Storm Tips - Understanding Ball Layouts

[@nicktohzyu]

my left ear enjoyed this video very much

[@TraumaER]

+nicktohzyu HAHA!!

[@ChvyKc00]

+nicktohzyu Ha, I was wondering why there was no sound. I only keep my right earbud in while at work...

[@KDog410]

hahahahhahahahaha i heard the storm on the right and it scared the shit out of me

[@chunkymunkey9182]

until the storm at the end lol

[@Sproutt]

I think my ear is swelling up

[@captainricco2777]

Hey Steve, you would think, as executive of Storm, the powers that be would give you better audio for their most important sales video. I can see that's already been said, so, thank you for pointing out the PBA layout and especially the league preferred layout. I will make sure to get it done right next time. I now have 12 balls to my arsenal and they all have waaaaaay too much hook and break too early. I must speed up to 18mph to get it in there just right. I need a slow break to cover the left quadrant without having to stand in the next lane.

[@MusicalProf]

CG actually does matter actually. It's where everything is in balance. The further to the left, right, up or down the CG is, the more imbalances you create in the static weight of the bowling ball, which does affect ball motion even if it's not a lot. In fact, there is a restrictive limit of 1 ounce in any direction up, down, right or left on the bowling ball.

[@stormbowling]

Your PAP is the same on every ball. Your release determines the PAP, not where you drill the ball. Your PAP is measured on the initial oil ring. If you are releasing the ball the same, your PAP is a constant regardless of the ball.

[@robtr3]

I seem to remember 3-3/8" away and either on the PAP or 6-3/4" (effectively on the track) being the answer for max and min, respectively, but that's from the same source and era as the bowtie rule I asked about so I'm hoping Steve Kloempken will answer to remove the lingering doubt.

[@kenrule4922]

we can use a demo day from Storm in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs!!

[@mikesimonsen694]

Thanks for the response! My pro mentioned my PAP to me but I didn't get it lol. I cant seem to understand how my PAP for the ball he measured, will be essentially the same for the balls he drills for me. Wont the PAP be determined by where the grip is drilled? or is the grip location determined by my PAP? Would my PAP be the same on everyball? doesnt each ball react differently? Any other PAP related vids you could recommend to me for better understanding of its importance and relevance? Thanks

[@markcorreale8495]

Good knowledge!

[@MCELVAINE6996]

I use storm/Roto Grip and my question is what layout can I use on gutter to gutter flat patterns? (left-handed Bowlers)

[@kyletuttle6179]

What pin length is best for a pin down layout?

[@edhouse1951]

Steve, i stopped bowling several years ago 12+ , getting back into the sport, would you know a ball driller who's knowledge is a step above. i'm in Northern Calif traveling wouldn't be a problem to the right proshop. i'm a former part-time tour player along with regionals, just wanted to bowl again. thx Ed

[@NFLisbeast]

ok here's a dumb question, what if you roll more-or-less straight, meaning I have essentially no spin or curve? Do I need to be concerned with the layout of the ball, or should I just get one that is the ideal weight and holes?

[@alexmerel9924]

Andrew Walter no you don't

[@kaseyowens3065]

If you don't throw the ball with any revs just get a white dot or similar plastic ball and have them drill you a ball that fits you. It will most certainly have the same results as any other ball for you, and it will be much more affordable. As far as the layout goes, I believe with most of those balls they are drilled to a layout that is referred to as "label". id reccomend this, as its simple, and most pro shop guys should understand what you mean. back in the "brunswick black beauty" days the common drilling layout was strattling the label of the ball, and I believe this is where the term comes from.

[@trueblu8]

Would be nice to know why league bowlers go with that layout versus the layout that the pro's use and what are the advantages to each one.

[@spotticusmax]

The lane length, oil pattern / saturation, the bowl line pattern, etc. all come into play. Furthermore, that's a generic description. Don't think for a moment that the pro's don't have hidden secrets, just as every ball does. I have a motiv covert revolt, and after playin in house conditions (2 handed bowler) the suggested 4x4x2 is TOO aggressive, even when lanes are freshly oiled. Even 1 handed it's too bold. Where as a different core and finish will react completely differently.

[@11nuffsaid]

[@marcushogan1798]

Nick Long 4x4x2 is completely uncontrollable unless you have a ton of speed, or no hand. Try same layout with the pin above the middle finger. Really flattens out the reaction without having to make hand adjustments.

[@alexmerel9924]

Vince H because leauge bowling is on recreational patterns with oil in the middle of the lane and free hook or friction to the outside portion of the lane.so you want an aggressive drilling so when you throw the ball across the oil to the dry the ball is responsive and when you get it in the oil and miss inside your target the ball still picks up and gets thru the pins.on tour there is no recreational patterns so there is no free hook to the right so you want balls that will retain energy for the back end of the lane.tour guys play the lane front to back as leauge bowlers play the lane from side to side

[@ThomasakaDes]

Don't have a Storm PS here :P (Norway)

[@gouthammeruva]

How would you know your PAP without throwing the ball at least once? How would you throw the ball without having the ball already drilled? Isn't there a chicken-egg paradigm here?

[@jamesm8360]

To find pap start with a spare ball or low hook entry ball. SpaRe ball can be drilled straight up, throw it on lanes and after warming up wipe oil of ball, throw it again, bring into pro shop and you will have your pap, for your next ball to be drilled. Your spare ball can remain the same as its a spare ball, lol.....made to go straight, drilled to go straight.......good bowling.

[@bowlingforum]

CG does not matter and will not affect ball motion.

[@shadisho2000]

how could this information be usefule for me ? i can get used to my ball and know where i have to throw every time !! + whats that 4th whole in the ball XD (newbie)

[@fatboymig1]

Let me guess... your mad because you need lane bumpers to brake a 100?

[@cybersteel8]

fatboymig1 not sure if he's mad but you sound like an idiot using the word "brake" instead of "break" so maybe you should just look in the mirror before you criticize others

[@fatboymig1]

+Psymen Looks like you are a bit upset yourself. Was it the bumpers? Ahh I get it! You won't need them one day, I promise. Now grab your 10# plastic ball and fuck off.

[@pokemon989359]

+fatboymig1 Oh please. Half the bowlers who hate on newbies online are little THB's who can't punctuate a sentence correctly. They also tend to use basic sequential arsenals and have a hard time understanding front to back lane play strategies. Then there are Super THB's who have never even touched an abralon pad a day in their lives. Don't speak from some elitist point of view until you're actually competing at a level worth talking about. I'm a collegiate bowler, and I don't consider that a level worth acting from that worth talking about. Bear in mind here that I'm not trying to bash anyone. I'm just trying to elucidate the reality that anyone with a bit more knowledge can browbeat someone who knows less, but it's far from helpful, much less fruitful.

[@mqbitsko25]

Hint: Once you've been caught misspelling a word that's your cute to bow out of the argument, troll.

[@jollyrogerhobbies2386]

Well, this was clear as mud...……...

[@jvmiller1995]

To bad they did away with balance holes. They was a good way to tune a ball if the drill did not preform the way you like. Now you have to plug and start over or just get another ball. I have had a couple balls I added a balance hole to later.

[@Mista808]

I hate how secretive in depth information seems to be when it comes to bowling. I average a 206 in leagues and I'm looking to take my skill to the next level but in order to do that I need to be more involved with the entire process aside from just rolling the ball down the lane. I was hoping he would break down HOW one comes up with these layouts/measurements etc. in order to help us decide what our next balls layout should be. But of course he only broke this down for people who are already 100% aware of the process.

[@Joey_Westside]

Would have liked to have seen you explain the difference in ball motion in asymmetrical core layouts and symmetrical so that people don't get confused based on the layout numbers provided in the video...but very informative for those looking for a little clarification. Enjoying the videos so far!

[@apster07]

what does ANY OF THIS MEAN....!?

[@philperry3639]

High performance balls have a weight block in the center of the ball, The numbers this guy is talking about effects the position of the weight block at release. You can alter ball motion by changing the weight block position. A good ball driller understands these numbers and can use them to match the ball reaction to how you throw the ball and/or to drill a ball to give you a ball motion you are seeking.

[@Capris9x]

I honestly have no clue what this video is talking about... Please elaborate in more logical detail...

[@AaronMal1978]

Is this different than the dual angle layout method? Or...is it just a different method to achieve the same results (different datum points)

[@johnrocksvold9105]

I just took a class to learn how to drill balls and I find your video interesting... However, you explained how adjust the distance for Pin to PAP affects the balls motion and the Pin to Val, but PSA to PAP is a little cloudy to me... does shortening the distance bring the migration path toward the fingers or thumb? And when does it migrate toward center?

[@Denali_Rebel]

I hate that storm canned this ball. Best ball they have ever made hands down.

[@stormbowling]

Thank you for the comment and we definitely understand your concerns. You are 100% correct and our warranty/drill guides do state that if the pin falls within 1” of any hole that it either needs to be drilled out or placed 1” away from any hole. The difference is this video was intended to explain “layouts” and the most common layout used today is the 4x4x2. The pap for this particular bowler and layout did place the pin within 1” of the hole…

[@brandongoodman4116]

What if you throw 18 14 mph 16 weight blocks

[@samuellau2087]

I still don't get the PSA to PAP part... How does it control migration path?

[@robtr3]

1.) How exactly does pin placement in relation to the PAP impact track flare? What two extremes would achieve minimum/maximum track flare? 2.) Re track migration path, does the general rule from long ago about drawing a line from PAP through the pin and expecting the track to bowtie on that line still hold true or is that theory at all related to the concept of migration path (which I admit I have a hard time wrapping my head around)? Thanks!

[@TechyMedic28]

OMG IVE GONE DEAF IN MY RIGHT EAR! Oh wait...

[@mikesimonsen694]

I still cant figure out how one can find a PAP on a particular ball if you have never rolled it. Any help?

[@AaronMal1978]

If you don't have an existing ball drilled for you, your pro shop probably has demo balls that the pro shop operator can get your PAP and other characteristics off of. It might not be perfect because it's not custom fitted to you, but it should get you in the ballpark.

[@stormbowling]

A great choice would be a Storm IQ Tour. Very controllable.

[@joelsampang5894]

Nice entry level ball. I have one in my bag and use it when the lanes transition. I also did well with it in the 2017 TAT

[@scottcooper9089]

either my headphones are broken or the L and R are echoing each other.

[@RebelKicks-mn4kc]

Pin to PAP I understand, PSA to PAP I completely get, but Pin to VAL? How do you find that measurement? Pin to VAL could literally be any measurement from what it looks like to me

[@harley196946]

What layout be good for me I have low revs on ball , ball speed 10.1 or higher. I got the Phase 3 the pin above my index finger....It hooking way too much I dont have the revs and speed.

[@M1Anut]

After about 30 games the "out of the box" characteristics of whatever ball you have are GONE. I have a Crux Prime and out of the box it was almost magic. If I was a couple boards off my mark it seemed to still find the pocket. After about 30 games the ball was oil saturated and no amount of cleanding and reconditoning has brought it back to the "out of the box" state. I am now 'fighting' with the ball to get it to do what I want. I am a novice so I have alot of learning to do. It's frustrating to say the least.

[@stormbowling]

You can get your positive axis point from any ball you have used. It is measured from your initial oil ring or lining up your track in a ball spinner. Do you have a pro shop professional who can help you?

[@jeffreyhandley92]

I use a 4x4x2 on a freakn frantic makes the ball pretty aggressive. if you cant throw the ball 16-19 mph i would go with a less aggressive layout for sure. And it depends how many revs you get also and your axis tilt.

[@marcushogan1798]

Best layout for this ball s pin-cg-psa in line through center of grip. Max length with flip determined by hand position.

[@superhashi]

hello, i am having the same problem as mike up there. i am tryiing to buy my first bowling ball "hyroad" but my problem is that there is no pro shop where i live. there is a guy who drills the balls however you want. and thats it so i need to find out where to put my pin, and what that might mean to my bowling. please help!!!

[@kaseyowens3065]

Buy your bowling ball online and make the trip to a certified pro shop, or better yet just get your ball from the pro shop guy, and support his buisness! Any pro shop worth its salt will have hy-roads in stock. having your ball drilled without the pro shop guy knowing your PAP and properly measuring your hand will almost always end up with you fighting your bowling ball. You can't outbowl a bad fit and you can't out bowl bad ball reaction. It will be well worth your trip to go meet with someone in person. Another pro tip, once you do meet with someone and get your hand properly measured, get a copy of your specs and keep it for later. This way any pro shop will be able to drill you a ball with your correct measurements.

[@stormbowling]

Good question. Be sure to check out our Lightning Strikes drilling guide for the step by step instruction.. go to our website and click on marketing and then drill specs. But you do indeed need to know your PAP before laying out a ball. You then follow the steps in the layout guide to position the pin and PSA in the proper positions. Good luck!

[@TraumaER]

*One of the best videos ever on layouts. Most of my balls are 4x4x2. My pin over fingers balls are for drier lanes.*

[@mattyg3535]

Do you realize, that by your own rules, both those balls have a voided warrantee? How ridiculous is it that you cannot drill within 1" of the pin or 1" of the marked M.B.? That leaves almost every layout without a warrantee. Thanks for the demo but can you do another video and explain how drilling within 1" of those points makes your equipment fail?

[@geoffnash3098]

my opinion would be are the heads dry? Also whats the ball doing in the backend? your right this can be a very technical game and some study and talking with your pro shop operator can be good knowledge. my driller says to me lets try this or see how that works first. have a open mind

[@nickchesla5327]

Ok I am new to all this, so this might be a stupid question, but would my PAP be the same on every ball i throw?

[@stormbowling]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5rGd4OEl5WMftk

[@SneakySteevy]

So the answer is yes. How can you use PAP on a new bowling ball that does not have holes in it to throw few shots? Thats the part I dont understand.

[@tylerstine784]

2hands Bowling Junky so you take this layout for example and your pap and measure backwards to mark the center of your grip if your 5x1/2up for instance once you lay your measurements out you measure 5 inches opposite for me being a right hander I would measure 5 inches left and 1/2 inch down to find the center of my grip it's hard to grasp for a while but do it a couple times you'll get the hang of it I use the dual angle layout method but was looking into what this layout entails

[@ryanphipps4554]

As long as your release is the same with every ball you throw then yes

[@chunkymunkey9182]

@@SneakySteevy correct me if im wrong, but maybe it could be based on the oil pattern on a ball that you used that could determine the PAP for the undrilled ball. Im not an expert on the PAP and all that, but thats what an owner of a bowling establishment did for me. It seemed to help my average (195 at the time). That was almost 20 years ago, so maybe things have changed i guess lol.

[@johnnyfrench2869]

Think everyone forgot about the thing called accuracy and consistency. Not everybody is "equal"

[@NeeseTV]

I just throw the ball and adjust to what i want it to do..... but this is good as well

[@Joey_Westside]

CG nomaddah! There have been a lot of tests, and it's the general consensus amongst the knowledgeable in the industry that, no, CG does not matter and will not affect ball motion.

[@SlickThaRuler911]

Threw it at a Ball Demo today.... AMAZING

[@Beny19471]

Very interesting.Thanks for sharing that information. When placing pin 4 inches from Pap, how is it done? The distance is measure from the pin or you have to know the distance of the Pap. Iam sort of confuse on Pin to Pap distance. I thank you in advance

[@Akropolist]

VVV yeah man VVVVV, re-encode this video in stereo. other than that great informational video!

[@hutchinsonhoesly754]

what about symmetrical, not asymmetrical.

[@GearWave]

knowing your bowling balls and layouts are critical to your success!.....

[@garywayne123]

still a better story than twilight

[@gallios3315]

What layout would someone recommend for a female. collegiate bowler, right handed, I would consider myself a power stroker ( not sure if that is a thing) and I throw the ball about 15 mph.

[@alexmerel9924]

GalliosMC you question is way too open ended.needs tons more details.pap probably bowling on on sport patterns,rev rate,axis rotation,axis tilt , ball speed, lots of info needed

[@Srblues1]

How about some Dual Angle Layout terminology or conversion at the very least.

[@stormbowling]

Storm Lucid™ - Coverstock - ERG™ Pearl Reactive - Weight Block - M.A.D.™ Core - Surface - 4000 Grit Abralon™ - Diff. - 0.050

[@BeerBoy246]

i personally think it smells like fruity pebbles, but great ball though

[@LuchoVena]

Im trying to understand I see that you can gather this info from a current ball and from that transfer that info to a newer ball (same setup) but what if you didnt have a ball to gather this information? what if the ball you use to measure the PAP has a setup where the pin is different location then no longer is a 4x4x2 and because that wasnt your ball maybe that setup is wrong from the beginning in order to drill your own ball? Like I can see the PAP is relative to you and your throw, so if I throw a ball with my finger measurements and get the PAP, I cna say I want it in that setup? but then goes again the above question because the pin on the thrown test ball is different than what you want/need?

[@subibowler]

LuchoVena Come on over to Bowlingchat.net. There is a wealth of knowledge and information available to anyone that wants to know more, particularly about your pap (positive axis point) and how it is important to know before drilling a ball up.

[@popnfresh959]

My left ear loved this video

[@nordattack]

Wow, audio on left channel only, how can we trust you Storm if you can't even get a damn youtube video right?

[@onemoremisfit]

No, don't trust them, this is proof they want you to lose.

[@nordattack]

@@onemoremisfit Lol

[@topcat42]

Can some one tell me where to find these yellow layot pencils they use to lay out a bowling ball? I cant find one that works.

[@Dos124]

+Thomas White Look up chinagraph pencils

[@tRickBeee]

Steve's not here, man

[@YellowApe97]

my right ear really hates this video.

[@TinaShay]

WWG1WGA

[@thomaspoor8849]

What is a migration path?

[@SuperBorg1]

audio is on left channel only!

[@nocarey]

cg no maddah

[@olleeuren2]

Lucid?`what?..

[@TinaShay]

And now bowling is a high school sport!

[@fishgutz4272]

Many schools in my area have bowling as a gym class. They set a minimum ball weight for girls at 9 pounds, and boys at 10. That way they get at least some workout. 😉😎

[@ryanrieger6252]

Is a 4x4x2 a good layout for a two handed bowler like me that throws between 11-12 mph

[@7up1255]

i would not recomend it. try to go for something less agressive. but that really depends on you ball as well. Sooooooo yea

[@LegendaryGarageYT]

im 2 handed with a 225 avg in a house shot league for layout you want something thats less aggressive due to the high amount of rev rate that all two handers do it can work but you would really have to get that speed up to 16-19mph for it to work

[@emeralddragon2010]

+Legendary504 bowl like a normal person. two handed should be an illegal shot

[@joelsampang5894]

Can you please show me the rule that says, throwing with 2 hands is illegal? Then I will believe you.

[@joeyzelnut5619]

Is the PBA layout he showed an aggressive layout?

[@homegrilladvantage]

Looks like that layout is drilled to give a slightly stronger midlane read and smoother transition on the back end for a more predictable motion...as you become more consistent, you want equipment that is more predictable

[@cleswag2419]

Not as much as the 4x4x2

[@y00s33f]

same as mine lol

[@DrEaMxBoI]

Quick question.. Does the CG affect layout?

[@dejabowler873]

As of 8/1/2020 no

[@mel6815]

Holy shit this is complicated..

[@alexmerel9924]

Me L it's really not that bad... you have to understand what is trying to be accomplished.esrlier motion which would be called a slow response layout meaning when the ball sees friction it doesn't jerk or Yank off the dry.conversley a ball that skids thru the front and responds quickly to friction it the dry portion of the lane would be a quick response layout.always remember that number one factor in ball motion is surface texture.where the ball meets the lane surface

[@lonestarpatriot876]

This is interesting, however, I think the science behind bowling get's much too complicated at times and I often wonder if it is overblown. Bowling is about consistency and making adjustments as you go because the variables are always changing. If making adjustments as you play is always being done, why can't a bowler simply adjust to the way their ball is drilled? IMHO they can.

[@DowntownCanon]

It's not a replacement for fundamentals. It's for people whose game is grounded and want to take advantage of the different ball reaction that the layouts give. It's like a NASCAR driver who has his car fine tuned for different track conditions. It doesn't relieve him of having to make any of his own physical adjustments.

[@lonestarpatriot876]

It is completely different than NASCAR. I can take any one of the balls I own and bowl on any lane condition with good results. I can do so because I am in tune to how each of those balls reacts to different lane conditions and adjust my game accordingly. For example, I can take my heavy oil ball at 800 grit and still use it on drier lanes by adjusting what I do. I don't need a different drilling pattern in order to take that ball onto lighter oiled lanes. I do think the science of bowling is overblown at times.

[@alexmerel9924]

Travis Kibel you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. I guarantee you that you don't even know what sport compliant oil patterns are.does a golfer have one five iron to play the course or does he have different clubs with different pitches and possibly different grips. you have no idea at all what bowling is about.

[@lonestarpatriot876]

Alex Merel I actually do know about the different oil patterns as well as the different oils used. I am not saying there is no science to it, simply that it is much too overblown. Your comparing it to golf is a bit off as well but I won't even go into that.

[@alexmerel9924]

My man I have bowled PBA regionals and have a coach Richard Shockley that opened up the kegel training center. I have had extensive conversations with mo pinel ,Randy Stoughton, Chris Barnes, Norm Duke,bill hall,del Ballard jr.antonio Medina.believe me please . You have no idea

[@subzero2827]

I ordered the storm code black in the ball they sent me has the pin only 2" away from the grid but i want my ball drilled pin up and my proshop told they can only drill it pin down i'm just wondering why that is

[@nickjouki59]

subzero2827 if they drill it pin up the center grip or cg will get drilled through making the bill illegal to use in sanctioned bowling events or leagues

[@randysumners4021]

It wouldn't necessarily be illegal...but they are right not to recommend it. Depending on your track and pap a 2 inch pin ball drilled pin up would be very weak. The further the cg is from the pin the more flare potential the ball has. It also depends on how much top weight the ball has and how much side weight after drilling. I'd you want one drilled pin up...more long and flippy...get a ball with a 4 inch pin

[@yuppiehi]

In short, you don't just put your finger holes on just any spot on the bowling ball. The way you roll the ball determines where to drill the holes. The ring around the ball where the ball touches the lane is considered the track area, and you can usually find the track area by rolling a ball, and then see where the oil off the lane forms on the ball. The holes are then drilled based on the track area. That is as simple as it gets!

[@Jin_Jon]

but how do you know how you roll the ball without drilling holes first? This makes me super confused

[@chunkymunkey9182]

@@Jin_Jon Any ball you use will have an oil ring pattern. That oil pattern determines how you roll your ball, and will determine how your undrilled ball will be drilled.

[@kaseyowens3065]

@@chunkymunkey9182 so even if you pick up a house ball and toss it you will still have the same ball track and PAP as if you were thrpwing a fitted ball? I don't think thats true. When I throw a house ball it comes off my hand like a retarded UFO... When I throw a fitted ball I get a much different effect, because I can keep my hand behind and inside the ball better. That is a real stumper for me as well. How do you find your PAP if you don't have a fitted ball yet?!?!?!

[@NipkowDisk]

I'd like to see how 99.5% of the bowlers nowadays would do if they had to use a hard rubber ball with a pancake weight block... sadly, I think the uber-high tech in the equipment today has taken a fair amount of skill and fun out of the sport... just my opinion.

[@imccubbin1]

Not really I would say. I started bowling back in 1981 when I bought my bowling balls from K-mart. Theses were hard rubber balls like you described. Watching pro bowling from back then I do remember people throwing a lot straighter shots with less hook. I bowl with a straighter style now and maintain an average of 199 but use hi tech balls. The hi tech balls give me more hook than I have had in the past and I have seen an increase in my average. The aggressive balls of now do seem to produce higher scoring but they have compensated for this in the sport. To compensate for more aggressive balls, you see harder and harder to master oil patterns. I have bowled in tournaments that use PBA pro oil patterns and my average in those tournaments is about 30 pins less than my league average. I'd understand if there were significantly more pros bowlers than in the past but you don't see this. Having a hi tech ball doesn't help you on harder oil patterns.

[@roggie2499]

If you're a house bowler, yes. I agree there. If you're bowling on sport/PBA patterns, then I'd disagree.

[@TheGomGomBoyThaiConsoleGamer]

roggie2499 belmo wheeled plastic on 1 lane to win his first title and recently mike fagan used plastic on toc qualify but loss lol

[@roggie2499]

The GomGomBoy - Thai Console Gamer I'm talking regular bowlers, not the PBA guys. But some of those PBA patterns are very light on oil.

[@johnz581]

+NipkowDisk I am not a great bowler, I started bowling again (after 25 years absence) just over one year ago... I average around 185 in my league and 200 in practice. With that said, I still use a old Brunswick Black Beauty for my spare ball. It does hook, not a lot, but it does a little. I have done it in the past, I generally suffer about 10 to 20 points per game. I have used my old circa 1989 AMF Corbra Urethane with the pin on the bottom with reasonable results, Using that ball I score about 10 pins worse than with a newer ball on average. Now with that said I have had several 9 to 11 strike games that would have never happened with the old Black Beauty or with the old Cobra.

[@epiphoney]

Flare has nothing to do with hook.