Spy is weak, and that's okay

[@HintShot]

What annoys you most about playing Spy? I'm sure I barely scratched the surface of his gameplay issues. In any case, thank you for watching! And thank you for your continued support over this last crazy year of growth for my channel. As always, you can support my content and get cool benefits through my Patreon - www.patreon.com/hintshot And you can always join my Discord server to chat about anything and everything with me and other supporters - discord.gg/Z3PUnw8 See you in the next one. -H

[@spartanssword7782]

demokights with the tide turner

[@worstspytf2824]

I've always wanted to get into playing Spy but I suck to much to do so as I clearly make fun of in my name, but seriously, I find the process of getting really good at TF2 really exhausting, unforgiving and frustrating and I've honestly never really improved at all in my 400 hours of play and while I do suck, getting constantly matched with players with a few 1000 hours of playtime and constant team imbalances aren't helping or encouraging me to play this game more and let alone to get better at it so I find Spy's learning curve to just be seemingly flat out impossible.

[@JohnnyCrockpot]

Unconventional War Tactics

[@taylor-jv5ub]

the luck debuff, i can't walk within 2 miles of a sniper or I'll get sniped by accident

[@Simon........]

Definitely the hitboxes

[@MelonTF2]

6:01 your acting was so good, even the player who you disguised as belived that you are from their team

[@DankDimensionMemes]

Or they are just avarage causals xd

[@otsu3011]

@@DankDimensionMemes Or they are just average low fov enjoyers

[@OneFluffyKiriko]

cool to see you here! love your content man!

[@overtale4516]

Also the fact that your team deliberately shot at you to reinforce the point that you are an enemy

[@TrisSpy]

yeah pretty sure they're just unintelligent and hintshot did the bare minimum to not get killed

[@deadpunisher4584]

What annoys me as much is that the only way to act as the class I'm disguising as, I need to copy movement pattern, and ONLY movement patterns, nothing, not animations, not reload animations, nothing. Makes the entire disguise kit only and consistently viable if no one is looking at you, is very hard and unreliable to pull off copying perfectly movement patterns, everyone that sees a sniper never scoping or a heavy going to battle without revving, an engineer not upgrading his buildings, will get you killed in seconds. This is not high-risk high reward, this is the freaking Russian roulette, I hate to play spy that way, I want to act like a Spy, hell MEET THE SPY shows you how devastating he can be if he fools you, not "get a kill and die" I just want spy to follow it's concept and take full benefit over it. Not test your luck.

[@davidpico1579]

You can actually make a reload animation by reloading your revolver while disguesed

[@ryuseldonuts6489]

you can actually reload with your disguise if you reload with your revolver example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/raS0i3eMn7l-o7s

[@Appletank8]

@@davidpico1579 Yes, but it is kinda of janky, and you can only do one reload.

[@deadpunisher4584]

@@ryuseldonuts6489 Yes, by making reload cancel, which is more an inconvenience that anything else, I saw Sounds' take on that one, is too unintuitive for something you should be able to do normally. You lose one shot on the revolver, the animation can break cancelling itself, and the reload is slower than most weapons like the grenade launcher. Edit: I saw the video, and it shows the problem with the current "feign reload".

[@Medex2007]

I really hate the 'run in, get a kunai kill and dead ringer away' play style.

[@masonwhite3698]

7:13 Bless this poor engie. Man walked out of spawn to see his teleporter being sapped, with the spy actively shooting at it, then jumped on his teleporter wondering why it's not working.

[@lemonice]

5:08 "The best spy is the one that you and your enemy don't even see" Me, sitting in corner scared with cloak and dagger, never uncloaking: They love me!

[@FIVEBASKET]

Cloak and dagger experience

[@nightowl6055]

Until a pyro comes and decides to randomly burn up the whole room

[@Dejsun]

@@nightowl6055 It doesnt only happen indoors it happens freaking everywhere

[@angrydragonslayer]

I'm in the next corner over, also using the C&D The difference is that i've abused the diamondback and 4 rage-pyros are rapidly approaching

[@Black-yi7tp]

@@Dejsunbro i remember playing spy in casual THERE WAS THIS PYRO FUCKING SPINNING ON TOP OF THE CART THROWING FLAMES EVERYWHERE how am i supposed to stop him i just wait for my teammates to shot him but for some reason he stayed alive for SOOO LONG

[@valetc6479]

5:52 Can we just appreciate this clip where he just perfectly fool the enemy team

[@aghitsaplane4262]

Gotta give props as well to the soldier and pyro who shot at him to help the disguise seem more real

[@TrisSpy]

"perfectly" is a massive exaggeration

[@valetc6479]

@@TrisSpy ok noh mercy

[@ME0WMERE]

@@TrisSpy not really literally everyone saw him, but no one even shot at him then he killed the pyro and got away

[@BanermanArthropide]

EVEN THOUGH THE PERSON HE WAS DISGUISED AS WALKED RIGHT PAST HIM

[@Vershal]

One thing I have always wanted out of Spy is being able to mimic shooting/reloading with the disguise. It would be really cool. And makes the class even more interesting. Acting is something potentially really awesome for Spy, but you are just not given enough tools to do it reliably

[@ZayitsII]

I mean, you can mimic reloading with the usual button, at least, which helps when you’re pretending to be someone who’s expected to do that a lot, like soldier or demoman.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

You can reload. I think shooting would be bad. But having a fake button that does depending on class. Sniper scope, engie building carry, ect would be really cool. Also the way faking reloads works is annoying so a nicer way would be cool.

[@hagmoi737]

You could, in fact, mimic the reload animation of the class you’re disguised as. Just by reloading your revolver, it eill automaticly mimic the reloading animation.

[@ezraiguess4709]

Hit R with an unloaded revolver and you can RELOAD (but you can't mimic shooting sadly)

[@ezraiguess4709]

@@Kenny-wj4no so can regular spy..

[@IInferno]

It's hard to believe it's been a year since your video blew up, but it's lovely to see you still making content and enjoying doing so, here's to another year!

[@EpicSlash]

What would I do with spy? Give him the ability to replace his sapper with other gadgets, adding versatility to the class. Make it so he can give up his anti-engineer abilities to gain other abilities. Like you said, Spy's items are just percentage increases, I think its why people like the DR a lot also, its one of the few items Spy has that changes the play style.

[@protogenhorde8515]

To be honest that sounds like a great idea but then again, they would need to rebalance as something balanced so we don’t just pour Napalm on the already burning fire instead of helping

[@brain_cell]

YES WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN DONE

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

Valve deleted gunspy subclass in jungle inferno cuz it give the weakest class different playstyle (people said that spymains use old ambassador like sniper rifle but it false. Even the best EU ambassador highlander spy toast used it on a mid range. It's useless even on a midrange right now). Also nerf the razorback and jarate and southern hospitality too.

[@Raikuthedragon]

got some ideas about that, they works differently, but can still affect engi building effectiveness. a recon gadget: it's a gadget that highligts every enemies and buildings in a medium range, highligted buildings takes 30% more dmg, this tool can be placed anywhere, ground, ceiling, walls. only one at a time can be placed tho, and has a cooldown once placed. every class can destroy it, it has 300HP. the point is that it strenghten the support aspect of spy and directly helps your team by providing information to them, which perfectly fits for spy. smoke bombs: you throw them and enemies can't see inside the smoke, not even sentries. teamates can tho. should be used as an escape tool, support tool, orr to take out engi nest. every enemies inside the smoke is more vulnerable and takes mini crits, even buildings. the smoke cloud last 10 seconds, the range is small and has a cooldown. ink bombs: this one is more for escaping or offense, throw one at an enemy and it will just fill their screen with ink for 5 seconds, making harder for them to see. it's single target, you need to aim water balloons: here's a fun and unique one, you can throw 3 of them, they charge over time, you can throw them at building to disable them for 5 seconds, or throw them at a pyro to make him unable to use his flamethrower for 2 seconds, or to extinguish teamates/yourself. extinguishing a teamate will heal you 20hp, refill 20% cloak, and instant +50% charge on your balloons.

[@Small_child_punter]

when I was a newbie, spy felt like the strongest class ever. As I got better, I realize how far you need to walk to do anything as him. But I still love him. He’s fast, sneaky, and relentless. Just gotta keep running into the enemy lines until you kill someone.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

Nah you want to shoot the enemy with your revolver while still being nearby your teammates. I prefer Ambassador headshots since they're the most accurate at long ranges. This way opponents will be forced to run away or come to you where you can lure them into a trickstab or multiple teammates. Sneak in when you see a good opportunity, otherwise you're just wasting time and firepower. Unless it's pubs then do whatever you want lol.

[@shinobuoshino5066]

@@MK_ULTRA420 >long ranges >2 years ago lmao

[@elmaxoTF2]

That intro hit close to home, keep up the great videos man.

[@Tom-jg9de]

Oh hey the demo main

[@StickMaster500]

In terms of new Spy weapons, it would be interesting to give him a new revolver that gives him a tranquilliser gun that fires a weak single projectile that can mark enemies for death and/or make them be able to see throw walls to make Spy and even more supportive role

[@garysue1589]

Honestly, kinda god tier suggestion since revolver isn't all that used if you know how to trickstab and all well, pretty solid job man

[@chorosso5259]

I really like this idea, makes the sabotage mechanic spy already has even stronger and more supportive in a different way. A true pick class shuts down a single opponent, and i think this is good. Although i think it'd have to replace cloaking or something to be completely balanced.

[@turmspitzewerk]

TF2 classic's incarnation of the tranq gun makes the enemy colorblind, so it becomes hard to distinguish teams in a fight and more importantly makes it hard to know who the spy who just shot you is. it doesn't really work flawlessly since blu is a lighter shade than red, but its an interesting idea i think.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@chorosso5259 I agree with you that would be cool, but being able to reliably bodyshot low health targets is too useful as a Spy, especially enemy Scouts who really need a medkit. I think Spy needs a shotgun pistol like the LeMat Revolver, for close targets who are just outside of stabbing range, while still being balanced by having limited long range capability like the shotgun, and 6 shots instead of 10.

[@chorosso5259]

@@MK_ULTRA420 i mean spy's primary in the code is a shotgun i think, it's just locked out of use

[@kevinmai5125]

as a pyro main, I always cheer for those spies that manage to evade my flames with good movement they fucking deserve a win for that movement skill.

[@thekilla1234]

8:23 I love the idea of this. The idea that when you press the button, nothing appears to happen, but you know that somewhere in the world a Spy main is losing his shit.

[@FSRiko]

Spy needs the ability to use his disguise's weapons - to be able to play their animations without actually doing any damage, or healing anyone, etc.

[@FSRiko]

@Name in progress Then to make it more balanced, perhaps only muzzle flash would be imposed -- no projectiles would be visibly coming out of the fake weapon.

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

It just makes people more paranoia. Would be cool but still doesn't work. Just add spy walk from tf2classic, remove wallhacks, give deadringer and ambassador old stats (and bison too). Also bring back old enforcer and remove -33 less cloak for yer. Also bring back old spycicle stats or give the ability to cancel the jarate/madmilk, bleed, etc. Also fix deadringer bugs

[@m.roberts2783]

thats, already a thing, press reload with revolver to reload current diguised weapon, and press the apropiate buton + b to have disguise switch weapons

[@memesmemes3143]

YES YES YES !! valve pls

[@nakazaki_]

i think old amby and enfor is too much, they were a bit op@@Nibelungenwarmongers

[@Iteration456-8_codename_goblin]

So in a summary Spy’s “theoretical” effectiveness is completely fine and spy as a class doesn’t need anything But the core mechanics that surround spy and really the game itself indirectly nerf spy’s overall effectiveness

[@peterisawesomeplease]

Its just a bad argument though. Its not just the theoretical strength. If you actually look at comp HL games spy is a mid teir class based on kills and damage.

[@imaforceanature7297]

@@peterisawesomeplease nobody cares about competitive stats

[@peterisawesomeplease]

@@imaforceanature7297 Oh they are terrible. But they are also the only thing we have outside of few people personally compiling their public play stats. So its a bit disingenuous not to include it. But even anecdotally on uncletopia spies generally seem to out kill pyros and engies(a bit annoying to track because obviously spy points are inflated) and personally with 200 hours on spy I tend to do about as well as I manage on pyro despite having more time on pyro. And thats without accounting for the higher average importance of classes spies kill. Spy has been buffed to an insane degree and the bugs listed in this video are actually fairly rare.

[@ninjashot37]

​@@peterisawesomeplease Just because it's manageable doesn't mean the problems shouldn't be fixed. That just means it's not unplayable. I really do hope these spy bugs get fixed Maybe also add in some animations to disguise kits so you can use secondary effects of the classes you disguise as; like revving a minigun, airblasting (without the actual airblast of course), firing a medigun beam (that doesn't heal anyone) or scoping in a rifle. It could be attached to the special attack button currently only useful for medic in MvM.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

@@ninjashot37 Yea your right

[@seriamon]

I just love ur thumbnails and editing

[@ExTess]

I'm still waiting on the day that both Spy and Engineer get new utility items that changes fundamental aspects of their playstyles with minimal learning curves. People have been _begging_ for something to add to the disguise kit, watch, sapper, wrenches, or PDA and it would be neat to see alternative directions you could take the classes while still maintaining their primary roles. Engineer's entire design philosophy is based around the sentry's ability to provide area denial, so why not give him the ability to drop beartraps or barbed wire that temporarily slow players? Or let him place metal shields down instead of dispensers, so that there's more defense with loss of infinitely generating health and ammo. Maybe engineer could have a small manned turret instead of the sentry? Or we could replace the teleporter with pads that make other players move faster like Soldier's Disciplinary Action? For Spy, he's instead designed around sabotage. Today's way of doing that is via turning invisible and playing imposter syndrome, but there are other ways of distracting or frustrating players - smokescreens, duplicating yourself with holograms, warping short distances. Maybe instead of a sapper, you could use a jammer that temporarily swaps what team engineer buildings are on, but are destroyed in one hit of a wrench. Maybe spy can have a grappling belt that lets him stick to walls or ceilings Mission-Impossible style, but it has a severely limited range and has to charge after every use. As for any new knife ideas, I've got one: A one-use knife that doesn't backstab, but sticks to an enemy player. Spy can then detonate said knife so long as he doesn't die, with the explosion causing a small but significant amount of damage to the stuck and surrounding players (not enough to kill a player at full health, say). Stuck players can only get rid of the knife by having other players melee them (knife kind of acts like a sapper but for players instead of buildings). Spy cannot use another knife until stuck knife explodes (maybe he holds a detonator or something instead). Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[@baconultimate6045]

Hrrggg a knife that can't backstab but it crits players that have been shot by your gun within 2 seconds. It also grants a speed post on kill. It would make that soundsmith idea of a funny combo spy subclass.

[@ExTess]

@@baconultimate6045 2 ideas! Count 'em, two!

[@baconultimate6045]

@@ExTess if you mean there are alot you can do with spy melees then yeah spy could have some really fun subclasses if valve was brave enough to try em lol

[@Klyskada]

(before you read, keep in mind that my memory is shit.) In regards to the engineer stuff, i faintly remember something about Valve actually considering (very early on in TF2's life i think) something like the speed pads and something that replaced the dispenser (area repair building i think?) but they were scrapped due to Valve basically deciding that it hurt team cohesion to allow the engie to not run dispenser, and the speed pads were considered a worse option. Also, the manned gun idea probably wont ever come to fruition due to the current TF2 dev team size, that being a basic skeleton crew to my knowledge.

[@nightowl6055]

@@Klyskada Im pretty sure its just the alien bread and the sandvich working on the game now

[@miodek9323]

10:00 I strongly disagree with calling the walk speed a problem rather than a "feature". Disguising as scout, a class faster than spy should slow you down, because if disguising as a class faster than your normal speed would completely break the balance of spy, since you could just disguise as scout and bam: you are suddenly way faster than you should be, allowing you to perform matador stabs, cornerstabs, dropstabs, stairstabs and pretty much all kinds of stabs that you can think of WAY faster. +disguising as scout gives you the perk of changing hitboxes, so less experienced snipers will have hard times headshotting you.

[@hiei7682]

Just to point out some things: 1- Medic (the strongest class in the game) can actually gain the same speed as scout when he's healing him, so why can't Spy (the weakest one) get the same boost? 2- Even with that misleading hitbox, you're still going to get disintegrated by everything else, so that's kinda negligible as a plus.

[@HintShot]

Perfectly fair argument. This point was more just to point out another inconsistency in Spy’s play style, but honestly there isn’t much that can be done about it that wouldn’t make it worse.

[@bloodifang]

I think the "spy sprint" feature added in tf2c was amazing solution to the issue, it validates other disguises by letting you hold shift whenever you need to move at normal spy speed. spy should never go over its own speed limit by just walking, but i do think that being forced to stick to a slower speed invalidates a lot of disguises in his kit.

[@GiRR007]

@@bloodifang I would give players something for disguising instead of taking away the downsides of disguising.

[@ozone_au]

@@hiei7682 1.because spy is already janky as is with backstab registration, and the added speed would push spy's backstab mechanics into the realm of fully fucked rather than annoying at times. alternatively, medic only gets the added speed to keep up - he only gets the added speed whilst healing scout and such can't use the speed to attack other players with an unfair advantage. 2. I agree with you mostly here, but bear in mind not everything has to be viable in spy's toolkit.

[@themainman8754]

What if the observer spy WAS a subclass.... Hear me out, in a game called Dead by Daylight, some killers have a stalk feature where they level up their stats based on how long they stalk their prey. Combining that idea with the idea of a knife that cant backstab... maybe a new weapon could be a camera! Slowly admiring enemies while decloaked until you get a stat bonus that increases spy's effectiveness: More gun damage, faster sapping speed, higher max health. It would ENCOURAGE being "apart of the enemy" for an extended period of time! P.S. I feel the your eternal reward should be a subclass in itself but valve's idea of implementing the idea was bad

[@MK_ULTRA420]

The problem with that is Pyros love Spy-checking teammates who aren't doing anything. I'll shoot flares at them just for practice. It's a good idea but I think the camera would be another inventory filler item. Maybe if it was usable while cloaked it could work but trading that backstab is a very hard sell.

[@jasonparker3925]

@@MK_ULTRA420 How about a sapper replacement with an invisible circumference that gives away enemies and their positions? Think of a Soldier backpack, so if you walk past everyone they are shown past walls for as long as they are in that ring. And as a bonus, it works through walls. F2Ps can use this as an alt to voice chat, and works with the idea of a Spy relaying information.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@jasonparker3925 So basically local wall hacks for allies? I like that idea, especially when there are no Engineers on the enemy team.

[@jasonparker3925]

@@MK_ULTRA420 Well, yes, but to like I said it has a relatively small area of affect, like Soldier’s backpack, so you have to walk around disguised or hide behind cover. Also, I thought it would also be nice if the affect worked on enemy buildings, because if Spy can’t sap them, he should at least be able to notify his team where they are.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@jasonparker3925 The only thing it needs is a bigger area of effect since Spy isn't providing any buffs, and any ally that close who isn't shooting, healing or building gets spy checked. Then it would be a great alternative to the sapper!

[@roomba6071]

imagine if the kunai didn’t have a health cap… it would be a nightmare

[@supremecalamitas342]

*x10 intensifies*

[@koboldparty4708]

@@supremecalamitas342 *laughs in x100*

[@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927]

@@koboldparty4708 snorts frenchly in x1000

[@Sethilliano]

@@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927 cries in x-1

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

Imagine if the blackbox didn't have a health cap...

[@jasonparker3925]

I love Spy because it makes me feel useful. When I was just a f2p Spy was my most played class because he didn’t require the most skill for beginners. I don’t need flick aim or map memorization, I just find the enemy top player, flow him from behind, uncloak and disguise, stay to his side, and stab him as soon as he starts fighting. One of the best parts of Spy is weakening the enemy team to help your own push. All those times I stab a Medic and Heavy right before they Uber, to sapping the sentry on last just as your team pushes in without Uber. A classic is stabbing the Sniper and watching your Heavy mow down his foes from your post as you realize you saved his life. But the best feeling of all is when you get so far in that you can stab teammates as they spawn, and keep the front lines in your team’s favor until they cap. I’m also okay with Spy being weak, because the handicap of his low head to head combat is the best reminder of the reason I love Spy, I play him for his unique ratio of strategy over skill.

[@GiRR007]

When it comes to hit registration something that basically removes fail stabs is turning up your interp settings to the max so the game updates as frequently as possible. But yeah disguise kits usefulness is one of the biggest problems for spy.

[@GiRR007]

@unsubtract Well I did say basically. Cant always have enemies playing on the same interp settings as you, but it does help a whole lot.

[@gottagofastfaster]

You know one of those who uses high interp are usually cheaters because they also have aimbot on ambassador. Now I see force of nature scouts double taping with wall hacks.

[@GiRR007]

@@gottagofastfaster Hm, that's interesting.

[@dtweeb128]

This usually gets seen as interp hacking i think. You can get kicked from uncle topia for it

[@ryanhernandez8324]

@@gottagofastfaster what's double taping

[@iwasntfeelingcreative]

Ok but engineers still cuter

[@SharkBeret]

On the flip side, I think the most fun part about playing spy is those moments where your disguise COMPLETELY fools enemy players because of your movement, for example, walking backwards instead of forwards to seem like you’re an actual teammate that’s retreating, like you did at 5:51. Small mindgames with spy like that are the most fun part about it, but sadly, they seldom make good clips for my videos, so I don’t really have a way to showcase them.

[@Charlieweddle]

I do think some minor tweaks for Spy to bring him just a bit more in-line with other classes would be totally fair and justified, such as a slightly tweaked decloak volume to put it more in line to its pre-nerfed volume, and a tighter revolver spread to make it a more accurate mid range weapon would both do amazing things for the class and allow them to function better as a high priority elimination choice. But I think my big issue is simply still anything spy can do Sniper can do better at the peak of their class potential. Getting Spy closer in-line with Sniper's assassination role by encouraging him to be able to be a bit closer/fight just a touch harder with his primary could maybe help decrease the gaps they hold. That said I still will seethe eternally about Homewrecker and Razorback existing and never will forgive the developers for thinking those were good, well thought out ideas.

[@и_что-р7т]

If you have problems with snipers with razorbacks just pick ambassador, decloak behind them and shoot them in the face two times

[@Charlieweddle]

@@и_что-р7т My problems is the principle of the item existing in the first place. one of the things that made this game amazing with unlocks was there was no total shut down object that single targeted a class, with the closest thing at one point being Bonk helping you body sentries for a bit. But then suddenly homewrecker and razorback come out of the woodwork to shut down one class and its intended purpose. That's bad design. Sure you can just shoot the sniper but at the same time if a sniper is using a razorback on a coordinated team, then he's going to be by a sentry or some other form of defense that will force you to go one to one on the sniper. And when that happens, the sniper can respawn, waddle 3 inches out of spawn, and bog the game down all over again because he wore one simple item.

[@и_что-р7т]

@@Charlieweddle I would like to hear what you think about spycicle

[@Charlieweddle]

@@и_что-р7т I legit have issues with it too. It's a weapon I don't really care for personally since usually if I'm on fire I want to at least backstab the target I had set my sights on first before dying, but I think counter-counter weapons like that are trying to slap a band-aid on a problem, rather than encouraging good habits that stop you from being in that position in the first place. The only fun thing about it is confusing pyros, and even then my entertainment isn't worth us being in a world where spy gets his own pseudo razorback just because.

[@deadpunisher4584]

At least the only exception to this is the Sapper itself, since is part of the designs of the class, Spy was thought as one of the counters to Engineer, taking down buildings is a vital part of spy.

[@natro579]

With the new knife, the one that does 0 damage, i have an idea for it. Maybe it could, on backstab, not notify the enemy being backstabbed (manually,) and instead leaving a debuff or such (marked for death, etc). i know this would probably have a lot of problems and would probably be overshadowed by most spy weapons but this is just an idea i had while thinking about it.

[@user-bo6vy5eg8g]

The only real problem with this is that leaving a debuff is just worse then straight up killing his opponent

[@St4r_Str1ker]

Maybe it could leave a debuff but also retain the disguise. So you would not raise suspicion, but still actively support your team.

[@ivantan2841]

@@St4r_Str1ker enemies can wonder why they suddenly get debuffed, turn around and shoot. Spy gets killed trying to be a fan o war scout, enemy is still alive

[@douglewis7946]

I'm the type that likes to speculate on big sweeping changes that could be made to a class to improve their playstyle. And I don't neccessarily think Spy *has* to be limited to one particular playstyle. Giving him a few extra options in his kit to give him less effective but contextually useful contingencies would do wonders for his gameplay loop. For one, being able to press R with your knife out to switch to a throwing stance. If you throw a knife at the enemy and it hits their back, it counts as a crit, but not neccessarily an instant kill, and you'll be out a knife for a few seconds icepick-style. Second, make all his Revolvers sub-Ambassador and give them mini-crits on headshots. Now the Spy has a fighting chance if things go south - although any respectable combat class should still be able to mop the floor with him. Something that should have been a feature before - give the Spy the ability to feign shooting and reloading their disguised character's weapon. And maybe give a faint silhouette of their model so the Spy has a better idea of what they look like they're doing. Lastly, Spy's a support class, and what if we leaned into that? The Sappers have been used exclusively to sap Engineer buildings, but what if they were good for something else? Imagine if you could like place them on walls and be able to reveal enemy locations through walls to your team, or maybe even be able to listen in on enemy comms if they're nearby. EDIT: What if the comms things was a feature exclusive to the Red Tape Recorder?? It wouldn't make it...*good*, but it'd give it another niche to play into.

[@nino7771cp]

Never has a video reached so far into my soul to perfectly touch on and summarize 8+ years of pain and suffering while learning what I still consider as my favorite character in all of gaming I feel understood lol, amazing video

[@genghisdingus]

Imagine this: A spy watch that ubers spy instead of making him invisible. (of course, he can't attack during it)

[@witsby]

because of my aggressive style of playing spy i find myself dying a lot by random crits and a competent enemy team that is camping a payload point. if so i just change from deadringer to invis watch and play slightly reserved, no real different playstyle

[@SqwimpyTF]

As a *very* small content creator myself everytime I watch a video I have such an appreciation for it as that editing must have taken a long time and everything is so smooth and the background music is at just the right volume and.... It's so prefect.

[@2I377I]

I feel like to fix the problem of spy’s walkspeed when disguised as scout, medic, or demoknight is to give the YER the ability to go faster then normal when disguised as something with a higher walkspeed, which would make the YER more useful, and would also work with the backstab mechanic of the knife

[@flanxi]

For a moment, I thought this would be a repeat of Spy being the weakest class but the afterthought of trying to fix the class, making it less quote on quote "weak". Some were good and some I would disagree but overall, very thoughtful video, keep it coming 👍

[@thejayswordgaming7645]

8:06 this is one of the few things in tf2 that can get me screaming at my monitor, staring at a spy and then he just walks at me and I fall over dead

[@BrckPrgm13]

I once thought of a new weapon for the spy, replacing the gun : THROWING KNIVES ! It's a cooldown medium range projectile (think of it as a flying guillotine with less range) that would deal melee damage except on backs, which would do a critical hit (not an instant kill, mind you, just 195 damage). It would take 20-15 sec to recharge, unless you backstab someone with your actual knife. I'm not at all sure of the balance of the weapon, but hey, it's just an idea. So the idea is to trade your ability to have ranged weak attacks when you want for ranged attacks that can be devastating every now and then. It'll also help the discretion, as you will have the ability to kill from a safe, far away place from where the ennemies are (but still, it's just 195, so in certain cases, will not suffice.). Tell me if you think it's a good idea, if someone already thought of something like it, or if you have other ideas for weapons that would change spy's gameplay. (like replacing entirely one of his ability for another, exemple : cannot disguise, but can act while being invisible, and lose all invisibility for a short time after killing someone leaving you overdrawn to the entire enemy team.)

[@GiRR007]

I wouldn't say spy being in the support category is accurate, he's more offensive than he is supportive, he just isn't that good at being offensive but I would say there are ways to improve spy without make him less fun/fulfilling to play, and with out turning him into a class that goes in guns first.

[@HintShot]

Whether he’s good at it or not, Valve intended Spy to be a support class, hence his category. Compared to the other offensive classes, I would not say he fits in. And I’m sure there are ways to improve him without taking away from his play style, but right now I would prefer straight fixes to his inconsistencies and mechanics. Substantially changing how he works, whilst introducing the possibility of new bugs, would still leave a lot of these problems in the game.

[@Appletank8]

Both Sniper and Spy kinda share the same role, targeted elimination of a singular person. The difference is that Spy has to go into melee range to do it.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

Use him when your team pushes... the enemies will be to focused to turn around or if they do to stop you from instant killing them then suddenly they have their backs to your entire team. If you play as a team... his role is supportive. Like the Medic he is best used with others.

[@GiRR007]

@@Buglin_Burger7878 Thing is, giving any class the element of surprise always is gonna make them perform better, so when you give that to other classes that are already better than spy at killing people he still doesn't stackup. What you described isn't a type of "support" that is exclusive to spy necessarily.

[@Appletank8]

@@Buglin_Burger7878 to quote the eternal lazy purple, every class fights better when they don't know you're there. the sniper can run away because generally he's at long range. when spy gets found out, he's usually in enemy territory

[@durrbill]

finally got around to watching, great vid! was considering something like this myself but you put it even better than i could have. easily my favorite part of spy overall is overcoming all the odds and ends against you, and you put that on show here really well. keep up the good stuff

[@datonedood3791]

*i have a spy sapper idea:* think payday 2's ECM jammer, -it will disable any building or medic's ability to uber (not during an uber though) it must be placed on the item in question, meaning you will have to "backsapp" the medic or use it like a regular sapper for buildings -for like 10-15 seconds, -but it will do no damage -it takes heavily reduced damage -and be on a damage delay like the gas passer or banners, -kills will recharge it, not straight damage, maybe 3-5

[@manologamerss5801]

I think the weapon I'd most like to add to TF2, would be a sapper that harms buildings half as fast, but gives you a faster decloak.

[@gonnachangemychannel9449]

or make it not visible for PDA till its like 50% hp left

[@yugureyt]

9:39 Medics are meant to counter spies. They're the eyes, and callouts of a team, which is spies greatest weakness overall inconsistencies aside since it usually depends on ping, as a support class you're usually doomed to always try to be aware of yourself far more than the enemy. After all, it only makes sense since you're not focused on head-on collision to fight mano-a-mano and see who's the stronger man. The reliability comes down to your own ability on juggling everything, and thats just another tidbit that makes the game so fun, and challenging glad you're not a ping spy though, god forbid. we need a nerf to vaccinator, payloadpocket short circuits, ping spies, and some other broken cheap tactics like that, but that's a different topic.

[@heavy_killer]

I don't really agree with you. Vaccinator can be beaten by spies, demoknights and using combos (flamethrower, shotgun for example). Shortcircuit engineers on payload can be destroyed with non-projectile weapons and demoknights. Tf2 designed to be like rock paper scissors. Blue team with 4 engineers builds nest in the intel room? So red gets spy or or uber to destroy engineers. The only issue you mentioned is ping spies that are abusing interp settings. I know this comment is old and you could changed your opinion.

[@selah6778]

Honestly, I think the only thing spy needs other than a varied playstyle is some kind afterburn immunity and no particles (mad milk, jarate, bubbles under water, ect) while invis. Overall just invisibility not being ruined by everything.

[@nightowl6055]

The spy already has afterburn immunity with the spycicle

[@double4190]

"Choosing the right target" *Backstabs f2p demo who has no idea what he's doing*

[@irarelyupload6930]

lol that was me looking for him. As soon as I walked backwards and felt collision I knew I was dead.

[@facepunch9665]

I’d love to see a sapper that interacts with other classes, or even one that gives the spy a universal utility like a slowdown trap or some kind of small, instantaneous mobility tool. Nothing drastic, but the sapper could be be swapped out with lots of cool tools that give spy more ways to engage a situation

[@aidelai4098]

Spy is such a unique class to fight if you know how they trickstab when they strike and where they hide it's very easy to counter them but very rarely you come across a spy that just pub stomps the enemy team they know where the hit boxes and how to abuse the shit out of them

[@WingsAboveCS]

"there is no strongest class" **sniper would like to know your location** (jk, sniper already knows your location)

[@ChevalierSilver]

I don't understand the argument that spy, when disguised as a scout, should also mimic scouts speed. This would be abused to hell

[@goner2817]

I don't really think Spy has any subclasses, but I do think the way he plays can be anywhere from "Loiter around the enemy spawn sapping teleporters and backstabbing dummies" to "Hyper-aggressive frontline matador stabs with big earner and dead ringer"

[@heavy_killer]

The only supclass spy has is gunspy.

[@beautifulnova6088]

I've always wanted a watch that replaces spy's cloak with a way to make disguises more convincing, such as the ability to make the disguise fire its weapon. You could even make it be a gimmicky meme loadout by making the weapon actually function as a shittier version of what you're disguised as that can still damage enemies. Mimic Spy 2022.

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

While I still believe Heavy is in most desperate need of an update, Spy is DEFINITELY the next one up who could use a Jungle-Inferno-styled rework.

[@lucasvandenberg6349]

Would be cool if spy could move faster(like a scout) and if he could hear the opponent's voice chat(to be an actual spy). Also having friendly fire would be kinda cool.

[@bucketofcalzones457]

The Spysycle is in the perfect place to be rebalanced into a gun spy subclass item. Make it automatically trigger when you are set on fire if you have your gun out, put it on cooldown when you land a stab, And maybe make your gun more accurate and a faster reload.

[@blacklight683]

15:32 my luck in a nutshell

[@Muffled_voice]

4:00 is what makes a spy main insanely laugh at "WHAT ARE THE ODDS!" I know this because that was my reaction.

[@johnx140]

5:57 damn bro, that was such a oportunity to make a spy play. Go to the wall for cover at the left and get close to the chokepoint, call your medic and pretend that youre going to kill your team as a Pyro M1+Wing, and then when the medic follows you while youre disguised as a Pyro, turn around and with the help fo the soldier kill the medic with the pistol while going into your team for safety, mind games bro!

[@ecluvost]

Whenever I play spy, I just never use the disguise kit since it's just broken. I only use it to sap sentries after uncloaking for my team to push while the ennemies kills me 20 times and then I switch back to the class I was playing before.

[@the_real_boogeyman]

For once I can actually say I was here before you blew up, I'm glad to see you've gotten so much support since then! Years go by so fast...

[@calebbarnhouse496]

What spy could use is a buff to his melee damage, him getting into close range should be at the very least useful for him outside of maybe getting a soldier killing himself, so letting him deal good damage if you get robbed of your backstab or if your in melee range, where most the classes have some way of dealing with you very effectively

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

If there was an item that replaced your cloak with an HP-boosting energy-shield, then Gunspy would immediately become viable.

[@stratacat]

Gunspy is viable

[@Warcrafter4]

It was viable...Then "The Ambassador" and "The Enforcer" both got nerfed. Spy is one of the only classes to actively lose play-styles over time instead of gaining them.

[@stratacat]

@@Warcrafter4 it's still viable with stock

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

@@Warcrafter4 | T'be fair, being able to headshot people from across the map WAS too strong. As for the Enforcer, I don't know much about it, besides that it used to be considered horribly overpowered. If the gun was strong enough to make a Spy ignoring the majority of his tools viable, then it decidedly needed a nerf. What Spy needs is new tools that empowers his revolver while limiting his stealth. Being able to use both stealth AND be viable in head-to-head combat would make the character broken.

[@thewindwakinghero7423]

8:00 hit registration in general I landed 10 market gardens (the most I've ever gotten in a game is 1) all of the played the sound, and then did no damage

[@hacobjansen]

I actually think that being slow when you're disguised as scout works, mainly because all of the classes more or less have different walk speeds, and if spy could adjust how fast he could run on the spot, that would be a little bit overpowered for situations where you need to make a quick escape. And while I am aware that there are weapons such as the dead ringer and the big earner that can make you faster for a short period of time, they give you a boost as a reward for getting out of situations.

[@faceless2302]

I don't see why this couldn't be handled like every other disguise in the game, where cloak sets you to Spy's default speed. You only get the Scout speed bonus when you're actively performing a Scout disguise for everyone to see.

[@dimitridan8112]

I think it's mostly because then people would disguise as scout all the time to catch up to other players more easily, perform more advanced map parkour (although that's not really bad, quite the contrary actually) and most importantly, it'd make trickstabs stupidly easy. The BE speed boost is an absolutely insane help for trickstabs of all kind, and good spies can very easily 1v4 with it after getting a backstabs

[@faceless2302]

@@dimitridan8112 To me this seems like a Scout disguise meta would be a self regulating thing, just another learning curve for players to remember before they start religiously spychecking every Scout they see. Give it a week and players would never look at a Scout the same way again

[@bigmanbarry2299]

Congrats on the channel, you’re slowly figuring out how to rocket into popularity. Keep it up, lovin the videos

[@HarunX57zt]

You deserved all the recognition you got man, absolutely amazing stuff man

[@EdibleOneNine]

I usually like to disguise as my own teammates to avoid the "wall hacks" from the respawning enemies, then switch since disguising is quicker. It's even funnier when disguise as your team's medic and a sniper sees you hide behind a wall. They then tunnel-vision/perma-scoped on that one wall as you slip through invisibly.

[@tap5263]

I always will believe that if they made a watch for spy that litteraly just gives you another revolver in your off hand at all times and buffs your health it would be an extremely fun subclass

[@heavy_killer]

So... Spy would take more damage before dying and deal 130 damage at close range with stock revolver.

[@MintyPinty]

Having a knife that increases movement speed while out and doesn't backstab would make gun spy more fast paced and escape more varied.

[@Chodor101]

I think it would be cool if spies could spawn somewhere in the middle of the map with I dunno 3 seconds of invisibility, invulnerability, being allowed to pass through enemies and being UNABLE to use weapons for this period of time. This could be unbalanced as hell but would make sneaking to enemy base / spawn easier and allow you to blend with surrounding more naturally.

[@SomebodysLife]

The thing that annoys me is people turning around at perfect times, this happens way too much it’s scary-

[@poacherthenn]

i think giving spy an extra 25hp would make him way more fun to play while keeping him a bit weak

[@evilyoshimaster]

An idea I had for Spy to change up his playstyle is giving him a variety of sabotoge focused tools for the "sapper" slot, so your not as limited to a highly Anti-Engie playstyle. For example, instead of a sapper, you could take in Cyanide capsules that can be used on health packs, so the next time an enemy grabs it, they get poisoned and take Damage over time. Or maybe a noise dampener, that can be placed on the ground to block sound from a specific area allow you to create safe spots to uncloak, help your louder teamates flank or hide your Medic's uber call/ Heavy food eating sound. Or lastly, a good old fashioned timed pipe bomb, that gives spy a placable effective damage tool that can one shot sentries. But it has a decently long fuse and can be easily destroyed by a single enemy meelee swing if found, so you still have plan ahead.

[@infinitedreamer9359]

I like this approach.I don't know a lot about TF2,but from the little I know about Spy's gameplay it makes no sense why you're so limited in options in how you sabotage the enemy. Spy is supposed to sabotage the enemy team and it sounds boring that the only option you have for that are a backstab, disguises, or sapper. And the disguises IMO don't seem that useful since all experienced players know how to look for spies and tricking new players with it only work the first few times.

[@elitely6748]

Another banger video. I really love to play spy along with demo, but the disguise kit is useless unless it's against sentries. I can only use it to fool someone for a few seconds to backstab. If you could scope as sniper rev as heavy, or just shoot blanks with your disguise's weapon I'd be very happy. And as you already said new weapons to refresh Spy's playstyle would be a wonderful addition.

[@_theknighthawk_7018]

Pyro is scum. He is the strongest class BY FAR. Solder? = airblast Demo? = airblast Demokight? = airblast? Spy = litterly made to counter Scout = litterly made to counter Medic = come on guys...it a freaking medic. 1 vs 1 (standard weapons) and pyro always wins Engie = *sentry is weakness, the engie himself doesn't stand a chance* Sniper = *weakness* Heavy = *weakness* Most other classes have more then 3 weaknesses

[@AnemoneMeer]

Personally, I'd give him a swap speed boost on top of the bug fixes. Just a general, across the board swap speed buff of like 10% or so. Simply being able to pull your revolver faster after a backstab fails or being able to more quickly stab and sap would make things more consistent for spy in situations where you mess up on a winning situation, be it from personal error or game issues.

[@casuallyweird4838]

I’m late to the TF2 party but I’ve been watching content about it for a few years. A class I always liked was spy, because I enjoy stealth kills (I’m a Assassin’s Creed veteran). It really didn’t tale long for me to realize how bad the class plays in most encounters.. and the failstabs?.. Dear God way too many hits didn’t get registered💀 All that’s left is to either quit or get good. But just like my virginity, I never loose (the drive to keep going)! Battle Engie is based af

[@GreekAsTheGods]

Spy is definitely not the weakest class in the game. They have 2 of the top 5 most broken weapons in the game right now, only after Wrangler, Short Circuit, and Vaccinator (those being Diamondback and Kunai).

[@SpitfiretheCat16]

Spy weapon ideas to change things up: MAB-Mann's Macerator - 'Revolver' Actually a non-revolver pistol, visually. Cannot get headshots, but each successful shot you make on the same target does 15% more damage, resetting on hitting something else, missing, or reloading. Takes longer to delete a player from the game, but is also a reliable means to deal a lot of damage with your primary without having to hit somebody in the head while you're both freaking the fuck out at having noticed each other. Rewards good aim and picking, like Spy weapons should, but is also like a Panic Attack for Spy, allowing you to get yourself out of a corner in the pinch with out falling into the cycle of 'kill and die'. Tactician's Tiger Claw - Knife A tacticool CoD-style karambit that removes backstabs, but trades them for _face_ stabs, essentially allowing you to get headshots with a knife. Instead of relying on "in front" vs "behind" hit registration, it just records hits in the head hitbox or not. 'Lore'-wise, you'd be slitting people's throats instead of stabbing them in the back, so you can still get people from behind with it, but it traits less directional crit registration for requiring you to literally aim with a knife. Another weapon ideally meant for breaking the one-kill-and-die cycle, as your victim turning around doesn't make them immune to instant death; specifically, you wouldn't guaranteed whiff that first swing and leave yourself open. Klaxon Cracker - Sapper Honestly just a fix for the RTR, presented here as its own item. Makes an incredibly loud and obnoxious noise when activated, saps more slowly than the regular sapper, _but doesn't alert the Engineer in their HUD._ If an Engie is away from their nest, or if a Battle Engie is going with the 'set it and forget it' style of play with their mini sentries, you can keep their buildings out of play for longer than a regular sapper without them noticing or being able to rebuild. Yes it'd make a loud noise, alerting nearby Engineers and other players, but that's the balancing part of the sidegrade, as this would be a sapper meant to annoy and obfuscate rather than actively destroy buildings. Plus, wouldn't that make a great distraction for getting a few picks in- the local Pybro busies himself whacking away your airhorn of a sapper, leaving his back perfectly exposed for your knife. Still struggling to come up with a new watch, maybe one that operates on a timer that doesn't let you choose when you cloak or decloak, or one that lets you attack while cloaked but has an abysmal recharge rate.

[@MrAlias-oc8uk]

I am very impressed by Spy Mains, as a Medic Main. Or frightened. What are you *thinking?* From one of the two weakest classes in the game in 1v1 combat to the other, let's compare. Medic is brainless to pick up, brainy to master, and powerful from a newbie whose skills are scarcely better than that of a Medic Healbot, to, I'd say, outright broken with certain weapons and a masterful Medic. Medic's case for why anyone should play him is concise: *Medic is the strongest.* That power is addicting. Sophisticated gameplay and unlimited power is Medic's draw. Sure, there's the meme that Medics permanently suffer from PTSD from Scunts and the constant pressing of that E button, but there's just as many people that appreciate your presence. Playing Medic can be suffering sometimes, but it's worth it when the power you obtain, even when you play poorly, is beyond anything the others can do, except maybe Sniper. Let's contrast with Spy. Spy is difficult to pick up, difficult to master, and outright useless from a newbie, and you have to learn him to a degree much greater than that of say, Medic, to contribute to the team as much as the others do. Spy's case for why anyone should play him is long, convoluted (though Hintshot makes an excellent case for him in this Video), and marred by the hellish suffering that is playing Spy for a new player. Spy is the least forgiving Class in the game, and this is also why I think the Dead Ringer is virtually unusable in its current state; it makes an unforgiving class even _less_ forgiving by taking away the ability to cloak on demand to escape danger, but maybe that's just my reliance on the Cloak and Dagger talking. Why would anyone play him? You lot do. And I respect Spy Mains for that. As for me, I think I'll keep my Ubersaw Random Crits. Thanks for the 25%!

[@daniel-vq2rh]

Good balance see's classes, and their respective performance scale equally with skill. Spy is just another example of developers developing upwards, rather than from a perspective of higher-tier play. Take HL spy for example: A "good play" is killing any of the other 8 classes and instantly dying afterwards (as expected), as anyone else's life is more valuable to the win than that of your own. But the key here isn't in life priority, it's in the fact that near-guaranteed instantaneous death is *expected*, and this doesn't proportionally scale the better you are. The current state of "sneaking" simply doesn't take into account how perceptive competent players are, and doesn't allow for any substantial increase in winrate the higher your division. Tf2 is a casual game, sure, but the developers have done a decent job with most other classes with performance:skill scaling in higher divisions, sad to see they never even close to touched that of Spy's.

[@melliecolesg231]

Unrelated to the video itself, but ever since I watched your stuff my spy game improved a thousand fold. I've almost completely broken out of the "getting a kill and dying" phase. Today, I got a 6-person chainstab and a matador and somehow got away. I just remembered what you said, and you made me do something I never thought I could do. Thank you.

[@bardofvoid174]

Actually.... I have an idea for a spy sub-class that is semi-inspired by the arsonist class in town of salem The basic concept is that you'd have attach these bombs that replace your knives onto the back of your enemies, one by one (I was thinking a max of about 6 in your "clip", where you'd have to go back to spawn to resupply), and attaching these bombs wouldn't remove your disguise. However, these bombs would be broken either by a teammate noticing one (they'd be somewhat visible) and shooting it, or by the person giving themself self-damage. Or also getting stock uber-charged. And also if *you* die of course. Or also killing the spy removes *all* of them. But essentially the idea is instead of being a pick class, you turn yourself into a high-risk, high-reward simultaneous multi-target remover. So essentially, doing this can cause a temporary, considerable dent to the enemy team's size, in theory enough for them to push in on, or on the other hand, to stop a push in it's tracks. So instead of picking *individual* targets, it's more like you're picking *times* to remove multiple targets (which need considerable work to achieve, the more targets you try to put them on, the more risk you put on yourself that you die and lose all the work you just did, but the more targets you kill in one shot, the larger the dent you make on the enemy team all at once) Anyways, once you've put the bombs on all the enemies you wanted to, you simply taunt to activate all of them at once, and after 1 second, they explode, dealing 100% the target's health in the form of explosive damage. However, if you're killed *anytime* before you taunt and that 1 second after taunting, all your bombs are destroyed and either deal very reduced damage or no damage (if they weren't removed by any other means as well) I was thinking the stock taunt for this weapon would be the schadenfreude hehe

[@kevvy-bobevvy556]

13:17 observer spies: allow us to introduce ourselves in all seriousness though, cloaking, observing, and spamming noisemakers, voice commands, mic, or text chat to drive the enemy team crazy while they try to hunt you down is just so funny to me edit: oh you covered observer later in the video lmfao, i still think its hilarious though

[@notalive5479]

An idea I've had before for changing up Spy is a gun/knife that provides a buff for gun spy at the cost of removing access to your knife. The idea is that the gun/knife picks a random target on the enemy team for you to kill. You can see them through walls and they know they have been marked. Your gun is even more terrible than usual against anyone else, but against your target it is an exceptional weapon that deals high damage, and it shoots faster and reloads near instantly when you are close to your target. The target will be alerted when you get close and can see you even with cloak and disguises, and to boot they have greatly increased damage against you, turning the fight into a very short-lived game of rocket tag. However, upon killing your target, you gain those damage buffs against the entire enemy team for a short time (maybe 10 seconds), and it would make Spy tougher to boot. After the buff wears off, a new target is chosen. It gives revolver's a gimmick, and makes Spy much less versatile at general picks, but once he guns down his target he's suddenly a team killing powerhouse all on his own. His presence also forces his target to drop whatever they're doing in favor of dealing with the Spy, making that player less useful for fights. It's dangerous, but success gives the Spy power they could only dream of otherwise.

[@seilaoque4046]

i think the semi-visibility you get when someone bumps into you while invisible should be removed One of the most frustrating things for me (mainly because I use cloak and dagger) is standing around waiting for the right moment to attack, but then a random scout appears, bumps into me and I take thirty thousand shots in the face In addition to making no sense you become visible just because someone touched you, would make it much easier when you were going to infiltrate the enemy base and at the time of escape And I think spies shouldn't be able to backstab other invisible spies (doesn't need much explanation here right) Also, as other people have said here, it would be interesting if the spy could mimic actions, like scoping as a sniper, drop a fake healing ray like medic,shoot and hit with melee, obviously not doing damage

[@Irish_Enderman]

I've always wanted to become a KZbinr myself (I'm still a bit young to do so tho) and so that intro was very inspiring I love playing spy but oh my god the amount of times I've been _practically breathing down someones neck_ and unable backstab so I don't play him often

[@sambriggs1997]

The challenge of playing spy makes him so fun and rewarding

[@Ph0n3numb3r]

@ 12:00 I believe that spawning "wall hacks" should be as follows: When spawning, there is a 50% (or even less, and allways atleast one teammate if any are alive) chance for each teammate that they have the outline, but not disguised spies. This would make it so that if a spy does not have the outline, there is no reason to suspect them as a spy as it probably just rolled that way. This would still allow players to locate their team and where to go, while allowing spies to stay hidden near spawns. Comparing to a disguised spy not having an outline? Thats almost just as bad as it is an obvious giveaway if you see them. Given though, disguses are only there to fool new players and sentries. Also this is comming from a medic main. I genuinely want all classes to be fun to play, but also fun to play against.

[@bardofvoid174]

I just had the idea- what if spy, instead of having a knife that insta-killed, had an explosive knife/other item that attached to an enemy and that you could choose detonation time on, for when they get near groups of teammates? Or maybe it's something that instead of replacing a knife, replaces the sapper instead (though it could probably have a mechanic where if a teammate is shot with friendly bullets, the bomb will be revealed, and if shot again, the bomb is broken, kinda like a sapper but for players)

[@somerandomnesspoo8467]

Spy and Pyro have the same issue, they don't have a proper role, Pyro can kinda get away being a generalist relying on too many gimmicks but at least he's viable outside of comp, Spy just has the same role as Scout and Sniper with both of their weakness and none of the upsides and then given invisibility. If I had the ability to, I would give Spy a second role apart from diet Sniper/Scout, the ability to track the enemies for your teammates, this can be a tracking dart or a motion sensor detector.

[@Gamer_Horse]

I'd love a sapper that doesn't alert the engineer that it's being sapped, something that silently kills it but lets it stay active? Also dynamite sapper would be cool too. Oh and a throwable sapper!

[@gault6546]

what i hate most about playing spy: enemies randomly turning around when im inches away from stabbing them and allies blowing my cover what i hate most about spy: dead ringer kunai.

[@gwyndolin5485]

I agree with some; disagree with some. Crits should only be removed from primary weapons. Melee is fine; secondaries are mostly fine. A player brave enough to make a last stand with only their melee should be rewarded from time to time. Things like shotguns, pistols, smgs, and bisons should get random crits as well. Remove healing's addition to the crit rate modifier; medics shouldn't be rewarded with max crit chance, just because they were sucking off a damage class.

[@GeZz.]

i don't think spy is weak.. c'mon a class that 1 shot you, with melee... this game that the hitbox of melee are broken... i know sometimes backstabs don't work , but other times the game thinks an arm is the back of the character. even f2p spies can kill 1 , 2 or 3 players. by luck or random crits. and in an experience spy player spy is the most op class, yes. is op but in a really good player like stabby.

[@theeagleunion2949]

An idea I’ve always had in mind is a sapper that can reveal sapped building to your entire team like the spawning wall hacks, could be a potential buff for the red tape ?

[@MoeNinjaCat]

I always thought instead of a knife the spy could get like a tracking dart or a ping to mark targets through walls. The enemy would be unaware of it happening but, their teammates could remove it (or self damage). It would probably be abused by bots or whatever but, I think it could make for a fun Intel gathering subclass for spy.

[@GigioBagigio1]

Oh yeah, pyro is the worst class

[@biblequotesdaily6618]

pyro's my favorite because his primary and secondary weapons have some of the best synergies in the game free crits on a solid projectile on flaming enemies? fun af

[@Moss_Dude]

In my experience playing spy it's more like gaben fell asleep with his face on the "turn off backstabs" button. They just don't happen no matter how directly aligned I am, and that includes the holiday punch and backscatter too.

[@maboi0007]

"The observer spy is not a subclass" I'm ou- "Its an eldritch demon" REAL SHIT

[@firewolf905]

I’m glad you feel like doing more shit. I’d like to witness your journey, so you do you. I’ll be watching

[@Foxysen]

I believe you would enjoy Team Fortress 2 Classic greatly. The game doesn't have many bugs that are listed there, both by not having cosmetics to begin with and also with intentional fixes, such as disguise smoke being removed if you cloak while disguised. There is no team silhouette when freshly spawning. Devs have implemented a base class feature where disguised Spy can walk at his 100% speed by holding Shift button. Spy in TF2C has access to Tranq Gun, that slows down enemies when shot and allows your knife to perform a normal (120dmg) critical hit on them, provided you can hit with flare-gun-like projectile. And there are more new Spy toys to come in the future.

[@peterisawesomeplease]

I like what they did with spy. But they also got rid of too much stuff that makes the game more interesting.