Starfield/Creation Engine Modder's Perspective 2: The Turn Tables

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Enter the Snarkfield: discord.gg/cDzZxSrNJf Thanks for watching everyone, hopefully this is a decent follow up to the last video, it’s by far the largest script I’ve written for a video so it took a while to get together.

[@asscheeks3212]

I know Skyrim mods and animations are amazing and top tier... and you want the same to happen to Starfield...but... what prevent modders from making their own superior games? Like Lethal company was to Roblox? It just sounds like Bethesda are just using talented people for free because these modders are insanely skilled and many games studios need their talent.... then you know, just staying modding a Bethesda game with outdated mechanics.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Well that’s a nice thought but until a superior modding engine is created Starfield’s version of Creation Engine is the best bet. I have issues with Bethesda’s handling of their relationship with the mod community, that’s the entire point of this video. But I highly dislike this apparent desire from some people for the mod community’s talent to just be diffused into game studios for their benefit. Part of what makes modding communities so special is that they aren’t tied down by corporate regulations and an innate need for something to make money. It seems like a lot of people just want modders to spend all their time actually working for game studios or making their own games, when that isn’t necessarily what we want to do. Yes, when you decide to mod a game, you will largely be working for free, and the developers of the game you are modding will benefit off of that work whether you like it or not, that’s kind of just what you’re signing up for. I do it because I know that what I’m contributing to will pay me back with a constant flow of free content for the next decade, and the ability to make my game the way I want it to be.

[@asscheeks3212]

@SarcasticDragonGaming yeah you have a point, but counter point: Bethesda too, is a corporation.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Yeah, of course it is, my point was that the Bethesda modding community is not a corporation, and Bethesda generally places very few restrictions on what it’s allowed to do with their software.

[@asscheeks3212]

@SarcasticDragonGaming true... but for how long? Corpos will always be corpos. At least when you are you own corpo, you make your own rules.

[@RichardBejtlich]

I have zero modding experience prior to SF. I’m learning only because of SF. I’m not alone.

[@jesupdaniel2752]

The most frustrating part for me is still the loading screens and lack of a land based vehicles. With all the customization options for starships I’m amazed there was no vehicle bay or anything like that. It’s also super frustrating seeing a game like No Man’s Sky where you can fly in and out of atmosphere without any loading screens.

[@jesupdaniel2752]

Plus it just feels kinda lifeless. There’s research stations, mining stations, and robotics labs and once you’ve seen one, you’ve basically seen them all. It really makes you not care about exploring which is insane for a Bethesda game

[@SkintSNIPER262]

Well they're making vehicles now. And you are wrong about no loading screens. NMS has loading screens, they're just hidden. You maintain your characters perspective while the game yanks the controls from you during the load screen so you don't crash the game.

[@GetWeakGaming]

New loading screen idea: HOOKUP FAILED!

[@Luther_the_Developer]

Ok Ok Ok NOW WHERE'S PART 3!!! 😄 I've been digging into Starfield recently and theorycrafting what systems level mods could fill in the issues that Starfield has. For example, world density. I have a background in Unreal, so I'm not super familiar with how creation engine does level streaming (if it does it at all, I'm under the impression that havok has shackles on that aspect of the game and it might be tricky to get working), but with good level streaming, dungeons might be able to generate via wfc or whatever algo in real-time. Or perhaps these things generate from a seed that's tied to your player ID. I'm also of the mind that the planet surface gen is lacking because they used a simple perlin to make everything which doesn't allow for cool landforms to generate like rolling hills, mesas, rivers, etc. I'm also chewing on ideas that make New Game plus more dynamic and incentivizing but that's super wip right now. I'm super interested in what a CE modder thinks about the things that could be made that could "fix the game". The quick fixes like interesting consumables, and dynamic jetpack movement and then the long changes like companion expansions, faction overhauls, etc. I'm also interested in your stance on AI expanding on the voice roles for Starfield's NPCs. How much of that is too much? And general takes from a CE modder like are there any concepts you're worried about? Whether that be from a modding/maintenance standpoint, or a general scene standpoint?

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Creation Engine has some degree of level streaming capabilities, in Fallout 4 for instance, there are numerous instances of elevators that take you from an interior to exterior cell without an actual “loading screen” being triggered, perhaps that could be adapted to allow semi-seamless atmospheric entry, but I don’t want to speculate too much without having the tools myself, and Skyrim, my main area of expertise, absolutely does not have that feature, so I’m quite unfamiliar with it and how extensive it is. Overall I just feel very confident that most issues with the game will either be entirely addressable or at least improved to the point that it will be easy to overlook. But I don’t know how extensive the terrain gen system is or anything like that, as it’s very different from how it works in any previous Bethesda game due to the procedural nature of it, we’ll just have to see. The smaller things you’ve mentioned, many of them are already fixable or greatly improvable by mods, and we don’t even have the actual tool. As for the whole AI thing, my stance is that when AI voices are being used, they should, if at all possible, be randomly generated and not based on any real actor’s voice, however I generally consider things like dialogue expansions for vanilla characters to be exceptions. Other than that, human VA is always preferred of course, but I absolutely will take AI voice acting over no voice acting. That said, I don’t speak for anyone but myself, and opinion on that topic can vary greatly between modders. My main concern right now is simply how long Bethesda is taking to make the tools public. Skyrim and Fallout 4’s mod scenes are doing generally really good right now, both of them seem to have benefited from the Fallout TV show’s success to some degree, as both Nexus’s have been significantly more active than usual since it came out. Fallout 4’s numbers, particularly in both player count and number of mods uploaded are quite staggering right now, though Skyrim still wins in regards to the latter. Sans the disruption from the Next Gen update, they’re in a really good position. Starfield is the only one I’m really concerned about, and only because we still don’t have the tools.

[@Luther_the_Developer]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming Rumor has it the toolkit went into private testing these past few months. Super excited to crack the game open and see how far we can bend it. Even more excited to see stuff that I'd think would be improbable or impossible lol. Good point with the Fallout 4 Elevators. I'll take a look and see what I can juice from that 🤗

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Yeah, they confirmed in their May update that the update that went out in February was Creation Kit, so that’s good at least. I am still excited, and I know we will see things that many of us might think aren’t feasible right now, especially on PC, Skyrim is an absolute wonderland of marvels like Open Animation Replacer, Precision, and True Directional Movement. Starfield could still end up the same way if Bethesda rolls this out correctly.

[@jazzochannel]

Sorry if it seems like i'm bashing you or your opinion, i'm just very disappointed with BGS since Oblivion and Skyrim. If you're having fun playing and modding their games, knock yourself out! I played Skyrim like 800 hours and spent like 400 hours making some mods for it in 2012, I know it can be fun.

[@jazzochannel]

Skyrim is 12 years old! I played Morrowind for the first time when I was about 14. Did I go back to play the older games? No. Did I mod Skyrim? Yes. The kids and teens of today will definitely be interested in tweaking and modding Starfield. Stating anything else is just ludicrous. The "important" things like SKSE will come too because those guys (hackers) do it for the challenge and accolades of the achievement.

[@jazzochannel]

4:35 thanks for the spoiler warning. I'm firmly set on waiting at least a year before playing this game.

[@iskabin]

What do you think about those articles with modders interviews that are leaving the game because in their opinion it's not worth it modding it? Specially the guys behind the main multiplayer mod

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Like I said, no one who was serious about modding it is giving up. If you’re not even going to wait to see what Bethesda has to offer for official mod support and your willingness to do so is entirely dependent on the quality of the base game, then I would argue you were never very serious about it. There won’t be another space game that’s this moddable, not for a long time or maybe ever, so if you need it to be perfect before you’re willing to work with it, I don’t think you’re that serious about it. As for the multiplayer mod, I need to do more research, but if these are the original Skyrim Together guys we’re talking about, I don’t much care. The people who originally pioneered that mod were, at one point, pulling in something like $15,000 a month on Patreon, specifically for their work on a Skyrim multiplayer mod back around 2018, and then had the balls to say they didn’t owe anyone anything and threatened to keep the mod private. I’m typically of the mind that modders can do whatever they want with their work, but not when you’re pulling in that kind of money, specifically for the thing you’re saying you don’t owe anyone.

[@tincano-beans2114]

Why bother asking him? His last video was just him taking loads to the face from the creation engine 😂.

[@ElDubsNZ]

And we still don't have Creation Kit 2.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Yep… it’s pretty rough.

[@ltodom5884]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming we do now :D

[@Ozziemick]

Hey I was wondering if you can just create One Moon to replace the two moons in Skyrim Xbox. I don’t like the two giant moons as they look not real. Just one smaller Earth like moon to replace the two giant ugly moons in Skyrim would be great. There was a mod for it called Arctic Moon but it’s been taken down sadly.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

I’m sorry but I don’t make those anymore, I made dozens back in the day and I’m trying to focus more on other things.

[@Ozziemick]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming ok thanks for letting me know and I wish you best in your new venture

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

I don’t know if it’ll make you like them more, but they’re kinda supposed to be ugly, they’re the split-in-half corpse of a dead god. Mortal eyes are supposedly incapable of comprehending his true form so they just see two large circles. They look like they’re made of rotting flesh because they kind of are.

[@Ozziemick]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming oh ok umm very different and funny. But thanks I do prefer more realistic earth like moons. Thanks again 🙂🙏

[@2Scribble]

9:09 - but... but... mah venator :( xD

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

A Venator would be equally sick

[@jazzochannel]

28:33 "mess of a launch window that this has been" you're speaking as if you're some sort of stakeholder of the company. they don't owe you shit otherwise. where is this sense of entitlement coming from? if you think about it, it could well be that the reason why Bethesda games have been stuck with an old broken engine is _because_ they want to keep backwards compatibility with the _modding community_. the Creation kit has remained more or less the same since since Morrowind (it was called contruction set back then). IMHO it's shit too, but it works. Most people flip out if you even change the UI of a program, like we have seen with MS Office or Windows 7-8-10-11. So keeping the CS the same and even keeping the engine the same is part of that support-modding mindset. They can't/won't do everything we ask them to do for many reasons, and acting as if they "owe" you a release of a the CK with a new game on release date is kind of arrogant. Just saying...

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

You are taking this completely the wrong way. First of all, I paid $100, three months in advance, for a game that is absolutely not what they promised, even if that’s not why I bought it, there is no question that they seriously overreached on pricing, they also played up their preparation for mod support long before launch, and much of what they promised remains unfulfilled, and that’s despite the fact that the mod community is what is ultimately going to make their game successful, don’t you sit here and tell me I’m not allowed to state what I expect. There is no entitlement. I am just stating the conditions that need to exist for me to return to my previous stance on them, there’s no need to be a pretentious prick because you don’t like the way I state my opinion, if that’s all you’re here to do, just shut up and leave. The fact of the matter is they sold me this game on promises of mod support, I and thousands of other people who directly benefit Bethesda absolutely are owed something that they have not delivered.

[@jazzochannel]

I might have taken your opinion wrong, especially since watching the first part of this video and realizing where you're coming from. I didn't say you can't hold your opinions or even express them, what I said was it sounds preachy/entitled. I wasn't following any of the media prior to release of this game, except the interview with Tod on the Lex Friedman podcast. That is to say you may have a point if they were promising a moddable game, I'm not sure. Btw I still have not bought the game and I think pre-ordering games is a massive mistake on your end as a consumer. Never give money for a product that you can't verify is up to your standards. But now I'm preaching@@SarcasticDragonGaming

[@Crese1947]

The only mod I don't see happening is vehicle mods. The only good vehicle mods that were made were on FNV which had a different engine than FO3 and up. Every vehicle mod on FO4 is a moving static object with no physics pretty much. Maybe it's just because there's no real desire or need to make a functioning vehicle mod, but I think it's an engine limitation.

[@Crese1947]

Yeah, looked it up and the only reason FNV got such high quality car mods was because the Gamebryo engine supported car physics. The creation kit does not unfortunately. Hopefully they have it somewhat supported for Starfield, but highly doubt it

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Gamebryo is the precursor and basis of Creation Engine. They function very similarly on a foundational level. I don’t suspect ground vehicles will be an issue. They got spaceflight pretty okay, there’s no reason to think that couldn’t be adapted to work with a surface vehicle. I actually think they will be included in the first expansion, similar to how horse mounted combat came with Dawnguard.

[@Crese1947]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming Yeah, but the Gamebryo engine they used as a basis has a physics base for cars but default, they didn't include it any other game because they don't use ground vehicles. And It's definitely possible they might add ground vehicles with a dlc, but that in of itself is such a scummy thing to do.

[@proxy2149]

How can a company recognize that modders are a good thing, a necessity, because if you do that, it's like saying, 'Yes, our game is bad, and we plan for modders to fix it

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

The implication being made here, that only bad games are worth modding, is completely ridiculous. I guess someone better tell CDPR they’re admitting Witcher 3 is bad when they release their mod kit.

[@skyriminspace]

People don't mod bad or broken games. They may tweak or fix things which are broken within the game, but that's not the same thing.

[@crackheadjonezzz]

22:01 - it takes them at least 4-6 months to release CK, always has done, be patient. It's in it's beta testing phase for verified creators at the moment.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

I’m aware it has always taken them that long and I was quite clear in the video about why I don’t believe that’s acceptable this time. The entire extra year they had notwithstanding, given their increasing reliance on their mod community, I would expect the effort they put into supporting that community to increase at the same rate, but it categorically has not, modders are quite clearly still an afterthought. It isn’t just me being impatient, it was a tremendous wasted opportunity. Starfield’s modding scene had the strongest start of just about any game we’ve ever seen, if Bethesda had been prepared with SOMETHING at launch, the game’s trajectory would be totally different. But no, instead we’re sitting here, coming up on 6 months again, and at this stage the mod community is barely clinging to life, it barely hits 10% of what we saw in September. Yeah it’s gonna come back when CK2 releases, but it’s not going to boom like it could’ve if Bethesda had been ready for what they knew was ultimately going to matter.

[@jugramnord]

​did ya twitter get banned@@SarcasticDragonGaming

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

No, I deleted it, I barely used it to begin with and after the Elon clown show started I didn’t see any reason to keep it around. Honestly, when I deleted it, I assumed the site would’ve gone under by now.

[@jugramnord]

@@SarcasticDragonGaming appreciate ur fallout 4 loading screens mod 😽

[@tincano-beans2114]

The modding community won't die since it's the same people who have been modding for bethesda for a decade. The modding scene will pick up new people, but the core is the veterans. This is their identity at this point. We can see it in this very vid. You get personally insulted at the idea of starfield going the way of the dodo 😂. The cult has staying power at this point. It's a never changing comfort obsession at this point.

[@SarcasticDragonGaming]

Literally everything you’ve said has been either unsubstantiated bullshit, stuff I already addressed, or just a straight up fabrication. All you can do is regurgitate popular sentiment and hurl insults that probably reflect you more than anyone you direct them at. I was not “personally insulted” towards anyone but Bethesda in this video, so I don’t know what that means, and that was the only thing you’ve said across all four of your comments that wasn’t either something I addressed directly in this video, or an insult.