From Disorder to Disruption - The New World (Dis)Order EP4 - with Alex Stubb

[@paulforbes1217]

Your channel is an important global resource. Keep up the good work. We in the US need to hear perspectives like yours. The West cannot otherwise survive.

[@miikapaananen1363]

Alexander Stubb: wise, clear, concise lecturer

[@addisonsteiner6473]

Excellent insights, thank you.

[@ruralofficeworkspace4769]

Today I have been following American election results in Ohio, Virginia, and Kentucky. And I cannot help segueing into your lecture. I, once again, have named the next 10 years as "Sort It Out". I hope this movement from Disorder to Disruption becomes the affirmation of what the American Founding Fathers envisioned for humanity: "Responsible Behavior."

[@TomSmith-nx3hx]

"My grand parents got it right, unfortunately...". I feel like that is the key quote from this lecture. Thank you so much for sharing.

[@frankshifreen]

Great video Alex! Ukraine has effected a pivot by the West- a defining moment for Finland and the world

[@marcoaraujo4771]

I just want to say that I really appreciate the content of this channel. I would like to propose to Mr Stubb a topic that is increasingly worrying me, and which has become worse with the recent Hamas vs Israel conflict. Specifically, the EU's immigration policy. Within me there is a growing feeling that this policy has failed completely, both for the host countries and for the people who, for the most part, are looking for better living conditions for themselves and their families. As Europeans we tend to see the world through our lenses of openness, democracy and tolerance as if these were universal values. It is with concern that I see the demonstrations in support of terrorist groups and the drive to impose a religiously/radically inspired law. At the same time, support for radical far-right parties is on the rise in our countries in response to growing fear. Wherever I look, I don't see a bright future for me and my children. Mr Stubb, has multiculturalism failed? And if so, what concerted path should the EU take? Best regards

[@guntermoser5879]

Thank you very much the great content you are always delivering. It's very nice to see the good lightnig, perfect exposure and great sound quality again. Makes it so much better to "consume ", at least for me.

[@justinkinkade2063]

What a great quote from the Indian premier. Really provides perspective

[@texasjack]

Very much appreciate your measured thoughtful approach to this issue. I look forward to your thoughts as things progress.

[@Karkkuss]

Another amazing video. Emphasizing the different mindset of the global south is so important, so missing from western narratives. If you had millions of views we’d be in a very different western community.

[@puffyelvis5895]

I hope you publish an audio book version and read it yourself. You have a great scholarly voice!

[@bron-sconcess.10]

Who knew Finland had a Diamond? The Finns of course! Really informative following Alex Stubb, who's knowledge is global.

[@raintamer8121]

Bravo!!!

[@anonnimus]

Just a quick recommendation for those following this channel to read the current issue of Foreign Affairs (Nov/Dec) . It contains a very good article by Jake Sullivan (US National Security Advisor) on "The Sources of American Power". It's a bit uneven in parts and slightly outdated as it seems to have been written prior to the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel. I don't agree with everything Mr Sullivan wrote, however it provides some interesting historical and current affairs insights. Definitely worth a read in the context of the current series and the book Mr Stubb is working on.

[@tomek5513.]

Excellent

[@ernest1520]

Great video Alex, as always. When can we expect your book to be available to buy?

[@p0pka_enota]

It was very upsetting to hear or read reactions to the war from global south/east countries. For instance India, that cheers for russia. Turns out they see russia as a rival to UK and US and thus whoever challenges their former metropole is a good guy. And it doesn't matter that Ukraine doesn't have much to do with UK or US, Ukraine isn't even an official member of western alliances like NATO or EU. Ukraine doesn't have an imperial past. So if we exclude all other factors except empathy on personal level, I'd expect India to be a leader in supporting Ukraine. Since India has the most famous colonial history and in this war an empire tries to reconquer their former colony in a very very brutal way. But turns out that personal empathy isn't such a big factor in people decisions.

[@lostlegend9015]

i) My ancestors were the one who suffered colonization, I didn't. Secondly, Indian history depends on who is telling it. The one which the world knows is just one part of it. You are asking me to relate to something which neither my parents nor I suffered. Sure, my grandparents did suffered. But they born at a time when they were still small children when India got independence. ii) India don't see Russia as rival to USA or UK. India sees Russia as a reliable partner. However, Russia does offer a backup against USA. Plus, it's Veto in UN and it's military equipment. But the more closer Russia gets closer to China, the more India would get closer to USA. As Russia becomes from reliable to not a reliable partner for India. iii) You are expecting personal empathy from the people of India. We don't have any. Because, we have a per capita income of $2700 dollars with lots of people struggling for daily need. I doubt an average people in India would care what is happening in Ukraine or what is Ukraine. In order to have a personal empathy they have know what is happening in Ukraine as 50% of Indian don't even have access to internet. I doubt they even want to listen to any reason from the Govt. of India for supporting Ukraine when it puts them at a loss.

[@p0pka_enota]

​@@lostlegend9015 You're right, empathy is out of context if people are lacking basic things. And your arguments are logical, I do understand them. Cannot say I like all of them, but I understand. I'd just highlight 1 thing. You called russia a reliable partner. And I strongly believe they are not. Yes, I'm biased. But be aware, there's many incidents when they turned on their partners and you need to keep it in mind when you have business with them. I won't go far into history, but the most recent one is with Israel. Israel was always building good relations with russia. Especially govt of Netanyahu. Unlike many others, they didn't support military, financial or humanitarian aid for Ukraine, nor the sanctions. Specifically to maintain good relations with russia. And when Hamas attacked, russia ditched Israel, meets Hamas, makes deals with Iran. And now Israelis are furious about russia. I cannot tell you 'don't have business with russia', I just wanna warn you, be very cautious with them.

[@Heardbydeaf]

@@lostlegend9015 and that's why wars in the world will never end. I do not blame India for not supporting Ukraine - but on a human level - if India is friend with terrorist r.SS.a - who have leveled cities, raped/deported children, woman for almost 2 years now...then that will be remembered. Same way India is remembering colonisation, And that's how the cycle of war and "this is not my problem" will go on forever... So sad that we have to live in the world like this...

[@markobajt9261]

With Orban´s Hungary and now Fico´s Slovakia we could argue that Putin has partially succeeded in trying to split the EU and NATO.

[@wamingo]

Too much dirty russian money in the world. Hopefully it won't be worth much for much longer.

[@miikapaananen1363]

Russians are clever in their information war with the rest of the world

[@HoseTheBeast]

Well yes you could say that the divide is more clear than before even if the rest of EU is more united than before 2022.

[@newdawnrising8110]

This is an important work that you are doing Alex. Pls offer solutions for action and not just describe a train wreck. The UN needs to be called for an Emergency counsel to vote whether it’s time for the UN to come together for reform. We have to find solutions to neutralize all this conflict before it all goes too far. The price of non action could Mean the end of the modern world. We need a new UN Alex. A global federation of sovereign states. The UN should have a new digital currency made off the idea of credit not debt. Each country can trade in this international digital currency but at home have their own national monetary system. The new federation can draw its operations funds from spending taxes that can double in luxury items and carbon mistakes. This new UN will need a military drawn from representing populations and what their countries bring to the table. This UN will Need teeth. The first order of government will be to outlaw all the nukes. Then we have the power to collect these humanity ending instruments of apocalypse. Let’s not let it come to that Alex one way or another we have to find a way to work together or our kids have no future worth living.

[@rictechow231]

Alex, could tell us when we can buy your book and who is the publisher?

[@42ish32]

I think, economic interdependence between the European states is not enough to prevent war. One could argue that before WW1 Europe also had reached a high level of interdependence and that didn't prevent WW1. Thus I would argue, a second pillar is intertwining the societies, which is freedom of movement. Remove the barriers between the peoples. Between the European states and Russia, the interdependence was only economic. Of course, between Ukraine and Russia there was much more interconnection. But there the argument could be that since the war from Russia's point of view is framed as "we have to liberate Ukraine from the evil west" these connections probably serve more as amplifier than inhibitor.

[@beverleywilson4091]

Given the (new) disorder, is there any point in continuing with the United Nations? If yes, should Russia and China be allowed veto power on the Security Council?

[@christophercole8877]

We need to tell the global South why Russia must lose. Among other reasons, Putin wants climate change, which will be disastrous for the global South. I’ve been trying but don’t have a good platform.

[@tekannon7803]

Professor Stubb, you say that the Ukraine war against Russia has caused us to have a new era, would this name be a good one for what we are living today: Post Tipping-Point Era?

[@ohrosberg]

I have a question. You described the start of the war in Ukraine as the "tipping point", and you don't really expand on that. Finland lost territory to Russia, where your parents were from, you had the Russian invasion of Crimea, and other Imperialist moves by Russia in the past. Yet, Finland never considered joining NATO before this war. Add to this, the Baltic states were NATO members already, and we all know the necessity of that. So, why was this different, What exactly in your mind clicked and connected that early morning when the war started to realise that Finland had no other choice than to join NATO? I mean, in discussions with Finnish people in the past they have always said, well you know, the Finnish nature and the difficult terrain makes it impossible for Russia to attack us, and that seems to have been a prevalent thought until the war in Ukraine. So, what exactly changed in this conflict to make you immediately understand that NATO membership was a must and not an option?

[@LowenKM]

Excellent question! And perhaps on a related note, how, if any, will NATO membership change Finland's broader relationship to Europe?

[@TheHollowGram]

Google Finlandisation. Finland has chosen to be a strategically neutral neighbor until this strategy was no longer tenable - the realization that concessions and neutrality can’t sufficiently placate an adversary like Russia and that it was time to take a stand. Thankfully Sanna Marin and the gov was prepared for the massive work that took. NATO is the only line Russia hasn’t crossed.

[@ohrosberg]

@@TheHollowGram I know this, of course. Alex has talked about it before, and I've followed Finland for decades. My question was not about that. Alex described that he instantly understood that a Finnish NATO membership was not optional anymore, it was a must, and I was curious as to why this happened in an instant realisation when he learned that Russia had invaded Ukraine, and not in previous instances of Russian imperialism. What clicked in his brain? That's what I'm curious about...

[@brucemcmanaman5364]

Sudden, unexpected, invasion of Ukraine by Ru provided the trigger to choose alignment with western military, and it's nuclear weapons threat.

[@ademarmackenzie183]

Over the past year, the most devastating wars have been caused by the West - from Iraq and Yemen to Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and beyond. Throughout these conflicts and invasions, I haven't seen you question the idea of global order. The concept of global order only seems to be raised now when Russia, from the Global East, invades Ukraine. When America and its allies invaded other countries, there was little discussion about global order. While it's important to have a world-based order, it must be applied universally. The ongoing war in Palestine, where millions are suffering, highlights the need to address situations where certain nations may not adhere to the global order.

[@anonnimus]

I'm not sure you can blame the West for Afghanistan. If I recall correctly it was the West that funded the Taliban in order to free Afghanistan from Russian occupation. Then they fell into chaos and allowed a Saudi backed extremist to use their country as a home base, from which they attacked the United States. Did the US overreact? Yes probably. Did they bite off more than they could chew.? Yes, most definitely. Is nation building a stupid idea? Absolutely! Yemen? Please explain Yemen. If you're talking about weapons transfers to Saudi Arabia, there's certainly ethical lapses there, but I'm not sure I understand how The West *caused* that war. Iraq? Well Ronald Reagan was selling weapons to Sadam Hussein, to fight Iran and protect the oil fields. Then Sadam decided to invade Kuwait. ( More oil) That seemed like a bad idea. So defending Kuwait seems consistent with defending intentionally recognized borders. ( with a side of self interest) now Iraq II well that one's questionable. Why did Bush Jr. Think there were chemical weapons in Iraq? Did he make that up, or did Sadam want the West to think he had them as a deterrent? Didn't the UN sanction that action? Syria? Wasn't Assad killing his own people with Russia's help? Maybe also threatening Turkey? Should the US have not interfered in genocide against the Kurds? Is the West arrogant and perhaps overestimating its ability as a hegemonic power? Most likely. Does it generally have good intentions? That's what we tell ourselves. There is lots to be learned in forming rules based order. But is it better to try or to live by the laws of the Jungle as Xi and Putin would prefer?

[@Raypoota]

It is End of History, and the Last Man Standing.🎉

[@azhanali1448]

I wish Putin will call Alex Stubb to interview him so that he could give him insight.

[@JoanneLeon]

I thought the countries who were hawkish and fearful of Russian aggression were wrong too. Thought it was an understandable result of trauma. But it turns out they were right.

[@christiansmith-of7dt]

I feel ugly

[@kirannnnnn]

Regardless of whatever change is happening in rest of the world , European public always lives in 1990's mindset some even lives in 1945 post world war mindset. I often see dialouges from Europe they are also unable to grasp that the world order lives in 2023 not 1945 or USSR fallout.

[@eskokauppila1327]

"...Firenzen EU:nmaisemansuunnittelu ei näytä lupaavalta

[@rogerdiogo6893]

The world enter a dangerous *precedent* when terrorists were considered people and human...

[@collintrytsman3353]

Russia the last European colonial empire............................when will it evolve and develop beyond 1880-1914 colonial era mentality!!!

[@aaron2709]

You said the global 'South' was neutral and rather detached from the Russian-Ukrainian war but the 'South' would determine if world power shifts from West to East. This strikes me as a contradictory statement. How is the 'South' simultaneously disengaged from this war AND guiding where global authority resides? What am I missing?

[@aaron2709]

That doesn't make sense. @@arisnotheles

[@inderpalsingh713]

Are you sure that west was united? I mean Germany was made silent and not to complain but still Hungary complained about it

[@andrewrosser8909]

I think you are actually a little naive re Chinas ambitions. It seeks to leverage every advantage it can. Especially with the disingenuous “peace” attempts…which you should be able to see through tbh

[@jenina-t1p]

This escalation could have been stopped in the first two weeks, and the initiative for peace talks was first made by China, but the United States denied this.

[@bcanuck]

Peace talks are always available for two parties involved, Putin and Zelensky. This has nothing to do with China or the US wanting peace talks. China has done nothing but spout truisms without substance.

[@thomasjgallagher924]

Mr Stubb, when the conversation turns to the global south, your take on the Russian invasion of Ukraine (both former SSRs) shifts from one of atrocities done unto Ukraine to one of "Western" foreign policy. What happens to Ukrainian agency, what happens to the war crimes, why does this become "Europe's" problem in the mind of the Indian FM? Why is the global south absolved of the moral and ethical standards we so often hear them bemoaning? Ukraine was never a colonial power, never imperial, never invaded anyone. The global south is apparently willing to make of Ukraine what they resent most about how they've been treated. For this reason I quite seriously doubt they'll become a meaningful factor in the next several decades as there is no commonality but rather a dominant every-man-for-himself position. Ask yourself what does India stand for, or South Africa, or Brasil. Ask any patriot from those countries and all you get is the predictable oration of a people with a long-standing inferiority complex looking to be respected and told they're just as good as their former imperialists. It won't be a comment on what India, South Africa, or Brazil can do for their neighbours or world.

[@eskokauppila1327]

sauvakävely oli hyvä ele:" seuraavaksi nojautuminen uudestisyntymiseen kremlin kanssa petturi natoallien sijasta=tasapaino mielenterveys

[@pavelzhuk543]

It seems that during Putin's reign, European politicians did not know who they were dealing with and what to expect from him. Nothing had changed in Putin's foreign policy for twenty years, and Europe and the United States turned a blind eye and continued to conduct economic affairs. However, after the war started, they made a surprised look and started canceling out ordinary Russian people. Politics is a complicated and hypocritical thing, I want to encourage all people to stay human no matter how hard it is, peace 🌍🙏

[@maxmeier8784]

Everyone has its own centered point of view. Not only europe but also india or africa. Africa sided with actual colonial and imperial powers. thats their decision. But that way they lost their innocence and made themselves complices. Thats no neutrality in a matter that very much defines the identity of african nations itself. the "heritage" of imperialism. Nevermore will I accept moral accuses about the imperial european past from politicians from those countries. being souveran also means being responsible also means loosing moral innocence of a former child.

[@eskokauppila1327]

rahanhimo on kaiken pahan alku ja juuri pienin synti=seksi on suurin synti

[@ricardothompson5697]

I've realized that everything that happening worldwide seemingly blaming Russia😊

[@mistman5640]

This episode is more personal grievances as opposed to actual analysis. Please rename this book European Disorder. This has more to do with mindless European foreign policy than world problems. I recommend getting a co-author that actually lives and understands the rest of the world .

[@blafonovision4342]

I hope we will see the USA withdraw from global affairs. That is the best thing that can happen for everybody.

[@nunyabusiness863]

This is understandable but the question then remains who would fill in the vacuum? Of course the us isn't a total altruist, and there is us hypocrisy and double standards but despite its egregious errors, the only reason the middle east, eastern europe, and the far east haven't erupted in a worse powder keg is due to the presence of us intelligence and us military might. Otherwise iran wouldn't back proxies but would openly attack jordan, iraq(payback for sadam) the Saudis, cause the destruction of Israel, and fund further terrorism in Europe and the us. China would consume the SEANs, and Russia would consume ukraine at a minimum. Mind you, many of these are nuclear capable nations. Africa and South america aren't in good shape but it is largely kinetic, small arms violence that is contained.

[@blafonovision4342]

@@nunyabusiness863 the USA should just abandon the Middle East. There is nothing there anymore for us. I would hope for *nobody* to take the place of the USA globally, and that we end globalism and replace it with regionalism, with the USA providing security in the Western Hemisphere only. The rest of the world can just do what it wants.

[@Heardbydeaf]

So that China+ terrorist r.SS.a could take over? Are you serious? How old are you? If you are one of those USA is the only problem in the world...uhh...Please, try to make little bit more sense.

[@grahamcroston]

​@@blafonovision4342I suspect a world without American involvement would be a far uglier place. Without Western pressure some hideous regimes would have a freer hand. Abandoning the rest of the world to the cruelty of despots seems wrong to me.

[@matpk]

Why anglophone countries so bad at building high speed rail❓❓

[@menyo2874]

As someone from the US... oil money lobbying and car centric designs. The cost of buidling high speed rails are expensive, and oil money would love to prevent that. Eventually we will get there. It will take time.

[@ericgardiner7715]

I don't think Russia was really "interdependent" with the EU at all. If it was, then sanctions would have actually had a tangible effect.

[@anonnimus]

Instead of re-investing oil and gas profits into his own country, Putin built up a war chest. He built up a stash of foreign currency and eliminated the Russia's debt load. He offered Europe cheep gas to create an economic dependency. Obviously Germany took this bait hook, line and sinker. The amount of Russian Oligarch's cash in European Banks is estimated at about $200 Billon. Putin has been playing a long game. However I don't think we can blame Putin specifically for everything. Russia's aspirations to empire precede the formation of the USSR. They simply entered a different phase after 1990. Beginning with Chechnya's independence movement, Russia has been trying to keep it's empire together for the last 30 years. Russia's invasion of Ukraine could be seen through the lens of "Reunification." Which is why, China's aspirations to "Reunify" with Taiwan must be stopped in their tracks. (For historical precedent see Tibet circa 1950's, the Korean War, and Vietnamese War, Cambodia, etc. Also more recently, East and South China Sea disputes, and let's not forget, territorial disputes with India.)

[@grahamcroston]

Surely the huge fall in the value of the Ruble shows impact? Not catastrophic but definitely significant and likely to hurt more as time passes.

[@ericgardiner7715]

@@grahamcroston it's true that the Russian economy was weakened, but Russia is able to produce it's own food and it's own energy, being self sufficient in these two fundamental resources means that Russia is more independent than interdependent.

[@grahamcroston]

@@ericgardiner7715 Perhaps that's part of why economic intertwining of the EU with Russia wasn't an adequate restraint. Sanctions have however had a tangible effect on Russia and will continue to do so until they are lifted.

[@Herlando-w7t]

Thanks Alex, it's a nice review and it shows a small degree of dignity that you now acknowledge your too hasty and too impulsive first impressions. Here, your analyzes are not based on your wishful thinking, as before. You are missing some format. Ex. do you make fun of a reference of Lenin, implying that Lenin is so foolish that he cannot be referenced. Lenin was a great thinker of his time, so don't be ashamed to use quotes from him. It shows a lack of format on your part. But it's a good feature today. Try to be a little more objective, not so pretentious. You are hopelessly stuck in the Anglo American psphere, free yourself from it.

[@menyo2874]

So you support quoting Lenin while insulting Alex for having an view in line with the "Anglo American sphere"... are you ruzzian?

[@eugenialkiseleva]

one religion? part of my family in russia is muslim tatar? one language? - russian is the main language, but every region has it is own language. You really have or bad education or speak total untruth about Russia.

[@jeffmanty6721]

I appreciate you saying that Putin isn’t crazy because the west especially America made him out to be that way, not only that the western propaganda wanted the average person to think he is stupid, but in actuality he is very smart and shrewd, but crazy he is not. He is calculating and smart and a bit lucky as Russia has beaten the sanctions and even prospered. I appreciate you but don’t always agree. ☺️

[@jeffmanty6721]

I have to strongly disagree with you that Sergey Lavrov is the laughing stock of the world. I read a lot of news from the eastern world and the south, (I am an American that lives in Zambia Africa) Sergei Lavrov is well respected outside of the western world. He is a diplomat that sees things the way they are and not the way the west wants them to be, Lavrov is a down to earth, common sense type of guy, who is respected by common man.

[@Heardbydeaf]

@@jeffmanty6721 His respected because those countries haven't been yet raped by terrorist r,SS.a - but they will - question of time. And also - money , history and wagner are the magic words that will make most of the south believe that bs...

[@grahamcroston]

Putin's failure to conquer Ukraine shows he's not all that shrewd or smart. The fallen Ruble indicates Russia isn't prospering under sanctions. Russia can survive, if you call a North Korea style of life acceptable for Russians.

[@grahamcroston]

​@@jeffmanty6721Do people really respect such a shameless liar as Lavrov? Doesn't truth still matter ?

[@ianthesiow3013]

America😢😅 calls it "Liberation" instead of "Invasion". That was what US call it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and the list goes on... Why the double standard? Confused... Please enlighten. Genuine question... Instances of the United States "liberated" or overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government) China 1949 to early 1960s Albania 1949-53 East Germany 1950s Iran 1953 * Guatemala 1954 * Costa Rica mid-1950s Syria 1956-7 Egypt 1957 Indonesia 1957-8 British Guiana 1953-64 * Iraq 1963 * North Vietnam 1945-73 Cambodia 1955-70 * Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 * Ecuador 1960-63 * Congo 1960 * France 1965 Brazil 1962-64 * Dominican Republic 1963 * Cuba 1959 to present Bolivia 1964 * Indonesia 1965 * Ghana 1966 * Chile 1964-73 * Greece 1967 * Costa Rica 1970-71 Bolivia 1971 * Australia 1973-75 * Angola 1975, 1980s Zaire 1975 Portugal 1974-76 * Jamaica 1976-80 * Seychelles 1979-81 Chad 1981-82 * Grenada 1983 * South Yemen 1982-84 Suriname 1982-84 Fiji 1987 * Libya 1980s Nicaragua 1981-90 * Panama 1989 * Bulgaria 1990 * Albania 1991 * Iraq 1991 Afghanistan 1980s * Somalia 1993 Yugoslavia 1999-2000 * Ecuador 2000 * Afghanistan 2001 * Venezuela 2002 * Iraq 2003 * Haiti 2004 * Somalia 2007 to present Honduras 2009 * Libya 2011 * Syria 2012 Ukraine 2014 * 2014 - 2022 - 9 countries yet to verify. Pakistan 2022 * Haiti 2022 * Niger 2023

[@menyo2874]

How much do you get paid to be a bot?

[@seppohannunen7020]

would have been a defense neglect, if Russia had not reacted -22. Against the threat of aggressive NATO expansion. -90 ,-00 and -10 , , , NATO expanded. This poses a huge threat to Russia. Why is NATO building attack lanes around Russia??? There is a plan somewhere, , ,

[@Heardbydeaf]

Why terrorist r.SS.a attacked 3 times different free countries around it's borders? Why terrorist r.SS.a took Crimea? And also - NATO did not EXPAND - free countries who had been occupied by terrorist r.SS:A just DID not want to be occupied again. I understand, that you probably have been paid by terrorist r.SS.a to talk that kind of bs...but please - just shut the f up.

[@victimized1]

Has it ever crossed your mind that countries that joined NATO have their own will and freedom of choice? Look at the countries that joined NATO and look at the history of those countries with Russia. If I was a small country located in a close proximity to Russia I would do the same. And I don't need "americans" to push me to do this.

[@seppohannunen7020]

@@victimized1 "Own will"??? USA/NATO agitators, , , as happened in Ukraine in 2015

[@victimized1]

@@seppohannunen7020 Don't tell me what happened in Ukraine, I've been there in the very epicentre myself. Apparently you are so given up on yourself that you can't imagine people and countries having free will. This will not be a productive discussion so I wish you a good day and bye.

[@Heardbydeaf]

@@seppohannunen7020 terrorist r.SS.a's bot - please go away.