stuff like this as satire in the future, that way if people eat the onion they 100% only have themselves to blame.

[@alfredg.3553]

The only way this makes sense is if they really are thinking about this, so they "leaked" this for a reaction.

[@skidnsf]

AD&D was the bomb. Ran a 8 month campaign last year BTB ( weapon vs ac, WS, psionics, etc) such an esoteric version of the game.

[@TimeTravelingBunnis]

I was like... This has to be a bit? Right? It is, cool. Now I'm chuckling. As a guy who was playing in the 80s, I was thinking, oh I know this story.

[@LordOz3]

I wish they'd bring back some of the old-school rules for casters.

[@Lionbug]

Already April 1st? It’s been a crazy year…

[@collin4555]

Something about the rule where the amount of rest you needed to regain spells scaled with the level of spells to regain really appeals to me. I doubt that it would do much in practice without changing a whole lot else, but it helps sell the themes that the older editions seemed to be going for, that these higher level spells were not casual resources, and also that characters at that sort of level are starting to grow beyond adventuring life. Poor guy's got to sleep half a day after casting one spell, he's getting too old for crawling through crypts!

[@gregdaley2661]

If you have a caster, and didn't hate it, please check out the OSRIC PDF, where you'll find all this goodness, in a rule system slightly more arcane than Vance's magic!

[@skywise001]

Id play a reboot of AD&D. You had player kits that added in all kinds of stuff. I had a Millitant Wizard who was proficient with a greatsword :D

[@warlok363]

I get it's a gag, but unironically Gygax was right.

[@WombatDave]

Reading my Rules Cyclopedia, I keep asking myself what any later edition has to actually make it in any way better. There's certainly a number of things missing from later editions.

[@MPLSVic]

Bringing me back to my childhood with this

[@crazyscotsman9327]

As a dm who has dmd for a 5e group of level 20 characters the undisputed winners in terms of power were the wizard and warlock the barbarian came in last place even with a homebrew to make him far stronger then normal ones magic users need nerfs bad. It is far better to nerf then to buff and make the game easily for gms to prepare dungeons and reasonable challenges. I've done so many where it was quite literally no problem for the party to just destroy the encounter I had planned.

[@Katsotomo]

It would be fun if a few of these changes were real. The BECMI and 1st edition games will always hold a special place in my heart.

[@gaarik]

Wow, these all sound like great changes! I can't wait for the new edition! Except... Why would I pay for something I already have? xD

[@flameloude]

This feels like a troll. The more i hear about the suggestions, the more bizarre it becomes

[@GavinRalston13]

My glasses are always crooked, too. I don't fix them because I can't see them anyway. They're everyone else's problem, and I'm good with that.

[@ObatongoSensei]

Bringing back some of those things would probably make the game a lot better, actually.

[@Eladdan]

I feel like someone's pulling your leg. This is pretty much going back in time or channeling Hackmaster.

[@-Xabash-]

You're four months early for these jokes.

[@BiggestGal]

As soon as I saw the term "prestidigitator" I knew something was fishy lol.

[@ronturner3598]

Bringing back minions and henchmen for wizards as a necessity and world element!!! yes.

[@ronturner3598]

All my 80s wizards had as many men-at-arms as they could afford.

[@starrius]

i remember my level 13 evocationist with 13 hp's yelling fireball!

[@ericcooke2661]

I have been reading 2nd ed recently, I guess that is when the gave spell casters bonus slots based off their main stat

[@glacialedge]

Thank you for the nostalgia! So many memories of my level 16 wizard in 2nd edition as well!

[@jmooreftw]

You had me for a while there. Then I went.. this sounds eerily familiar.

[@Creslin321]

This is a pretty massive shift in direction. I doubt any of this will ever get implemented, but it it was, it would move D&D really far away from the “tactical combat” game it has been morphing into since like 3e, and closer to how it was in the old 2e days.

[@wiggledixbubsy98]

I think I'd use these for my "brutal" games when I want it to feel really grounded and ASOIAF-esque

[@LordZeebee]

That's because it is. Or rather, it's even further back. These aren't actual changes, he's just reading the old rules from the ADnD edition...

[@wiggledixbubsy98]

@@LordZeebee I tuned out near the end of the video. Is he BSing and playing a prank on us?

[@Keovar]

When you have low HP and no armor, tactics are _more_ necessary, not less. It would become necessary to use a lot more crowd control and spells with long ranges.

[@guyfawkes8873]

So loot boxes to cast spells? Literally all I can think about when somebody says ‘sense of pride and accomplishment’…

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Lol. Caught on early on to the joke, as soon as he said that they where changing up the way stats worked back to the old system. Ah . . . the days of playing Baldur's gate 1&2 . . . nostalgia.

[@TheTerrainWizard]

I think someone pranked you! You’re describing the AD&D “magic users” aka 5e “wizards”! 😂😂😂

[@anthonynorman7545]

I wonder how many ppl looked at the video? It's very apparent what he's quoting lol

[@stefanjakubowski8222]

SHhhhhhhh! I love reading the comments Wait till he does the hit modifiers per armor for each weapon

[@20storiesunder]

Yes please! Arcane Casters should be squishy! Edit: boooooo you gave me hope.

[@user-zk3dx9dd6p]

Ok, it's January, not April.

[@StrinrathWorldofFantasyA-to3vh]

This sounds identical to what I remember from my AD&D 1 E play. Now I see the note it is satire. I was assuming the video would end in you stating that but was surprised when it didn't. So the pinned note below is cool.