Stoicism: how to cope with war, what is a hate speech, and NATO's expanding - Massimo Pigliucci

Massimo Pigliucci is an American biologist and philosopher. He is the author of books on Stoicism, an extremely popular philosophical branch. I asked him about what the stoics think about today's news: the war in Ukraine, and the scandal with the oppositional Russian TV channel in Latvia. Also, we covered how to deal with anger during the war and even the outcome of the FIFA World Cup in Qatar.
00:00 Is the philosophy of stoicism still relevant to people? The Stoics are trying to shift their emotional spectrum. They try to cultivate what they consider to be healthy emotions. Even when anger is justified, if you act on it, you will make mistakes. We are talking about war now, but I also talked a lot about stoicism during the height of the coronavirus pandemic.
08:19 What depends on us and what doesn't? Our own judgments and decisions to act or not to act. Football World Cup: victory depends on many things: from your comrades, from the opponent. The decisions that the player will make at any given moment depend on him. If I live in a country where there is a regime that started a war with which I do not agree, and so on - what should I do? Sometimes the best thing you can do is just walk away and let others know why you did it. But if we start making excuses and saying that nothing will ever change... It's just not true. Modes are changing.
18:28 Stoicism focuses on the individual and their personal choices and actions. There was a real war between Sparta and Athens. Situations have not changed so much, people are still the same. Stoicism is a personal philosophy. Someone decides to start a war, and draws their country into it. Stoicism will tell you: yes, these people attacked your country. But they are still your brothers and sisters. They simply act incorrectly, do not know what they are doing. And so, yes, of course, you have the right to defend yourself. But at the same time, this philosophy reminds us that this has happened before.
26:15 Is patience a real virtue? A distinction must be made between patience and passivity. Stoics are not the ones who are always waiting for something.
29:05 Revenge is often associated with hatred and anger. Anger often turns into hatred, and hatred drives people to revenge. Many people in the world and, of course, in Ukraine would like to see Putin dead. Some Ukrainians wish death on all Russians. Justice, however, requires that the people responsible for the war be brought before an international tribunal, and then suffer the punishment he will appoint. But at the same time, we do not pursue every soldier, they follow orders. Russian soldiers are morally responsible, they are waging a war about which they understand that it is unfair, then they must leave the battlefield.
35:33 An opposition Russian TV channel was closed after one presenter said on the air that he felt sorry for the Russian soldiers. From the point of view of stoicism, this presenter was right: we should feel sorry for the Russian soldiers. It's good to remind yourself that those on the other side are at war, but they are the same people. After the 2001 attacks, Bill Mayer said: It takes courage. He was trying to make a distinction that I think is perfectly valid.
40:50 I support the Ukrainian people, since the beginning of the war I have regularly donated money. I am sure that some of your listeners in Ukraine will be offended by what we are saying. The Stoics remind me that other people's opinions do not depend on me. If you say, "I'm offended," it usually means the end of the dialogue. Words are not bullets. They cannot hurt you. Some people use their resentment as a way to silence others.
48:05 In the US, freedom of speech is an absolute right, but it has never been like that. The border runs through incitement to violence. If we start saying that insults or hate speech should be prohibited in any situation, then a situation may arise where someone will be accused of promoting hatred unfairly. The question is how much you want to restrict freedom of speech, on the one hand, or protect people's freedom, on the other. The US Constitution prohibits freedom of speech only from restrictions imposed by the government. Twitter is not a government, but a private company.
56:27 Is it even possible to remain a good person during the war? To be neutral and this does not concern me, I think, is a bad choice. And this is despite the fact that it is often difficult to formulate the correct opinion. There is no doubt that Russia is the aggressor; therefore, my sympathies should be on the side of Ukraine. But if you expand the scope and begin to take into account the history of interaction between Russia and NATO, this changes the context. This does not justify aggression. But there are historical and cultural reasons that must be taken into account if we are to move forward.

[@annasamodova6291]

Great intervew, thanks! I do admire Mikhail's natural manner of conversation with such a brilliant person. This channel deserves to be much much more popular.

[@axlslak]

Enjoyed the conversation even though I didn't agree with everything that was said. In particular with the expanding of NATO. From my point of view, as a Romanian, we do have the right to self-determination. It's not that NATO stole us. Its that we chose to enter. It wasn't easy for us. Reforms had to be made and sacrifices had to be endured. And I don't think NATO could have said no, because we switch back to that restaurant example, in which if we were to be refused then that's discrimination. I don't think NATO values apply only to Western Europe, and not to Eastern Europe as well.

[@kkpenney444]

It's inexplicable to me that so many people don't understand this regarding so-called NATO expansion. You as a sovereign country have every right to your own guaranteed security. NATO, and in particular the US, is not forcing this on you. It is not they that have the threatening tentacles, but Russia.

[@charlesachilefu]

​@@kkpenney444 🐸

[@vaultsjan]

He not only said he is sorry but wanted to organize to help them

[@mariaconcettamanzi6128]

Exactly. By omitting this information he completely changed the narrative. So the "scandal" was Latvia kicking out tv rain , not tv rain low key supporting "their army".

[@ana_samana]

Наконец нашла Ваш канал без синхронного русского перевода! Огромное спасибо!

[@user-zl1bo5ww3b]

Thank you. It was intresting.

[@thesilkpainter]

I am pleased i found you!

[@northern999]

I really enjoyed the interview with such a wonderful speaker. Thank you so much!

[@wladikpasika8407]

No, journalists from the Rain channel said they had already helped many Russian soldiers, not just feel sorry. Seems like the host said half of true.

[@stevenweiss2575]

Great discussion connecting fundamental philosophical perspectives to actual events including the war and the anger and emotions surrounding it. Still a shame that of all the blogs and channels I follow related to the war that this recieves such little attention?

[@wichniewicz11]

Hi, Thanks for another great interview. I usually do not comment however here I have to. Please pass the message to your interlocutor that if ANY organization is collecting donations for REFUGEE CAMPS IN POLAND they are corrupted. There is NOT a single refugee camp in Poland for Ukrainians and there is not q single plan to build one. So far we managed and we will continue to accommodate our Ukrainians friends as comfortable and cosy as we can, we are, and we will support them with finding jobs, healthcare, schools, nurseries and everything what we do to our own citizens, for as long as they need it. Sorry but spreading fake news is not a good recommendation. Regards

[@nemanja721]

soldier who desert would be probably killed or imprisoned for life. so, it's not about what one can do; no one alone can't do enough. it's about every one try to make every other realise that only together they can make a change.

[@TayaKholodova1984]

Two dudes sit in a comfort of their homes in Germany and US and discuss how people should think and behave in a war zone 🤦‍♀ Correction to Mikhail Zygar: most russians inside or outside Russia do support the war and genocide agains ukrainians. It is sad statistics on the 10th month of the war. Correction to Massimo Pigliucci: NATO expantion is not an excuse to commit genocide. Just stop using the argument, it is simple victimblaming.

[@skye841]

you are right. Russia had an imperial policy for centuries before NATO came to exist. and ruzzkiez supporting the war is a well known fact.

[@stevenweiss2575]

Mikhail is not simply sitting comfortably in his home, he is a refugee who must fear, for an indeterminate future, must fear returning to his home. Concerning this last point, it is the opinion of the guest that there are other historical issues at play, but neither he nor Mikhail claim that there is any justification for the brutal invasion and continued aggression of the Russian forces.

[@okarakoo]

Largely agree but with imho the wording "NATO expansion" seem to imply that there's a nefarious plan or design (by the archenemies US, of course) to gain terrain and influence. It's rather free states and democracies that apply for membership (and there's a waiting list too) because, well, they are terrified by the alternative, i.e. to fall under Russian's sphere of influence

[@6Diego1Diego9]

This is an antidote for the Lex Friedman grift

[@kagranzh7573]

I think networks are public place like restaurant

[@potter275]

Here in the USA they are not public. The airwaves are public. Broadcast channels use the public airwaves but are private companies.. Cable channels are not public, we have to subscribe. Restaurants are different- open to the public.

[@mariakiska]

Ok

[@jansherman7629]

P r o m o s m

[@lydia2494]

You actually made a huge mistake mentioning Dozd scandal. The reporter was sharing the news about how they are helping their soldiers with the equipment for war zone!!! They were working in Latvia, the country which was occupied for years by Russia. What they were doing was at least amoral and totally sick having in mind you're actually helping the army who is killing innocent civilians and is on the attacker side!

[@charlesachilefu]

Selective memory works for hypocrites. Don't ask me to explain. Read your history or don't

[@lydia2494]

@@charlesachilefu describing yourself? Congrats your brain actually is not even on

[@irabogush]

As for me, the question concerning Дождь, was not about filing sorry for russian soldiers (literally for their deaths). He (the news host) was regretting about their health, because they could be cold in Ukraine to kill and rape Ukrainian civilians🤦‍♀️. It’s nonsense. It’s awful occupation 🤬. It’s not a question of humanity. It’s seems like taking care of killers before they go to kill instead of stop them in any way, at least by shouting and asking to there relatives… Дождь has gone mad🥲